QB's: Where does prior NFL film factor in?

[Greythan]

My first time this season starting a QB thread, so move along if you aren't interested.

 

My question relates to the competition and how/where film study of the two QB's comes into play. Obviously, there is more film on DA than Quinn at this point.

 

The reason I ask is because I witnessed DA's practice with my own eyes last year in Berea. The guy flat out looks like a world beater. Its hard to imagine the guy you see in Berea doing some of the things we've seen in the few years in live games. Doesn't seem to be the same guy.

 

So, where does this factor into the competition? Mangini's supposed to have said both guys are "even". So, he's simply going to see how the two practice and play in a handful of meaningless preseason games to pick a starter?

 

I must not understand what can be gleaned from practices.

[Drunkandstoopid]

My first time this season starting a QB thread, so move along if you aren't interested.

 

My question relates to the competition and how/where film study of the two QB's comes into play. Obviously, there is more film on DA than Quinn at this point.

 

The reason I ask is because I witnessed DA's practice with my own eyes last year in Berea. The guy flat out looks like a world beater. Its hard to imagine the guy you see in Berea doing some of the things we've seen in the few years in live games. Doesn't seem to be the same guy.

 

So, where does this factor into the competition? Mangini's supposed to have said both guys are "even". So, he's simply going to see how the two practice and play in a handful of meaningless preseason games to pick a starter?

 

I must not understand what can be gleaned from practices.

Weren't you the guy who said teams had film on DA and figured him after his SECOND NFL start? It might have been Flugel. Somebody here kept singing that song all summer long in '07, then shut up for about 4-5 games once the season started. If that was you, guess what, Quinn's had 2 NFL starts too now. Everyone knows his act.

 

Personally, I think coaches and their schemes get a heck of a lot more attention by the defensive coordinators than individual QB tendencies.

[Greythan]

Wrong guy.

 

My point is that we now have a shitload of film on DA and a lot of it isn't good. My related point is to ask how much stock you can/should put in practice versus the game film.

 

Now, if you want to argue that the game film on DA is good/bad go ahead, but sniping about Quinn's "film" was pretty pathetic.

[ballpeen]

No doubt it factors in.

 

Here is the deal some have to factor...on some of the plays people like to point out as a bonehead play by DA , the film might mitigate "his" error.

 

We don't know who turned the wrong way, cut deep when they should have cut under, or simply didn't fight for the ball.

 

I am not offering that to say DA didn't have his own problems. I am simply pointing out what a few fans see on their TV screens isn't a very accurate way to breakdown a play and try to determine why it didn't wok or who was at fault.

[Legacy Fan]

Great topic Grey.

 

You have to wonder if the game film review, even last season, had to be confidence shakers.

"Braylon, you have to make those catches" every week could have had some effect as observed by his weekly performances.

 

Same with the "DA, who are you throwing to there? Why try & force that - so & so was open on that play." Outside of the amazing performance against the G-men, he showed no improvement from week to week on the deficiencies that game film should have revealed.

 

That has to be part of the equation.

[Greythan]

'peen, on the flipside you don't know how many plays were made that ended up not looking boneheaded on our TV's but in a film session would be categorized as bad decisions/throws.

 

There's no way to hide turnovers, inaccurate short passes, and poor footwork under pressure. I may be a fan but I've watched enough football to know how many things should look.

 

Tough part with Quinn is the limited NFL film we have to review. Another item to thank Romeo for. Wouldn't it be nice if Mangini had a half dozen or more games of film on Quinn?

[Gips]

Im sure mangini has and will look at the film but like peen and others have said many times it wasnt all DAs or BQs fault..gameplan and poor coordination combined with other players not doing their job play a huge part sure DA does panic and makes bad decisions/costly mistakes but that is coachable stuff...the difference in coaching is night and day and i think we will see the results in both our QBs regardless of who starts.....

[Lumbergh]

I must not understand what can be gleaned from practices.

 

you're right, you don't.

