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We are a worse 0-8 than the 0-8 last year...AND


Tacosman
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there are not many signs of improvement in any area.

I keep seeing London Brown in particular pimping the defense as 'good' and "in the makings of being very very good".

This is such horse shite.  Anytime you are losing basically every game in the first half for much of the year traditional counting game end stats are going to superficially look

better than they otherwise would.  Teams who threw effectively in the first half for chunk plays are going to predictably churn the game down and the counting stats will suffer.  Thats why there are more

advanced stats out to measure actual defensive efficiency....DVOA being one of the more popular.  There are also more sophisticated metrics out there which attempt to really define defensive value in appropriate context.  

When looking at these, the browns are, predictably, a crappy defense.  Thats why teams have moved the ball at will on us for the most part early in the game(before they get up).  Additionally, even though by more advanced defensive statistics the defense sucks too, I think our talent level going forward is actually probably even worse.  Other than garrett, how many individual pieces on our entire defense would other teams really want in their rotation?  Look at our dbs...what other teams would want them?  We aren't good on defense now, and we certainly arent building something....

The idea that we are a qb away is stupid.  Sure, we need a good qb since thats the most important position in the nfl....

In terms of our pythag and game control analysis, we were CLEARLY a better winless team last year at this point than now.  We were 0-8 last year at this time, and we've GOTTEN WORSE.  We are a worse 0-8 now than our 0-8 last year.  How is this possible?  

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I said before the preseason that this team would be worse than it was in 2016. Nobody is saying schidt now, are they?

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7 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

I said before the preseason that this team would be worse than it was in 2016. Nobody is saying schidt now, are they?

If memory serves most of the board was saying that we would not have an offense, but looked forward to big changes in the defense, something you have yet to acknowledge. This is exactly what an overhaul looks like, though I will say I am not enamored with HC as a game day coach. Drop in an OC and use this 2018 draft wisely-legit QB WR and FS with a CB thrown in gets this team rolling. Overhauls always look like there are parts strewn all over the shop. We certainly fit that description.

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Defense got tired in second half last game. Our offense scored only 3 points and basically had 4 or 5 "3 and out" possessions. That KILLS a defense and don't forget we didn't have Myles Garrett...who we obviously needed because we just couldn't get to Keenum. I'm not about to blame the defense one bit. Special teams cost us SEVEN POINTS (fumble punt return that leads to FG, missed XP, missed FG) AND Hue Jackson cost us 3 points because he can't manage the effing clock. 

We can perhaps get a LITTLE better, but I just don't believe in Kizer one bit. He can only attack the sidelines, either on comeback routes or occasional deep passes. Or he throws a short pass to RB and TE. That's it folks. Can't attack middle. Can't do a deep seam. Can't throw a slant. Can't do just about anything the opposition can do to us. Now, we get Gordon back (maybe...hopefully) and Corey Coleman. All of the sudden we have WRs. Will it help? I'm saying no. But I've been wrong before. 

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2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

If memory serves most of the board was saying that we would not have an offense, but looked forward to big changes in the defense, something you have yet to acknowledge. This is exactly what an overhaul looks like, though I will say I am not enamored with HC as a game day coach. Drop in an OC and use this 2018 draft wisely-legit QB WR and FS with a CB thrown in gets this team rolling. Overhauls always look like there are parts strewn all over the shop. We certainly fit that description.

sure I've acknowledged it....I've pointed out that the defense, while not as bad as the offense, is still pretty bad.  furthermore, there are no really standout players on defense that other teams would covet.  I'd suggest that the defense at this point being 'pretty bad' as opposed to terrible is simply due to random fluctuation....

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Just now, Tacosman said:

sure I've acknowledged it....I've pointed out that the defense, while not as bad as the offense, is still pretty bad.  furthermore, there are no really standout players on defense that other teams would covet.  I'd suggest that the defense at this point being 'pretty bad' as opposed to terrible is simply due to random fluctuation....

And how many games have they played with all the key defenders actually in the game? One maybe? Let's just see how they look from this point on without Garrett or Shelton or Collins sitting on the sidelines. Our injury luck has been s h i t and yet they still play better than last year by far.

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You made a post to name drop someone?? Haha. Who cares if we are better or worse. We suck then and we suck now. Even if we win 2 games this year... we still suck. Would you feel better if we lost every game by 1 point? Of course not. We suck. No matter who you compare us to. 

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4 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

If memory serves most of the board was saying that we would not have an offense, but looked forward to big changes in the defense, something you have yet to acknowledge. This is exactly what an overhaul looks like, though I will say I am not enamored with HC as a game day coach. Drop in an OC and use this 2018 draft wisely-legit QB WR and FS with a CB thrown in gets this team rolling. Overhauls always look like there are parts strewn all over the shop. We certainly fit that description.

