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Westside Steve

By Westside Steve
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The Gipper Newbie

The Gipper

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Saw him on Golic/Wingo this morning.   He is saying take Darnold with #1 and Saquon Barkley #6.

Meh.

I don't know....the only person that could satisfy is Ghoolie......but when they both go bust.....Ghoolie would still claim that the Browns will not invest in offensive skill players.

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Tour2ma Contributor

Tour2ma

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2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

I'd rather have Rosen but a blue-chip quarterback and running back before you get to the second round sounds good to me.

Darnold has "Happy Feet". I understand why he does, but once a QB gets them, it is hard to get him to give them up.

At #1 give me the guy with the best mechanics I've seen in years, not one I have to fix.... give me the guy whose floor is highest... ESPECIALLY at #1 overall.

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TexasAg1969 Veteran

TexasAg1969

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21 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Darnold has "Happy Feet". I understand why he does, but once a QB gets them, it is hard to get him to give them up.

At #1 give me the guy with the best mechanics I've seen in years, not one I have to fix.... give me the guy whose floor is highest... ESPECIALLY at #1 overall.

Exactly!

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The Gipper Newbie

The Gipper

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3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Darnold has "Happy Feet". I understand why he does, but once a QB gets them, it is hard to get him to give them up.

At #1 give me the guy with the best mechanics I've seen in years, not one I have to fix.... give me the guy whose floor is highest... ESPECIALLY at #1 overall.

You got someone in mind?

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Dutch Oven Grand Master

Dutch Oven

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8 minutes ago, Orion said:

I would like two real good players in round 1.

One that can throw it.....and one that can catch it.

The problem is, unless you trade down with the Texans pick, there's a good chance taking a WR in the #6-10 range is somewhat of a reach. (And I like Ridley, but IMO he doesn't appear to be a stud no-doubt #1 type of guy)

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hoorta Veteran

hoorta

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32 minutes ago, Orion said:

I would like two real good players in round 1.

One that can throw it.....and one that can catch it.

Or run with it. Best QB @ #1, if Barkley is still around with the Texans pick- go for it. No trade ups please. The Richardson stench still lingers....   And Saquon is no Trent,  just MHO.

If Gordon stays out of trouble, and Coleman stays healthy, we're OK @ wr. Can wait till day 2 to go for that # 3 wideout, or make an offer for one of the top FA wrs. Just please no second round stinkers like Little, Massaquoi, or Robiski.  

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gumby73 Veteran

gumby73

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IMO it’s hard to trust Rosen’s durability in the AFCN at 215lbs. Great accuracy still, coming off a 6 game sophomore season due to throwing shoulder surgery with 13 sacks in 6 games. Than this season, watched Rosen get the snot kicked out of him with A&M but the kid took it like a Josh McCown fighter’s attitude coming back from the dead to win. October’s not his month for injury, following shoulder last October, Washington got Josh this October for a concussion which Josh tried to hide from coaches & played. than at Cal, Josh got pulled for precautionary coach’s decision on 3 more sacks which last sack Josh got up s l o w l y..Long way till April, Also like Chubbs or Fitz on the Houston pick

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TexasAg1969 Veteran

TexasAg1969

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6 hours ago, darren15 said:

Who does he have us taking with our 2nd 1st round pick ?

 

18 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Saw him on Golic/Wingo this morning.   He is saying take Darnold with #1 and Saquon Barkley #6.

That answer your question darren?

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jiggins7919 Experienced

jiggins7919

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16 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Darnold has "Happy Feet". I understand why he does, but once a QB gets them, it is hard to get him to give them up.

At #1 give me the guy with the best mechanics I've seen in years, not one I have to fix.... give me the guy whose floor is highest... ESPECIALLY at #1 overall.

I keep hearing this crap about Darnold having the higher ceiling...child please. The Browns don't need the higher POSSIBLE ceiling, they need the most NFL ready prospect who also happens to be physically gifted, and his name is Rosen. I'm not saying Darnold doesn't have his share of admirable traits, but if most pundits are saying Rosen is more advanced at this juncture, then I don't see the point in drafting anybody else. Rosen is a joy to watch, and I'm quite fond of the way he climbs the pocket and doesn't panic when feeling pressure. Rosen isn't the "perfect candidate" and definitely has parts of his game to improve, but I'm very interested in reading more about him both as a player and a person in the months to come. 

The other guy who might come to Cleveland is Baker Mayfield, and we've already read how John Dorsey has personally been to 6 of his games this season. I've always said that the qb that breaks us out of this miserable slump is going to be someone special. Someone who refuses to lose, refuses to give into "same old Browns" mentality, refuses to accept this supposed curse. Mayfield has the kind of fire I could see working in Cleveland. The kind of personality I could really see the fans embracing and rallying behind. 

One of the biggest aspects to Kizer's game that concerned me coming out of college was he wasn't known to be "clutch". It's difficult to quantify this metric, but I heard some kind of stat that basically said Kizer almost never won a game when down 1 score in the 4th quarter (or something like that). Don't quote me on that, as I know I butchered it, but you get the point. Basically, when the game was in the line, Kizer wasn't generally in top form. To be fair to Kizer, there were a few times in college when he drove down the field in the 4th quarter and scored for a lead, but his defense didn't hold. But when he got the ball back in "crunch time", he didn't deliver. 

