Poor People for Heck

[Westside Steve]

So here’s how I see it Heck.

First of all I don’t hate “poor people” any more or less than you hate republicans conservatives or Christians.

 

People who have food shelter medical care and public school aren’t that “poor” IMO.

And I’ll wager most who have less than average material possessions are probably decent happy normal people. Some, of course, are miserable irresponsible slugs who spend their lives pissed off and envious of everybody else.

 

Some people find satisfaction in sacrificing of themselves to help the truly needy.

Others cynically pretend to loudly and in public to make themselves seem like better human beings in the eyes of their cocktail party friends and voters.

Like I said, Heck, they're just props.

 

And no Heck, we aren’t equal. We’re all born with different abilities talents motivations physical characteristics and yes, even luck.

 

If you’re on the good end of those gifts you’ll be able to do more and have more.

That’s the way it is and the way it’s always been.

I have absolutely no doubt that’s how it is with you.

None.

 

As for me, I spend precious little time stewing over how unfair life is that somebody might make more money than I do.

 

Partly because I know I could have more if I put the effort into getting it.

 

And your petty insults might sting more if they came from someone whose motivation and opinion I respected more.

 

 

WSS

[Mr. T]

Sounds like heck despises the poor people.

 

thats a shame.

[Guest mz.]

Man, if my wife/friends/colleagues knew I associated with some of you........

[Westside Steve]

Man, if my wife/friends/colleagues knew I associated with some of you........

 

 

You'd be drummed out of the party cell?

 

WSS

[Mr. T]

Man, if my wife/friends/colleagues knew I associated with some of you........

 

 

I dont think it would be that great of a loss.

 

[Guest mz.]

You'd be drummed out of the party cell?

 

WSS

 

I don't even know what that means.

 

But yeah.

 

[Westside Steve]

Steve, I agree with some of your points and I'd like to take it one step further.

 

To me equality isn't about the ends, or the posessions, or who has how much stuff.

 

The reality is (from my perspective) is that the playing field IS equal. It's just that there are too many people who refuse to believe it and use the resources that are already available to improve their own lives. Too many people want someone to give them what they feel they are entitled to.

 

There are folks who seriously need help. But 'help' isn't supposed to be lifetime support.

 

 

And in fairness there are some who need it for life.

And if those who didn't were denied it we could do a lot more for that group that does.

 

But here's what I mean ablout "equality."

(You are correct)

Example:

I get pretty good health care but it costs a lot.

Ted Kennedy can afford private RNs and physicialns around the clock.

I can't. I don't blame Ted.

Mozart had a gift.

I can't do what he did.

I don't balme him.

 

OTOH htere are guys making millions who I think suck.

Oh well.

 

So I guess what I mean is some people get breaks but I don't expect the government to get me on the US open.

.

 

But most (or at least a lot) of anything I want and don't have I'm just too lazy to go get.

 

 

WSS

 

[calfoxwc]

In the service, I met guys from all walks of life, former almost gang members, the poor kids from the beaches of Puerto Rico,

 

big cities, the bayous, small towns all over ths country, ...

 

A lot of them made lives for themselves - in the service, or used the GI bill to go to college

 

and make lives for themselves after college.

 

Instead of staying home and lounging, for all sorts of reasons as motivation, they made decisions.

 

Getting student loans, and working yer butt off for education and higher standard of living works, too.

 

Government dole for life does not. It's a manipulative experiment that has never worked.

 

It's pretty bad when Obama has Putin telling him not to go that route.

 

Help people help themselves, give them the tools/assistance to do that. When those who are perfectly able,

 

refuse to use those tools or assistance or opportunity, that is THEIR DECISION.

 

Those who are unable, of course they need assistance to live decent, healthy, lives.

 

But the marxist manipulation of the masses to power, based on economic/"class" envy has been seen in hisory before many times.

 

Doesn't work to build a happy, productive and free society...ever.

 

and that is why Americans all over this country are getting to be very worried about our direction.

[Guest mz.]

For those who really do need help for life we could be doing so much more

 

Explain again why you're against a gov't healthcare program for the poor?

 

[Guest mz.]

I met guys from all walks of life, former almost gang members

 

This may be the funniest thing I've ever read.

 

[Westside Steve]

All societies are judged not by the haves but how the have nots are treated.