So you’re back on board? Why do I see you whining every other thread? You say this is what a rebuild looks like while you sit here and make fun of what they’re doing? I’m sure it’s a joy to be your grandson and work on a model car with you. 

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4 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

If memory serves most of the board was saying that we would not have an offense, but looked forward to big changes in the defense, something you have yet to acknowledge. This is exactly what an overhaul looks like, though I will say I am not enamored with HC as a game day coach. Drop in an OC and use this 2018 draft wisely-legit QB WR and FS with a CB thrown in gets this team rolling. Overhauls always look like there are parts strewn all over the shop. We certainly fit that description.

Let hope Gordon can stay on the straight and narrow, return to 90% of what he was three years ago, and Coleman can stay healthy. WR problem solved. :)

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53 minutes ago, wargograw said:

So you’re back on board? Why do I see you whining every other thread? You say this is what a rebuild looks like while you sit here and make fun of what they’re doing? I’m sure it’s a joy to be your grandson and work on a model car with you. 

I acknowledged in another thread that I vacillate back and forth. I want the rebuild but I don't always agree with the execution or the coaching. As for  models I am not my engineering father's son. I don't do anything mechanical except use a phone to call repair people. I hated models, tinkertoys, etc. growing up and scored 1/2 of 1% on a mechanical interest test. So I don't torture my grandkids (male or female) with that ineptitude either.:P

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This thread was started by someone im not sure really understands how defense in football works. We're 6th in rushing defense and actually have the lowest ypc of any def in the league. Has that translated into wins? Ofc not, u dont get points on the board for stopping a runner behind the los. 

But saying this defense is only marginally better than last years defense is a facepalming facedragging statement. I mean u just cant be serious. The talent comment is somewhat valid. Id say ogbah, orchard and nassib would have to fight tooth and nail to make the active rosters of pretty much any otherbteam in the NFL. But danny would start places...kirksey and collins absolutely could start for the more elite defenses. And the jury's still our on schobert cause its his firstbyear at the position but he's so far done a good job. Mccourty and calhoun also look to be legit starters in the nfl. 

So theres sht there to work with. What williams has done in less than a year is nothing shirt of amazing so Shmuck you know nothing browns fans that want both sides of the ball tore up every year ensuring the browns never win another game for all of eternity. You fukking hacks go watch rspn deportes or Shmucking fs1 soccer. Just stop being browns fans please

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35 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

This thread was started by someone im not sure really understands how defense in football works. We're 6th in rushing defense and actually have the lowest ypc of any def in the league. Has that translated into wins? Ofc not, u dont get points on the board for stopping a runner behind the los.

But saying this defense is only marginally better than last years defense is a facepalming facedragging statement. I mean u just cant be serious. The talent comment is somewhat valid. Id say ogbah, orchard and nassib would have to fight tooth and nail to make the active rosters of pretty much any otherbteam in the NFL. But danny would start places...kirksey and collins absolutely could start for the more elite defenses. And the jury's still our on schobert cause its his firstbyear at the position but he's so far done a good job. Mccourty and calhoun also look to be legit starters in the nfl.

So theres sht there to work with. What williams has done in less than a year is nothing shirt of amazing so Shmuck you know nothing browns fans that want both sides of the ball tore up every year ensuring the browns never win another game for all of eternity. You fukking hacks go watch rspn deportes or Shmucking fs1 soccer. Just stop being browns fans please

lmao...no YOU don't understand how defense in the nfl(and really the nfl in general) works if you think defensive rushing stats in the nfl are very important.  You are thinking about the nfl like this is 1974.  What wins now is:

-preventing third down conversions when game in doubt

-avoiding big chunk plays through the air

-pressure on qb

-lowering qbs qbr when game is still in doubt

those things are going to correlate pretty well with overall defensive value.  Not rushing ypc defense!!

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8 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

If memory serves most of the board was saying that we would not have an offense, but looked forward to big changes in the defense, something you have yet to acknowledge. This is exactly what an overhaul looks like, though I will say I am not enamored with HC as a game day coach. Drop in an OC and use this 2018 draft wisely-legit QB WR and FS with a CB thrown in gets this team rolling. Overhauls always look like there are parts strewn all over the shop. We certainly fit that description.

The defense is improved? Where? The defense is DIFFERENT...........it is a swarming defense, for sure, but it is not a dominating defense, it is not a defense that scares anyone, and it is not a defense that makes big plays or stops the other guy from making big plays. I keep hearing how defense wins ball games. So let's follow your logic.............

  • Defense wins ball games
  • Our defense is greatly improved
  • We have not won any ball games

Two conclusions............. Offense, NOT defense wins ball games.  Also, Offense MAKES good defense.

