I have had my fill, and I am going to vent: That's MY QB!

[SdBacker80]

11 minutes ago, Zombo said:

What limitations?

Other than being hurt. This season got ugly right away with Wills going down in Week 1, then Hubbard, then Conklin.

As a consequence, Baker has been knocked around like never before, suffered three painful injuries that would have benched a lesser man ... and THAT has limited him.

But when he's healthy ... like last year ... what are his limitations? Please list them.

Z

Quickly….

Year 4 his ability to decipher coverage and make quick decisions is not up to a standard of QB that will probably command upwards of 30-35M.   He holds onto the ball too long. He’s had problems with leaving clean pockets.

He’s a playaction QB but when placed outside of that fish bowl he struggles.  See our 5 wide empty backfield struggles. 

Hes struggled with throws outside of the hashes. 

Good one week bad the next…hallmark of being average.  The intangibles make him above average.  

Off the charts competitor…strong arm….2020 deep ball was stellar.

 

 

 

[Zombo]

2 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Quickly….

Year 4 his ability to decipher coverage and make quick decisions is not up to a standard of QB that will probably command upwards of 30-35M.   He holds onto the ball too long. He’s had problems with leaving clean pockets.

He’s a playaction QB but when placed outside of that fish bowl he struggles.  See our 5 wide empty backfield struggles. 

Hes struggled with throws outside of the hashes. 

Good one week bad the next…hallmark of being average.  The intangibles make him above average.  

Off the charts competitor…strong arm….2020 deep ball was stellar.

 

You understood the assignment, now let me pick apart your response:

Quote

Year 4 his ability to decipher coverage and make quick decisions is not up to a standard of QB that will probably command upwards of 30-35M.   He holds onto the ball too long. He’s had problems with leaving clean pockets.

He's had a good offensive line (when healthy) and he has one of the quickest releases in the NFl, so I can see where he gets into the habit of holding the ball too long, but that is not something that can't be improved, 4th year or not.

As for deciphering coverage, I think he is damn good at it, which is one of the reasons he's holding the ball long and leaving the pocket ... Because he knows where Not to throw it. With all the criticism he is taking this year, he has a lower Int percentage than both Lamar Jackson and Joe Burrow.

Quote

He’s a playaction QB but when placed outside of that fish bowl he struggles.  See our 5 wide empty backfield struggles. 

Hmmm ... Do you mean this year, the banged up Baker with his 3 top Tackles injured or out, or is this something you brought up last year too?

Quote

Hes struggled with throws outside of the hashes. 

Ya, I'm gonna go ahead an call bullshit on that one. I have seen some spectacular sideline throws delivered on a laser. He throws an out as good as anyone ... unless you've got some stats to prove me wrong.

Quote

The intangibles make him above average.  

Off the charts competitor…strong arm….2020 deep ball was stellar.

Well, so if you have an above average starter in this league, what do you do?

You certainly give him a second conteact.

I'll leave the numbers to Berry and Depo, but if you think the better call to let him go somewhere else and start all over with some mid-round rookie with a 50/50 shot of making it ... No.

You can build a winning team around this guy ... Oh, wait, we already did that.

Zombo

[nickers]

3 hours ago, Zombo said:

Did you miss last year, Bud?

Z

no they just want a reason to hate him.. They want the next Derek McFrye... Because.. They were so fucking great!... WHAT!!

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, Zombo said:

Baker tells it like it is. No bullshit. My favorite Cleveland Brown in a long time.

I follow his wife on Insta. She posts great stuff, she shares fan posts, tons of them. Everyone jumps on this particular one that was in the mix and runs with it, as, sadly our culture has become.

I assure you she meant it as no swipe at the rest of the team. She has said so.

She's the one that sees him get out of bed in the morning with a purple shoulder, a purple knee and a purple foot. She sees him struggling to get up and go to treatment, she sees how much pain he is in when he gets home. Family Members are protective. Are we really upset that his wife reposted something protective of her husband?

It's not like his Daddy was posting videos of all the times he got hit and aimed it at his Oline and posted #FreeBaker and Baker stayed mum on it. What kind of asshole would do that to his teammates? Maybe some douchebag on the Rams ... That shit don't fly in Cleveland. 

Keep being awesome, Baker, we got your back.

Most of us, anyway.