When I was in Germany,you could walk around downtown Franfurt and not see one homeless person and the streets were impeccably clean.

Im not for giving dope addicts money for their next fix or for the fat and lazy's next ben and jerrys but as a country we can and should do better.

 

 

I'm sure it's worldwide Dan.

Every morning in Dublin I'd take a pocket full of one pound coins for the beggars.

Nearly every one offered pleasant conversation BTW.

WSS

 

 

\http://www.share-international.org/archives/homelessness/hl-abGermany.htm

[calfoxwc]

I'm sure it's worldwide Dan.

Every morning in Dublin I'd take a pocket full of one pound coins for the beggars.

Nearly every one offered pleasant conversation BTW.

WSS

*************************

That's COOL, Steve.

 

We have been donating a good bit of produce to a few churches who have dinners for

 

the poor and struggling families.

 

There is a great program in Ohio, I suppose most other states, WIC ?

 

They have coupons that can only ? be used for buying fresh produce.

 

I know, we are not registered with the program yet, and we accepted two

 

coupons we can't submit for reimbursement anyways. But, I wasn't going to not sell

 

tomatoes, cucumbers, acorn squash, cherry tomatoes and green beans to

 

two young Moms with kids.

 

One of them figured out that we didn't have the sign on our table saying we were a WIC member

 

and apologized, saying she could go over to the approved vendor, but our produce looked excellent.

 

We just said we couldn't give refunds, and we were happy to accept them anyways.

 

Hey, when kids love your cherry tomatoes, we make sure they are all nicely washed so kids can sample em.

 

Gotta encourage that.

 

Oh, and I invented a new cookie. It's a zucchini, green tomato and oatmeal cookie. I have sold any because

 

I haven't made any required on the package labels. But I gave away about a hundred free cookies.

 

Well, they were a big hit with everybody. But the funny part is, some kids crinkled their noses at the

 

main ingredients, but they loved the cookie.

 

Only in America, eh?

 

But getting back to helping the poor, there are unreported unofficial programs all over the country, from churches,

 

to corporations big donations, to private individuals.

'

No one seriously buys the idea that America doesn't care to help those in need.

[Westside Steve]

Cal

Do you do a produce stand of any kind?

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

At the farmer's markets, we use tables and our vendor tent we bought.

 

I am ready to start putting a stand out in the front yard... we've just been so busy.

 

I might put it up today, we have professional produce stands, and tables, and a cool

 

tent we put up, but there's errands to run first...

 

I can sent you a list of a few farmer's produce markets around here if you want.

 

If you ever have time to visit, you won't believe the tomatoes and peppers here at the farm.

 

Well, and the weeds, Going to the markets, et all, I lost the weed battle.

 

But we did get our hay planted, and my far better half is back teaching.

 

I can't wait to try the Southern sweet potato squash I planted. A lot of folks come to

 

our booths to see different stuff, and repeat customers are really buying our produce.

 

So much so, that some of the big vendors complained that we were taking their business, and

 

the Massillon farmer's market cut the weekly vendors allowed per week down to seven, and never

 

told anybody. Well, you wait until week after next. GGG I will make certain we have competing items

 

and lower prices. I'll add flowers and I'll bake up a storm, and I'll go get some honey from a nearby producer,

 

and I'll get sweet corn if ours still isn't ready.

 

Those big producers? They buy their stuff from out of state trucks out at some big outlieing produce auctions.

 

We know, we've seen them there. We don't ever get anything out of state, and prefer only a little local Amish

 

stuff we didn't grow, but folks ask for, like white eggplant, garlic, purple green beans.

 

So, those producers? You ask them what kind of tomatoes they are, and the people there?

 

They don't have any idea. Folks can come to our booth and find out exactly.

 

Our tomatoes are a big hit. Even a few local chefs have visiited and bought our tomatoes.

 

Next year, we are going to take what we learned, and do a lot of things differently.

 

Our farm motto is "Work smarter, not harder".

 

Which, really got our neighbor farmer friend laughing... sigh.

...

 

This is just our first year. Wait til next year...!

[Westside Steve]

Cal

I just happen to be on the mainland for a few days.

We'd come down for some veggies and to say Hi.

 

I'll visit my dad in Carroll County this week.

