Josh Allen mechanics are very good.

[calfoxwc]

that is what this analyst guy says. I'm no analyst, etc etc, but the ability to throw as he does isn't all just arm strength. He's a tall, extremely athletic, very, very smart kid - loved by all in his hometown, college, fanbase, coaches, fellow players...

  given a chance - he can dominate a game. Even the best of qb's don't dominate games when they don't have those matchups that at least give them a chance on most plays.

  I"m hoping for an all-around leader, who loves the game, inspires all Browns fans with his play,and doesn't make an butt of himself off the field..who is durable, and hopefully, at least a good bit, sees the field like a Kosar, and has the heart of Kosar and Sipe.

  I just see Allen, Rudolph, Darnold and a few others later in the draft, and a few who are returning to school for their senior years, like Clayton Thorson and Drew Lock.  Allen does get rid of the ball maddingly (to defenders), quickly.

It's just me, I don't see completion percentage as being the end all indicator of greatnessin the jump to the NFL. Kessler had an outstanding completion percentage in college....but his leadership is outstanding. Darnold is also outstanding in leadership - they inspiregreat things from the players around them, they inspire their entire college/town/fanbase...it's who they are as people - they LOVE the game.

HERE IS THE THING - experts get it wrong a lot of the time - will a top qb prospect see the field/process the play happeninig..... like a Kosar or Brady or Peyton Brees etc etc... when he gets to the NFL? maybe not. That is probably the biggest question. ME, I'd love to have Kosar sit with three or four of the top qbs in this draft, and have him tell me who he thinks sees the field like he does. LOL.

  But the more I watch Rudolph - he is dramatically underrated. But I don't see him as the best qb in this draft. Here's a guy who thinks Rudolph and Jackson are the top two qbs...

nope - not seeing THAT at all.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2018-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-mason-rudolph-reclaims-top-qb-spot-roquan-smith-rising/

  Nah. Whoever the Browns pick, they need to have him be that end-all-the-nonsense great player that starts the winning going...which obviously to everybody...isn't Kizer. Poor Kizer - got benched in college in a non-pro style offense. That isn't good. He's good enough to keep around though, as a backup. He just doesn't see the field. Maybe he can improve that....but I think it's innate - you can or can't. Just my dumb opinion, that's all.

 

[jrb12711]

Dude, we get it. This isn't the political forum where you have to make a new thread to blow your load every day to prove your point. We know.

[The Gipper]

19 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

Dude, we get it. This isn't the political forum where you have to make a new thread to blow your load every day to prove your point. We know.

I suspect someone can find a video or article that says Josh Rosen's mechanics are very good.......or any other QB. 

[Mark O]

Great...his mechanics are good.   Big deal.  He completes only 56% of his passes in a very weak Mountain West conference.   Trust me, I know how weak it is...I watch it every single week, probably saw more games in the MW than any other conference.   

56% in college is going to translate to even less in the NFL when the speed of the game and the speed of the defenses is exponentially higher.  Just look at Kizer...he was inaccurate at Notre Dame and guess what....he was inaccurate in the NFL.  

Allen is a project...nothing more.  

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, jrb12711 said:

Dude, we get it. This isn't the political forum where you have to make a new thread to blow your load every day to prove your point. We know.

Ha, I'll just (maybe) rename this the "official Josh Allen Love Fest Thread. "

I knew Cal would get all warm and fuzzy after I posted that YouTube in another thread. I demand credit for seeing it first. That said, perfect mechanics don't necessarily translate to perfect accuracy. Kosar's mechanics were a mess, but he was able to throw one of the best deep balls in the NFL.

[calfoxwc]

Kessler's completion percentage was 67%.  It's a team game. If Elway himself went to Wyoming, do you

really think his percentage would have been any different? It's a TEAM game. A lot of eval of qb's, imho, has to do with

the competition they play vs the quality of starters they play with. In 2015, his completion percentage was 66.7

That is from this link:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/3918298/josh-allen

so, his first year, his completion percentage was a good bit better than any year Rosen has played at UCLA.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/josh-rosen-1.html

60.0

59.3

 (2017) 62.5 SO, Josh Allen had a higher completion percentage in his first year, than Rosen ever did in college.