Z

Awesome Z? Not in the last two games. He pretty much sucked, and admitted as much. As I told Gunner- 54 qbr with two TDs and three interceptions. I'll posit Keenum (or some practice squad qB) could hardly have done done any worse. He's hurt- and those hurts ARE affecting his performance.  

And to reply to your rebuttal of SC (Baker has a quick release) sure- but the problem is, at Tia has pointed out if you were listening. A quick release won't do you much good if your ability to decipher post snap reads is slow.  You wonder why he dances around in the pocket if his primary read isn't open? There's your answer.  

Yes Z Baker is a huge improvement over the likes of Brandon Weeden and Deshone Kizer...  When he's healthy... Which he ISN'T right now. LOL- sadly, his performance against the Lions sort of reminded me of dear old Deshone's play. A healthy Baker is at least as good as the Bengals Andy Dalton who took Cincy to multiple years of playoffs. 

The only valid excuse against the crappy Lions is he's hurt worse than he's letting on. He had everyone back except Conklin and DPJ- and he stunk. (Johnson's current level of play is more than an adequate replacement for Hunt) And if he's that hurt- he shouldn't be out there playing- MHO.  

3 hours ago, Zombo said:

We've won two out of three while he recovers, we're not going to make the switch now, or ever.

I'm glad we are on the road this week, in Primetime, Baker is going to shine, because no one has been harder on his performance than himself, and no one knows how to make it better than himself.

Then he gets two weeks off to rest his bruises, breaks and pains, and we continue our assault on the AFC North.

This storyline is setting us up for glory, I'm glad I will be able to say I backed him 100% when he was suffering, because the rewards are tenfold when you believe in something or someone.

Go get em, Brownies, we got them right where we want them!

Z

Can I have some of your Baker kool-aid? Mind over matter? It's bordering on arrogance.  Hey- my nephew is hiking the Grand Canyon next spring.. Sure, I'll go with him- it will be way cool. But I'm realistic enough to say my 70 year old body isn't up for it anymore.  I just hope Baker will do the same- that his body isn't doing what his mind is telling it to do.  

[hoorta]

33 minutes ago, nickers said:

no they just want a reason to hate him.. They want the next Derek McFrye... Because.. They were so fucking great!... WHAT!!

Hate? Not at all.. Just concerned that his ego won't let him admit those injuries are affecting his play.  

[Zombo]

52 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Awesome Z? Not in the last two games. He pretty much sucked, and admitted as much. As I told Gunner- 54 qbr with two TDs and three interceptions. I'll posit Keenum (or some practice squad qB) could hardly have done done any worse. He's hurt- and those hurts ARE affecting his performance.  

And to reply to your rebuttal of SC (Baker has a quick release) sure- but the problem is, at Tia has pointed out if you were listening. A quick release won't do you much good if your ability to decipher post snap reads is slow.  You wonder why he dances around in the pocket if his primary read isn't open? There's your answer.  

Yes Z Baker is a huge improvement over the likes of Brandon Weeden and Deshone Kizer...  When he's healthy... Which he ISN'T right now. LOL- sadly, his performance against the Lions sort of reminded me of dear old Deshone's play. A healthy Baker is at least as good as the Bengals Andy Dalton who took Cincy to multiple years of playoffs. 

The only valid excuse against the crappy Lions is he's hurt worse than he's letting on. He had everyone back except Conklin and DPJ- and he stunk. (Johnson's current level of play is more than an adequate replacement for Hunt) And if he's that hurt- he shouldn't be out there playing- MHO.  

Can I have some of your Baker kool-aid? Mind over matter? It's bordering on arrogance.  Hey- my nephew is hiking the Grand Canyon next spring.. Sure, I'll go with him- it will be way cool. But I'm realistic enough to say my 70 year old body isn't up for it anymore.  I just hope Baker will do the same- that his body isn't doing what his mind is telling it to do.  

Too much going on there ... what is your point? That you feel like the Season will be lost if we don't start Case Keenum at QB?

I love Case, but he is a backup. Four franchises let him start, four franchises let him go and replaced him with a better option the next year.

Baker is the unquestioned starter, and he is going to play. If he is physically capable of playing, he is starting.

So maybe it's time for an attitude change for ol' Lar.

