AJ McCarron

[Mark O]

1 hour ago, Nero said:

I think that the problem with McCarron, as with any other backup, is that he can produce some highlights simply because of the surprise factor. There's many backups who come out and play well to then start failing miserably once they become starters.

 

For example....see Hogan, Kevin 2017 season Cleveland Browns.

[Westside Steve]

16 minutes ago, Mark O said:

For example....see Hogan, Kevin 2017 season Cleveland Browns.

Unfortunately true.

WSS

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

I'm by no means a DeShone Kizer fanf but for God's sake boys what kind of receiving corp does the kid have to work with? And what would makes you guys think that AJ McCarron is the second coming of Steve Young? Unless, and this is a shaky guess, Hue Jackson knows more about him than we do....

WSS

Yeah Steve outside of a couple flashes, our wrs are a bunch of doo-doo. That doesn't excuse Kizer continuing to throw the ball 8' over their heads when they are open. Especially throwing to his right. Or make horrible decisions in the Red Zone. His ability to toss an accurate fade in the end zone is virtually nil.

I'm not going to requote Jiggins, but he about exactly nails my opinions. The attempted McCarron trade is a tacit admission by all concerned that they massively screwed up on Kizer. They just won't admit it. Hue does know more about AJ, but after RG III and Kessler would you trust his acumen evaluating QBs? I don't. The Bengals backup QB is better than anything we've got (sad) and we're willing to grossly ovepay for a marginal talent (a 3rd was the most I'd have offered) in an attempt to win a game.

[Westside Steve]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

Yeah Steve outside of a couple flashes, our wrs are a bunch of doo-doo. That doesn't excuse Kizer continuing to throw the ball 8' over their heads when they are open. Especially throwing to his right. Or make horrible decisions in the Red Zone. His ability to toss an accurate fade in the end zone is virtually nil.

I'm not going to requote Jiggins, but he about exactly nails my opinions. The attempted McCarron trade is a tacit admission by all concerned that they massively screwed up on Kizer. They just won't admit it. Hue does know more about AJ, but after RG III and Kessler would you trust his acumen evaluating QBs? I don't. The Bengals backup QB is better than anything we've got (sad) and we're willing to grossly ovepay for a marginal talent (a 3rd was the most I'd have offered) in an attempt to win a game.

Well I'm not sure. If Hue Jackson was the driving force behind RG3 it didn't seem like a bad idea to me if his head was on straight which it seems like it was. Bad luck. We also don't know if the coach was the guy behind Cody Kessler. If we had Tour here he'd say that it's all done behind the curtains by people at Witness Protection. 

But I don't really want a retread or an unproven backup as much as I want a top draft pick.

WSS

[D Bone]

6 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Define 1-23.

The Process 

[Westside Steve]

2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Well I'm not sure. If Hue Jackson was the driving force behind RG3 it didn't seem like a bad idea to me if his head was on straight which it seems like it was. Bad luck. We also don't know if the coach was the guy behind Cody Kessler. If we had Tour here he'd say that it's all done behind the curtains by people at Witness Protection. 

But I don't really want a retread or an unproven backup as much as I want a top draft pick.

WSS

Maybe a retread to help Mentor the new kid like the guy we just pissed away. But not a retread who is hostile to the draft pick and wants to be the starter. Like Hoyer.

WSS

[wargograw]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:19 AM, stillmotion said:

You don't know if Jimmy will add someone to make football decisions. It would be a very smart move. If you think Sashi is better at picking talent then any football guys then you're absolutely clueless and need to get his finger out of your mouth.

We have football guys in our draft department. It is the people who genuinely think we have a front office full of math nerds and former baseballers doing everything that are clueless. That is the most ignorant thing you can say. But thank you for proving the depth of your knowledge of our FO.

[Dutch Oven]

14 minutes ago, wargograw said:

We have football guys in our draft department. It is the people who genuinely think we have a front office full of math nerds and former baseballers doing everything that are clueless. That is the most ignorant thing you can say. But thank you for proving the depth of your knowledge of our FO.

It honestly doesn't matter what type of guys the Browns have running this organization.

They could be good ol' boys who have played football since they were 5 years old and think light beer and soccer are communist plots against this country, or guys who wear pocket protectors, weigh 135 lbs and drink wine coolers.

The only thing that matters is results. Are the people in charge competent in hiring quality coaches and have the ability to draft and sign quality players? Who they are and how they do it does not matter.

All that being said, I have no problem with people questioning the competency of this front office to hire good coaches and supply them with good players. Those are valid questions.

