It's All About The QB! Always has been!

[Orion]

Show me a consistent winner.  And I'll show you a really good QB.

Jim Brown.  Perhaps the best RB ever.  One championship.  And he didn't score a single point in that championship game.  Frank Ryan threw 3 TD's to Gary Collins.

Otto Graham was our great QB...and he's got the Championships to prove it.  Bart Starr was a really good QB.  Bernie was pretty good.  He took us to multiple AFC Championship games.  John Elway, Peyton Manning, Friggin' Bradshaw, Friggin' Big Ben, (you can go ahead and add to the list)...they're all consistent winners.  Tom Brady, old as the hills, left NE and boom, Tampa Bay wins the super bowl.

We have Baker.

Now, we can bring up Archie Manning who never won squat...and he was a terrific QB.  Obviously it takes more than JUST a QB.  And it's terrific to have a really good running game...like we have.  But it's no substitute.  If you want to be a consistent winner and be able to challenge for and maybe even win a Super Bowl or two....you have to have a really good passing attack and that always comes back to having a really good QB.   We have Baker.

[calfoxwc]

7 minutes ago, Orion said:

Show me a consistent winner.  And I'll show you a really good QB.

Jim Brown.  Perhaps the best RB ever.  One championship.  And he didn't score a single point in that championship game.  Frank Ryan threw 3 TD's to Gary Collins.

Otto Graham was our great QB...and he's got the Championships to prove it.  Bart Starr was a really good QB.  Bernie was pretty good.  He took us to multiple AFC Championship games.  John Elway, Peyton Manning, Friggin' Bradshaw, Friggin' Big Ben, (you can go ahead and add to the list)...they're all consistent winners.  Tom Brady, old as the hills, left NE and boom, Tampa Bay wins the super bowl.

We have Baker.

Now, we can bring up Archie Manning who never won squat...and he was a terrific QB.  Obviously it takes more than JUST a QB.  And it's terrific to have a really good running game...like we have.  But it's no substitute.  If you want to be a consistent winner and be able to challenge for and maybe even win a Super Bowl or two....you have to have a really good passing attack and that always comes back to having a really good QB.   We have Baker.

Gary Collins was a FIRST ROUND PICK. 4th overall. 6'4", 215 lbs.

Frank Ryan was 6'3" - FIFTH ROUND PICK.

Tom Brady brought Gronk with him to the bucs.

With Bradshaw - Lynn Swann was a FIRST ROUND PICK. Hines Ward - round three.

[Dutch Oven]

53 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Gary Collins was a FIRST ROUND PICK. 4th overall. 6'4", 215 lbs.

Frank Ryan was 6'3" - FIFTH ROUND PICK.

Tom Brady brought Gronk with him to the bucs.

With Bradshaw - Lynn Swann was a FIRST ROUND PICK. Hines Ward - round three.

What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is cal rambling about?

[Orion]

14 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Gary Collins was a FIRST ROUND PICK. 4th overall. 6'4", 215 lbs.   ...and Paul Warfield was also a 1st round pick (11th), in that Championship year.  So maybe this year we pick a WR in round 1.

Frank Ryan was 6'3" - FIFTH ROUND PICK.  As I recall, he wasn't great or anything.  And that's why we only won the one championship with the best RB ever.  (But Ryan was tall)

Tom Brady brought Gronk with him to the bucs.  Yup.  And they also drafted the WR right?  

With Bradshaw - Lynn Swann was a FIRST ROUND PICK. Hines Ward - round three.  Yup.  Ya gotta commit to a passing attack.

I think we're heading into this next football calendar year with two receivers.  The two guys this bunch drafted....a 3rd and 6th round picks.  ( I'm figuring Landry's gone )  So we're going to have to add probably two veterans...and a 1st rounder (or 2nd the lowest).  

Still though, we'll only go as far as our QB will take us.

-----------

Waiting for ya to chime in hoorta.  And wonderin' if you're creamin' your jeans with the way James Webb is deploying itself (knock wood, still got stuff to do with the mirrors) in anticipation of seeing....well....we just don't know exactly do we....

[hoorta]

4 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is cal rambling about?

Cal is locked in with his "first round receivers" mantra which is a pile of crap...  Gronk was drafted in the second round.  And should you tell him Njoku was drafted in the FIRST round... crickets.    