Try replacing "Baker Mayfield is ruining our chances" to "Damn, that kid is fighting so hard, I'm rooting for him. I hope he beats Baltimore and gets healthy and then we make another run like last year! That was fun! Winning is fun! Rooting for a warrior like Baker is fun! I'm going to save my best wine for Sunday Night after Baker and the Browns beat Baltimore!"

Your life will become better, You'll wake up happy and hopeful. Food will taste better, Your laundry will smell better. Your wife won't remind you so much of Baker Mayfield.

Zombo

[Orion]

18 hours ago, gumby73 said:

Fitting ?  Plan B ?

Michigan Man joining rant sessions again... 

 

 

BrownsTherapy

 

@BrownsTherapy

Why is it that it’s always @richeisen that has to be the one with Common Sense & has to wake up some of the #Browns Fan Base. #ThankYouRich

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Watch on Twitter

6:57 PM · Nov 22, 2021

 

who's calling Rich? click 'Watch on Twitter'

 

#VictoryMonday

 

Spot on.    I like Rich.   We all know that Baker is better than the bums we've had before.  And we know there's nobody we can plug in that's better (aside from Keenum because Baker's hurt).  But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take a flier on drafting a QB in a later round each year.  We've gotta keep him until somebody comes along that's better.  And continue to put pieces around him.  (Like a #1 receiver because our #1 fucked us over...and now we ain't got one)

[hish747]

On 11/22/2021 at 4:10 PM, nickers said:

Ive had enough coaches learning on the job...

I don't have a problem with coaches learning on the job. Every head coach is a rookie when they start. Learning on the job is par for course. What I don't like is if a head coach let's a QB walk all over him and make decisions that the head coach should be making. I see no other explanation for letting Baker play against Detroit.

We all know Baker shouldn't have started the game.

We all know Baker should've had an extra week to rest up.

We all know that Case would have done at least as well or better than a hobbled Baker.

Baker literally could not have done any worse and still won the game. There was no logical reason for the coach to have started Baker other than Baker wanted to start.

[Orion]

10 hours ago, Zombo said:

We won a tough, ugly game, and our quarterback gutted it out, because it's his job.

Yes.  If he's the starter, and the medical staff tells the coach that he can play, then the coach has to play him.  Otherwise, he would be benching the starter.

[hish747]

38 minutes ago, Orion said:

Yes.  If he's the starter, and the medical staff tells the coach that he can play, then the coach has to play him.

No, he doesn't. Why would the coach have to play a starter who is clearly hobbled? Just because the starter, who has more bravado than brains wants to? That's dereliction of his head coaching duties. The medical staff may have cleared him medically to play, but it was obvious he was not able to play at a level any better than our backup would have. Baker contributed nothing other than worsening our chances against the Ravens.

[hoorta]

17 minutes ago, hish747 said:

No, he doesn't. Why would the coach have to play a starter who is clearly hobbled? Just because the starter, who has more bravado than brains wants to? That's dereliction of his head coaching duties. The medical staff may have cleared him medically to play, but it was obvious he was not able to play at a level any better than our backup would have. Baker contributed nothing other than worsening our chances against the Ravens.

Let's use the famous Bill Belichick quote "I can only go by what I see".  So to be charitable, let's posit Baker looks just fine in practice this week.  Um, practice where anyone on the Browns defense would probably get fined for so much as touching him?  It's a tad different situation when the live bullets start flying in an actual NFL game.  Yeah Kev, you can overrule the medical staff if in your best judgement Baker isn't ready to play. 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

Yes.  If he's the starter, and the medical staff tells the coach that he can play, then the coach has to play him.  Otherwise, he would be benching the starter.

FWIW, NFL starters get benched on a regular basis for lousy play.  So he's medically cleared to play? Whoopee!!! I'll posit a 53 qbr (against the Lions) is third string backup territory.  Quote the Baker, nevermore... "I sucked"... Thank you Baker for telling us what we already knew.  

[lodilobo]

19 hours ago, Zombo said:

We won a tough, ugly game, and our quarterback gutted it out, because it's his job.

If you're not with him when he's suffering, don't be jumping back on his bandwagon when he catches fire like he did last year.

I'm so impressed with him gutting out that win, that I'd re-sign him this week and tell the the media and the fickle fans to go fuck themselves.

Z

Thanks...I needed that....