SO, what does that mean, eh? LOL. He completed 4 of 6 passes, that's all. But seriously, completion percentage is just a smaller indicator - you have to take in consideration of what players he has on offense, what system, competition,... it is just a number.

 

[calfoxwc]

12 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Ha, I'll just (maybe) rename this the "official Josh Allen Love Fest Thread. "

I knew Cal would get all warm and fuzzy after I posted that YouTube in another thread. I demand credit for seeing it first. That said, perfect mechanics don't necessarily translate to perfect accuracy. Kosar's mechanics were a mess, but he was able to throw one of the best deep balls in the NFL.

   well, since you got all whiney redass, I did respond knee jerkly a bit, but I don't get the reasoning. Look above:

Josh Allen, his first year starting, had a higher completion percentage than Rosen ever has in college (see above LOL)

. I just decided to say whatever else there IS to say, ONLY in this one thread. And yes, I have seen that video before, but decided to post it with my responses since you brought it up.

[ChicopeeJohn]

7 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Ha, I'll just (maybe) rename this the "official Josh Allen Love Fest Thread. "

I knew Cal would get all warm and fuzzy after I posted that YouTube in another thread. I demand credit for seeing it first. That said, perfect mechanics don't necessarily translate to perfect accuracy. Kosar's mechanics were a mess, but he was able to throw one of the best deep balls in the NFL.

And, as I remember, you were a big Couch pumper prior to the Browns' return in 1999.  There are many more key variables than mechanics, completion %, etc.

It is hard to measure heart and dedication as a NFL pro.

History shows many hits in unexpected places and - just possibly - more misses in unexpected places.

Dorsey's #1, #2,#3, jobs are to find a Franchise QB in this draft - assuming there is one.

His #4 job will be to truly evaluate the HC position. 

 

 

[Bob806]

Todd McShay said on a radio interview that teams like Wyoming don't reload as well as the OSUs, Alabamas, FSUs, etc., so that may be a reason his stats went down. 

Could be an excuse, could be full of bull. All I know is I see an AFC North QB at Wyoming. 

[Mark O]

3 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Kessler's completion percentage was 67%.  It's a team game. If Elway himself went to Wyoming, do you

really think his percentage would have been any different? It's a TEAM game. A lot of eval of qb's, imho, has to do with

the competition they play vs the quality of starters they play with. In 2015, his completion percentage was 66.7

That is from this link:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/3918298/josh-allen

so, his first year, his completion percentage was a good bit better than any year Rosen has played at UCLA.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/josh-rosen-1.html

60.0

59.3

 (2017) 62.5 SO, Josh Allen had a higher completion percentage in his first year, than Rosen ever did in college.

SO, what does that mean, eh?

 

Sorry Cal... You misread the stats.

Allen completion percentage       2016   56.0%    2017   56.3%

Rosen completion percentage    2015  60%   2016  59.3%   2017   62.5%   

 

Those are from your own links.  I really hope you aren't counting Allen's first year as the year he completed 4 out of 6 passes as being the time he had a percentage higher than any time Rosen did in college.   The years that they both actually played a significant number of games, Rosen's is higher each year, plus Rosen has an extra year experience as a starter.   Also, did it against much, much, much, much better competition.   The Mountain West is nothing compared to the Pac 12. 

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, jrb12711 said:

Dude, we get it. This isn't the political forum where you have to make a new thread to blow your load every day to prove your point. We know.

  I'm not - I'm restricting Josh Allen stuff to this thread. I'll let multiple threads and posts all over about rosen fly. 

[calfoxwc]

Those are from your own links.  I really hope you aren't counting Allen's first year as the year he completed 4 out of 6 passes as being the time he had a percentage higher than any time Rosen did in college.   The years that they both actually played a significant number of games, Rosen's is higher each year, plus Rosen has an extra year experience as a starter.   Also, did it against much, much, much, much better competition.   The Mountain West is nothing compared to the Pac 12.  Mark

*****************************************************

   Sorry, but I was being facetious - I read them just fine, I used his first year completion percentage to mock the undue emphasis on the only stat - completion percentage. Rosen only played in six games in 2016. That is what I'm saying - what other factors play into how completion percentages figure? Suppose rosen played for Wyoming the last few years. Do you think he'd be famous? Do you think he would have fared better than Allen? Hardly. They couldn't run a prostyle offense at UCLA. They said they didn't have the players.

