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Trade down this year would be a great this


Babernakle
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Before you lose your Sheet let me explain.  😁 First what would be our first pick a qb and what would we be drafting the hope that the qb will develop.  Well let's say Kirk cousins is a free agent because Washington is stupid.  Kirk ranks third in qbs the past two years we know he's good and is proven.  So they get Kirk.  Now we trade number 1 too whom ever for maybe a 123maybe even a 4th or more pick so now we have our qb and can load the team with talent. 

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To getting the best WR, RB maybe more I could live with that. The BROWNS already have enough draft picks to end up with a few starters and key role players. QB? Not necessarily the answer, get a lower pick to develop. 

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20 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

To getting the best WR, RB maybe more I could live with that. The BROWNS already have enough draft picks to end up with a few starters and key role players. QB? Not necessarily the answer, get a lower pick to develop. 

Wut

 

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If they can get a proven vet QB who can be the guy for at least 5 years, definitely trade down from 1. If they grab a middle of the road 1-2 year bridge starter, it’s gonna be a QB at 1. 

Im not willing to give up on Kizer yet, and think he performed well given the situation he was in and the history of how bad 21 year old QBs are in the NFL.  Turns out, Kizer has a better completion percentage as a 21 year old rookie than drew Bledsoe, mike Vick, Matt Stafford and Alex Smith. That doesn’t mean that he’s guaranteed to develop into a legit starter, just that a bad season is par for the course when you’re one of the youngest QBs to ever start in the NFL. 

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Kizer has a long way to go... many issues to overcome, but it is his inconsistent touch touch really concerns me.

 

Back with the OP... many paths are open. I'm not a Cousins guy, but he only costs money. That said there are still enough holes in this team that we will not be fixed after the 2018 off-season.

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20 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Kizer has a long way to go... many issues to overcome, but it is his inconsistent touch touch really concerns me.

 

Back with the OP... many paths are open. I'm not a Cousins guy, but he only costs money. That said there are still enough holes in this team that we will not be fixed after the 2018 off-season.

Kizer is a long way off from being a starter, but he has the tools. To me touch is a lot easier to work on than throwing lasers downfield. One is capped by physical traits, the other is a matter of reps and training.

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26 minutes ago, RoyceRolls said:

Kizer is a long way off from being a starter, but he has the tools. To me touch is a lot easier to work on than throwing lasers downfield. One is capped by physical traits, the other is a matter of reps and training.

Agree you can't teach arm strength, but by the time you are a pro, if you don't recognize and adjust pace and trajectory effortlessly, then I think the odds are very much against you developing it. To me it screams "depth perception issues".

Maybe he needs corrective lenses...

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2 hours ago, RoyceRolls said:

Kizer is a long way off from being a starter, but he has the tools. To me touch is a lot easier to work on than throwing lasers downfield. One is capped by physical traits, the other is a matter of reps and training.

Dude I'm with you. All I remember is how everybody labelled Goff a bust after last year. Four receivers later the Rams are on the upswing. Yup, Kizer didn't exactly shine, but there were times he showed me a lot.

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2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree you can't teach arm strength, but by the time you are a pro, if you don't recognize and adjust pace and trajectory effortlessly, then I think the odds are very much against you developing it. To me it screams "depth perception issues".

Maybe he needs corrective lenses...

It is a concern, but I feel that there are a lot of guys who have developed their game in the NFL.  Drew brees, Matt Stafford, and Alex smith have all increased their comp% by double digits over the course of their careers. 

Also, I feel that Kizer is too young and under too much pressure to have the patience to throw with touch. It seems like every throw he makes is a “GO GO GO GO!!!” situation. Maybe Kizer will flame out, but letting him develop his game behind a guy like Alex Smith (who has increased his comp % by 17 points in his career) would allow the Browns to vastly improve the team around them and better both guy’s chances at success...

I will say this, however. I’d be shocked if Dorsey doesn’t draft a QB at 1 overall. Shocked to the point I would jump in the lake with uncle fester if they moved forward with a depth chart of Smith, Kizer, Hogan in 2018. 

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9 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Wut

 

-OR- pick a QB at #1 and start him in place of Kizer and see what happens? I'd try something else like maybe a FA or trade down for one of the several quarterbacks that will be there.

But I'll guess we'll have to wait and see what happens between now and April 26.

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10 hours ago, Babernakle said:

Before you lose your Sheet let me explain.  😁 First what would be our first pick a qb and what would we be drafting the hope that the qb will develop.  Well let's say Kirk cousins is a free agent because Washington is stupid.  Kirk ranks third in qbs the past two years we know he's good and is proven.  So they get Kirk.  Now we trade number 1 too whom ever for maybe a 123maybe even a 4th or more pick so now we have our qb and can load the team with talent. 