[Orion]

8 hours ago, hoorta said:

FWIW, NFL starters get benched on a regular basis for lousy play. 

Sure, but that is in fact what Stef would be saying by benching him....that he's playing lousy.  Which would have a ripple affect.  Baker would be pissed....and another QB controversy would arise with the fans, media, and probably among 'some' players.  Causality (as would be said in astrophysics)  

[SdBacker80]

9 minutes ago, Orion said:

Sure, but that is in fact what Stef would be saying by benching him....that he's playing lousy.  Which would have a ripple affect.  Baker would be pissed....and another QB controversy would arise with the fans, media, and probably among 'some' players.  Causality (as would be said in astrophysics)  

If we are touting Baker as a great leader/competitor he may be pissed but he would come back sharp and ready to go the next week and squash the controversy talk on the field. 

[hoorta]

7 hours ago, Orion said:

Sure, but that is in fact what Stef would be saying by benching him....that he's playing lousy.  Which would have a ripple affect.  Baker would be pissed....and another QB controversy would arise with the fans, media, and probably among 'some' players.  Causality (as would be said in astrophysics)  

Well there's already a controversy brewing among the fans... (Fan Sided even had an OP-ED to that effect)  I already caught grief in one of the other Facebook Browns Forums for even suggesting Mayfield is hurt, not playing well and should sit for a game or two.  

What bench our hero?  

[Orion]

3 hours ago, hoorta said:

even suggesting Mayfield is hurt, not playing well and should sit for a game or two. 

And that's how Stef would've had to frame it, had he replaced him with Keenum a couple of weeks ago.  

[gumby73]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:17 PM, hoorta said:

 Yeah Kev, you can overrule the medical staff if in your best judgement Baker isn't ready to play. 

Lions game-tape tussles.. 

a) Detroit finally scores a TD 2 minutes left in 3rd, to get score to 13-7 (Swift 58 yrd. TD)

b. ) (next Browns set) with just over a minute left in the 3rd.. Baker's bruised heel, (foot) gets stepped on.. (3 & out.... even i thought Bake could not protect himself.. *Stef chance 1?)

c.) Keenum warms up, Bakes in blue tent (who's doc cleared his return ? )

d. ) (browns next set) Baker is forced to take off out of a murky pocket, to gain 7 yards on a scramble his very next procession early 4th.. (now what?)

e.)  Baker than throws a tipped pick by Anzalone (credit his back petal vert to get to it)..  (*Stef's 2nd chance?) @tiamat63 good play to look at🧐. if Baker takes some off to get ball over Anz? It looks like a pick? Or Landry walks into a creaming? (nfl highlight tape 5:52) your appreciated DB thoughts?

f.)  Lions kick FG to make score 13-10....Stef looks to decide to protect Bake/ and closed out game by running the rock..(Batman needed no Robin)

me thinks, Stef had 2 solid chances to over rule his med staff... (injury to poor play)

after viewing all 22 Baker?  Baker's healing injuries late in games, leaves me nervous of seeing any 4th quarter heroics.. staying tuned

Go rag-doll the Rat-birds !

Happy Thanksgiving !   

 

[Flugel]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:21 PM, SdBacker80 said:

Quickly….

Year 4 his ability to decipher coverage and make quick decisions is not up to a standard of QB that will probably command upwards of 30-35M.   He holds onto the ball too long. He’s had problems with leaving clean pockets.

He’s a playaction QB but when placed outside of that fish bowl he struggles.  See our 5 wide empty backfield struggles. 

Hes struggled with throws outside of the hashes. 

Good one week bad the next…hallmark of being average.  The intangibles make him above average.  

Off the charts competitor…strong arm….2020 deep ball was stellar.

If your HC is a run-first oriented guy like he was in Minnesota - these are some reasons I think the empty backfield sets are a bad idea given where this team seems to be stuck on pause with right now:

1. When we've had a backup Guard playing RT while Wills has missed starts/shown no lateral mobility when he plays on the high ankle sprain.  Is there a better time to have a RB at least scraping/bumping 1 of the edges coming out of the backfield or just staying in and stepping up to pass pro on the side having the most trouble?  Another option is to remember that screen pass NE threw very effectively that the Browns could do if they had RB in the backfield.

