OconRecon Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Hey Z, no bitterness here and rereading the list, I agree. I copy/pasted those from someone elses old post. A little spirited for me actually, but in general, I agree. I do prefer a serious Manning demeanor or a reserved Tom Brady one, rather than a smiling Romo one. But in the end, I really don't dislike DA, I just feel it's Quinn's turn to do it or not, just from a Browns fan standpoint. The stats do show DA was not the offensive gem of 2007 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted July 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 I'm new here guys. We all have to understand what the new regime is looking for. They have said that they want the QB that is going to make quick, smart decisions. Someone who can command the huddle & not get rattled to easy. The scheme the Daboll is implementing is a heavy dose of pounding the football to set up the pass. There will very few calls for long booms down the middle. Neither of the QB's is bad. They both have distinct qualities that could help nearly any NFL team. DA was given a chance last year & finished with a 3-5 record prior to being pulled in favor of Quinn. IMO that was a dumb move on Crennels part. He should at the very least let DA try & rebound from the early faults. Difficult to get a good read on Quinn since he went 1-2 (good Denver game, Defense lost that for us). If he had played the rest of the year, I think us, along with the coaching staff would have made a decision or at least had a better idea. Game tape speaks for itself, but new coaches, new ideas. Should be a fun & interesting year. Three weeks til preseason. Go Browns! Welcome. Nice initial post. Zombo --I think we can all agree we've upgraded the head coach position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisky fringo Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 welcome clevelandpwnd! is pwnd short for the pound or are you saying CLE got owned? since you seem like a fan i'd guess Pound, but it's a pretty controversial choice. just saying. anyway hello hello! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 In 2008 he started the season with a concussion, and missing three of his four top receivers, and the #1 dropping more balls than than any #1 in recent memory. Of any team. Ever. But let's hang the phucker. Zombo Just a little retort on the pass dropping thing... Stop Blaming Everything Bad About Anderson in 2008 on Dropped Passes Posted by: clayton browns-qbs As a brief follow-up to Steve’s recent post about Derek Anderson being ready for training camp in terms of having recovered from his calf injury that had him sidelined earlier this off-season, it is important that we put the issue of dropped passes into a wider perspective. There is no doubt that Braylon Edwards in particular dropped an awful lot of footballs last year - in fact the highest in the League according to most statistics trackers (remember that dropped passes tend to be less reliable stats compared to other more official NFL figures throughout the season). And of course that had an impact on Derek Anderson losing his job. But a look at the overall team stats on dropped passes compared to the rest of the League proves an interesting point. It is possible for a quarterback to keep his job and perform well, even into the playoffs, in spite of his receivers dropping a lot of passes. As of December 2008, the Browns were second highest in the NFL in dropped passes. I bet very few will guess the other three teams in the top 4: Eagles, Broncos and the Colts. McNabb and the Eagles made the NFL Championship Game against the Cards a very close contest. Cutler and the Broncos would have made the playoffs barring that pathetic performance against the Chargers at the end of the season. And Manning and the Colts advanced to the AFC Playoffs Wild Card Game against the Bolts. Anderson could have overcome the dropped passes, pure and simple. -Clayton Kinda puts things into perspective...ya think??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Anderson could have overcome the dropped passes, pure and simple. haha that's a beauty of an argument WPB. Allow me to summarize: "Yeah I know there's a lot of dropped passes, but just stop talking about them and play Quinn!" But before you go down the road of "who cares about dropped passes", remember that BQ Nation had already fired up the "Quinnie is gettin screwed by dropped passes!" band wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 haha that's a beauty of an argument WPB. Allow me to summarize: "Yeah I know there's a lot of dropped passes, but just stop talking about them and play Quinn!" But before you go down the road of "who cares about dropped passes", remember that BQ Nation had already fired up the "Quinnie is gettin screwed by dropped passes!" band wagon IN case you didn't notice..."I" didn't write that article..I just posted it here. And, since the Colts had even MORE dropped passes and still made the playoffs....well, enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 