Anderson over Quinn

[Zombo]

Just watched a segment on ESPN with Chris Carter and Marcellus Wiley and they were asked who should start at Browns QB.

 

They both picked Anderson.

 

Wiley sited the fact that Anderson has won 10 games with this team and has the confidence of his teammates. He didn't feel the team's response to Quinn being inserted last year was that positive.

 

Carter felt that Quinn is over-rated and that Anderson shouldn't be blamed for all dropped balls, injuries, and other extreme offensive problems that brought the Browns down last year.

 

I'm not saying I agree with their conclusions, I still think Quinn wins out with more consistent passing, but I put much more stock in these kinds of analysis rather than the usual "Joey-ization" of Quinn we get on the this board (He's big, he's fast, he's strong, he's mobile, he's smart, he's hard-working...)

 

We all know Quinn looks the part. But Anderson has done the part. And Quinn has to prove (i.e. win football games by making plays) he can do it better.

 

Zombo

[ballpeen]

The draft slide taken by Brady is an indication there were at least a few teams who didn't have him rated all that high.

 

What one has to remember, if BQ was viewed as a great qb prospect, even if teams didn't need a qb, many would have taken him anyway as you just don't pass on a lucky break like that.

 

That isn't to say BQ won't win the job or won't do a great job. It is only said to remind people that BQ isn't some slam dunk prospect. The chances of him being just better than Chuck Frye are better than him being just below Peyton Manning.

[Skinny]

And this didn't fit in any other thread we have going on DA vs BQ?

[Zombo]

And this didn't fit in any other thread we have going on DA vs BQ?

 

Umm ... I simply started another one because I wanted to.

 

It's a week before training camp and we have a legit QB competition.

 

You looking for a Hank Fraley thread?

 

Zombo

[Skinny]

Sorry just get a little annoyed sometimes when I see 3 or for threads all reading the same way. And my baby boy has a fever and DIDNT SLEEP SO I AM xxxxING TIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WPB Dawg Fan]

I wonder if Carter thinks DA should be blamed for his late season meltdown in 2007??? Or how about the fact that Seattle and the NY Giants are the only team over .500 that he has beaten to date????

 

I am not totally against DA, and in fact his big arm may help keep the DB's honest and let us do the power run game....but to think that he has somehow proven anything when he has had 3 games over a 90QBR since week 8 in 2007 (a 17 game stretch)....that is a bit scary.

 

As for respect of teammates. Not sure how anyone outside the club could really prove that. Especially considering the non-committed quotes and actual backing of Quinn we have heard.

 

Further, I am not sure what Carter is basing Quinn being overrated on. We have a total of 3 games worth of experience to base it on...1 game with 3 days prep, and 2 playing with an injured finger on his throwing hand that eventually required surgery.

 

If anything, say he is unproven (which he is unproven).

[hammertime]

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[Zombo]

I wonder if Carter thinks DA should be blamed for his late season meltdown in 2007??? Or how about the fact that Seattle and the NY Giants are the only team over .500 that he has beaten to date????

 

You know, you're supposed to beat the bad teams. That's part of your job. You're supposed to smoke the Rams.

 

Anderson lined up against 15 NFL teams that year and we beat ten of them.

 

In the end, we fell one game short of the playoffs, but this Browns team was not the 85 Bears, folks. They ranked 30th in defense. Sure Anderson stunk in the second Bengal game. But if Dawson isn't blocked agains the Raiders, or he makes a field goal against the Steelers, or Winslow is in bounds against the Cardinals, or if the Colts play their starters versus Tenn ... we were in the playoffs with that #30 defense. Sure, we'd love an interception back. But what about a missed tackle or blown assignment on defense? Team game ... team game.

 

So before Anderson we lost to the bad teams and got clobbered by the good teams.

 

Then, with Anderson, we beat the bad teams and lost close games to the good teams.

 

Yes ... sounds like Anderson's fault.

 

Further, I am not sure what Carter is basing Quinn being overrated on. We have a total of 3 games worth of experience to base it on...1 game with 3 days prep, and 2 playing with an injured finger on his throwing hand that eventually required surgery.

 

If anything, say he is unproven (which he is unproven).

