Wentz Goff and Mariotta

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, wargograw said:

If you're criticizing the Osweiler trade you're even more ignorant than I thought.

I was trying to make the point he's a lawyer with an addiction to playing draft pick monopoly, nothing more, nothing less.

[hoorta]

19 hours ago, stillmotion said:

would you trade garrett for wentz straight up?

No brainier.

[hoorta]

9 hours ago, wargograw said:

And had we drafted Wentz last year and they drafted Kizer last year,  you'd trade for Kizer in a heartbeat.

Har, har, har. Kizer would still be throwing passes 8' over his receivers heads. Wentz would at least be throwing on target passes that Hands of Stone Britt would drop. I'll about bet the ranch getting Coleman and Gordon back will have zero effect on Kizer's accuracy.

Question- if Kizer is all that great, then WHY try to trade for McCarron? Who IMHO is mediocre at best.

[stillmotion]

9 hours ago, wargograw said:

And had we drafted Wentz last year and they drafted Kizer last year,  you'd trade for Kizer in a heartbeat.

I never liked Kizer or thought he was more than a project. I root for him because he's a Cleveland Brown. You just continue to not use statistics or facts to back up your arguments. Wentz in a whole is better than Kizer and would make us better. Also, turn on ESPN or FSN. Every sports announcer in the nation is saying that Depodesta doesn't know what he's doing with football, and that Sashi is a classy guy, he's good at acquiring assets, but we keep making all of the wrong moves with the draft picks we're selecting and they're in over the heads. We need a football guy in charge of making those picks, not a baseball guy and a lawyer. Sashi needs a boss. The name of the game is winning bro, and we're not just abysmal, we're approaching the one of the worst two year records ever. As Herm Edwards says, you play to win. I get that you believe in the FO and trust that Sashi will be the genius savior that changes us into a winning football team, but you better believe he Shmucked up by not taking Wentz or Watson, and needs to produce a team that can compete next year, otherwise, he's gone..... then he won't be so confident giving pressers. 

[wargograw]

14 hours ago, Tacosman said:

so our offensive line, which is half the supporting cast for a young qb(and MUCH MUCH better than houston's) is good.  Glad you acknowledge that.

As for drafting/signing new wide recievers, yeah we could....we could also do that when we freaking could have drafted wentz.  Since we would have still been a ton under the cap.  The holes in your arguments are 3 miles wide.  

And yes savage does "just plain suck".  So do our qbs.  Hence my perfect example of an offense that was rolling along with a qb playing well(watson) vs one that is sucking with a crappy qb on the level of ours(Savage).  

The OL can give you all day in the pocket and it does nothing when your receivers drop half the stuff you throw to them.

More whining about the past. Don't really care. 

Savage is bringing the team down. Kizer is just playing to the level of the talent around him. Yes, if you brought in some spectacular QB he might be able to make SOME things happen, but you act like inserting Carson Wentz would mean a SB for this team. That's just stupid. 

14 hours ago, Tacosman said:

again you just say crap without any knowledge/awareness of the data, and then when the data completely contradicts your troll-level bs arguments you just make more shite up.  In this particular case you've done it again as a quick look at our 1st half points allowed this year relative to league average will show that our defense has given up too many points well before games have gotten out of hand.  but you don't care about this because you're just trolling.

Post said stats, hoss. I'm guessing they'll be completely skewed by 2 or 3 games. Let's see.

14 hours ago, hoorta said:

Har, har, har. Kizer would still be throwing passes 8' over his receivers heads. Wentz would at least be throwing on target passes that Hands of Stone Britt would drop. I'll about bet the ranch getting Coleman and Gordon back will have zero effect on Kizer's accuracy.

Question- if Kizer is all that great, then WHY try to trade for McCarron? Who IMHO is mediocre at best.

Because Hue is panicking because fans like yourself have the pitchforks out.

13 hours ago, stillmotion said:

I never liked Kizer or thought he was more than a project. I root for him because he's a Cleveland Brown. You just continue to not use statistics or facts to back up your arguments. Wentz in a whole is better than Kizer and would make us better. Also, turn on ESPN or FSN. Every sports announcer in the nation is saying that Depodesta doesn't know what he's doing with football, and that Sashi is a classy guy, he's good at acquiring assets, but we keep making all of the wrong moves with the draft picks we're selecting and they're in over the heads. We need a football guy in charge of making those picks, not a baseball guy and a lawyer. Sashi needs a boss. The name of the game is winning bro, and we're not just abysmal, we're approaching the one of the worst two year records ever. As Herm Edwards says, you play to win. I get that you believe in the FO and trust that Sashi will be the genius savior that changes us into a winning football team, but you better believe he Shmucked up by not taking Wentz or Watson, and needs to produce a team that can compete next year, otherwise, he's gone..... then he won't be so confident giving pressers. 