There's a million of em if just needed vegs.

WSS

 

WSS[/b]

[Kosar_For_President]

In the service, I met guys from all walks of life, former almost gang members, the poor kids from the beaches of Puerto Rico,

 

big cities, the bayous, small towns all over ths country, ...

 

Look at Mr. Diversity. Wow. Full of shit.

 

What the hell is former almost gang member? I didn't know there were inner city gangs in the 50's? I can just picture Cal talking like the lady from the Hidden Valley Ranch commercials and Back to School on a soap box, "the poor kids from the beaches of Puerto Rico, big cities, the bayous". Cal sure knows black folk. Give me a break. Your telling a story to yourself, because your the only one who believes it.

 

[calfoxwc]

Well, I know it sounds foolish, maybe, but the guy I was thinking of, got in trouble hanging around some gang members, but hadn't joined the gang yet.

 

They were recruiting him.

 

Then, a gang fight happened, and he was hanging out with one of the gang members the next day, and they

 

were both hauled in in a round up.

 

Well, he ended up explaining who the members were, and how he was no member, and hadn't joined the gang,

 

and had no tatoo as proof.

 

But, he was given the op to join the service, or go to jail as an accomplice sp?, or at the least, get out of dodge

 

to stay healthy and away from the gang who weren't going to be happy with him after they got out.

 

I only learned this about him when we finally had leave toward the end of basic, five of us went to see

 

a movie, and over a hamburger or two, we got him talking.

 

He was actually the guy who, on the first day, was fast asleep while the TI was yelling at all of us to fall out.

 

But he didn't. As the TI was yelling in his ear, the kid pulled the pillow over his head. So, the TI was speechless for second,

 

and picked up the head of the bed, and with the end of the bed over his head, tipped the bed over and the kid

 

went to the floor.

 

He never slept in again. And really, turned out to be a good soldier, at least as far as basic went.

 

So, he was formerly almost a gang member.

 

This is all true - and I got screamed at for Gomer Pyle grinning while making my bed after he dumped the kid.

 

Well, that wasn't the last time I got yelled at for that. He was just a hilarious guy, old Ramirez, as our TI.

 

He'd goof off and make us laugh when we least expected it, then he scream at us for grinning, especially me,

 

because I just thought he was a great comedian. Well, only the part where he was being funny...

 

and I found out how many pushups I could do at one time. It was a lot of em.

 

And as far as Puerto Rico beaches? His name was Ponce, a good friend of mine in tech school in Biloxi.

 

And, it was in the early seventies, not fifties. They were so poor, they would go out into the rain forest

 

and get wild fruit. Ponce was the guy who was always broke, because he sent his entire paycheck

 

back to his family in Puerto Rico every week. He wanted his siblings, especially his sister, to be able to go to

 

college.

 

And, my roommate was a poor kid from the bayou. Biloxi is in Mississippi, you know. And Mississippi

 

is next to Louisiana.

 

He said his favorite food was alligator-crawfish cajun stew.

 

Played the guitar a lot, He sounded like Arlo Guthrie with a cajun french accent.

 

But he became a Bible thumper in a really big way, after going with us to see "The Exorcist". I never figured that one out,

 

but after that, he wasn't much of an interesting guy. I was glad when his training was done and he shipped out.

 

I never could get him back to being grounded in common sense after that movie. Weird.

 

But I was thankful it didn't happen until toward the end of his stay.

 

Oh, and the former almost gang member? He was white. Racist nothing there.

[Kosar_For_President]

Well, I know it sounds foolish, maybe, but the guy I was thinking of, got in trouble hanging around some gang members, but hadn't joined the gang yet.

 

Wow. Is that supposed to represent a whole culture. So you knew 5 guys from 36 YEARS AGO and you can constitute an opinion (fact in your eyes) based on that. LOL. Whatever dude. Just shows how out of touch you are.

[Guest mz.]

I didn't know there were inner city gangs in the 50's?

 

 

[calfoxwc]

That's just a few examples.

 

Do you want me to talk at length about

 

maybe 20?

 

30?

 

Let me know, I could write a book.

 

I know, I know. You just want to have some

 

serious conversation, which means you get to be a smart ass

 

all the time for no reason.

[Kosar_For_President]

That's just a few examples.