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7 minutes ago, Ghoolie said:

The defense is improved? Where? The defense is DIFFERENT...........it is a swarming defense, for sure, but it is not a dominating defense, it is not a defense that scares anyone, and it is not a defense that makes big plays or stops the other guy from making big plays. I keep hearing how defense wins ball games. So let's follow your logic.............

  • Defense wins ball games
  • Our defense is greatly improved
  • We have not won any ball games

Two conclusions............. Offense, NOT defense wins ball games.  Also, Offense MAKES good defense.

We'll see if your favorite whipping boy Garrett can make a difference if he can stay healthy. One thing I've noticed- that great defenses do- is pressure the other team's QB, something we're not doing on a regular basis.  We're 20th in sacks, sort of middle of the road . 

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3 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I acknowledged in another thread that I vacillate back and forth. I want the rebuild but I don't always agree with the execution or the coaching. As for  models I am not my engineering father's son. I don't do anything mechanical except use a phone to call repair people. I hated models, tinkertoys, etc. growing up and scored 1/2 of 1% on a mechanical interest test. So I don't torture my grandkids (male or female) with that ineptitude either.:P

Well we need people that are solid not vacillating. 

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2 hours ago, wargograw said:

Well we need people that are solid not vacillating. 

I'm a solid on the process but I just think Hue needs an OC. Hopefully the process will figure that out too. The true test comes with the 2018 draft and if they drop in the key players this team needs most. QB, WR, FS and RB plus a CB would be very helpful if they all go in Rds 1 & 2.

 

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3 hours ago, Tacosman said:

lmao...no YOU don't understand how defense in the nfl(and really the nfl in general) works if you think defensive rushing stats in the nfl are very important.  You are thinking about the nfl like this is 1974.  What wins now is:

-preventing third down conversions when game in doubt

-avoiding big chunk plays through the air

-pressure on qb

-lowering qbs qbr when game is still in doubt

those things are going to correlate pretty well with overall defensive value.  Not rushing ypc defense!!

Ok, listen because im not explaining this again. You are correct when u say that it is more important to stop the pass then the rush, but its not THAT much more impirtant as ur making it out to be. I already gave the example how the colts defense when manning was there were a pass rushing JUGGERNAUT but sucked so bad against the run that as soon as an opposing defense kept manning somewhat in check the opposing offense was then able to control the game through the run keeping manning off the field. This was the Patriots recipe for owning manning in the playoffs. Manning would have 4-5 rings had his defense been more balanced. 

Its this lack of football knowledge amongst browns fans thats really on my last. You bemoan our useless rush defense not realizing that williams is building fundamental competecies in steps just like he's done in other towns building some of the best defenses in the modern era. His rans teams were oass rushing savants cause he was allowed time to build them acquiring talent like Long. 

Do u not see how we're tackling better? Discipline against the run will lead to better pass rushing when we get better pass rushers. We'd still be 0-8 if opposing teams were running for 200 yds on us every game with practice squad guys, just like what happened last year. Ur defense has to have balance, we're 18th in pass defense...not great but not horrible. Thats mainly on oyr secondary who are not getting any help from the pass rush. 

Im not explaining again why u dont tear this up. We will not get a defensive guy like williams here ever again if the entire staff is turned. My points about bringing up our current rankings are not just to hang oyr hat on something ballz deep in an 0-8 season. Its tomshow how much williams has improved our defense in such a short time. U dont throw that away

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22 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

And how many games have they played with all the key defenders actually in the game? One maybe? Let's just see how they look from this point on without Garrett or Shelton or Collins sitting on the sidelines. Our injury luck has been s h i t and yet they still play better than last year by far.

How many teams actually start their whole compliment of starters? Most have guys missing all through the season.

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On 11/1/2017 at 11:37 PM, Tacosman said:

you and I both know they are worse(thats what the numbers say as last year we were better than our record...this year we arent), but we have a couple tools in here talking about all this improvement supposedly.

There were those on this board who said before this season that Pgh was only better than the Browns at three positions. I thought that was delusional, unless the three positions are offense, defense, and special teams. 

All those draft picks and nothing whatsoever to show. No one any good, few who even look like they could become good. I just don’t know how they could miss so completely. Watching the Browns try to draft and develop talent is like watching Ray Charles take batting practice.

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On 11/2/2017 at 6:14 PM, LogicIsForSquares said:

Yeah it would be a shame if people posted however they wish.

It would be a shame if they're fired on the basis of people who in reality supported them but couldn't stop making fun of them (such as Ag). 

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4 hours ago, wargograw said:

It would be a shame if they're fired on the basis of people who in reality supported them but couldn't stop making fun of them (such as Ag). 

But they make it so damn easy.:P

I said I support the process, but not necessarily the execution. They need help on gameday (an OC) and in the FO with more football acumen in their picks. Like buying a classic car that needs a good tuneup if only the parts fit a little better. You don't junk the car, you fix it properly with a little more expertise.

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