[TexasAg1969]

4 hours ago, wargograw said:

We have football guys in our draft department. It is the people who genuinely think we have a front office full of math nerds and former baseballers doing everything that are clueless. That is the most ignorant thing you can say. But thank you for proving the depth of your knowledge of our FO.

It would be nice to know who exactly are the football guys behind the scenes. Anyone know?

[stillmotion]

9 hours ago, wargograw said:

We have football guys in our draft department. It is the people who genuinely think we have a front office full of math nerds and former baseballers doing everything that are clueless. That is the most ignorant thing you can say. But thank you for proving the depth of your knowledge of our FO.

Well, I'm pretty sure Shannon Sharpe and Herm Edwards said that Sashi and Depo were clueless because of lack of experience. I agree with them, and you don't. Neither opinions are "ignorant" and you don't have to throw names just because you don't agree with my opinion. You should at least hear out someone's full argument without telling them to "shutup" calling them ignorant, clueless, or generalizing them. Criticism is a part of doing the job. If YOU have a job, you're evaluated and analyzed to make sure you're doing a good job. Apparently according to you, we just need to shutup, and not evaluate or analyze anything Sashi does. Jimmy shouldn't either. He should just keep this FO and coaching staff together another year without making one change.  If they finish 0-16 this year, and go 0-16 next year, and Hue and Sashi are 1-47 together, then I guess maybe we should finally start to analyze, evaluate, or have constructive criticism against their decisions. But till then, you're saying we should fully bet on Sashi gambling, because he knows best without someone who actually knows how to evaluate a quarterback here. And TexasAG is correct, name the reputable "football guys" we have on the team.

[Nero]

2 hours ago, stillmotion said:

Well, I'm pretty sure Shannon Sharpe and Herm Edwards said that Sashi and Depo were clueless because of lack of experience. I agree with them, and you don't. Neither opinions are "ignorant" and you don't have to throw names just because you don't agree with my opinion. You should at least hear out someone's full argument without telling them to "shutup" calling them ignorant, clueless, or generalizing them. Criticism is a part of doing the job. If YOU have a job, you're evaluated and analyzed to make sure you're doing a good job. Apparently according to you, we just need to shutup, and not evaluate or analyze anything Sashi does. Jimmy shouldn't either. He should just keep this FO and coaching staff together another year without making one change.  If they finish 0-16 this year, and go 0-16 next year, and Hue and Sashi are 1-47 together, then I guess maybe we should finally start to analyze, evaluate, or have constructive criticism against their decisions. But till then, you're saying we should fully bet on Sashi gambling, because he knows best without someone who actually knows how to evaluate a quarterback here. And TexasAG is correct, name the reputable "football guys" we have on the team.

War, I'm up for believeing the plan still has viability, and there's still an opportunity for turning things around, and in a process where you tear down an entire team and begin constructing it from 0, you'd say that it is logical to have a 1-15 season. Okay. 

But in a process where you start building from 0, after two offseason where you could use two drafts and free agencies, if you are in midseason 0-8, and you have a 80% of the fans not believeing that you can't pull out even 4 wins in the next coming 8 games (see the You Decide Week 10 thread), well, by the looks we're not getting so much better (at least in the wins' number, which evaluates teams in every sport), or not as better as ANYONE, even this FO, would expect.

Therefore, some criticism will come, as everyone expects in one of the most popular sports in the world. Everyone is in the spotlight. And if the public face, the head of the so called process which is performing worse than anyone expected, are people whose major achievements have been reached in fields not related to the sport they are currently in, well, there's that to doubt about. 

First thing everyone looks when someone is underperforming in his job is look if he has the qualification to do that job. And the info that arrives to us is I believe a very low percentage of the work that takes place in the facility, both coaching and FO, so we don't know who is really taking the decisions, or at least we can't know which is the entire protocol that is followed to take a decision (they are asked to do their job, not to explain every aspect of it), so there are three options.

1. There's well prepared staff, with a huge football background and experience, but they have failed in some key decisions that the FO heads have to cope with.

2. There's well prepared staff, with a huge football background and experience, which are not listened by Sashi in the decision-making. 

3. There's bad prepared staff.

Someone must be responsible. You don't go 1-23 just by bad luck.

 

[Dutch Oven]

I don't understand why the Browns would have to "tear this thing down and start again" if this front office and coaching staff was fired.

I know this is crazy, but perhaps a new front office could look at what is here and just add good players to it. It's not like the players brought in were drafted to play in some exotic offensive or defensive system, so they should be flexible to whatever coaching staff comes in.

[Unsympathetic]

47 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I know this is crazy, but perhaps a new front office could look at what is here and just add good players to it

Define good.

Define the scheme by which you're going to evaluate the current players.