 

Do you want me to talk at length about

 

maybe 20?

 

30?

 

Let me know, I could write a book.

 

I know, I know. You just want to have some

 

serious conversation, which means you get to be a smart ass

 

all the time for no reason.

 

All my "smart-ass" responses to you are referencing your opinion, which you take as fact. Dispelling the fact, that your world in fact, is not fact. You compile some assemblance of non-fictional statistical rhetoric based on 20 - 30 people you knew 38 years ago? Wow 20 or 30 of "them", well goooolllly, Pile.

 

Let's take this a step further. Cal knows 20 - 30 "liberals" so he must know that they all are hippies, they smelt the metal in guns to make jewelry and they abort babies in their free time. See what I am getting at here. This applies to every opinion (NOT FACT) you have.

 

Cal Translation: "smart-ass" = Your smart and I can't keep up.

[calfoxwc]

Cal Translation: "smart-ass" = Your smart and I can't keep up. K

***************************************************

 

It's "you're", as in, "you are".

 

When you use "your", it is the possessive form of "you".

 

No, "smart ass" means you think you are, but "YOU'RE" just being an ass.

 

See?

 

"you're" = "you are"

 

So much for intelligent conversation attempts with you, again.

[Kosar_For_President]

Cal Translation: "smart-ass" = Your smart and I can't keep up. K

***************************************************

 

It's "you're", as in, "you are".

 

When you use "your", it is the possessive form of "you".

 

No, "smart ass" means you think you are, but "YOU'RE" just being an ass.

 

See?

 

"you're" = "you are"

 

So much for intelligent conversation attempts with you, again.

 

Yep, reduced to grammar smack. You can't even defend yourself. The truth hurts. How weak, you must be a liberal.

[Westside Steve]

I caught a very good documentary on the history channel about how well the public works projects that started in the 30's and lasted till the sixties was part on the industrial revolution that was a huge part of what made us great and during those years we spent an average of 10 to 12% of our national budget on infrastructure where as today that number is roughly 2 to 4%.

 

All across the country roads and bridges are in massive disrepair,putting people to work and spending the money on roads and bridges makes more sense to me than these two wars ,were wasting billions and squandering the lives of our troops in a zero sum game.

 

OK

So YOU tell the teamsters we're bringing it back Danny.

See ya when they find Hoffa.

<G>

WSS

[Westside Steve]

C'mon Steve,

Thats pretty weak.

Even you admitted and I agreed with you that the cash for cars was a pretty good idea and should have been the entire bailout for the auto industry and in my humble opinion putting the unemployed to work seems like a better idea than handing out four hundred dollar checks.

 

 

It's not weak at all Dan.

I think the Public Works program would be a good thing.

Also Obama's Public Service idea (from what I heard).

 

I just don't see a chance in hell the unions would stand for it.

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

I caught a very good documentary on the history channel about how well the public works projects that started in the 30's and lasted till the sixties was part on the industrial revolution that was a huge part of what made us great and during those years we spent an average of 10 to 12% of our national budget on infrastructure where as today that number is roughly 2 to 4%.

 

All across the country roads and bridges are in massive disrepair,putting people to work and spending the money on roads and bridges makes more sense to me than these two wars ,were wasting billions and squandering the lives of our troops in a zero sum game.

****************************************

 

Those public works programs saved all those families and worker's... nothing wrong with that.

 

 

But there are different obstacles now. Steve is right, I think, about the union objections.

 

 

But today, our country is far more populated.

 

 

And, right now, we are so far in debt, we can't afford a major national public works program and a natinal health care program,

 

and we never could afford the national health care program.

 

 

Technology is far more advanced, from equipment used, including computer tech - I would think we are a long

 

 

way from just bringing a bunch of out of work folks in some of the jobs now. But I'd support that public works program.

 

But it is unrealistic to suggest that we discontinue the war on terror now, and just fund other things.

 

The worldwide terror movement was growing for centuries, and with the world becoming a smaller place all the time,

 

it's a war that can't be ignored. Not that I think we should foot the freakin entire bill...

 

 

 

[calfoxwc]

Nothing wrong with a public works program. Give familes with unemployed providers a huge break, and benefit our

 

country in the process.

 

But the union objections is a valid issue I think.

 

More than that though, it's a far more populated country than way back in the 30's/40's.