 

He's basing it on the same things Camp BQ bases their love on: his college games, preseason games, film and scouting reports.

 

If one guy can say he's head & shoulders better than Anderson through that analysis, than another guy has the right to say he ain't gonna be good through that analysis.

 

But I agree with you ... he's unproven.

 

Zombo

[Greythan]

How does this

and has the confidence of his teammates. He didn't feel the team's response to Quinn being inserted last year was that positive.

and this

but I put much more stock in these kinds of analysis

jive? You really think Wiley has solid insider information to support that opinion? Baloney. Maybe, just maybe, he spoke to one guy.

 

I understand your anti-Shep role to keep him in check. I personnally just discount much of Shep's exhuburance that he tries to mask as analysis. Its cool, he's a fan.

 

However, I neither of the guys you mention are good analysts. They're ex players which gives them a better foundation than we have for their opinions, but that comes at the cost of not watching as much Browns football as we do. I doubt either spent a second of time analyzing film and/or interviewing players as background for the segment. I don't put much stock in it at all.

 

What I "know" is that I'm concerned about DA's ceiling and that its not high enough for us to win a SB. The other thing I know is that we have an unproven commodity in Quinn. When I add those two things together, I want to see what Quinn can do or (if the staff already thinks DA is better) get rid of him.

 

Finally, using Quinn's slide in the draft in any argument comparing him to DA is ludicrous. How do you explain DA's "slide" to the 6th round? Yeah, I know he's a proven winner who won 10 games two years ago and went to the Pro Bowl. Well, at the NFL level we have no idea what Quinn is. Prior to DA's breakout year, he was an unknown too. The difference? NFL evaluators felt that Quinn warranted a 1st round selection (maybe he slides into the 2nd round if we don't take him?) while DA was barely drafted. Nothing too significant in that, but its a data point.

[WPB Dawg Fan]

I don't know if this has ever been posted...but I think it says a lot...and the final analysis is what I believe 99% of Browns fans can identify with:

 

Quinn vs. Anderson: Brian Daboll May Hold the Key

Posted by: clayton

 

Make no mistake; Eric Mangini calls the shots for the Browns, including the ongoing quarterback situation, however, offensive coordinator Brian Daboll may hold the key to unlock who gets the starting position.

 

That key is how Daboll foresees the passing game this coming season. Daboll, a Canadian who is currently 34 years old, has extensive coaching experience including a stint as offensive coordinator at Rochester, 7 years with the New England Patriots (he was the wide receivers coach from 2002 to 2006), and one season with Mangini in New York as the quarterbacks coach.

 

As a player, Daboll was a letterman at Rochester.

 

The consensus is that Daboll favous an offensive scheme which concentrates on short and intermediate passes. That kind of offensive strategy places more emphasis at the QB position on timing and accuracy and less focus on raw arm strength. It is likely that Brady Quinn is the beneficiary of such a strategy as he lacks the brute arm that Anderson has.

 

Somewhat surprisingly, though, both Quinn and Anderson had stats in 2008 that illustrate a focus on short passes. For Quinn, who had a 66.6 rating, his yards per attempt was 5.82. Anderson, whose rating was a fraction worse at 66.5, his yards per attempt was actually lower than Brady’s at 5.71. Quinn’s yards per completion was 11.51 while Anderson’s was again slightly lower than Quinn’s at 11.37. Brady’s completion percentage was 50.6 while Derek’s was a touch worse at 50.2. Both threw just as many interceptions as touchdowns (2 each for Brady, and 9 touchdowns and 8 picks for Anderson).

 

The only stats where we start to see a real difference last season between Anderson and Quinn are in terms of sacks and long completions. Derek was sacked 14 times in 10 games - an average of 1.4 sacks per game. Quinn was sacked once in 3 games. It is difficult to draw much from that because of Quinn’s relatively limited game starts in 2008, but on its face Quinn did better than Anderson in terms of avoiding opposing pass rushers and/or getting the football out earlier. Brady’s longest pass in his 3 games was for 42 yards, while Derek’s longest was for 70 yards.