Well, they DID at Wyoming, but a pro style offense doesn't lend itself to the gawdy numbers that so many qb's get in playinga spread offense. Like Kessler - spread offense - he completed 66.7 percent of his passes. How did that translate into the NFL ?

[hoorta]

23 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Great...his mechanics are good.   Big deal.  He completes only 56% of his passes in a very weak Mountain West conference.   Trust me, I know how weak it is...I watch it every single week, probably saw more games in the MW than any other conference.   

56% in college is going to translate to even less in the NFL when the speed of the game and the speed of the defenses is exponentially higher.  Just look at Kizer...he was inaccurate at Notre Dame and guess what....he was inaccurate in the NFL.  

Allen is a project...nothing more.  

Yeah, some are seeing Roethlisber\Elway with that arm capable of tossing the rock 80 yards in the air. I'm not willing to bet the #1 overall he can improve on 56% completion percentage.

Did a little research on college stats completion %.

Elway: fr 52, then 65, 58.5, 65

Roethlisberger: 63, 63, 69.

And for kicks and giggles:

Wentz: (to be fair) 74% on 46 attempts fr & soph years, then 64, 63.

Seeing a trend here- if you want a cannon arm, he better be 60%+ completions in college. So yeah Cal go dig up all the HOF qbs that didn't meet that bar. FWIW, Kizer was exactly @ 60% at ND.

[Mark O]

10 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Well, they DID at Wyoming, but a pro style offense doesn't lend itself to the gawdy numbers that so many qb's get in playinga spread offense. Like Kessler - spread offense - he completed 66.7 percent of his passes. How did that translate into the NFL ?

Kessler stinks and is too small and has a noodle arm and was never going to translate to the NFL.   Allen is basically a white Kizer.   Big arm but doesn't know where it's going most of the time.   56% is 56% you can't spin that any other way.    Its not going to get better at the next level when he's not playing against the creampuffs in the Mountain West.  

He's just not accurate enough, maybe someday he will be but I would bet against it.  

[hoorta]

8 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Those are from your own links.  I really hope you aren't counting Allen's first year as the year he completed 4 out of 6 passes as being the time he had a percentage higher than any time Rosen did in college.   The years that they both actually played a significant number of games, Rosen's is higher each year, plus Rosen has an extra year experience as a starter.   Also, did it against much, much, much, much better competition.   The Mountain West is nothing compared to the Pac 12.  Mark

*****************************************************

   Sorry, but I was being facetious - I read them just fine, I used his first year completion percentage to mock the undue emphasis on the only stat - completion percentage. Rosen only played in six games in 2016. That is what I'm saying - what other factors play into how completion percentages figure? Suppose rosen played for Wyoming the last few years. Do you think he'd be famous? Do you think he would have fared better than Allen? Hardly. They couldn't run a prostyle offense at UCLA. They said they didn't have the players.

Well, they DID at Wyoming, but a pro style offense doesn't lend itself to the gawdy numbers that so many qb's get in playinga spread offense. Like Kessler - spread offense - he completed 66.7 percent of his passes. How did that translate into the NFL ?

Well Cal, I'll grant you Wyoming lost some players 2017. What I saw was shades of Deshone Kizer, Allen would follow up a highlight reel throw with a toss that wasn't in the same area code as a wide open receiver. Consistently is not his selling point.

[Unsympathetic]

Moving from one inaccurate QB who "We Promise" will fix that issue in the pros..... to another inaccurate QB who promises to fix that one issue.

Only in Cleveland..

[calfoxwc]

Hoorta, you are missing the point. Do you think if Allen plays for the steelers, that he'd have a problem throwing a intermediate pass to a wide open bryant? If he plays for the patriots, that he'd have trouble throwing an intermediate pass to a wide open gronk?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaaol

Offense

Adj. LY

Rk

Std. Downs Line Yards

Rk

Pass. Downs Line Yards

Rk

Opp. Rate

Rk

Power Success Rate

Rk

Stuff Rate

Rk

Adj Sack Rate

Rk

Std. Downs Sack Rate

Rk

Pass. Downs Sack Rate

Rk

UCLA

93.5

105

2.70

98

2.87

103

36.3%

94

79.2%

9

21.5%

98

149.5

20

3.9

40

5.4

33

Wyoming

84.8

125

2.62

107

2.88

102

32.9%

119

54.5%

126

22.7%

116

78.6

99

6.8

96

8.2

76

[LogicIsForSquares]

38 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

Todd McShay said on a radio interview that teams like Wyoming don't reload as well as the OSUs, Alabamas, FSUs, etc., so that may be a reason his stats went down. 