[hoorta]

And just to expound... There are great QBs (Marino) who had great WRs who never got the big prize.  There are lousy QBs with great WRs... Ditto... Or great QBs with mediocre WRs who won it all? For sure.  Are there are mediocre QBs with mediocre WRs who won it all? Damn right they did.   

Think I've covered all the permutations.. But to keep on harping about WRs is locked into tunnel vision.  

[calfoxwc]

20 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Cal is locked in with his "first round receivers" mantra which is a pile of crap...  Gronk was drafted in the second round.  And should you tell him Njoku was drafted in the FIRST round... crickets.    

Just untrue, as usual. I did not say Gronk was a first round pick. But he is a TE, not a wr.

The WR/TE combination is important to the success of a qb. The Browns have the TE's. They do not have the wr group to support this offense.

They do NOT have a #1 wr, which puts the pressure on the TE's and Landry bigtime. Doug Dieken knows a lot more about football than you, and he openly has noted the times when the Browns had ZERO options open.

Watch the draft and FA. They will have a seriously updated WR group because it's true what I'm saying - the Browns, for one, have not paid much attention to the WR group because they had to fix the offense.

Tom Brady does have a star #1 wr.

Mike Evans. FIRST ROUND PICK. SEVENTH OVERALL. 6'5", 231 lbs. Ignoring the truth won't set you free.

Mike Evans is a WR.. First round. Really. Ask Tiam - or anybody. They will tell you.

[hoorta]

16 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Just untrue, as usual. I did not say Gronk was a first round pick. But he is a TE, not a wr.

The WR/TE combination is important to the success of a qb. The Browns have the TE's. They do not have the wr group to support this offense.

They do NOT have a #1 wr, which puts the pressure on the TE's and Landry bigtime. Doug Dieken knows a lot more about football than you, and he openly has noted the times when the Browns had ZERO options open.

Watch the draft and FA. They will have a seriously updated WR group because it's true what I'm saying - the Browns, for one, have not paid much attention to the WR group because they had to fix the offense.

Tom Brady does have a star #1 wr.

Mike Evans. FIRST ROUND PICK. SEVENTH OVERALL. 6'5", 231 lbs. Ignoring the truth won't set you free.

Excuses, excuses. You continue to ignore reality....   We had a super stud top of the heap #1 WR in OBJ ... So where is he now?   Um, because "can't see the field" Baker apparently couldn't find him when he was wide freaking open....  

Your mantra is just SO wrong, and on so many levels that have been totally debunked... But Believe whatever you want to....   

[TexasAg1969]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

Excuses, excuses. You continue to ignore reality....   We had a super stud top of the heap #1 WR in OBJ ... So where is he now?   Um, because "can't see the field" Baker apparently couldn't find him when he was wide freaking open....  

Your mantra is just SO wrong, and on so many levels that have been totally debunked... But Believe whatever you want to....   

We had another 1st Round (and first overal WR pick).........................................but we'd all like to forget Mr Headcase Corey (Dropsies) Coleman in 2016.

[Orion]

8 hours ago, hoorta said:

We had a super stud top of the heap #1 WR in OBJ ... So where is he now?   Um, because "can't see the field" Baker apparently couldn't find him when he was wide freaking open....

...yeah...that keeps gnawing at the back of my brain.  Sometimes they show replays from the behind the QB view...and sometimes I can see Njoku coming open right in the middle of the field (or a different receiver) and Baker decides to look elsewhere for a bigger play...and by the time he comes back to Njoku, he's covered.   But to be fair, sometimes there's nobody open on those replays.   

[calfoxwc]

50 minutes ago, Orion said:

...yeah...that keeps gnawing at the back of my brain.  Sometimes they show replays from the behind the QB view...and sometimes I can see Njoku coming open right in the middle of the field (or a different receiver) and Baker decides to look elsewhere for a bigger play...and by the time he comes back to Njoku, he's covered.   But to be fair, sometimes there's nobody open on those replays.   

in a clutch situation - I'd hope to throw to a target that I could depend on to catch the ball. If a receiver is only open for a fleeting moment - Baker is probably being baited to throw an int.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/david-njoku/32004e4a-4f35-5964-1f03-4dc0b4e0b757