 

Both were very inconsistent last season. Brady had a truly remarkable game against the Broncos. I remember watching that game at a restaurant while on vacation with my family in San Francisco. Quinn was terrific, and the Browns would have won that game but for a defensive collapse near the end. Brady’s QB rating that game was 104.3; his completion percentage was 65.7; he threw two TDs and zero picks. The next week against the Bills, however, Brady’s stats dropped to a 55.9 rating; a 38.9 completion percentage and 0 touchdowns. The same can be said for Anderson, actually to an even greater degree. The Monday night game against the Giants was reminiscent of his Pro Bowl season - a 121.3 rating; 62.1 completion percentage; 2 touchdowns and nil ITs. Compare that to week 12 against the Texans when Derek put on one of the most pathetic displays of quarterbacking I have ever seen, EVER! An abysmal 17.3 QB rating; 51 total yards; and 35.7 completion percentage; zero TDs and 1 pick. If your QB rating is below 60 in the NFL, you need some serious relection. Anderson’s rating dipped below 60 four times in 2008 (almost half the number of games that he played).

 

Statistics aside, however, there is no question that Anderson likes the long-ball. He has a gunslinger arm and likes to use it - that is natural. Quinn, on the other hand, has average to slightly below average arm strength but better mobility. He may have better timing and accuracy and a superior ability to read defenses and pass in the flats and underneath coverage; that is yet to be determined for certain. But if he does, and if he shows that during training camp, he will fit more neatly into Daboll’s tendency to favour the short and intermediate passing game. That gives Brady an advantage over Anderson.

 

I have heard and read many times that “Anderson is just a better quarterback than Quinn”. Where does that come from? Certainly not from 2008. It cannot come from 2007 because Brady did not play that season, and you cannot compare Derek’s Pro Bowl season to nothing. It does not come from intangibles like leadership ability and giving the Team a spark because Anderson showed neither in 2008 and little of that in 2007. I have no idea where it comes from, but I would be happy if someone could educate me on that.

 

In any event, I frankly don’t give a damn who the starter is in 2009. I just want it to be the better QB based on two things: last season and training camp.

 

Go Browns!

 

GO BROWNS!!!

[Zombo]

Can't say I put more stock in the words of Chris Carter and Marcellus Wiley, two ex jocks whose only reason they are "analysts" is that they used to play the game and can actually put coherent sentances together.

 

Marcellus Wiley has an Ivy League degree. Columbia. Started ten years in the NFL and is a former Pro Bowler.

 

Chris Carter caught more passes from NFL QBs than everyone but two people in history.

 

I'm sure Shep and Drunkandstoopid are more qualified to deliver NFL QB analysis.

 

Zombo

[Greythan]

He's basing it on the same things Camp BQ bases their love on: his college games, preseason games, film and scouting reports.

Bet you a $100 that Carter didn't do an iota of research. Doesn't mean his opinion is worth something, but let's not pretend he broke down hours of college film and spoke to scouts about their reports on Quinn prior to this ESPN "segment".

 

What Carter did was catch parts of a few ND games when Quinn was there, watch part of the 3 games that Quinn played last year, and watched the same talking heads discussing Quinn on TV over the past few years. Oh, maybe he had a 2 minute conversation with a Browns player too.

 

Let's not get carried away with Chris Carter "the analyst". (Or any "analyst" for that matter. They all bat under .500 it seems.)

[WPB Dawg Fan]

Bet you a $100 that Carter didn't do an iota of research. Doesn't mean his opinion is worth something, but let's not pretend he broke down hours of college film and spoke to scouts about their reports on Quinn prior to this ESPN "segment".

 

What Carter did was catch parts of a few ND games when Quinn was there, watch part of the 3 games that Quinn played last year, and watched the same talking heads discussing Quinn on TV over the past few years. Oh, maybe he had a 2 minute conversation with a Browns player too.

 

Let's not get carried away with Chris Carter "the analyst". (Or any "analyst" for that matter. They all bat under .500 it seems.)

 

I agree...all we have to do is scan the posts on this board to find out how many people come to "US" for their Browns news because the "experts" have it all wrong.

 

[Zombo]

How does this

You really think Wiley has solid insider information to support that opinion?

 

Again .. I think he is more in touch with NFL lockerooms than Shep is.

 

I'm not trying to single out Shep, he's great fun and makes a lot of good points, but I don't think we should just scoff at this type of analysis, I think it is all worthy.

