Vaccination mandate

[MLD Woody]

12 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

I disagree. Lifestyle changes are what we've been pushing for since I was a medical student, and we're lucky if 1 in 10 patients listen to us. You're a really good and persuasive clinician if you can get that number to 1 in 5. Just like with weight loss, people would take a pill to make them healthy if they could, never mind that it doesn't exist. Now, these same people think that the vaccine is a panacea, despite the fact that the fully vaccinated can still experience the worst symptoms, and I don't see that changing in the near future. If the majority of Americans bothered to take care of their health, this virus wouldn't be nearly as scary as it is. There are legitimate reasons for anyone to be vaccine hesitant. I can't really make the same argument for the morbidly obese. 

The "worst symptoms" would be death, correct? Aren't the vary vast majority of those dying from covid unvaccinated?

 

Sure, yeah, don't be overweight and that helps. Same can be said about most illnesses, especially anything respiratory. Unfortunately we live in a very unhealthy and overweight country. 

 

 

Maybe the negative side of "personal freedoms" isn't being chosen more recently. Maybe it just took a pandemic to really highlight the negatives in the beliefs and actions that were already happening. 

[Browns149]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:53 PM, Axe said:

That’s hilarious 

[VaporTrail]

11 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

The "worst symptoms" would be death, correct? Aren't the vary vast majority of those dying from covid unvaccinated?

 

Sure, yeah, don't be overweight and that helps. Same can be said about most illnesses, especially anything respiratory. Unfortunately we live in a very unhealthy and overweight country. 

 

 

Maybe the negative side of "personal freedoms" isn't being chosen more recently. Maybe it just took a pandemic to really highlight the negatives in the beliefs and actions that were already happening. 

The worst symptoms include respiratory failure requiring intubation and an ICU stay. If you are vaccinated, your risk of those is only lowered if you have the comorbidities like obesity and hypertension and diabetes and being elderly. The vaccine should be recommended to those at risk, like the flu and pneumonia vaccines, we are beyond the point of reaching herd immunity, and with the mutability of the virus it's essentially going to be endemic from here on out. I don't have numbers to support the statement I'm about to make, but of the 22% of COVID patients who die from the virus that aren't obese, I would wager at least 15-18 of those percentage points are people over 50. So when I hear "most of the deaths are unvaccinated," it really is not cause for alarm because the ones who are dying are still the unhealthy and the elderly. 

[bigbambo]

45 minutes ago, VaporTrail said:

The worst symptoms include respiratory failure requiring intubation and an ICU stay. If you are vaccinated, your risk of those is only lowered if you have the comorbidities like obesity and hypertension and diabetes and being elderly. The vaccine should be recommended to those at risk, like the flu and pneumonia vaccines, we are beyond the point of reaching herd immunity, and with the mutability of the virus it's essentially going to be endemic from here on out. I don't have numbers to support the statement I'm about to make, but of the 22% of COVID patients who die from the virus that aren't obese, I would wager at least 15-18 of those percentage points are people over 50. So when I hear "most of the deaths are unvaccinated," it really is not cause for alarm because the ones who are dying are still the unhealthy and the elderly. 

You better say the unvaccinated are killin everyone or these fools will hound you to the end...........I did like this statement.... 

Lifestyle changes are what we've been pushing for since I was a medical student, and we're lucky if 1 in 10 patients listen to us. You're a really good and persuasive clinician if you can get that number to 1 in 5."

I'll bet the healthcare field has more fat-asses then any other profession (if you don't count welfare as a profession). 

 

 

[MLD Woody]

2 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

The worst symptoms include respiratory failure requiring intubation and an ICU stay. If you are vaccinated, your risk of those is only lowered if you have the comorbidities like obesity and hypertension and diabetes and being elderly. The vaccine should be recommended to those at risk, like the flu and pneumonia vaccines, we are beyond the point of reaching herd immunity, and with the mutability of the virus it's essentially going to be endemic from here on out. I don't have numbers to support the statement I'm about to make, but of the 22% of COVID patients who die from the virus that aren't obese, I would wager at least 15-18 of those percentage points are people over 50. So when I hear "most of the deaths are unvaccinated," it really is not cause for alarm because the ones who are dying are still the unhealthy and the elderly. 

I mean, are we really calling anything over 50 as "elderly"?

And, not to be a dick, but I'd absolutely want some data to back up your point. 