News flash:   Whatever you come up with, at best it's 2-5% different than what is currently being used.  There is nothing magical.

 

It seems you desperately want everything to be about One Magical Person.  Show your proof that's possible.

I've linked to proof that every team uses analytics and consensus decision-making.. but you have consistently not responded to those at all.

[Unsympathetic]

6 hours ago, Nero said:

there are three options.

1. There's well prepared staff, with a huge football background and experience, but they have failed in some key decisions that the FO heads have to cope with.

2. There's well prepared staff, with a huge football background and experience, which are not listened by Sashi in the decision-making. 

3. There's bad prepared staff.

Someone must be responsible. You don't go 1-23 just by bad luck.

This entire post assumes

1) a person is responsible. Wrong.  I've linked to proof that the NFL doesn't function this way.. it's ALL consensus decision-making.

2) There is a sequence of decisions that, had a different conclusion been made, endless riches would result. Wrong. The team sucks - get over it.

 

We had a team run by football guys making football decisions for decades.. and the people already fired from the FO and coaching staff are responsible.  Your lack of understanding of how awful "football decisions" are is the thing creating an unrealistic expectation of winning immediately... and then measuring the current staff against your unrealistic expectation.

 

"Football Decisions" - of course, are bad decisions.  It's nothing more than a term invented to cover up a lack of actual knowledge.

[gumby73]

We have 22 pro scouts.Directed by 13 player personal executives in suits.The Core group is Deblow,SB,Berry,Kovash,Grigson & Opara than Coaches..Head of College Scouting-Bobby Vega. His position imo has gotten liquefied due to the SB trading OUT of supposed real talent? Head of Pro Scouting-Dan Saganey-Hit on McCourtny,Treggs,Kasen? but a complete wiff on Kenny Britt..The choice of wording the FO as a "Consensus Group decisions" is a attorney group cover up word that no one person gets the blame.The 2nd hand core players are already in place(not by our choice) A play-makers draft could still happen with right where we sit in first 2 rounds. I just can't count on a bean counter & contract manager to pull it off..Anybody got the feeling that Peyton Manning will be con-sensually naming our QB pick threw SB's lips?

[Dutch Oven]

13 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Define good.

Define the scheme by which you're going to evaluate the current players.

News flash:   Whatever you come up with, at best it's 2-5% different than what is currently being used.  There is nothing magical.

 

It seems you desperately want everything to be about One Magical Person.  Show your proof that's possible.

I've linked to proof that every team uses analytics and consensus decision-making.. but you have consistently not responded to those at all.

Considering that I haven't been beating the "fire everyone" drum on here, I'm not sure how I was supposed to consistently respond to something I'm not really involved with.

And your first half of your post is just agreeing with exactly what I wrote.

News flash: I think you are confusing me with someone else

 

[Unsympathetic]

12 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

 but a complete wiff on Kenny Britt..The choice of wording the FO as a "Consensus Group decisions" is a attorney group cover up word that no one person gets the blame.

1) No FO exists that didn't have a positive grade on Britt.

2) What's the cover-up? No one person gets the blame........... because NO ONE PERSON MAKES THE DECISION.

That's the entire point - there is no one person making any decision in any NFL FO.

That model of organization does not exist in the NFL.

 

 

If one person isn't responsible.. and every organization is behind every team's every move.. and every team uses analytics to rank players both in draft and FA.. then most of the gnashing of teeth in this thread is a waste of time because there isn't "just one immediate fix to make" after which wins will inevitably result magically.

[mjp28]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

I don't understand why the Browns would have to "tear this thing down and start again" if this front office and coaching staff was fired.

I know this is crazy, but perhaps a new front office could look at what is here and just add good players to it. It's not like the players brought in were drafted to play in some exotic offensive or defensive system, so they should be flexible to whatever coaching staff comes in.

Think about this do you all believe in the old adage that "success breeds success and failure breeds failure"? I think that's what is going on now since 1999 and apparently is in a death spiral now getting exponentially WORSE!

What free agents would choose to come to the BROWNS unless their careers were shot and they just need a paycheck. 

Long term solution(s) - good luck with that.

[TexasAg1969]

15 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

1) No FO exists that didn't have a positive grade on Britt.

2) What's the cover-up? No one person gets the blame........... because NO ONE PERSON MAKES THE DECISION.

That's the entire point - there is no one person making any decision in any NFL FO.

That model of organization does not exist in the NFL.

 

 

If one person isn't responsible.. and every organization is behind every team's every move.. and every team uses analytics to rank players both in draft and FA.. then most of the gnashing of teeth in this thread is a waste of time because there isn't "just one immediate fix to make" after which wins will inevitably result magically.