IN case you didn't notice..."I" didn't write that article..I just posted it here. And, since the Colts had even MORE dropped passes and still made the playoffs....well, enough said. And the Colts threw 70 more passes than the Browns. whatever you say Clayton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Anderson didn't do nearly enough to keep Quinn on the bench... shep, do you remember that look on Quinnie's face when Romeo benched his ass mid-game? Priceless, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisky fringo Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 shep, do you remember that look on Quinnie's face when Romeo benched his ass mid-game? Priceless, no? i saw that. it was classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 As of December 2008, the Browns were second highest in the NFL in dropped passes. I bet very few will guess the other three teams in the top 4: Eagles, Broncos and the Colts. McNabb and the Eagles made the NFL Championship Game against the Cards a very close contest. Cutler and the Broncos would have made the playoffs barring that pathetic performance against the Chargers at the end of the season. And Manning and the Colts advanced to the AFC Playoffs Wild Card Game against the Bolts. Number of pass attempts: Denver: 620 (3rd most in the league) Philadelphia: 606 (4th) Indianapolis: 585 (5th) Cleveland: 488 (23rd) If anything, that stat would seem to indicate that drops were a big issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisky fringo Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 wow that's a pretty significant margin between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OconRecon Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Even with all of his drops, Braylon was still in the top third of receivers. DA was ranked 32nd. Again, I don't mean to keep pounding DA, but the support of a 32nd ranked QB on a 4-12 team bewilders me. I do understand Quinn fatigue, but he can't proove or disproove himself until he gets his shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Number of pass attempts: Denver: 620 (3rd most in the league) Philadelphia: 606 (4th) Indianapolis: 585 (5th) Cleveland: 488 (23rd) If anything, that stat would seem to indicate that drops were a big issue. I would agree...except for the statistical relevance of it all... Here are the number of drops: (yes, it was the Eagles, not Colts that had the most) Eagles- 28 Browns- 27 Broncos- 25 Colts- 25 So, even though we had the highest percentage, it still comes out to only 5.5% of all the passes were dropped. You put that into the equation of DA's QBR (assume that he got 58% of the passes that he got 58% of the drops and that he got his average y/c on them) he would gain 16 catches for 91 yards (and I gave him 1 more TD): True QBR: 66.5 w/o Drops: 72.5 w/extra TD: 73.7 That now ranks him 28th in the league...tied with Gus Frerotte. And that is assuming ZERO DROPS...which no QB had. So, even assuming he got HALF of them he would still be : 8 drops: 70.7, ranked 31st, passing ONLY Ryan Fitzpatrick. Like I said, statistically non-relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Also is there a website out there that actually gives you the drops by game? If you can't pinpoint the drops in the games where DA started vs the games someone else did. It's a pretty much useless stat. I can pinpoint a 70 yd bomb on the money vs Baltimore that woulda iced the game and took the team to 4-4 against the toughest schedule in the NFL. Plus with 3 cupcakes coming up next on the horizon. and that's when all hell broke loose, Lerner told Romeo to play Quinn, the locker room went ape shit, players and fans yelling at eachother in the parking lot, then they lost to the friggen Broncos at home when the Broncos only had 2 days of practice and a cross country flight as Quinn only goes for 230 yards vs a team with SIX defensive starters out. And Winslow, Stallworth, and Braylon on the field together for the first time all year. But BQ Nation was cool with it. Best game they ever saw. That's why they call themselves "true fans" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 I can pinpoint a 70 yd bomb on the money vs Baltimore that woulda iced the game and took the team to 4-4 against the toughest schedule in the NFL. Plus with 3 cupcakes coming up next on the horizon. and that's when all hell broke loose, Lerner told Romeo to play Quinn, the locker room went ape shit, players and fans yelling at eachother in the parking lot, then they lost to the friggen Broncos at home when the Broncos only had 2 days of practice and a cross country flight as Quinn only goes for 230 yards vs a team with SIX defensive starters out. And Winslow, Stallworth, and Braylon on the field together for the first time all year. But BQ Nation was cool with it. Best game they ever saw. That's why they call themselves "true fans" Would that be the same game that the Browns trailed by only 3 late in the game until DA threw and TD...to the RAVENS??