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

And, not to be a dick, but I'd absolutely want some data to back up your point. 

baloney. You never give data for your contentions, woodpecker. You look at everything sideways:

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Well, when even before you turn 50 is when you start getting letters from AARP to join.  So................

[BaconHound]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:50 PM, Westside Steve said:

You guys know I'm pro vaccine but I'm not stupid I'm pretty sure what it can and can't do. Just on balance. That being said I said without commentary on the effects of the vaccine, if it were up to you would you rather have the police firefighters EMS and medical staff on the job and worrying masks? Or do you think it's more valuable to take a hard line and enforce the mandate. And I'm not asking for commentary on the effectiveness of masks just asking.  I'm a little more curious about the guys from the progressive side.

I'll see how far this one last 

WSS

I’d rather have the mandate. I don’t put a lot of faith in those who don’t trust science. And as we are seeing the number of dropouts isn’t that high.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

On 11/1/2021 at 10:34 AM, Canton Dawg said:

Yep, got my 3rd Pfizer shot on Friday.

Got my Pfizer booster (3rd shot) on Wednesday.  Felt kind of shitty yesterday, but feel fine today.

[BaconHound]

11 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

Got my Pfizer booster (3rd shot) on Wednesday.  Felt kind of shitty yesterday, but feel fine today.

Got my Moderna Booster Monday and the same.

[Westside Steve]

22 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

Got my Pfizer booster (3rd shot) on Wednesday.  Felt kind of shitty yesterday, but feel fine today.

Pfizer has three shots?

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

All of them offer a booster now. Pfizer was the first.

[bigbambo]

I FOLLOW THE SCIENCE.........The CDC is the only one out of 100 studies that claims the vaccinated are protected better than natural immunity ........you're following something but it's not science.........think hard about that.......maybe you're following an ass, can't you smell it?

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

Never thought I would see the day grown men are giddy over getting an unknown juicer or two or three or four................ 

[VaporTrail]

23 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

I mean, are we really calling anything over 50 as "elderly"?

And, not to be a dick, but I'd absolutely want some data to back up your point. 

Yes, in my clinical experience, age 50 is when previously healthy people start to fall victim to Father Time. I think the data below demonstrates this very well. 

You're not a dick for asking for data to back up your point. I don't have exactly the data that I want because I'm not sure it's been compiled yet (i.e. - what is the % of total COVID deaths are comprised of people with BMI in the normal range who are elderly). This data is about as close as I can get. As you can see, the total share of COVID deaths goes up significantly in the 50-64 age cohort.

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

This is data from the CDC that stratifies bad outcomes as a function of BMI. They do a limited stratification of age, and the risk ratio compares the relative risk of the outcome by BMI. This data demonstrates a clear correlation between obesity and worse outcomes, as well as frailty and worse outcomes. 

This data does a better stratification of age and BMI and outcomes. x-axis is BMI, y-axis relative risk. Top row is all ages combined, bottom row is stratified by age group. The bottom right graph demonstrates that if you have a normal BMI and are age 50, you're about 10 times more likely to die than someone of the same BMI who is age 18-39. It's about the same for invasive ventilation. Risk of hospitalizations, ICU admissions, mechanical ventilation, and death all correlate nearly linearly to above normal BMI, regardless of age group. 

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm

I actually hadn't seen this second set of data until you asked me to look it up, but it clearly reinforces what I'm seeing in my own clinical experience. These graphs show odds ratios and not exact numbers, so we can't exactly extrapolate these graphs to the percentages I initially posited. Regardless, I think my inference is a fair one, and if you disagree, I'd be happy to hear an argument against. 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Actually, I'd say late 40's is when you start feeling the effects of age.  Then 50 hits and you can see the effects, even when you work out daily, take supplements, etc.  Age don't give a fuck.

[Westside Steve]

18 hours ago, BaconHound said:

I’d rather have the mandate. I don’t put a lot of faith in those who don’t trust science. And as we are seeing the number of dropouts isn’t that high.

I don't think it's a matter of not trusting science. I believe it's more a matter of actual science indecision about how vital vaccination can possibly be. And for whom.

WSS

[Vambo]

[bigbambo]

23 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

I mean, are we really calling anything over 50 as "elderly"?

And, not to be a dick, but I'd absolutely want some data to back up your point. 

This guy swallows and defends the most unbelievable stuff that spews from the bellicose left............but wants data to back up people over 50 are on a health decline.  .   lots of moving parts, ya know 

That's not being a dick......