 

QB update: Anderson clearly had the upper hand in the competition with Brady Quinn. Anderson's body language has changed dramatically since the June minicamp, when he looked like he didn't want to be in Cleveland any longer. On Sunday, he was sharp, decisive and managed the team well, especially in the two-minute drill. During seven-on-seven, he threw touchdowns on three of four snaps he took (finding rookie running back James Davis, tight end Aaron Walker and tight end Robert Royal). Anderson received a low five from offensive coordinator Brian Daboll after the throw to Royal.

 

To end the practice, both quarterbacks got a chance in the 2:00. Quinn faced the first-team defense and failed to score. His series ended on fourth-and-15 when he found receiver Lance Leggett open, but the throw was behind Leggett and out of reach. On Anderson's chance against the second team, he marched the team down the field. On the final play, with 20 seconds left, he found receiver Joshua Cribbs for the touchdown, Cribbs catching it just as the theme from "Rocky" came on the loudspeaker. Defensive coordinator Rob Ryan threw his cap to the ground in disgust.

 

http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/browns/2009/08/02/sund ay-aug-2/

 

 

 

 

[Greythan]

you're right, you don't.

First, it would require someone who has actual football acumen to make this statement. You've proven that you have none especially on this topic.

 

That said I'm opening up both possibilities for the DA fans: his body of film work could be a net positive or negative.

 

Just thought it would be an interesting discussion, but any form of "discussion" is beyond your capability. You've proven that time and again.

[Vegasdogg]

Mangini has intimated that it is difficult to look at game film from last season and determine "fault" or what is or isn't miscommunication because he wasn't the HC at the time. Now they could go over play by play, but I am sure they have taken some plays and dissected them with the players involved.

 

Still he needs his own practice and game film results to make a decision.

 

What I can't get over sometimes is DA's great game followed up by horrible games. I mean Washington was atrocious after that great game agaisnt the Giants.

 

If DA is the starter I am good to go with it - as long as he improves. We didn't see that last season and it was frustrating. He was poor enough to require benching.

 

[Vegasdogg]

you're right, you don't.

Here we go again, selective information from Lumnuts.

 

I see you don't want to deal with the 21TD and 20 turnovers problem DA seems to have every season. It's okay though - he seems to shine in August.

[Riffer X]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist film watcher to see DA screwing up.

[Lumbergh]

Here we go again, selective information from Lumnuts.

 

I see you don't want to deal with the 21TD and 20 turnovers problem DA seems to have every season. It's okay though - he seems to shine in August.

 

As I was saying previously, throw in rushing TDs and those numbers are 46 TDs and 40 total turnovers (picks+fumbles). Yes that is true.

 

Are those numbers bad? It's a 1.15 TD to turnover ratio.

 

You apparently think that is terrible.

 

Keep in mind that of the Browns first 5 opponents, only one of them has a QB with a better ratio than Anderson's 1.15, (Carson Palmer 1.38)

 

Oh and Anderson's ratio is better than Brady Quinn's ratio.

 

Nice argument though. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Lumbergh]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist film watcher to see DA screwing up.

 

And it didn't take long for DA to take control of the QB battle.

 

Kinda the opposite of what BQ Nation said was gonna happen in TC, isn't it?

 

[Riffer X]

And it didn't take long for DA to take control of the QB battle.

 

Kinda the opposite of what BQ Nation said was gonna happen in TC, isn't it?

 

Lums you must have really sucked at football. What you judge as good play and what I do are not even on the same planet. Something about throwing balls inaccurately and me don't jive, but I can't begrudge you for not knowing football and being in love.

[Lumbergh]

And you had a golden opportunity to get rid of me forever and not have to worry about me constantly giving you the red ass if you had only taken that bet.

 

So for your sake, it's a good thing I'm not a gambler.

 

You woulda had to sign up for a whole new screen name. Oh the humanity.

 

 

 

[BrownIndian]

Films matter only if the coordinators refuse to change the offensive tactics out of confidence/ lack of ideas and if a problem associated with a player keeps returning frequently.

 

If Quinn and the OC can keep the opponent guessing then well and good but if Quinn is going to show a repetitive flaw than is exposed and can be exploited then it is a only a matter of time before the Quinn witchhunt will begin. It really is t he same with many QB's.