So no one is responsible if your team sucks donkey dicks. Therefore continue to suck donkey dicks. Sounds reasonable to me.

I'm sure my grandkids would love this theory of responsibility when it comes to cleaning up the toy room they messed up in a consensus effort.

[gumby73]

5 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

1) No FO exists that didn't have a positive grade on Britt.   OFF THE FIELD!! SURLY SOME TEAMS DID THEIR WORK>>                                                                2) What's the cover-up? No one person gets the blame........... because NO ONE PERSON MAKES THE DECISION. BECAUSE MOST HAVE A ATTORNEY BACKGROUND & 2 SIDES TO A MOUTH>> 

That's the entire point - there is no one person making any decision in any NFL FO. THAN FIX THE PLAN.The Group & THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT IT

That model of organization does not exist PHILLY,HOUSTON,RAMS,OAKLAND..MUST BE DOING IT RIGHT..JAGS ONLY NEEDED COUGHLIN,NEY?

The stud finder was not needed..We needed a QB with a GM with a play maker plan group brought in here.   

[Nero]

17 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

This entire post assumes

1) a person is responsible. Wrong.  I've linked to proof that the NFL doesn't function this way.. it's ALL consensus decision-making.

2) There is a sequence of decisions that, had a different conclusion been made, endless riches would result. Wrong. The team sucks - get over it.

 

We had a team run by football guys making football decisions for decades.. and the people already fired from the FO and coaching staff are responsible.  Your lack of understanding of how awful "football decisions" are is the thing creating an unrealistic expectation of winning immediately... and then measuring the current staff against your unrealistic expectation.

 

"Football Decisions" - of course, are bad decisions.  It's nothing more than a term invented to cover up a lack of actual knowledge.

Well. I hope is the language barrier or something and my English is worse than I thought.

First of all, I don't assume anything you said. I gave three options because INDEPENDENTLY of who we know the staff is, we can't know how they work. We haven't been there, when decissions were taken. One thing is what we can know by the media (handled by the team or by leaks) and a different thing is what is it really like. You say it's consensus, so well take option 3. And with highest cap space in the league, BY FAR, I expect them to do better at least in the free agency. Maybe it's harder for an organization that has been so bad for so long to attract free agents, but I haven't seen many people in sports rejecting offers which are even a 30% better than the next one. I know what Pryor did, but he wasn't the only receiver in FA this offseason. And with so much cap space and so many people in rookie contracts, well, that's something that can be done. 

And I didn't talk about winning immediately, do you think that asking for 5 wins in 32 games is 'immediately' or 'unrealistic'? I talked about how it comes that in a PROCESS, there's been so little improvement in one year. I think that defense can become real good, and it's improving, I like things that I see, but this year's offense is been a step back even from last years'. And all the blame can't be on the rookie qb.

You shouldn't allow regression even in a multiple year process, I mean, stepping back to redo things was a task for year 1, not for year 2.

[BaconHound]

1 hour ago, Unsympathetic said:

1) No FO exists that didn't have a positive grade on Britt.

2) What's the cover-up? No one person gets the blame........... because NO ONE PERSON MAKES THE DECISION.

That's the entire point - there is no one person making any decision in any NFL FO.

That model of organization does not exist in the NFL.

 

 

If one person isn't responsible.. and every organization is behind every team's every move.. and every team uses analytics to rank players both in draft and FA.. then most of the gnashing of teeth in this thread is a waste of time because there isn't "just one immediate fix to make" after which wins will inevitably result magically.

Not completely true.  I would say multiple people are involved in decision making but when there isn't complete agreement there is one person who is charged with making it.  That may be the GM, President of Football Operations or an Owner. 

[wargograw]

21 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

It would be nice to know who exactly are the football guys behind the scenes. Anyone know?

Pretty sure it's on the website. Gumby posted some on this thread. Gipper has posted the full list.

 

6 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

So no one is responsible if your team sucks donkey dicks. Therefore continue to suck donkey dicks. Sounds reasonable to me.

I'm sure my grandkids would love this theory of responsibility when it comes to cleaning up the toy room they messed up in a consensus effort.

I'm sure your grandkids would love being thrown out on their butt too....

[Tour2ma]

31 minutes ago, wargograw said:

1. Pretty sure it's on the website. Gumby posted some on this thread. Gipper has posted the full list.
2. I'm sure your grandkids would love being thrown out on their butt too....

1. The FO... http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html
2. Grandkids may be on facebook....

[wargograw]

9 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

1. The FO... http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html
2. Grandkids may be on facebook....

The MLB must be hurting bad after we took that many scouts....