2. The first argument to my thought in #1 is the no back formations are for the quick completions to the very reliable WRs that the QB trusts.  WONDERFUL!  That's awesome.  Who are those guys?  And how often are they available?  Anyone ever look at the who didn't practice and who was limited that did practice?  For all the OBJ nonsense, he missed training camp, practices as well as some starts at the last minute that surprised the coach with the game plan?  Football is a sport where you play like you practice/prepare.  Start reading those injury lists posted every week of who practices and who doesn't.  It's taken a toll on the chemistry, consistency and continuity of the passing game.  We all see Jarvis Landry hasn't been healthy enough to give us the same caliber of consistency he did over his 1st 3 years with this team.  Last week, he got injured again to the point he couldn't finish the game - the same week he said he wanted to be used more right?  Even DPJ's  has been banged up in recent weeks. And YES, we also use some TEs in that formation where 1 or 2 may have to help in pass pro or at least chip on the edge.  None of this has me thinking we have perimeter matchups to exploit in the passing game at all.  

3. Anyone remember the NYJ game last year when we lost our entire starting WR group to COVID on the Thurs/Fri before the game?  That is what our passing attack has felt like this year when we have the same sum of WRs available capable of winning their matchups.  And THAT was a team who won 11 regular season games and a playoff game.  Ironically, when national media guys got a hold of our playoff loss to the Chiefs - they didn't want to acknowledge Higgins' fumble at the goal line became a gift wrapped touchback for KC. And why was that?  It was WAY too inconvenient to their agenda of proving their thesis that Baker is not capable of getting the Browns to a Conference Championship Game.  They didn't want people remembering a pass that should have been a go-ahead TD in lieu of reminding us about Baker's only INT of the game at the end.  Keep in mind, Higgins wasn't a regular starter and the problem wasn't the pitch or the catch.  The problem was Higgins didn't secure the football at a time it needed to be secured the most.  Those are the little things that separate winning and losing as well as starting vrs filling in for starter.  

4. Last, but not least, why are we watching Baker week after week functioning at 60% of his performance capability when we have an experienced and reliable Stefanski product from the Vikes capable of performing better than that right now?   This situation is the main reason Keenum is here.  The more that injury continues to get aggravated the more our offense gets handcuffed IMO.

[GuNNerGatSKi]

The only intelligent commentary here has come from SDbacker and Zombo and yes I know how crazy that statement sounds.

So many of you are so quick to jump onto the bandwagon of hating Baker. You would rather tear down your own team to satisfy your urge to virtue signal and “fit in” than acknowledge the fact that this entire season, not just for the Browns, has been a shit show.

At the end of the day all that matters is our boys are in the thick of the AFC North title race.  This division is so tightly contested that any one of the four teams could run the table and take the division crown. This team has demonstrated some resilience, and now it’s football weather time in our neck of the woods.  Our team Is built from the ground up to make these sorts of late season, ground and pound close out runs. Health is the KEY!

[nickers]

53 minutes ago, GuNNerGatSKi said:

The only intelligent commentary here has come from SDbacker and Zombo and yes I know how crazy that statement sounds.

So many of you are so quick to jump onto the bandwagon of hating Baker. You would rather tear down your own team to satisfy your urge to virtue signal and “fit in” than acknowledge the fact that this entire season, not just for the Browns, has been a shit show.

At the end of the day all that matters is our boys are in the thick of the AFC North title race.  This division is so tightly contested that any one of the four teams could run the table and take the division crown. This team has demonstrated some resilience, and now it’s football weather time in our neck of the woods.  Our team Is built from the ground up to make these sorts of late season, ground and pound close out runs. Health is the KEY!

Like I said and will reiterate... It seems like many want Baker to fail because he does not measure up to being their idea of a QB.. I.E. Mahomes, P.Manning, Brady..... Well I got news for some of these folks... I got to witness Mike Phipps and Paul McDonald... Who were just God awful at the position.. both were big , strong QB's that possessed strong arms.. Neither could hit the side of a barn... Bill Nelsen was great.. But Pittsburgh's O line ruined his knees by the time he made it to our Roster.. He was a lot like Carson Palmer in some ways.. Not every QB can be Mahomes/Elite... I mean hell.. Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco won a Super Bowl... Even garbage like Doug Williams won a ring... So theres more than one road to Mecca...