Now, also being fair to Kizer, he SHOULD'VE won the game last week. On the biggest 3rd down of his career, he delivered the ball to Njoku directly in his chest. Not high, not behind him, and not low. It was a strike when we needed it the most. The Packers had only the 2 minute warning to stop the clock, and they would have gotten the ball back with about a minute to go. That's assuming we didn't pick up another 1st down with Crow and flat out ending it that way. But again, Kizer gets the ball back in OT, and instead of being clutch, falls victim to an experienced pro in Matthews. 

I'm not saying Josh Rosen isn't a clutch guy, I haven't picked apart his games yet. I remember his comeback in the A&M game (I think) in which his team still lost (again, I think) and that was pretty awesome. Now,Rosen was greatly assisted by an AMAZING catch and run, but still...he made the throw. 

This QB dissection is going to be fun before the draft. We're going to post a bunch, probably change our minds, and get into some fun discussions. But here's the thing:  There's absolutely NO guarantee whoever we draft is going to beat out Kizer. In fact, it's going to be very difficult TO beat him out, especially if Hue Jackson really gets to stay. Having a year of the offense under his belt is a big leg up, and many QBs in the NFL show remarkable improvement in their second seasons. Now, we know better than to EXPECT Josh Gordon to be here in 2018, but if he is, we'll have a legit #1 target. Just in 2 games it's completely obvious to see what an elite target does for a QB. Toss in a quality free agent WR, improvement from Njoku, and maybe a stud draft pick...we might have an offense. 

But let's be honest here. We all know that Kizer's turnovers have devastated us this year, but most of us realize the biggest aspect of our team that prevents us from winning is our defense. We saw it again last week. Sure, Kizer's pick is what people remember, but our defense completely killed us. Again. We give up a passer rating of 103 against qb's this year. That's INSANE people. Aaron Rodgers leads the league in qb rating average, and I believe his career average rating is like 102. So basically we're playing Aaron Rodgers every week because our defense is just THAT BAD. We need to fix this before we can fix anything else. 

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Westside Steve Grand Master

Westside Steve

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21 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Darnold has "Happy Feet". I understand why he does, but once a QB gets them, it is hard to get him to give them up.

At #1 give me the guy with the best mechanics I've seen in years, not one I have to fix.... give me the guy whose floor is highest... ESPECIALLY at #1 overall.

Who might that be? I said I'd rather have Rosen.

WSS

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Tour2ma Contributor

Tour2ma

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17 hours ago, RoyceRolls said:

I’m gonna go out on a limb and assume Tour means Rosen...

And you, Sir, would be correct.

I'm not sure if Gip has a comprehension issue or a retention issue... or both.

4 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I keep hearing this crap about Darnold having the higher ceiling...child please. The Browns don't need the higher POSSIBLE ceiling, they need the most NFL ready prospect who also happens to be physically gifted, and his name is Rosen. I'm not saying Darnold doesn't have his share of admirable traits, but if most pundits are saying Rosen is more advanced at this juncture, then I don't see the point in drafting anybody else. Rosen is a joy to watch, and I'm quite fond of the way he climbs the pocket and doesn't panic when feeling pressure. Rosen isn't the "perfect candidate" and definitely has parts of his game to improve, but I'm very interested in reading more about him both as a player and a person in the months to come.

Great summary...

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Tour2ma Contributor

Tour2ma

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28 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I’m gonna go out on a limb and assume Tour means Rosen...

And you, Sir, would be correct.

I'm not sure if Gip has a comprehension issue or a retention issue... or both.

I have a  "I don't give a Shite" issue....

Then don't ask...

19 hours ago, The Gipper said:

You got someone in mind?

 

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jiggins7919 Experienced

jiggins7919

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Here's the thing that nobody really wants to talk about. If/when we draft a QB early, there will be TREMENDOUS pressure to play the young man right away. What usually happens to rookies when they play right away? And what happens to rookie qb's when they play right away for the WORST team in the world? I think you get the point. What HAPPENS is a lot of losing. What happens when there's lots of losing? Everybody gets fired. 

I guess what I'm saying is that if we're starting a new rookie QB, how much longer is Hue's leash? Dorsey already said he expects the AFC North crown next year and nothing else will do. That's ridiculous. So how is this going to work? Is John Dorsey really going to give Hue Jackson the time he needs to develop ANOTHER rookie QB? While it's true we have 5 VERY high draft picks, only a fool would expect rookies to instantly transform the worst team in the league. Look at the 4 high picks from 2017. Did THEY transform anything? We're 0-13, so you be the judge. 