Weaknesses

• Inexperienced at the position and still a work in progress
• Needs to add to his play strength to handle in-line blocking as a pro
• Don't skip leg days, bro
• Struggled badly to stay in front of Pitt powerhouse Ejuan Price
• Hands too high and wide at point of attack
• Inconsistent hands over two years at Miami
• Focus drops were a problem
• Had eight drops over last two seasons for drop rate over 11 percent
• Speed allows him to uncover on downfield routes and hasn't had to learn nuances of setting up defenders with route work
• Needs to get head around and find ball quicker when working over top of linebacker

[Gorka]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

in a clutch situation - I'd hope to throw to a target that I could depend on to catch the ball. If a receiver is only open for a fleeting moment - Baker is probably being baited to throw an int.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/david-njoku/32004e4a-4f35-5964-1f03-4dc0b4e0b757

Weaknesses

• Inexperienced at the position and still a work in progress
• Needs to add to his play strength to handle in-line blocking as a pro
• Don't skip leg days, bro
• Struggled badly to stay in front of Pitt powerhouse Ejuan Price
• Hands too high and wide at point of attack
• Inconsistent hands over two years at Miami
• Focus drops were a problem
• Had eight drops over last two seasons for drop rate over 11 percent
• Speed allows him to uncover on downfield routes and hasn't had to learn nuances of setting up defenders with route work
• Needs to get head around and find ball quicker when working over top of linebacker

Cal has a point here when you consider GronK's scouting report:

He's just the opposite.

2010 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Rob Gronkowski

 

Strengths:

• Long frame with good strength
• Good route runner
• Fluid in and out of his breaks
• Competitive when ball is in air
• Physical runner
• Underrated blocker
• Does a good job of using his hands and extending
• Impressive straight-line speed
• Red zone threat
• Consistent hands and plucks the ball
• Extremely high upside as a run blocker

 

 

[Gorka]

11 hours ago, hoorta said:

Excuses, excuses. You continue to ignore reality....   We had a super stud top of the heap #1 WR in OBJ ... So where is he now?   Um, because "can't see the field" Baker apparently couldn't find him when he was wide freaking open....  

Your mantra is just SO wrong, and on so many levels that have been totally debunked... But Believe whatever you want to....   

His dad even proved that.

[calfoxwc]

11 hours ago, hoorta said:

Excuses, excuses. You continue to ignore reality....   We had a super stud top of the heap #1 WR in OBJ ... So where is he now?   Um, because "can't see the field" Baker apparently couldn't find him when he was wide freaking open....  

Your mantra is just SO wrong, and on so many levels that have been totally debunked... But Believe whatever you want to....   

more cherry pickie? does it NEVER end?  OBJ? the guy who was "injured" all the entire time with the Browns? who was perfectly healthy when he went to the rams?

Read up on him.

***********************************

Is Odell Beckham Jr. Overrated? (3 Reasons Why He Is)

https://www.thecoldwire.com › is-odell-beckham-jr-overrated

OBJ is only 28 years old. He has played seven seasons, 5 with the New York Giants and 2 with the Browns. Hamstring injuries hampered him early in his rookie year (2014). He had a left ankle sprain and then a fracture in 2017. OBJ suffered a quad bruise that ended up being a hematoma in 2018. He had core muscle surgery after the 2019 season.

Odell Beckham Jr. Is Being Anonymously Ripped From Inside ...

https://www.sportscasting.com › odell-beckham-jr-being-anonymously-ripped-inside-cleveland-browns-locker-room-he-does-nothing

When asked about his perspective on the trade before the 2021 season began, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman had two words that will tell you everything you need to know about how disappointing OBJ has been for Cleveland. "I'm happy," he said, according to Cleveland.com. Stats courtesy of ESPN and Pro Football Reference.

 

Odell Beckham Jr. and Matthew Stafford Already Having ...

https://www.thebiglead.com › posts › odell-beckham-jr-and-matthew-stafford-already-having-chemistry-issues-01fmmeydaqg5

Odell Beckham Jr. made his Los Angeles Rams debut on Monday Night Football and it was a big ol' flop. With hardly any time to practice with quarterback Matthew Stafford, Beckham was targeted just ...

 

 

[Pat Mahomo]

We have Pat Mahomes

Cleveland picked 1/1 in that draft and took Garrett....really good player....DE's don't win championships.  

Cleveland had pick 12 in that same draft...KC moved up from 27 all the way to 10.  Cleveland traded out of 12.

 

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Pat Mahomo said:

We have Pat Mahomes

Cleveland picked 1/1 in that draft and took Garrett....really good player....DE's don't win championships.  