Could be an excuse, could be full of bull. All I know is I see an AFC North QB at Wyoming. 

He had no change whatsoever in his completion percentage between last year and this year. Allen's conference didn't change. Mountain West isn't teeming with talent.  The windows Allen threw into will only get smaller in the pros. What leads anyone to believe that Allen would get more accurate in the pros?

[Mark O]

1 minute ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

He had no change whatsoever in his completion percentage between last year and this year. Allen's conference didn't change. Mountain West isn't teeming with talent.  The windows Allen threw into will only get smaller in the pros. What leads anyone to believe that Allen would get more accurate in the pros?

Only Cal believes that.     He's going to get better playing in the NFL than he did playing against the creampuffs in the Mountain West.

[calfoxwc]

Looking above, where the offensive lines rank, UCLA vs WYOMING..... in most categories, UCLA had a far

better offensive line. Meaning, more competitive in their conference, than Wyoming's was in theirs.

Only one category was nearly the same - passing downs lines yards. Which, doesn't tell me what the heck that is... LOL

but many things have to be taken into consideration. Completion percentage is just a number, not a complete eval all by itself.

Better oline, better wr's, better te, better rb, better college offense type, better coach, better playcalling... surely gives a qb an advantage in completion percentage. I just find fault with using just the number, and saying that that makes or breaks a qb pick for the pros.

Just not seein it.

[calfoxwc]

4 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

He had no change whatsoever in his completion percentage between last year and this year. Allen's conference didn't change. Mountain West isn't teeming with talent.  The windows Allen threw into will only get smaller in the pros. What leads anyone to believe that Allen would get more accurate in the pros?

which means... he still took them to a bowl game, when he didn't have anywhere near as good as them offensive line? etc?

I wonder how many of the teams Wyoming played had a pro style offense..... good question.

[LogicIsForSquares]

2 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

which means... he still took them to a bowl game, when he didn't have anywhere near as good as them offensive line? etc?

I think this is more of an indictment of the opposing competition than it does promote Wyoming. A QB with a 56% accuracy managed to win enough games in the Mountain West to make a bowl game.

Completion percentage is one of those things where having a good one does not automatically make a QB good or even average. But a bad one is a clear indicator of a college QB that will not work out in the pros. 

[calfoxwc]

not when you play in a pro style offense, which UCLA couldn't make work. The spread offenses are noted to

gawdy stats. Even for qb's that don't have the physical skills for the NFL, like I have mentioned before - Kessler had 66.7 % completion percentage. It was not in a pro style offense.

[Mark O]

4 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

I think this is more of an indictment of the opposing competition than it does promote Wyoming. A QB with a 56% accuracy managed to win enough games in the Mountain West to make a bowl game.

Completion percentage is one of those things where having a good one does not automatically make a QB good or even average. But a bad one is a clear indicator of a college QB that will not work out in the pros. 

6 wins is all you need to be bowl eligible.   Nearly half of the D1 football teams get in a bowl game so that's not some great accomplishment. 

And your 2nd point is exactly right on and precisely the point on Allen and Kizer.  They were inaccurate in college, it's not going to get better as a pro.   Kessler as Cal likes to point out had a great completion percentage and probably would in the NFL as well if he could avoid a concussion when putting on his helmet.  But Kessler can't or won't throw the ball more than 5 yards at a time so it's easy to complete a lot of those.

[LogicIsForSquares]

For full disclosure, I am concerned with Rosen's injury history. So this isn't some crusade to bag on Allen because I am someone who is rah-rahing for Rosen. None of the QBs have blown my hair back. Rosen has all the tools but I have my misgivings about a QB with a concussion history coming to Cleveland. 