[calfoxwc]

On 11/5/2021 at 11:13 AM, MLD Woody said:

And, not to be a dick, but I'd absolutely want some data to back up your point. 

[MLD Woody]

2 hours ago, bigbambo said:

This guy swallows and defends the most unbelievable stuff that spews from the bellicose left............but wants data to back up people over 50 are on a health decline.  .   lots of moving parts, ya know 

That's not being a dick......

You completely misses my point, but you've come out of the gate here fighting to be the dumbest poster. And given others that post in this board, that's certainly saying something. You're certainly not putting any of your beliefs in a good light. 

[MLD Woody]

3 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

Yes, in my clinical experience, age 50 is when previously healthy people start to fall victim to Father Time. I think the data below demonstrates this very well. 

You're not a dick for asking for data to back up your point. I don't have exactly the data that I want because I'm not sure it's been compiled yet (i.e. - what is the % of total COVID deaths are comprised of people with BMI in the normal range who are elderly). This data is about as close as I can get. As you can see, the total share of COVID deaths goes up significantly in the 50-64 age cohort.

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

This is data from the CDC that stratifies bad outcomes as a function of BMI. They do a limited stratification of age, and the risk ratio compares the relative risk of the outcome by BMI. This data demonstrates a clear correlation between obesity and worse outcomes, as well as frailty and worse outcomes. 

This data does a better stratification of age and BMI and outcomes. x-axis is BMI, y-axis relative risk. Top row is all ages combined, bottom row is stratified by age group. The bottom right graph demonstrates that if you have a normal BMI and are age 50, you're about 10 times more likely to die than someone of the same BMI who is age 18-39. It's about the same for invasive ventilation. Risk of hospitalizations, ICU admissions, mechanical ventilation, and death all correlate nearly linearly to above normal BMI, regardless of age group. 

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm

I actually hadn't seen this second set of data until you asked me to look it up, but it clearly reinforces what I'm seeing in my own clinical experience. These graphs show odds ratios and not exact numbers, so we can't exactly extrapolate these graphs to the percentages I initially posited. Regardless, I think my inference is a fair one, and if you disagree, I'd be happy to hear an argument against. 

Thank you for that response. The data is definitely very clear. I realize I may not have been clear in my post though. I wasn't questioning the fact that old and/or overweight people have a higher risk from COVID. I think that is clear for pretty much most illnesses. I was directing that comment at your statement that the vaccine only reduces the risk from COVID for those that already have comorbidities like being overweight. If you're already at a higher risk I would imagine the vaccine can reduce your risk more, which just intuitively makes sense. There is more risk for it to reduce in the first place. I'm saying I question that the vaccine only reduces risk in those cases. (Though, with that being said, I wonder what % of the population has at least one thing considered a comorbidity).

Also, what do you think the spike for risk is for this with a very low BMI? At that point is someone just malnutrioned? I thought it would just be for frail old people but the risk is actually higher in the under 65 group. I'd have to imagine that is just some sample size abnormality or something. 

 

 

My comment around 50 year olds wasn't to disagree that people start feeling the effects of age by then. My comment was in regards to your post, where you kind of came off as "Well, they're dying by they're old, not much to worry about". But then gave 50 as the "elderly" turning point. That just seemed like a low age to  say "oh well, father time, etc etc".

[bigbambo]

28 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Thank you for that response. The data is definitely very clear. I realize I may not have been clear in my post though. I wasn't questioning the fact that old and/or overweight people have a higher risk from COVID. I think that is clear for pretty much most illnesses. I was directing that comment at your statement that the vaccine only reduces the risk from COVID for those that already have comorbidities like being overweight. If you're already at a higher risk I would imagine the vaccine can reduce your risk more, which just intuitively makes sense. There is more risk for it to reduce in the first place. I'm saying I question that the vaccine only reduces risk in those cases. (Though, with that being said, I wonder what % of the population has at least one thing considered a comorbidity).

Also, what do you think the spike for risk is for this with a very low BMI? At that point is someone just malnutrioned? I thought it would just be for frail old people but the risk is actually higher in the under 65 group. I'd have to imagine that is just some sample size abnormality or something. 

 

 

My comment around 50 year olds wasn't to disagree that people start feeling the effects of age by then. My comment was in regards to your post, where you kind of came off as "Well, they're dying by they're old, not much to worry about". But then gave 50 as the "elderly" turning point. That just seemed like a low age to  say "oh well, father time, etc etc".