[Unsympathetic]

And if you're willing to realize that Mayfield isn't Mahomes... then you can't pay him like Mahomes!  For Baker to succeed, he needs $$ available to be spent on talented players at other positions.  Look at the KC DB's.. outside of Mathieu that's the result of dumpster diving.

Flacco is actually a great example.. He got paid as though he himself was "the" reason for success even though everyone knew he was the beneficiary of a generational defense which they then couldn't keep/restock.. and paying Flacco torpedoed Ravens every season thereafter until his salary was off their books.  Is that what Baker fanbois sincerely want - because that's exactly what we're going to get if Baker's contract is a similar % of the cap.

Don't look or think about absolute dollars.. look at % of the cap.

The response to this is therefore discussion of the salary range for him.. because the real question isn't "do you want Baker or not" it's "Do you want Baker and a top FA IDL next to Garrett or just Baker and we'll let Garrett get triple-teamed".  It's a salary cap question, not something else which moves this into an emotional tirade.

[hoorta]

14 hours ago, GuNNerGatSKi said:

The only intelligent commentary here has come from SDbacker and Zombo and yes I know how crazy that statement sounds.

So many of you are so quick to jump onto the bandwagon of hating Baker. You would rather tear down your own team to satisfy your urge to virtue signal and “fit in” than acknowledge the fact that this entire season, not just for the Browns, has been a shit show.

At the end of the day all that matters is our boys are in the thick of the AFC North title race.  This division is so tightly contested that any one of the four teams could run the table and take the division crown. This team has demonstrated some resilience, and now it’s football weather time in our neck of the woods.  Our team Is built from the ground up to make these sorts of late season, ground and pound close out runs. Health is the KEY!

The problem Gunner is some Baker Fan Boys around here take any legit criticism of Baker as "hate".  That's me\us just objectively looking at how Beat Up Baker has played the last couple games.  Is a 53 qbr acceptable to you? Well,, is sure as hell isn't to me.. Not if you're thinking we're somehow going to magically be able to beat the Ravens Sunday night with that level of QB  play.  Did you watch any of the Thanksgiving Day games? Shit, old Dandy Andy Dalton put on a better performance than Baker has the last two games. Prescott and Carr were playing how Baker used to be able to play before he got crippled.  

So watch the Ratbirds stack eight in the box to shut down Chubb and Hunt- and dare Baker to beat them with his arm. Lotsa luck.  

[Flugel]

17 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

And if you're willing to realize that Mayfield isn't Mahomes... then you can't pay him like Mahomes!  For Baker to succeed, he needs $$ available to be spent on talented players at other positions.  Look at the KC DB's.. outside of Mathieu that's the result of dumpster diving.

Flacco is actually a great example.. He got paid as though he himself was "the" reason for success even though everyone knew he was the beneficiary of a generational defense which they then couldn't keep/restock.. and paying Flacco torpedoed Ravens every season thereafter until his salary was off their books.  Is that what Baker fanbois sincerely want - because that's exactly what we're going to get if Baker's contract is a similar % of the cap.

Don't look or think about absolute dollars.. look at % of the cap.

The response to this is therefore discussion of the salary range for him.. because the real question isn't "do you want Baker or not" it's "Do you want Baker and a top FA IDL next to Garrett or just Baker and we'll let Garrett get triple-teamed".  It's a salary cap question, not something else which moves this into an emotional tirade.

Kelce and T. Hill are elite.  Kelce was elite before Mahomes started; and shouldn't we also acknowledge Alex Smith QB'd KC to the playoffs? 

Remember the concerns in Minnesota about Kirk Cousins in terms of whether he was worth the contract commitment?  I saw that his ratings have improved quite a bit in the last 2 years.  One would have to believe the addition of Jefferson to the WR Corps in the 2020 draft was helpful right?  

Before last year, Diggs wanted out of that offense Stefanski was coordinating while many of their fans were convincing themselves they just had the wrong QB.  Diggs went to Buffalo. Stefanski came to Cleveland; and Cousins improved to the 4th highest passer rating in the NFC at 105 (only behind Rodgers, Brees and Wilson) with 35 TD 13 INT 4264 YDS 67.6 comp%.