The media is incredibly lazy. Do you think anyone cares enough to actually spend the time to research what's going on here when they're responsible for knowing what's going on with the other 31 teams (and for many, what's going on in other sports as well)? Much easier to just say "yeah, they need some football guys!" than to actually do any significant level of analysis. 

[miktoxic]

16 hours ago, wargograw said:

Or when you can analyze stats....

sorry paul....i think stats and those who look at them like pages of some holy scripture is why wer'e in the toilet and have been since the 80s.

for all you guys who cream dream about this scheme or that play how about thinking about our players suck butt compared to like 30 other team's rosters in the NFL?

build a team around them? when do they ask that of DEs, RBs, WRs, CBs etc. etc.

draft the franchise and if he can stand at the end of the day halle-fuggin-lulliah.

[stillmotion]

3 hours ago, wargograw said:

The OL can give you all day in the pocket and it does nothing when your receivers drop half the stuff you throw to them.

More whining about the past. Don't really care. 

Savage is bringing the team down. Kizer is just playing to the level of the talent around him. Yes, if you brought in some spectacular QB he might be able to make SOME things happen, but you act like inserting Carson Wentz would mean a SB for this team. That's just stupid. 

Or he acts like Wentz would make the Browns better, which he would

3 hours ago, wargograw said:

The media is incredibly lazy. Do you think anyone cares enough to actually spend the time to research what's going on here when they're responsible for knowing what's going on with the other 31 teams (and for many, what's going on in other sports as well)? Much easier to just say "yeah, they need some football guys!" than to actually do any significant level of analysis. 

That's an incredibly lazy way to generalize Herm Edwards' take on the Browns. He was a former NFL coach and knows his Sheet. If everyone in the NFL circle, Shannon Sharpe, and other former NFL players recognize there's some major flaws in the Browns "process", they're probably not making it up and being lazy. 1-23 and missing on Wentz and Watson isn't lazy, it's incompetent. Doesn't mean we can't change things in the future, but things here are far from perfect.

[Tacosman]

10 hours ago, wargograw said:

The OL can give you all day in the pocket and it does nothing when your receivers drop half the stuff you throw to them.

More whining about the past. Don't really care.

Savage is bringing the team down. Kizer is just playing to the level of the talent around him. Yes, if you brought in some spectacular QB he might be able to make SOME things happen, but you act like inserting Carson Wentz would mean a SB for this team. That's just stupid.

Post said stats, hoss. I'm guessing they'll be completely skewed by 2 or 3 games. Let's see.

Because Hue is panicking because fans like yourself have the pitchforks out.

The media is incredibly lazy. Do you think anyone cares enough to actually spend the time to research what's going on here when they're responsible for knowing what's going on with the other 31 teams (and for many, what's going on in other sports as well)? Much easier to just say "yeah, they need some football guys!" than to actually do any significant level of analysis.

Ive never acted like Carson Wentz would 'bring the team a super bowl'.  Another troll-level argument on your part.  There is some middle ground between 1-23 and super bowl you know.

Stats?  I've posted stats throughout on the matter....as for 'being skewed', thats the nature of things.  Likewise, if you remove the best two or three games from the browns defense you get a points allowed total that is even much worse than near the bottom of the league where it is now.  Thats why you just look at the data as a whole...which shows the browns defense, while not as bad as their offense, is still pretty bad.

[Tacosman]

7 hours ago, stillmotion said:

Or he acts like Wentz would make the Browns better, which he would

That's an incredibly lazy way to generalize Herm Edwards' take on the Browns. He was a former NFL coach and knows his Sheet. If everyone in the NFL circle, Shannon Sharpe, and other former NFL players recognize there's some major flaws in the Browns "process", they're probably not making it up and being lazy. 1-23 and missing on Wentz and Watson isn't lazy, it's incompetent. Doesn't mean we can't change things in the future, but things here are far from perfect.

the funny thing is war acts like his view on the matter is driven by analytics or data from the language he uses.  When it's the exact opposite.

[Tacosman]

10 hours ago, wargograw said:

 

Because Hue is panicking because fans like yourself have the pitchforks out.

 

Again with this continued nonsense that the players and coaches are performing worse because of 'the fans'.  Where is the data or any evidence base to suggest such nonsense?  Every single post you make is nothing but one cliched thought after another.  My favorite one of yours is that fans are going to 'run a qb out of town'.  Never mind the fact that this is completely impossible and although kizer, hogan, and kessler continue to perform at historically bad levels they haven't been 'run out of town' yet.

But go ahead....spout some other meaningless cliche without any evidence base.