I mean, are we really calling anything over 50 as "elderly"?

Who asked this^^^^^^^^^^^^oh, we didn't understand...oh my sides hurt!

 

Blah Blah Blah...clear as mud.....lol........stay in your lane....bust me for not understanding then grovel with the doc that can't understand your dumb ass either

Stick to faking .....it wears so well on you

39 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

You completely misses my point, but you've come out of the gate here fighting to be the dumbest poster. And given others that post in this board, that's certainly saying something. You're certainly not putting any of your beliefs in a good light. 

P.S.   If you need new material, pm me

[VaporTrail]

20 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

I was directing that comment at your statement that the vaccine only reduces the risk from COVID for those that already have comorbidities like being overweight. If you're already at a higher risk I would imagine the vaccine can reduce your risk more, which just intuitively makes sense. There is more risk for it to reduce in the first place. I'm saying I question that the vaccine only reduces risk in those cases. (Though, with that being said, I wonder what % of the population has at least one thing considered a comorbidity).

I'm not sure that there is data out there specifically to support or detract from that point. I did find this study from the English government that touches on it. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf#page=14

This data was collected over 3 weeks. It demonstrates that you're more likely to be hospitalized for at least one night among all age groups if you're unvaccinated. It demonstrates that you are considerably more likely to die if you are over the age of 30 and unvaccinated, compared to vaccinated people of the same age group. However, it does not control for obesity, which I'm guessing would reduce that factor in the younger age groups. I think the hospitalizations with just a 1-night stay is way too broad of a population - we call those folks bed and breakfast guests, and a lot of the time, they really don't need to be admitted. 

I think the questions that you're asking are fair, but I just don't know that the data we are looking for has been compiled yet. 

35 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Also, what do you think the spike for risk is for this with a very low BMI? At that point is someone just malnutrioned? I thought it would just be for frail old people but the risk is actually higher in the under 65 group. I'd have to imagine that is just some sample size abnormality or something. 

Malnutrition is the common factor in anyone that frail. Adults with BMI < 18.5 look like skeletons. The studies do not control for why people are that skinny - you'll see a lot of anorexia/bulimia in younger patients, cancers can appear at any stage of life, they're probably most common when really old and really young, or you could have some sort of neurological disease resulting in muscle weakness and atrophy. If your BMI is that low, then you are probably seriously ill and likely to get knocked out by a cold. 

[calfoxwc]

Will the personal insults ever end with the sissy woodpecker? It's all he ever does.

it's boring. But he tries so desperately to sound like he has any kind of legit clue.

Most all? of the time, he makes assertions and never explains WHY he asserts what he chirps.

 

[bigbambo]

21 minutes ago, VaporTrail said:

I'm not sure that there is data out there specifically to support or detract from that point. I did find this study from the English government that touches on it. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf#page=14

This data was collected over 3 weeks. It demonstrates that you're more likely to be hospitalized for at least one night among all age groups if you're unvaccinated. It demonstrates that you are considerably more likely to die if you are over the age of 30 and unvaccinated, compared to vaccinated people of the same age group. However, it does not control for obesity, which I'm guessing would reduce that factor in the younger age groups. I think the hospitalizations with just a 1-night stay is way too broad of a population - we call those folks bed and breakfast guests, and a lot of the time, they really don't need to be admitted. 

I think the questions that you're asking are fair, but I just don't know that the data we are looking for has been compiled yet. 

Malnutrition is the common factor in anyone that frail. Adults with BMI < 18.5 look like skeletons. The studies do not control for why people are that skinny - you'll see a lot of anorexia/bulimia in younger patients, cancers can appear at any stage of life, they're probably most common when really old and really young, or you could have some sort of neurological disease resulting in muscle weakness and atrophy. If your BMI is that low, then you are probably seriously ill and likely to get knocked out by a cold. 

A very nice way of saying.......what is this whacko talking about?   

On 11/5/2021 at 11:13 AM, MLD Woody said:

I mean, are we really calling anything over 50 as "elderly"?

And, not to be a dick, but I'd absolutely want some data to back up your point. 

From this one question......we should have understood all of this...