 

The only opinion that is going to matter in the end is Mangini's.

 

I just try and bring some balance to the board.

 

I've seen too much QB slobber in the past, and was guilty of it myself with Couch.

 

Now I am grossed out by it.

 

I want to hear everyone's opinion. Then I want to see how it plays out on the field.

 

I want these things said about Quinn proven. I'm ready.

 

In the end, you and I want the same thing ... Let's put the best team on the field and beat the Steelers for the Love of God.

 

I'm just more cautious in my approach of backing up a guy that is yet to prove anthing, or trashing a guy that has done some things.

 

Zombo

[Greythan]

We're aligned Z. I don't think I'm "slobbering" about Quinn.

 

While you may not agree with my view, I'm consistent with it: I think DA's upside may be too limited for us to win with and Quinn is promising but unproven.

 

So its easy for me: start Quinn to see what we've got coming off a low single digit win season. Its not like we can't "afford" to start him.

[WPB Dawg Fan]

Here is one way to look at this:

 

DA's strength is the long ball

BQ's strength is the short to intermediate ball

 

I think we can all agree on those statements?!

 

Now, for DA to be effective...he NEEDS the running game to be effective. If the running game isn't DEMANDING 8 in the box, then teams can play deep and take away his strength. However, if the running game is effective, we have the ability to force teams to pick their poison. It can be a very tough offense to handle.

 

For BQ, it is a given that teams will put 8 in the box and try to stop the run and short routes. It will be on Quinn to be effective in tight spaces short, hit quick intermediate routes, and occasionally go over the top TO ALLOW the running game to get established.

 

So, in my mind anyway, the biggest difference is:

With DA, he must RELY ON THE RUNNING GAME to be effective

With BQ, he must BE EFFECTIVE to establish the running game

[Sez.EJ]

Sorry but I just don't see Carter and Wiley having the "pulse" of the team. I doubt Carter has set foot in cleveland for one. #2 he is not all that approachable as a person. #3.. He is not much of a reporter. #4. A lot of his other opinions suck too.

 

I for one am glad there is an open competition and let the best man win. they are both young and have upside. Each guy has his strengths.. Weaknesses can be overcome by practice, film work, and good game planning. As for the past DA meltdown.. and teams game planning him. I blamed the OC for much of that because he played right into what the defense was doing to stop DA ..he kept trying to force the same things without any adjustments.. DA was not completely to blame...That being said..I am pulling for Quinn to win this thing. I just think he will be a more saavy playmaker. Key word..playmaker.. Quinn can certainly hurt teams with his feet much more than DA..that is an underplayed asset. But it sure gets first downs.

[AZBrowns]

It's funny how some people want to discount sites like the OBR and most of the Cleveland media, but want to cite two ESPN analysts - the same media outlet people are blasting for limiting the coverage of Toothlessberger's rape situation - to give evidence of who is going to / should start.

 

I personally don't believe there is much of a leader in the race, if there is even a race at all. When you turn down hefty offers for one guy and don't get viable ones for the other, what does THAT tell you about the QB race?

[Zombo]

Oh I'm not disagreeing they are more connected and might know more than any poster here. But why do you put more stock in them than any of the other so called "insider" "expert" reports put out claiming Quinn is in the lead? IE Browns beat writers, other national media?

 

The way you wrote yours, you made it seem you put more stock in those two than other actual media types.

 

I meant to say that I like to incorporate the opinions of analysts that are outside the Brownsboard ... ie. Shep, Lumberg, etc ... I like reading their opinions, I know where they stand .... I found it interesting that these two "national" guys picked Anderson.

 

Again, I understand it's just a "cutesy" little segment where they didn't probably prepare much. I don't give it the same weight I would a Jaworski or Young breaking down film ... just thought their opinions were interesting.

 

Shep has done such a good job of running Camp Quinn that people take some of it as bible. I call it the "Joeyization" of Brady Quinn (Harrington was pimped as "big, fast, smart, hard-working, etc. ... and he was ... and Quinn is ... but the question always is: does that translate into being good enough in the NFL to consistently make plays and win games .... with Joey the answer was "no" ... with Quinn the answer is "we'll see"). I want to infuse other opinions from outside our little world.