 

Technology is obviously advanced past just bringing folks in for some jobs.

 

That includes highway repair equipment, the application of computer tech in so many areas,

 

but the biggest difference is, our national debt now, we can't afford the public works program and bailouts

 

and the national health care and what good does it do for our country to send 2 billion dollars to Brazil

 

to drill for oil, in a company that has Obama's friend and financial supporter in his political career, George Soros

 

as practically an owner?

 

Seriously, would it be better to have clamped down on those @@ who pretty much created the houseing

 

loan crash, and used that bailout money for a public works program?

 

Better to have NOT sent Brazil and Soros' oil company that 2 billion and instead, used to start the launch of a

 

public works program?

 

Better to have NOT given the bailout to GM to avoid bankruptcy, since it didn't work anyways, let them go

 

bankrupt anyway without the bailout, and simply reorganized and streamlined ?

 

And used THAT bailout money for a public works program?

 

And it's unfair to diss the work of our military folks who are fighting the war on terror. The extremist terrorist

 

"Islamic" movement never was born of Bush I or II. It had been building for centuries.

 

But, with the world becoming a smaller place all the time, the war against it must be fought.

 

That is just reality. Ignore it and you get another 9/11, in one form or another.

 

I don't see anything political about a public works program - it would just be very, very expensive at a

 

very, very bad financial era of our country.

[Chicopee John]

I caught a very good documentary on the history channel about how well the public works projects that started in the 30's and lasted till the sixties was part on the industrial revolution that was a huge part of what made us great and during those years we spent an average of 10 to 12% of our national budget on infrastructure where as today that number is roughly 2 to 4%.

 

All across the country roads and bridges are in massive disrepair,putting people to work and spending the money on roads and bridges makes more sense to me than these two wars ,were wasting billions and squandering the lives of our troops in a zero sum game.

 

 

Unfortunately, it looks like some of the severe needs (bridges, etc.) are beling overlooked for, what I consider to be - real reaches in terms of stimulous.

 

I am all for rebuilding the infrastructure.

 

One point about the percentages you cited................so much of the public pie is devoted to social programs that it would likely be impossible to achieve the 10% - 12% of the national budget for public works.

 

 

 

[Mr. T]

You guys are sitting here telling me how Obama can fail but not how he or for that matter the country can succeed,pretty pessimistic outlook dont you think?

 

 

Sure' the plan of action is to replace all left wingers during the mid terms.

 

Americans are tired of 11 months of the federal government expanding, but the minions follow right along while Obama's polls keep going down down down.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

Dan,

 

I'm glad you are not calling me a farging dipshit for having an opinion that differs from yours.

 

Of course, I didn't criticize Obama much...

 

Soros was not used as any defense against getting things done. Stop that.

 

The Soros thing is money well-wasted and had no benefit to our country. That's 2 BILLION.

 

And, there are many kinds of other examples. Why talk about making our country better,

 

and not admitting that our country is sending trillions of dollars in spending that won't make

 

everything better?

 

WHY have a new health care system, that admittedly by the proponents, will put about

 

20 million OUT of their CURRENT health insurance? WHY support that?

 

I keep saying, to FIX the problems with our otherwise terrific health care system. WHY support

 

a whole new system with devasting results in other areas, as seen in Britain and Canada?

 

The union thing may very well end up being a roadblock. Wasn't there a building

 

New York, maybe? where because of the unions, plumbing had to be installed? But

 

the commodes were self contained? Something like that...

 

What I meant about the troops? I feel you are dissing our troops, albeit unintentionally, by

 

diminshing their sacrifice in the war on terror. Every lost soldier over there hurts all of us.

 

But, the Islamic extremist cult has been growing for centuries, and it has to be ungrown.

 

I honestly don't understand what you wrote about extremists coming out of womb but not all of them

 

and what if Christians invaded our count..ry.... Yep. Makes no sense to me.

 

But, Obama himself has politicized his agenda again and again. So, it isn't any jump to conclusion

 

to guess his intentions are all too often politically oriented, and not America's success oriented.

 

The best example is, how can Obama think that our country is more success by endorsing a health

 

care plan he hadn't even read, spending 2 billion on Soros' oil company to drill for oil off Brazil's coasts,

 

and breaking the promises he's broken?