[Lumbergh]

What you judge as good play and what I do are not even on the same planet.

 

Yeah I'm more in line with NFL talent evaluators/coaching staffs.

 

You and Flugs base your evaluations on whether you can daydream about if a guy reminds you of Kosar or not.

 

[dawgpound3]

For Anderson, since there is a ton of footage, we can get a better understanding of how he plays, and what makes him tick and how inconsistent he can be at times.

 

For Quinn, since there is a little footage, we really can't get a grasp on how he plays, and based on his healthy start in Denver, he shows poise and tremendous leadership, and how good he scrambles or runs at times. But other than those three things, we can't really judge how accurate he is until we actually watch him in a game. I guess we'll find out about next week.

[Lumbergh]

For Quinn, since there is a little footage, we really can't get a grasp on how he plays, and based on his healthy start in Denver, he shows poise and tremendous leadership, and how good he scrambles or runs at times. But other than those three things, we can't really judge how accurate he is until we actually watch him in a game. I guess we'll find out about next week.

 

Quinn vs Denver. 1 rush for 3.0 yards.

[dawgpound3]

Quinn vs Denver. 1 rush for 3.0 yards.

 

Well, Lums, you got me there. But when he does run, he runs very fast. He's not like Michael Vick, but more like Steve Mcnair.

[Sez.EJ]

My first time this season starting a QB thread, so move along if you aren't interested.

 

My question relates to the competition and how/where film study of the two QB's comes into play. Obviously, there is more film on DA than Quinn at this point.

 

The reason I ask is because I witnessed DA's practice with my own eyes last year in Berea. The guy flat out looks like a world beater. Its hard to imagine the guy you see in Berea doing some of the things we've seen in the few years in live games. Doesn't seem to be the same guy.

 

So, where does this factor into the competition? Mangini's supposed to have said both guys are "even". So, he's simply going to see how the two practice and play in a handful of meaningless preseason games to pick a starter?

 

I must not understand what can be gleaned from practices.

 

Here is my take on this. Yes it is a factor and as a coach I would use this as part of practice. Here would be my plan as coach....(later in camp (full contact game simulation) what I am going to do as coach is.. For DA.. I am going to put in the defenses that he (DA) struggled the most with and force him to deal with this. Not only use this as a tool for him to learn, but to see how he has progressed as a QB.... Same with Quinn... put in the defense he struggled with and make him try to beat it...

What we do not know is how the new offensive system fits in all of this. I was a big proponent of blaming the former OC for his inflexibility in the game plan that did not put DA and BQ in the best situations to win. He failed to make adjustments and just blindly went forward with what worked "last week"

[Vegasdogg]

As I was saying previously, throw in rushing TDs and those numbers are 46 TDs and 40 total turnovers (picks+fumbles). Yes that is true.

 

 

Oh and Anderson's ratio is better than Brady Quinn's ratio.

OMG you're pathetic. So his numbers are now an avg of 23TD and 20 turnovers in 2 seasons. I am not asking for perfection, what I am asking for is if you're going to post these one liners - lookie lookie he has 43 TD - then show his mistakes as well.

 

You're asking me if I think that is terrible? No, but you're manipulation of his stats is childish, obvious and a discredit to your argument.

 

 

 

 

[Lumbergh]

OMG you're pathetic. So his numbers are now an avg of 23TD and 20 turnovers in 2 seasons. I am not asking for perfection, what I am asking for is if you're going to post these one liners - lookie lookie he has 43 TD - then show his mistakes as well.

 

You're asking me if I think that is terrible? No, but you're manipulation of his stats is childish, obvious and a discredit to your argument.

 

and if you're going to harp on mistakes, then try and show that a 23-20 ratio is actually bad.

 

I've seen a lot of supposedly "bad" things about Anderson have to get taken off the table when it's discovered that few people actually do better, and Quinn can't do it either.

 

First and foremost, Anderson's "terrible" completion percentage. Then Quinn comes out and posts 49.5%.