 

I like this QB battle, it is like a heavyweight fight for me, although the stakes are to be my favorite team's QB for the next many years and possibley bring us that trophy we dream about.

 

I want them to come out swinging. And I'm interested what everyone has to say about it.

 

Camp's a week a away and I'm pumped!

 

Zombo

[Pumpkin Eater]

Sorry, but the Browns need to be able to complete short passes and in the flat. Something Da just can't do too often. No wonder teams have him figured out.

[Pumpkin Eater]

You know, you're supposed to beat the bad teams. That's part of your job. You're supposed to smoke the Rams.

 

Anderson lined up against 15 NFL teams that year and we beat ten of them.

 

In the end, we fell one game short of the playoffs, but this Browns team was not the 85 Bears, folks. They ranked 30th in defense. Sure Anderson stunk in the second Bengal game. But if Dawson isn't blocked agains the Raiders, or he makes a field goal against the Steelers, or Winslow is in bounds against the Cardinals, or if the Colts play their starters versus Tenn ... we were in the playoffs with that #30 defense. Sure, we'd love an interception back. But what about a missed tackle or blown assignment on defense? Team game ... team game.

 

So before Anderson we lost to the bad teams and got clobbered by the good teams.

 

Then, with Anderson, we beat the bad teams and lost close games to the good teams.

 

Yes ... sounds like Anderson's fault.

 

 

 

He's basing it on the same things Camp BQ bases their love on: his college games, preseason games, film and scouting reports.

 

If one guy can say he's head & shoulders better than Anderson through that analysis, than another guy has the right to say he ain't gonna be good through that analysis.

 

But I agree with you ... he's unproven.

 

Zombo

 

Come on man... you're better than resorting to "what if" scenarios. 75% of the games could go either wya based on plays like that.

 

[WPB Dawg Fan]

Zombo...one thing that you said that bothered me.

 

The fact that you are supposed to beat the bad teams. I TOTALLY AGREE!!! But DA's record against teams OVER .500 is ABYSMAL!!! DA led Browns teams are now a whopping 2 and 6 against teams over .500. Even in our 10-6 season he couldn't beat the good teams.

 

The problem with 'beating the teams you are supposed to beat' is that you will never be anything better than average.

 

To be a TRUE PLAYOFF CONTENDER we have to get play from our QB that allows us to BEAT PLAYOFF TEAMS at better than a .250 clip!!!

[Zombo]

Come on man... you're better than resorting to "what if" scenarios. 75% of the games could go either wya based on plays like that.

 

OK then, let's keep it more general: The offense ranked 8th, Anderson had Pro Bowl numbers ... and the defense ranked 30th (against this cupcake schedule I keep hearing about).

 

Place the blame wherever you may...

 

Zombo

[Zombo]

Zombo...one thing that you said that bothered me.

 

The fact that you are supposed to beat the bad teams. I TOTALLY AGREE!!! But DA's record against teams OVER .500 is ABYSMAL!!! DA led Browns teams are now a whopping 2 and 6 against teams over .500. Even in our 10-6 season he couldn't beat the good teams.

 

And how are we doing against teams over .500 in games Anderson doesn't start?

 

We haven't been beating the good teams because we haven't been good.

 

At least Anderson was beating the bad teams.

 

More than anyone else can say.

 

Zombo

[WPB Dawg Fan]

And how are we doing against teams over .500 in games Anderson doesn't start?

 

We haven't been beating the good teams because we haven't been good.

 

At least Anderson was beating the bad teams.

 

More than anyone else can say.

 

Zombo

 

Quinn hasn't faced one yet...and you don't expect 3rd string QB's to be all that...especially the ones we had.

 

As for the rest of the team, prior to 2007 we didn't have an offensive line..but OK, I'll play along.

 

Since 2006, DA is 2-8 vs teams over .500, CF was 2-4 vs teams over .500, and other miscellaneous QBs are 0-3. (seems I forgot DA started vs. IND in 2008).

 

[Zombo]

The "good" Anderson is really segregated into a time long, long ago... the first half of 2007. Mostly he piled up stats against tomato cans like the Bengals and Rams.