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted July 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 I would agree...except for the statistical relevance of it all... Here are the number of drops: (yes, it was the Eagles, not Colts that had the most) Eagles- 28 Browns- 27 Broncos- 25 Colts- 25 So, even though we had the highest percentage, it still comes out to only 5.5% of all the passes were dropped. You put that into the equation of DA's QBR (assume that he got 58% of the passes that he got 58% of the drops and that he got his average y/c on them) he would gain 16 catches for 91 yards (and I gave him 1 more TD): True QBR: 66.5 w/o Drops: 72.5 w/extra TD: 73.7 That now ranks him 28th in the league...tied with Gus Frerotte. And that is assuming ZERO DROPS...which no QB had. So, even assuming he got HALF of them he would still be : 8 drops: 70.7, ranked 31st, passing ONLY Ryan Fitzpatrick. Like I said, statistically non-relevant. 27 is a lot of drops. And they are more relevant than just replacing them with ordinary statistics. They are drive killers. He catches those balls, it leads to first downs which leads to more passes, more yards, more touchdowns .... But I don't mean this as an excuse for Anderson. I mean this in general: Edwards really, really sucked and really hurt our offense last year. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 27 is a lot of drops. And they are more relevant than just replacing them with ordinary statistics. They are drive killers. He catches those balls, it leads to first downs which leads to more passes, more yards, more touchdowns .... But I don't mean this as an excuse for Anderson. I mean this in general: Edwards really, really sucked and really hurt our offense last year. Zombo it also leads to more incompletions, more INT's, etc....that is why it is inconsequential. You are what you are. At best, DA could hope to have had 8 of those passes completed (like I said, only 16 were probably his), and that would make the Browns the team with the LEAST dropped balls. So it kept 8 drives alive...for DA to continue to complete barely 50% of his passes...which is why I gave him the yards and the TD....since we didn't even score on 1 out of 8 drives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Would that be the same game that the Browns trailed by only 3 late in the game until DA threw and TD...to the RAVENS??? also known as that one where Jason I am completely unaware that I am the hot read on a blitz and have since been cut by the team Wright watched another football sail right by him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 also known as that one where Jason I am completely unaware that I am the hot read on a blitz and have since been cut by the team Wright watched another football sail right by him. 4 ft over his head and 3 in front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBrowns Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Of those 27 drops... How many were passes from Anderson? How many passes were from Quinn? How many passes were from Dorsey/Gradkowski? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBrowns Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 27 is a lot of drops. And they are more relevant than just replacing them with ordinary statistics. They are drive killers. He catches those balls, it leads to first downs which leads to more passes, more yards, more touchdowns .... But I don't mean this as an excuse for Anderson. I mean this in general: Edwards really, really sucked and really hurt our offense last year. Zombo Edwards killed a lot of drives with drops last year. It was frustrating to see a WR take such a significant step back after having one of the best years as a WR in Browns history. Drops, bad passes, wrong routes, fumbles and INT's are all drive killers and everyone (DA, Edwards, Winslow, JLew) was responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Of those 27 drops... How many were passes from Anderson? How many passes were from Quinn? How many passes were from Dorsey/Gradkowski? Exactly my point before...the Browns threw 488 passes, of which 283 were by DA (roughly 58%). So giving him 16 of the drops seemed fair enough... All said and done, the average QB suffers about 3-4% of his passes getting dropped...so DA had about 8 extra drops at worst. Not statistically relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBrowns Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Exactly my point before...the Browns threw 488 passes, of which 283 were by DA (roughly 58%). So giving him 16 of the drops seemed fair enough... All said and done, the average QB suffers about 3-4% of his passes getting dropped...so DA had about 8 extra drops at worst. Not statistically relevant. I'd probably credit more than 16 to DA just for the simple fact that the dropsies were much more prevalent early in the season IIRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 I'd probably credit more than 16 to DA just for the simple fact that the dropsies were much more prevalent early in the season IIRC Even if you give him 18 of them, it still doesn't bring him up that high...as