Cleveland had pick 12 in that same draft...KC moved up from 27 all the way to 10.  Cleveland traded out of 12.

 

Hey Pat you're obviously poorly informed about about Browns draft screw ups. We don't need Ladanian Tomlinson or Ben Roethlisberger either. That's just scratching the surface... Aaron Rodgers? You get the drift. 

[Browns149]

3 hours ago, hoorta said:

Hey Pat you're obviously poorly informed about about Browns draft screw ups. We don't need Ladanian Tomlinson or Ben Roethlisberger either. That's just scratching the surface... Aaron Rodgers? You get the drift. 

Baker instead of Josh Allen in 2018

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, Browns149 said:

Baker instead of Josh Allen in 2018

The ONLY big Josh Allen fan I remember on this board (pre-draft) was Cal; and many of us (including me) busted his chops about it.  There were way more Josh Rosen fans in here that have remained pretty church mouse quiet about that today.  I've mentioned more than once or twice that I waivered back and forth between Sam Uh-Oh (Darnold) and Baker Mayfield as my 1A and 1B. Even though 2021 is the most recent impression (it was the worst year of Baker's career so it's okay to think there's more to his dropoff than just waking up a bad/mediocre QB just 1 year after he was a good QB that helped us win a playoff game as recently as January of 2021).  The TD Pass to INT ratio was 26 TD Passes to 8 INT.  Not elite but better than some want to give him credit for. 

Right now I'm hearing he's just Andy Dalton with 1 major exception.  He was our starting QB the day Cleveland BEAT Pittsburgh 48-37 in the 1st round of the playoffs.  Dalton made multiple Pro Bowls and led Cincy to the playoffs repeatedly but never won a playoff game. He just didn't have the 1st round arm strength Baker has so he was drafted in round 2.  I'm hoping Baker becomes more comparable to Drew Brees when it all plays out.  After Brees finished his 3rd year SD needed to use their next 1st overall pick on a QB (Eli Manning who they swapped with the NYG for Philip Rivers when Manning reminded them he won't play there).  Things didn't go well for Brees until Rivers held out the entire length of training camp in Brees' 4th year.  Love took time there and I think it's doing the same here; especially with how many different playbooks/OCs Baker had to learn and de-program on top of what we saw when he played injured this year.   IMO, there has been some promise along the way in 2018 (fresh off 0-16 in 2017) and in 2020.  I'm just hoping that's more along the lines of who he is than 2019 and 2021.  I'll have to see in 2022.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Flugel
2 typos

[TexasAg1969]

20 minutes ago, Flugel said:

The ONLY big Josh Allen fan I remember on this board (pre-draft) was Cal; and many of us (including me) busted his chops about it.  There were way more Josh Rosen fans in here that have remained pretty church mouse quiet about that today.  I've mentioned more than once or twice that I waivered back and forth between Sam Uh-Oh (Darnold) and Baker Mayfield as my 1A and 1B.

Even the blind pig finds an acorn once in a blue moon🥓🍀. I wanted either Rosen or Darnold, but certainly not JFF II or Big Inaccurate Wyoming Arm. So sue me.😁

[Orion]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

The ONLY big Josh Allen fan I remember on this board (pre-draft) was Cal;

And I said, like I always say about a QB, "I want the biggest, tallest drink of water with a strong arm."   The Derick Anderson type.  (and if he turns out to be an inaccurate bum with no touch, then ya move on, but you went down swingin')

...last night the Patriots got whopped by the Bills.  During the season the Pats beat them with 4 passes and 40-something runs.  But there was no hurricane winds blowing last night.   40 runs last night by Nick Chubb and the Browns was NOT gonna win that game.  

If you wanna stay with a good passing team who is 'on their game' against you...then you better be able to pass the ball well yourself.  We need to get to that point.  I love our running game, Chubb is great, Hunt, D'E...imagine how much more effective they'd be with an honest to God passing attack for the D to worry about..... 

[Flugel]

46 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Even the blind pig finds an acorn once in a blue moon🥓🍀. I wanted either Rosen or Darnold, but certainly not JFF II or Big Inaccurate Wyoming Arm. So sue me.😁

Cal does a lot of research that makes him comfortable with his football opinions.  I like that he doesn't take inventory of popular opinion before he decides to swim against the current on a guy like Josh Allen.