 

After about the midpoint of 2007, he's been epically, historically awful. Over the last 18 starts, he has a passer rating of 68.

 

 

Carter said, and I don't think this can be emphasized enough, that Braylon Edwards was epically bad. The worst season for a premier wideout he has ever seen.

 

But at least he still had Joe J. ... oh wait, he missed the whole season.

 

But at least he had Donte Stallworth fresh off his terrific Patriot season ... oh wait, Stallworth got hurt warming up before the first game and barely saw the field when Anderson was in there.

 

But at least he had Kellen Winslow ... oh wait, Winslow was injured almost the entire first half of the season and was very limited and ineffefctive.

 

But at least he had Sedrick Steptoe. Yep, he had him.

 

Shep, I don't know why you rely so heavily on passer ratings to make your argument.

 

Over the past two seasons, Derek Anderson has a 77 and Quinn has a 65

 

Anderson is 13-11, Quinn is 1-2.

 

You got nothing until Quinn goes out and does something.

 

Zombo

[WPB Dawg Fan]

DA, in ALL of his starts, is 13-14, so that means he is a stunning 11-6 vs teams .500 and below. Sorry, I don't want to be COMPETITIVE with below .500 teams.

[Zombo]

Quinn hasn't faced one yet...and you don't expect 3rd string QB's to be all that...especially the ones we had.

 

As for the rest of the team, prior to 2007 we didn't have an offensive line..but OK, I'll play along.

 

Since 2006, DA is 2-8 vs teams over .500, CF was 2-4 vs teams over .500, and other miscellaneous QBs are 0-3. (seems I forgot DA started vs. IND in 2008).

 

Ok ... so again:

 

Without DA we lost to the bad teams and got clobbered by the good teams.

 

With DA we beat the bad teams and lost closer games to the good teams.

 

And how has he been the problem again?

 

Zombo

[Zombo]

DA, in ALL of his starts, is 13-14, so that means he is a stunning 11-6 vs teams .500 and below. Sorry, I don't want to be COMPETITIVE with below .500 teams.

 

Neither do I.

 

So how bout we get a defense?

 

Zombo

[AZBrowns]

Carter said, I don't think this can be emphasized enough, that Braylon Edwards was epically bad. The worst season for a premier wideout he has ever seen.

 

But at least he still had Joe J. ... oh wait, he missed the whole season.

 

But at least he had Donte Stallworth fresh off his terrific Patriot season ... oh wait, Stallworth got hurt warming up before the first game and barely saw the field when Anderson was in there.

 

But at least he had Kellen Winslow ... oh wait, Winslow was injured almost the entire first half of the season and was vwery limited and ineffefctive.

 

But at least he had Sedrick Steptoe. Yep, he had him.

 

Shep, I don't know why you rely so heavily on passer ratings to make your argument.

 

Over the past two seasons, Derek Anderson has a 77 and Quinn has a 65

 

Anderson is 13-11, Quinn is 1-2.

 

You got nothing until Quinn goes out and does something.

 

Zombo[/color]

 

I hear people tell me "If the receiver drops the pass, then that's not Anderson's fault"

 

On the same token...

 

It doesn't matter who the WR is, if the QB can't get it within a few yards of them, they aren't going to catch it.

 

It works both ways and with Anderson, it all equals out. For all of the passes the wideouts dropped, there sure were a lot of balls thrown nowhere in the general area.

 

These aren't just Braylon running the wrong routes either, unless there is a secret route that has Braylon running 15 yards out of bounds or Braylon is thrown to as a check down WR.

 

For all of you guys who want to pump Anderson up, you hardly ever see it both ways. You bring up the WR drops, but fail to acknowledge passes at the RB's ankles or passes that sail out of bounds out of the WR's reach. You bring up how good the offense was in 2007 and don't really credit the rest of the team or acknowledge the factors like Braylon coming back from ACL surgery, Jamal being healthy or adding two pro bowl caliber players to the left side of the line. Then in 2008, Anderson gets none of the blame. It's all injuries and dropped passes. '

 

It's selective diagnosis.

 

You guys do realize by acknowledging all this talent either not playing to their potential or being injured in 2008 that you are saying that a good portion of Anderson's 2007 success was because of the talent surrounding him, right?