Here's the problem I have with the "Get Cousins" crowd. OK, he's (probably) in the top five, certainly in the top 10 in QBs. He's going to demand to get paid like one too. I've said elsewhere, it's highly probable the the Redskins are going to let Kirk walk- they're tired of his antics. If he really wanted to be in Washington- he would have inked a long term deal last year, instead of taking the Franchise tag. That also tells me- he won't be interested in going to a rebuild project like the Browns, and take less money to play on a team that's just a QB away from a potential Super Bowl run. LOL! That's not Cleveland.  The likely landing spots- Jacksonville and Denver will have to do some cap finagling to make a serious bid. Also, as good as Cousins is- I don't see Washington in the playoffs this year- even if we did get him, you're not going to see any instant miracles, and with that long term contract- you're married to him for at least the next 4 years at the expense of having qbs like Darnold or Rosen to develop behind a bridge starter.  

And looking at the cap room table- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2018/ Kansas City has issues there- so if they're convinced Mahomes is their QBOTF, they'll be more than willing to unload Smith and his $22 million contract- at the right price. 

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24 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Smith for a 3rd rounder...then draft whatever QB at #1 likely....and have Smith groom him.

Gip, if we can get Smith for a third rounder, I'd be dancing in the street. Don't think we'd be able to get him that cheap. Will be some interest from other teams. Could you live with the Eagles low second rounder and a future third?

The rest is my thinking exactly.

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36 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Gip, if we can get Smith for a third rounder, I'd be dancing in the street. Don't think we'd be able to get him that cheap. Will be some interest from other teams. Could you live with the Eagles low second rounder and a future third?

The rest is my thinking exactly.

Well....I believe a third rounder is "fair market value" for him around the NFL.     But...in the world if the Cleveland Browns...who always have to overpay because no one has respect for our owner/GMs (of the past)/ HC.....it would probably take more.

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21 hours ago, alporcini said:

Dude I'm with you. All I remember is how everybody labelled Goff a bust after last year. Four receivers later the Rams are on the upswing. Yup, Kizer didn't exactly shine, but there were times he showed me a lot.

It's funny, I kept telling myself that.  And sometimes, I actually convince myself Kizer is going to be the guy.  I mean, he got a TON of experience this year, and if it doesn't kill him (which it might figuratively), he might get much stronger.  I think about the knowledge of coming into camp knowing the language, the blocking schemes, the plays, and the players.  Knowing how to call a play exactly and where people line up.  A lot of fans want us to draft a QB with the #1 or #4 pick, and I totally get that.  But to me, I don't think it's very realistic to think they could beat out Kizer for the job.  Now, if Kizer still turns it over in the red zone and does the dumb stuff, I could see it, but I have to believe that MOST of that will be gone.  I'm not saying Kizer WILL BE the guy, but I will say it wouldn't totally shock me if he keeps the job.  He works hard, he's got the perfect build, you KNOW this means a lot to him, and maybe, just MAYBE...he'll have Josh Gordon all year and another WR who can actually catch.  

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20 hours ago, RoyceRolls said:

It is a concern, but I feel that there are a lot of guys who have developed their game in the NFL.  Drew brees, Matt Stafford, and Alex smith have all increased their comp% by double digits over the course of their careers. 

Also, I feel that Kizer is too young and under too much pressure to have the patience to throw with touch. It seems like every throw he makes is a “GO GO GO GO!!!” situation. Maybe Kizer will flame out, but letting him develop his game behind a guy like Alex Smith (who has increased his comp % by 17 points in his career) would allow the Browns to vastly improve the team around them and better both guy’s chances at success...

I will say this, however. I’d be shocked if Dorsey doesn’t draft a QB at 1 overall. Shocked to the point I would jump in the lake with uncle fester if they moved forward with a depth chart of Smith, Kizer, Hogan in 2018. 

Agree on the QB early for us this draft unless we should sign Cousins, which I do not foresee. I know I'd spend the #1 overall on one, but Dorsey's tastes reportedly differ from mine, so...

Brees, Stafford and Smith aren't the only QBs to improve their stats, but I doubt "touch" development has been a major contributor to their improvement. Maybe in Stafford's case, he came into the league as a fairly strong-armed QB, but not Brees and Smith. Biggest contributor to a pro QB's progress is almost always Defense recognition.

Might Kizer still improve? Sure, but lotta areas, basic areas, like touch, before we get to the grad level stuff.

55 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well....I believe a third rounder is "fair market value" for him around the NFL.

What are your comps?

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8 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree on the QB early for us this draft unless we should sign Cousins, which I do not foresee. I know I'd spend the #1 overall on one, but Dorsey's tastes reportedly differ from mine, so...

Brees, Stafford and Smith aren't the only QBs to improve their stats, but I doubt "touch" development has been a major contributor to their improvement. Maybe in Stafford's case, he came into the league as a fairly strong-armed QB, but not Brees and Smith. Biggest contributor to a pro QB's progress is almost always Defense recognition.

Might Kizer still improve? Sure, but lotta areas, basic areas, like touch, before we get to the grad level stuff.