Meanwhile Stefanski came here and coached us to 11-5 and slapped Pittsburgh upside the head with 48 points in a playoff W at Pittsburgh.  It's not just the players needed but it's also the system compatibility.  Last year, Baker actually had an ideal TD:INT ratio of 26 TD to 8 INT when the players around him were healthy up front and on the perimeter.  It was a nice change for him.  Our defense was also a lot better at getting turnovers; and putting our offense in good opportunities for points.  A lot of that collapsed this year and some of that has to do with the high volume of injuries fair or not.  Have we always had a winning % over .500 with the volume of injuries this team has tried to play through this year?   

To answer your question, Cap health relies heavily on how well you draft.  When we didn't draft well from 1999 until the year we drafted MG, we overpaid on a ton of FAs that didn't help us.  Now with the rookie salary caps, I think we can afford to offer Baker a keeper contract here.

[nickers]

What I think is hilarious... The term "Game Manager".. Which was created and given to none other than Phil Simms.. Who won two rings as Bill Parcells QB.... Which I think is amazing considering Parcells did not want his QB's throwing passes to the middle of the field.. Everything was pretty much on the outer perimeter with passes the giants ran.. I still think Simms was a pretty smart QB with a decent enough arm... Of course.. the game has changed.. But when you get right down to it Every QB  has to "Manage the Game" despite talent level...

[Unsympathetic]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

Cap health relies heavily on how well you draft

Flacco's years at the "peak" of his deal [>10% of cap] started in 2014 and ended in... 2018.  During his entire thanks-for-that-SB contract, they won 1 playoff game - his first year after the contract, 2014, vs PIT.  2014 lost the second and 2018 which you may call Lamar's first season.. lost the first. Zero playoff appearances in between.  Argue about the 10,11% area but the 14-15% years of 2016-2018 are inexcusable.  The part that can be tough to properly analyze/understand is that the contracts ramp up in % of cap because the contract value increases over time..

The drafting of the Ravens was, as always, really good -- and yet no playoff appearances that entire time because they kept not being able to resign anyone.  They even drafted long-time contributors in the 5th [Judon] and 6th [Chuck Clark] rounds.

[Dutch Oven]

At the end of the day, I'm fine with a healthy Baker being the QB for another four or five years if he signs a relatively affordable contract extension. There's no way I want to see the Browns sign him to a $40 mill a year contract - he's not that guy. But a Tannehill-type extension? Sure. 

I totally agree with SdBacker's critique of Baker's limitations, but if he signs a moderate contract extension, you won't have to make cuts all over the place to afford it. In a perfect world I'd like an upgrade over Baker, but that seems pretty unlikely. Get him healthy, get him signed to a mid-level starting QB extension, and fix the problems around him.

I just don't see it happening for the Browns this season. Too many injuries and too many issues with the team right now. The foundation, though, is here for success.

[Dutch Oven]

7 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Flacco's years at the "peak" of his deal [>10% of cap] started in 2014 and ended in... 2018.  During his entire thanks-for-that-SB contract, they won 1 playoff game - his first year after the contract, 2014, vs PIT.  2014 lost the second and 2018 which you may call Lamar's first season.. lost the first. Zero playoff appearances in between.  Argue about the 10,11% area but the 14-15% years of 2016-2018 are inexcusable.  The part that can be tough to properly analyze/understand is that the contracts ramp up in % of cap because the contract value increases over time..

The drafting of the Ravens was, as always, really good -- and yet no playoff appearances that entire time because they kept not being able to resign anyone.  They even drafted long-time contributors in the 5th [Judon] and 6th [Chuck Clark] rounds.

All of this is true, but Flacco was due a contract extension right after he helped win a Super Bowl.

I don't see how Baker has anything resembling that type of leverage. If I was the Browns, I'd aim to sign him to a Tannehill-type extension. 

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

All of this is true, but Flacco was due a contract extension right after he helped win a Super Bowl.

I don't see how Baker has anything resembling that type of leverage. If I was the Browns, I'd aim to sign him to a Tannehill-type extension. 

I would be okay with the $25-$30 mill range for Mayfield with incentives and escalators that are performance driven.. So to speak..

[Orion]

I just call 'em as I see 'em.  And there have been multiple games this season where the QB position had hurt us.  Now, we don't say that nearly as much with Baker as we have with any of the other QB's this century...but sometimes his accuracy is alarming.  Not as bad as Derick Anderson....but....