Thank you for that response. The data is definitely very clear. I realize I may not have been clear in my post though. I wasn't questioning the fact that old and/or overweight people have a higher risk from COVID. I think that is clear for pretty much most illnesses. I was directing that comment at your statement that the vaccine only reduces the risk from COVID for those that already have comorbidities like being overweight. If you're already at a higher risk I would imagine the vaccine can reduce your risk more, which just intuitively makes sense. There is more risk for it to reduce in the first place. I'm saying I question that the vaccine only reduces risk in those cases. (Though, with that being said, I wonder what % of the population has at least one thing considered a comorbidity).

I can see you voting for the double bubble of biden/harris. Does your father-in-law own the company you space for?

[Vambo]

[MLD Woody]

4 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

I'm not sure that there is data out there specifically to support or detract from that point. I did find this study from the English government that touches on it. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf#page=14

This data was collected over 3 weeks. It demonstrates that you're more likely to be hospitalized for at least one night among all age groups if you're unvaccinated. It demonstrates that you are considerably more likely to die if you are over the age of 30 and unvaccinated, compared to vaccinated people of the same age group. However, it does not control for obesity, which I'm guessing would reduce that factor in the younger age groups. I think the hospitalizations with just a 1-night stay is way too broad of a population - we call those folks bed and breakfast guests, and a lot of the time, they really don't need to be admitted. 

I think the questions that you're asking are fair, but I just don't know that the data we are looking for has been compiled yet. 

Malnutrition is the common factor in anyone that frail. Adults with BMI < 18.5 look like skeletons. The studies do not control for why people are that skinny - you'll see a lot of anorexia/bulimia in younger patients, cancers can appear at any stage of life, they're probably most common when really old and really young, or you could have some sort of neurological disease resulting in muscle weakness and atrophy. If your BMI is that low, then you are probably seriously ill and likely to get knocked out by a cold. 

No you're right, it seems like there are bits and pieces of data everywhere for individual points (worse if you're  older, worse if you're overweight, etc.) but no mass study looking at "risk" (hospitalizations, deaths, etc) for vaccinated and unvaccinated patients that are controlled for BMI (or something like that). Then you'd have some kind of study to look at your original point, that the vaccine only reduces risk in those that are already at a higher risk due to comorbidities. 

Also, I know BMI is a simple but flawed  metric. It doesn't work as well for the "fringe" heights (really short, really tall). Mathematically it doesn't work as well. And then obviously the fact it is just weight, not fat, so a muscular person could be considered "overweight", but given the standard American that isn't coming up much I'd have to think...

 

That is a good point in your last paragraph. That if your BMI is that low, especially at a younger age, there is probably some underlying condition already. 

[bigbambo]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

No you're right, it seems like there are bits and pieces of data everywhere for individual points (worse if you're  older, worse if you're overweight, etc.) but no mass study looking at "risk" (hospitalizations, deaths, etc) for vaccinated and unvaccinated patients that are controlled for BMI (or something like that). Then you'd have some kind of study to look at your original point, that the vaccine only reduces risk in those that are already at a higher risk due to comorbidities. 

Also, I know BMI is a simple but flawed  metric. It doesn't work as well for the "fringe" heights (really short, really tall). Mathematically it doesn't work as well. And then obviously the fact it is just weight, not fat, so a muscular person could be considered "overweight", but given the standard American that isn't coming up much I'd have to think...

 

That is a good point in your last paragraph. That if your BMI is that low, especially at a younger age, there is probably some underlying condition already. 

Did I fool you....keep acting because now you think you may not be the smartest in the room.........chokin is what I would call it.........I was way smarter than my dad but I remember him saying.....the smartest man in the room depends solely on your condition.....your room would need to be MT for all conditions

[Ibleedbrown]

Here’s my spin on all this. I’m not really a “life is precious” kinda guy. The greater whole of life is important, but individual lives? Not so much. When you get right down to it, we’re all replaceable. 

This is why l like the idea of getting half the population vaccinated, and the other half not vaccinated. That way, if the vaccine truly is some sort of time released death serum and everyone who gets it keels over dead, at least half the population will survive.

And if the flipside is true where the only people who survive the next killer covid variant are the ones who did get vaccinated, and all the unvaccinated keel over and die, well that works too. 

It’s kinda like the Thanos plan. I figure the survivors will be bummed out for a while, but once they get over it life will be so much nicer. Real estate will be cheap and plentiful. Same with food. Traffic won’t be such a drag. Life will be simpler. 

[Vambo]