 

This is just another one of those.

[DawgTracker]

Other than practices and preseason games what else can be used? What happened under previous coaches doesn't matter that much, the current coaches don't even know the plays that were called in certain situations.

[Vegasdogg]

I've seen a lot of supposedly "bad" things about Anderson have to get taken off the table when it's discovered that few people actually do better, and Quinn can't do it either.

Quinn has 3 starts. Three!!

 

Why don't we look at DA's first 3 starts:

 

He threw for 207 yd per game, for a 6.3 yd per pass avg.

 

The kicker? 1 TD per start, and 2.6 turnovers per game. So he had a grand total of 3TD's and 7 INT's, with a fumble lost for 8 turnovers total in 3 starts.

 

Still want to play Quinn's first 3 vs. DA's first 3????

[Vegasdogg]

and if you're going to harp on mistakes, then try and show that a 23-20 ratio is actually bad.

It doesn't lock down the starting position in the NFL, that's the point. It isn't good, dude.

 

When you have a 3rd year player that owns every passing record @ ND - a school that had 2 Superbowl winning QB's in its history (Theisman and Montana) and your starter is 23-20 TD/INT per season, that isn't locking down the position, and in fact you'd be foolish not to try and improve that position.

 

What those stats mean is you're boy has never been good enough to keep the heat off his back.

[Vegasdogg]

and if you're going to harp on mistakes,

I harp on his mistakes because you unrealistically will not. And also, I find it odd that when I do, you deflect the criticism by bringing up Quinn. You cannot admit his mistakes or inconsistencies or his mediocre play in the face of facts, so you bring up Quinn - who has a grand total of 3 starts.

 

[osusev]

good lord Lum dont turn this into one qb vs another post, I dont think that was what Greythan was intending.

 

Grey I think it has to be a very important tool in assessing a player. I know that DA has a ton more film so Mangini should be able to glean more information about him than BQ.

 

Tendancies, strengths, weaknesses, progression, etc all can be gleaned from film. I think in some ways this actually plays toward BQ more because of the lack of data on him. Mangini is going to have to make more of a less informed projection on him and give him the benefit of learning from game time scenarios.

 

My guess still is that BQ is going to start unless he really sucks in preseason and camps because of the very question you asked. I think in order to really examine BQ he needs to get to play in real games.

 

I still think DA is a better NFL qb and that he was hampered by poor offensive coaching/injuries/other players (his own weaknesses also) etc. At this point however unless BQ really sucks in preseason and camps I would like to see him start a minimum of 8 games. Than we all can get to see what that draft pick was all about.

 

Some part of me does not want him to start at all in case he does suck, he is still worth another low 1st round or second round draft pick in a trade. If he plays and he is mediocre/average than his value plummets. My curiousity at this point wins out and I want him to start for no other purpose than to see what value he has.

 

 

[Sez.EJ]

and if you're going to harp on mistakes, then try and show that a 23-20 ratio is actually bad.

 

I've seen a lot of supposedly "bad" things about Anderson have to get taken off the table when it's discovered that few people actually do better, and Quinn can't do it either.

 

First and foremost, Anderson's "terrible" completion percentage. Then Quinn comes out and posts 49.5%.

 

This is just another one of those.

 

Lums.. How exactly are you spinning that 23 td's to 20 interceptions is GOOD?... It sounds like that is what you are saying..... IS IT???. If so, convince me HOW that is good..... here are the stats of the top 5 QB's from last year.. td to int's is HUGELY in favor of the td's. every guy who made the playoffs had more than 2x the td's to int's.. So tell me how 23-20 is good?

 

 

1 Drew Brees 34 17 made playoffs

2 Kurt Warner 30 14 made playoffs

3 Jay Cutler DEN 25 18 ...did not make playoffs.. most comparable to DA's 23-20

4 Aaron Rodgers 28 13 made playoffs

5 Philip Rivers 34 11 made playoffs

 

Lums.. i am not trying to single you out here so much as I want you to actually suport your point.. Cuz I am not gettin it...I doubt I'm alone here.