[Tacosman]

On Wednesday, November 08, 2017 at 9:03 AM, stillmotion said:

I was trying to make the point he's a lawyer with an addiction to playing draft pick monopoly, nothing more, nothing less.

if the osweiler trade was a good trade and the value of a 2nd round pick is 16 million, then what does it say about throwing away a 2nd round pick on kizer?

these trolls cant have it both ways......

[Canton Dawg]

24 minutes ago, Tacosman said:

if the osweiler trade was a good trade and the value of a 2nd round pick is 16 million, then what does it say about throwing away a 2nd round pick on kizer?

these trolls cant have it both ways......

Then they were willing to trade a 2nd & 3rd for Andy Dalton's backup. 

Try to figure that out??!!

[Unsympathetic]

15 minutes ago, Tacosman said:

if the osweiler trade was a good trade and the value of a 2nd round pick is 16 million, then what does it say about throwing away a 2nd round pick on kizer?

these trolls cant have it both ways......

Not just Kizer, but apparently McCarron [whose actual value is equivalent to Kessler at best] is $16M plus a 3rd?

[wargograw]

On 11/8/2017 at 11:49 PM, miktoxic said:

 

build a team around them? when do they ask that of DEs, RBs, WRs, CBs etc. etc.

 

RBs and WRs are the only ones on that list whose performance is significantly dependent on others. 

22 hours ago, Tacosman said:

Ive never acted like Carson Wentz would 'bring the team a super bowl'.  Another troll-level argument on your part.  There is some middle ground between 1-23 and super bowl you know.

Stats?  I've posted stats throughout on the matter....as for 'being skewed', thats the nature of things.  Likewise, if you remove the best two or three games from the browns defense you get a points allowed total that is even much worse than near the bottom of the league where it is now.  Thats why you just look at the data as a whole...which shows the browns defense, while not as bad as their offense, is still pretty bad.

There's a difference between hyperbole and trolling. You say there's middle ground, yet if we win 1 you want to fire everyone, when we were winning 4-5 you wanted to fire everyone. You will always want to fire everyone with no idea on how to actually fix anything.

I haven't seen you post anything. You've SAID our defense sucks and run D means nothing. And you've overexaggerated some games over and above the entire resume. I haven't seen any actual stats. Your attempt at summarizing them means nothing to me. 

22 hours ago, Tacosman said:

Again with this continued nonsense that the players and coaches are performing worse because of 'the fans'.  Where is the data or any evidence base to suggest such nonsense?  Every single post you make is nothing but one cliched thought after another.  My favorite one of yours is that fans are going to 'run a qb out of town'.  Never mind the fact that this is completely impossible and although kizer, hogan, and kessler continue to perform at historically bad levels they haven't been 'run out of town' yet.

But go ahead....spout some other meaningless cliche without any evidence base.

The evidence is in Browns season 1999-2016. Fans wanted almost every one of those regimes fired. They got what they wanted. And we still suck. Now we want to fire everyone again. What more evidence do you need? 

At least two of Kizer, Hogan, and Kessler won't be here by the end of 2018, and at least one of them won't be here for next season. I never said they get run out of town based on one or two bad games, so the fact that it hasn't happened YET means absolutely nothing. But make no mistake it will happen. 

[flyingfooldoug]

It can't be the fans fault. There aren't hardly any left. Look at the home games. More visiting fans than homers. Look around the area. Nothing with brown and orange is visible. Lots of Tribe and Cavs gear tho. You do see stool gear out that you never would have saw in the past. The media? Try NYC, Boston or Dallas sports media for awhile and you will think Cleveland sports media wears kid gloves. Happy no football season from northeast Ohio!

[wargograw]

7 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

It can't be the fans fault. There aren't hardly any left. Look at the home games. More visiting fans than homers. Look around the area. Nothing with brown and orange is visible. Lots of Tribe and Cavs gear tho. You do see stool gear out that you never would have saw in the past. The media? Try NYC, Boston or Dallas sports media for awhile and you will think Cleveland sports media wears kid gloves. Happy no football season from northeast Ohio!

Well considering I live in Cowboys country, I do see/hear them first hand. And they are tremendously supportive. Delusionally so quite often. So you're wrong on that.

[flyingfooldoug]

47 minutes ago, wargograw said:

Well considering I live in Cowboys country, I do see/hear them first hand. And they are tremendously supportive. Delusionally so quite often. So you're wrong on that.

Nope, no cowboy fans around here either. I really don't understand your post or your point of view. I thought nobody sez anything to you about football. If you come here, I'll get you some lake perch and fresh walleye. But finding any public browns gear would be tough

[wargograw]

Me hearing the Cowboys media does not equate to me hearing trash talk about the Browns.

[BaconHound]

On October 29, 2017 at 10:12 PM, MLD Woody said:

You build a team for the QB first, then get the QB.