You're preaching to the choir there Tour. Kizer has shown he can't throw an accurate end zone fade to save his life- and I've been ragging on his glaring lack of accuracy and inconsistency from day one. 

He'll stick on the roster next year- probably as the #2 qb behind whoever we get as a FA starter, while Darnold\Rosen whoever sit and learn...   

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On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 11:25 AM, Babernakle said:

Before you lose your Sheet let me explain.  😁 First what would be our first pick a qb and what would we be drafting the hope that the qb will develop.  Well let's say Kirk cousins is a free agent because Washington is stupid.  Kirk ranks third in qbs the past two years we know he's good and is proven.  So they get Kirk.  Now we trade number 1 too whom ever for maybe a 123maybe even a 4th or more pick so now we have our qb and can load the team with talent. 

It is my knee-jerk reaction - I haven't looked at the evidence one way or the other - that GOOD teams can trade up or trade down.  Good teams generally have good organizations and good organizations make good decisions.

Bad teams draft earlier but, somehow, stay bottom feeders, oftentimes because they 'are preyed upon' by good organizations.  Multiple picks are great IF you can draft NFL-caliber players.  One pick can be more than enough IF you can draft NFL caliber players.

If I were the Browns, I'd stay pat.  They need players all over the map and, hopefully, they can find another Clay Matthews / Ozzie Newsome type of draft.  They have plenty of picks this year and next (I believe).  Chits - alone - can be worthless.

I know it was a different organization but the Browns passed up a goldmine in 1999 (the infamous Ditka trade) and, instead, stayed put to get one year out of Tim Couch. 

 

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53 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

A nice 3BR bungalow on about a quarter acre with a one car garage, 2 baths, central air,  in an older gentrified neigborhood. 

Say, make that a two car garage, fancy updated interior in a gated neighborhood, and give it to the new

fa qb to entice him to give us a chance at going to the playoffs next season ! (the Browns ARE going to the playoffs next season,

you know)

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6 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Say, make that a two car garage, fancy updated interior in a gated neighborhood, and give it to the new

fa qb to entice him to give us a chance at going to the playoffs next season ! (the Browns ARE going to the playoffs next season,

you know)

Something like that would not be "gentrified then...would it".  Although, if it were in Bratenahl it might be considered that.

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I may be wrong, but I do believe that any year you can get a bundle of draft picks, including a #1 the following year, you will be better off in the long run doing the deal every time.  With maybe the exception of a Luck or Manning staring you in the face.  Could Rosen be that guy?  Maybe?  But any of the others, I truly doubt.

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I think our Brownies should be able to make a good QB deal out of thiis:

A ton of NFL Draft capital and some interesting tidbits:

  • 2 picks in the Top 5
  • 4 picks in the Top 35
  • 5 picks in the Top 60
  • 7 Picks in the Top 108 (Huge in a deep Draft where Top 100 picks are held in high esteem, Browns own a normal full Drafts of picks by pick #108)
  • 4 sets of picks clustered near each other: 1 & 4, 33 & 35, 60 & 65 and 137 & 145
  • 12 picks overall, though it wouldn't be a shock to see a few dealt for veterans or to move up.
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10 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree on the QB early for us this draft unless we should sign Cousins, which I do not foresee. I know I'd spend the #1 overall on one, but Dorsey's tastes reportedly differ from mine, so...

Brees, Stafford and Smith aren't the only QBs to improve their stats, but I doubt "touch" development has been a major contributor to their improvement. Maybe in Stafford's case, he came into the league as a fairly strong-armed QB, but not Brees and Smith. Biggest contributor to a pro QB's progress is almost always Defense recognition.

Might Kizer still improve? Sure, but lotta areas, basic areas, like touch, before we get to the grad level stuff.

What are your comps?

As I said earlier, I think Kizers biggest problem was that he was in over his head and rushed. A guy who doesn’t have the experience to take what the defense is giving him/is always trying to play Superman won’t be able to reign in his mechanics. It’s the same in any sport, when you’re comfortable and confident you can allow muscle memory to take over, but when you’re flustered or unfocused it fuks your mechanics.  Not saying that a comfortable/confident Kizer can be accurate, but a guy in way over his head has absolutely not chance at consistency. 

 

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9 hours ago, RoyceRolls said:

As I said earlier, I think Kizers biggest problem was that he was in over his head and rushed. A guy who doesn’t have the experience to take what the defense is giving him/is always trying to play Superman won’t be able to reign in his mechanics. It’s the same in any sport, when you’re comfortable and confident you can allow muscle memory to take over, but when you’re flustered or unfocused it fuks your mechanics.  Not saying that a comfortable/confident Kizer can be accurate, but a guy in way over his head has absolutely not chance at consistency. 

 

Or what happens when you START a young rookie QB with little NCAA experience in the rough real world of the NFL.

Kizer will be better next year......if they have/get some deep threat WRs who don't drop everything. Wouldn't want the current bunch in my kitchen....*BANG, CRASH, BOOM* :lol:

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