Obviously Kizer was a big reason for our immense sucking, but when you look at our receivers, you realize that only so much blame can be placed on him. Kizer looks much better with Corey Coleman and Josh Gordon on the field...weird! Also, the running game is emerging and Njoku is playing better. Having better receivers is transforming our offense, and there's still room for growth. With a year under his 21 year-old belt, it's not out of the impossible to think Kizer can drastically improve next year. Do ANY of you really think a rookie is going to play better than Kizer who will have seen and experienced a TON of NFL football? It's certainly possible, but I'd say the odds are against it. For about 9 games this year, Kizer was throwing to Ricardo Louis, Higgins, Kenny Britt, and other bozos. How FAIR is it to judge him on those games? 

This team CAN transform immediately, but the only way it can happen is if we get a veteran QB. While it's true we can throw the checkbook at Cousins, he'd have to be a fool to come here. The one who makes the most sense is Alex Smith, and he's also the one John Dorsey has a professional relationship with. The Chiefs are in the middle of a historic meltdown, but little of that can be traced back to Alex. While Cleveland doesn't have Kareem Hunt, Tyreek Hill, or a probowl tight end, the cupboard isn't bare. Alex completes 70% of his passes compared to Kizer's 53%. That's an INSANE difference. 

If the magnificent happens and we somehow get Alex Smith, much of our success will be tethered to Josh Gordon. In only 2 games, in noticeable rusty football shape, Josh has changed our passing attack. Without him, we aren't NEARLY as dangerous. Heck, Josh has gotten behind the defense more times in 2 weeks than anybody else all year it seems. Alex Smith is EXTREMELY accurate, and not just on the short stuff either. For us to make the kind of leap many of us yearn for, we need Josh. We're not going to be able to sign an allstar WR like him, as nobody of that caliber would EVER play for us. Alex can not only hit those deep shots, he can hit them IN STRIDE. Josh Gordon in stride is a site to behold. Heck, we've seen Kizer get Josh the rock once in stride and Josh turned into his own lead blocker and almost broke through 3 would-be tacklers. 

I give Josh's return to us about 5% for next year. We've been there and done that. I give Alex Smith about 10% chance of coming to Cleveland. Many fans won't want to hear this, but the only way we get good immediately is by signing Alex. The only chance we have at STAYING good is to develop another QB behind him that can take over when he hangs it up (Alex just turned 34 I believe). Do we draft a QB at 1 or with Texans pick and let them learn behind Alex? Can you really draft a QB that high and expect him to wait 3 years? Has that EVER happened? I can think of the Aaron Rodgers situation in Green Bay as the only comparison, but Aaron was picked around 22, which carries a MUCH different weight than being picked 1st or 5th. 

Obviously nobody knows what's going to happen, but it's fun to speculate. Alex Smith is my first choice, but there are others such as Kirk Cousins, Case Keenum, Teddy Twatwater, Sam Bradford, and maybe another I'm forgetting about. I just can't see us making the leap starting ANOTHER rookie, especially considering none of them are touted as "immediate saviors". If we draft one high, start him immediately, and let him learn on the fly as is customary, we're set to have yet another LONG year. I don't see Hue surviving that, Gregg making the cut, or anybody else on staff. We'd be starting over AGAIN. Not only that, we'd have a prized rookie learn one system (Hue's) and then learn ANOTHER one when the new coach comes to town. That's two systems in two years and we ALL KNOW that's how you RUIN young quarterbacks. 

I intentionally avoided discussing the defense, as this post was long enough. It can be argued that the defense was equally (if not MORE so) responsible for our dismal season, and that will HAVE to be seriously addressed if we're to make ANY improvements, drastic or otherwise. One thing is for sure, our team is going to look MUCH different next year, and don't be surprised if we have almost all new skill position players AND new secondary studs. 

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Tour2ma Contributor

Tour2ma

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If we land an Alex Smith caliber QB, the pressure to start a freshly drafted QB will be nil.

The only way the 2018 team can approach the level of Dorsey's bravado is to land a Smith caliber QB... plus 3 or so other significant FAs. And landing a vet QB who can make us competitive is key to attracting significant FAs at any price.

 

I get the feeling we are headed towards a "sugar high". Questions is are: how high and  how long of a one?

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Tacosman Newbie

Tacosman

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1 minute ago, Tour2ma said:

If we land an Alex Smith caliber QB, the pressure to start a freshly drafted QB will be nil.

The only way the 2018 team can approach the level of Dorsey's bravado is to land a Smith caliber QB... plus 3 or so other significant FAs. And landing a vet QB who can make us competitive is key to attracting significant FAs at any price.

 

I get the feeling we are headed towards a "sugar high". Questions is are: how high and  how long of a one?

in the absence of a manning/brady(whose presence alone guarantees eliteness) or a collection of very special talent like the seahawks defense when healthy, those are really the only type of highs in the nfl you can really count on.  Its the nature of the nfl and the way it is set up today.

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Clark W Griswold Newbie

Clark W Griswold

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Before you commit to Barkley early, you need to figure out whether he's a Gurley/Fournette quality back or whether he's an oasis like Trent Richardson.  His tendency to just give up and not fight for yards when he gets pinned down concerns me.  We saw an awful lot of that in the OSU game.

I wouldn't mind seeing a reversal this year with them using some of their picks to actually move up to snatch another first round pick to jump on a guy that slides unexpectedly (i.e. Malik Hooker last year).  This team needs horses now.

 

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