This is correct but the problem you can run into is not being able to bring the guy in when the franchise is ready.  While Tim Couch and David Carr got f'd look at the Jags.  They are ready but Bortles isn't the guy and no guarantee you get him in this years draft.

[The Gipper]

15 hours ago, BaconHound said:

This is correct but the problem you can run into is not being able to bring the guy in when the franchise is ready.  While Tim Couch and David Carr got f'd look at the Jags.  They are ready but Bortles isn't the guy and no guarantee you get him in this years draft.

Jags may be one of those teams that will bring in a veteran proven winner.  Some have speculated that it would be no surprise if Eli Manning ended up with his old coach Tom Coughlin in JAX  next year.

[Mark O]

29 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Jags may be one of those teams that will bring in a veteran proven winner.  Some have speculated that it would be no surprise if Eli Manning ended up with his old coach Tom Coughlin in JAX  next year.

The Jags defense is for real and Fournette is really good as well.  They may be a decent QB away from being one of the best in the AFC.   Cousins, Alex Smith or sure maybe Eli would all be in play for the Jags. 

[stillmotion]

1 minute ago, Mark O said:

The Jags defense is for real and Fournette is really good as well.  They may be a decent QB away from being one of the best in the AFC.   Cousins, Alex Smith or sure maybe Eli would all be in play for the Jags. 

Jags or Vikings could realistically win it all this year.

[Mark O]

Just now, stillmotion said:

Jags or Vikings could realistically win it all this year.

Vikings could....I don't think the Jags can because they'll get Bortled at some point and he will cost them a game.   It's the only chance the Browns have this weekend if his Blake Bortles himself and gives the Browns like 14 points, otherwise I don't see us having enough offense against their defense and eventually Fournette will wear down our defense.   

[The Gipper]

54 minutes ago, Mark O said:

The Jags defense is for real and Fournette is really good as well.  They may be a decent QB away from being one of the best in the AFC.   Cousins, Alex Smith or sure maybe Eli would all be in play for the Jags. 

Why Alex Smith?  Is he an FA after the season?

[Mark O]

23 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Why Alex Smith?  Is he an FA after the season?

I think the Chiefs will want to move on from him to play Mahomes. 

[The Gipper]

50 minutes ago, Mark O said:

I think the Chiefs will want to move on from him to play Mahomes. 

I wouldn't if I were them.  Maybe after next year....but not after this year....not as long as they are a serious contender.

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

I wouldn't if I were them.  Maybe after next year....but not after this year....not as long as they are a serious contender.

Probably not till 2019

[Tour2ma]

On 11/12/2017 at 6:05 PM, BaconHound said:

This is correct but the problem you can run into is not being able to bring the guy in when the franchise is ready.  While Tim Couch and David Carr got f'd look at the Jags.  They are ready but Bortles isn't the guy and no guarantee you get him in this years draft.

Agree... I was a staunch "QB first" guy as that is when you are most likely in position to nab "the guy". But this FO, our FO, has shown me another path. So now, to my mind the order is situational. If you believe you see a generational QB talent, you take him, if/when you are in a position to do so. Then the question becomes: do you play him day one?

If in the alternative you choose to build around a journeyman QB and manage to milk a few wins out of that team you can win your way out of position to land "the guy". Look no further than the Jets and what McC has done there.

I think it is clear now that what we, our FO, have done is have it both ways... to let our trio of inexperienced QBs dictate our path. Had any one of them risen to the level it would take to win with a yet incomplete Offense and, to a lesser extent, Defense, then he should be our answer to the position. But if, as has turned out to be the case, none did rise, at least not quickly enough to impact the season, then we are once again in position to have our pick of the litter.

[Tour2ma]

On 11/13/2017 at 10:09 AM, Mark O said:

The Jags defense is for real and Fournette is really good as well.  They may be a decent QB away from being one of the best in the AFC.   Cousins, Alex Smith or sure maybe Eli would all be in play for the Jags. 

I don't see Eli being around long enough to be a good choice, but he certainly could put them over the top for a season.

The Cousins $$$ competition looks like it'll be ridiculous... even with a likely reduced interest in SF. Smith's trade value is also likely to rise, but could still be "reasonable" given his age and KC potential interest in moving him.

23 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Why Alex Smith?  Is he an FA after the season?

Salary cap... I wrote about this a month ago when I raised his name for us.

[Mark O]

1 minute ago, Tour2ma said:

I don't see Eli being around long enough to be a good choice, but he certainly could put them over the top for a season.

Eli is only 36 years old.   Brady is still going at 40...Eli could give them 2 or 3 decent years and with that Jags defense and Fournette at RB, hell..they'd be a force in the AFC each year.  Would probably be worth it if I was the Jags.