[Nero]

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

Todd McShay said on a radio interview that teams like Wyoming don't reload as well as the OSUs, Alabamas, FSUs, etc., so that may be a reason his stats went down. 

Could be an excuse, could be full of bull. All I know is I see an AFC North QB at Wyoming. 

Could you explain me the meaning of "reload"? Thanks, I am a bit lost on that concept.

[LogicIsForSquares]

Just now, Nero said:

Could you explain me the meaning of "reload"? Thanks, I am a bit lost on that concept.

In this context, it is when a college team recruits talent to replace the talent that likely went pro. Some bum team with a bunch of guys that just graduated and moved on to selling insurance likely don't have to worry about a "reload". They would have had to "load" to begin with haha.

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

Todd McShay said on a radio interview that teams like Wyoming don't reload as well as the OSUs, Alabamas, FSUs, etc., so that may be a reason his stats went down. 

Could be an excuse, could be full of bull. All I know is I see an AFC North QB at Wyoming. 

Yeah, and Sashi saw an AFC North qb in Kizer.  

46 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Looking above, where the offensive lines rank, UCLA vs WYOMING..... in most categories, UCLA had a far

better offensive line. Meaning, more competitive in their conference, than Wyoming's was in theirs.

Only one category was nearly the same - passing downs lines yards. Which, doesn't tell me what the heck that is... LOL

but many things have to be taken into consideration. Completion percentage is just a number, not a complete eval all by itself.

Better oline, better wr's, better te, better rb, better college offense type, better coach, better playcalling... surely gives a qb an advantage in completion percentage. I just find fault with using just the number, and saying that that makes or breaks a qb pick for the pros.

Just not seein it.

Weren't you just saying Wyoming's coach was the same guy who developed Wentz? Cal, it's a level playing field. Allen was facing defenses that weren't anywhere near as good as what Rosen and Darnold were facing in the Pac 12 either. Darnold made as many pretty throws to guys being defended by NFL caliber talent as Allen was to guys who will be raising cattle (New Mexico) or growing cabbage (Fresno State) when they graduate from their respective schools. If we're locking in on completion %- you're so locked in on "character" you wouldn't give Allen the time of day if he has Rosen's personality- I freaking guarantee it. I'll give you another stat that some (like Bill Parcells) consider a major predictor of pro success. # of seasons and games played in college. So rule out Rosen, Darnold, and Allen, and GASP! Hitch your wagon to Baker Mayfield and Mason Rudolph both 4 year starters with higher completion percentages than your dreamboat.

Finally, running a pro style offense in college doesn't mean diddly translating to pro success, because very, very few colleges currently run one. Mariotta- nah, Watson- nah. I could go on. 

PS- Just thought of this one, another small school guy with a big arm that turned into a pretty decent pro.   

Joe Flacco, Delaware State: forget the 4 passes he threw as a freshman. Completions 63%, 63%. 

44 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

which means... he still took them to a bowl game, when he didn't have anywhere near as good as them offensive line? etc?

I wonder how many of the teams Wyoming played had a pro style offense..... good question.

Confused? I hope you meant pro style defense. Already said above- Allen wasn't facing Pac 12 or SEC defenses either, being surrounded by his "inferior" talent. Regarding that mechanical breakdown- hope you noticed some of it was when Wyoming was playing Gardner-Webb. I said way back I was willing to bet you a root beer or two, you couldn't even tell me what state Gardner-Webb was located in without looking it up. 

[The Gipper]

55 minutes ago, Nero said:

Could you explain me the meaning of "reload"? Thanks, I am a bit lost on that concept.

When a college replaces  talent lost to graduation or to turning pro with new young talent that may be equally talented.  Reloading is what the top programs in the country do....like Alabama, Ohio St.  USC, Clemson do or attempt to do. 

E.g.   a couple of years ago Ohio State lost say a Joey Bosa to the Pros...but they replaced him with the Sam Hubbard's, Nick Bosa's, Chase Youngs. Exciting new young talent that keeps the winning tradition up. 

You know....it is kind of like say, Man U.  getting really good players to replace ones they may have lost somehow.

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I suspect someone can find a video or article that says Josh Rosen's mechanics are very good.......or any other QB. 

Not for Rudolph...