the typical QB was garnering about 9-10 in the same number of passes. A difference of 8 or 9 completions does not make him anything more than #31 instead of #32 last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkandstoopid Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Of those 27 drops... How many were passes from Anderson? How many passes were from Quinn? How many passes were from Dorsey/Gradkowski? Don't know the total answer to this, but 13 of Edwards 16 drops were in the first 8 games. DA had a lot of balls dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkandstoopid Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 In my attempting to find the number of drops by Browns' receivers, I did uncover some interesting numbers. Someone tracks "catchable" balls and drops, I couldn't find the source, but there's a reference to it here: http://blogs.weei.com/garymarbry/2008/09/2...d-pass-nuggets/ At the point in time the article was written, DA had 17.3% of his 2008 season catchable throws dropped. Anyways, since 2005 the NFL leader (at the point the article was written) for catchable balls dropped was DA. It is interesting to note that he did not make the list for lowest percentage of catchable balls thrown, it appears there are less accurate passers in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkandstoopid Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 I just found an interesting article about QB ratings adjusted for pass defense. It's about 2007 unfortunately, doesn't include 2008. http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/12/we...d-for-pass.html Take a lookie at who the #4 QB when adjusted for pass defense was that year... I thought he sucked most of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AdaM Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 I just found an interesting article about QB ratings adjusted for pass defense. It's about 2007 unfortunately, doesn't include 2008. http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/12/we...d-for-pass.html Take a lookie at who the #4 QB when adjusted for pass defense was that year... I thought he sucked most of the season. please..... season..... start... now... I can't take this shit anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmac12 Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 As far as drops go I seem to recall a long pass against Dallas that hit BE right in the hands that would have tied the game up early. He of course dropped it and the offense fell apart soon after. And I also remember the one at the end of BaltimoreII that BE dropped that would had put the game away for the Browns. And yes DA did throw a pass that got returned for a TD that sealed the game for the Ravens but if BE catches that easy long pass and runs in for the TD then DA is never in the position to throw the ball that got intercepted and run back because he would not have been playing catch up. As in all posts on this subject I like to point out that if you look at BQ and DA at the same time in their careers that they have almost identical stats. From completion percentage (actually DA's is higher) to yards per pass completion (12.0 to 11.9) all the way to age and situation. Improved OL, improved receivers, better coaching and favorable schedule. And chances are that the Browns will not be the 30th ranked defense this year as they showed improvement last year and only added more depth and production this year. It all points to BQ having a better year in 2009 than DA did in 2007. Now it is time to go prove it. At least 10 wins and a playoff birth. I am not saying over 3700 yards and 29TDs because I do not think BQ is that type of QB. I will just go with the win total as my bar. BQ will get his chance this year (95% chance he starts I think). It is time for him to put up or for everybody to be as harsh on him as they are on DA. I don't want to see, well we lost but the WR's dropped the ball or man if the defense could only stop somebody. I want to see wins and I want to see production. And I want to see people make an honest evaluation of the QB. And I will tell you that I get really tired of people saying they only attack DA because of Oregon State people or Oregonians. There is only ONE person that post on here that calls BQ fans names or people that support change. ONE. But there are at least Five people that I can think of that call a group of people names because of one person. If you want to call Lum names you go for it because he does the same thing. But don't lump everybody from Oregon or people that support Oregon State into one basket because we don't luimp you all into one basket. Looking forward to a great season this year and a exciting camp. God I miss Football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisky fringo Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 please..... season..... start... now... I can't take this shit anymore. right? i defect and they're making a comeback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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