[Flugel]

1 minute ago, Orion said:

And I said, like I always say about a QB, "I want the biggest, tallest drink of water with a strong arm."   The Derick Anderson type.  (and if he turns out to be an inaccurate bum with no touch, then ya move on, but you went down swingin')

...last night the Patriots got whopped by the Bills.  During the season the Pats beat them with 4 passes and 40-something runs.  But there was no hurricane winds blowing last night.   40 runs last night by Nick Chubb and the Browns was NOT gonna win that game.  

If you wanna stay with a good passing team who is 'on their game' against you...then you better be able to pass the ball well yourself.  We need to get to that point.  I love our running game, Chubb is great, Hunt, D'E...imagine how much more effective they'd be with an honest to God passing attack for the D to worry about..... 

Well put!  The nice thing about the draft today if you don't draft the right guy in round 1 - it doesn't kill a team's cap health nearly as badly as it did before they implemented the rookie salary cap.

None of us want to see the 2021 passing game again.

 

 

[tiamat63]

36 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Cal does a lot of research that makes him comfortable with his football opinions.  

I'm going to stop you right there on that one - hard no.

[gumby73]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

The ONLY big Josh Allen fan I remember on this board (pre-draft) was Cal; and many of us (including me) busted his chops about it. Guilty ! 😇

There were way more Josh Rosen fans in here that have remained pretty church mouse quiet about that today. Frozen AFCN playoff seasons ran me away from Rosen.. concussions

I've mentioned more than once or twice that I waivered back and forth between Sam Uh-Oh (Darnold) and Baker Mayfield as my 1A and 1B. Even though 2021 is the most recent 

I remember your posting as this exactly ^ ^

I also was 1a/1b on both.. Mayfield became my 1st round choice during his Senior Bowl. Bake's Combine presser just cemented him as my choice.

Darnold saw ghosts...predraft.. I watched his same ghost, that refused to protect a football when in pocket panic mode... Guess what I missed? Baker has become just as bad ! 😕

My largest Mayfield fail to see? He's cocky .. 

“I already know what exactly I need to work on and improve going forward,” Mayfield said, via the Akron Beacon Journal. “That is the exciting thing about it, it is always a continual process of getting better and improving.”

Mayfield added, however, that he will not hire a private quarterback tutor, as some passers do during the offseason.(Josh Allen has not been the same QB since working with Palmer's brother)

“I do not need somebody to teach me how to do a three-step drop,” Mayfield said. “I can look at film and be critical of myself. Throughout this process, I have had people help me out along the way and try and take things from different people. Any time I am around somebody, I ask questions. Do not act like I have it all figured out. There is always room to improve and take things from there and there, but I would not say that I will go on the beach and swim through the ocean and try and learn how to play quarterback by doing that.”

I'm I taking this, in the right way? https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/12/27/baker-mayfield-says-hell-be-working-hard-this-offseason-but-not-with-a-qb-tutor/

What's his plan this off-season coming off surgery?

To date... Alex Van Pelt is still listed as a OC.... imho...he's Baker's QB coach if he likes it or not

[SdBacker80]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

The ONLY big Josh Allen fan I remember on this board (pre-draft) was Cal; and many of us (including me) busted his chops about it.  There were way more Josh Rosen fans in here that have remained pretty church mouse quiet about that today.  I've mentioned more than once or twice that I waivered back and forth between Sam Uh-Oh (Darnold) and Baker Mayfield as my 1A and 1B. Even though 2021 is the most recent impression (it was the worst year of Baker's career so it's okay to think there's more to his dropoff than just waking up a bad/mediocre QB just 1 year after he was a good QB that helped us win a playoff game as recently as January of 2021).  The TD Pass to INT ratio was 26 TD Passes to 8 INT.  Not elite but better than some want to give him credit for. 

Right now I'm hearing he's just Andy Dalton with 1 major exception.  He was our starting QB the day Cleveland BEAT Pittsburgh 48-37 in the 1st round of the playoffs.  Dalton made multiple Pro Bowls and led Cincy to the playoffs repeatedly but never won a playoff game. He just didn't have the 1st round arm strength Baker has so he was drafted in round 2.  I'm hoping Baker becomes more comparable to Drew Brees when it all plays out.  After Brees finished his 3rd year SD needed to use their next 1st overall pick on a QB (Eli Manning who they swapped with the NYG for Philip Rivers when Manning reminded them he won't play there).  Things didn't go well for Brees until Rivers held out the entire length of training camp in Brees' 4th year.  Love took time there and I think it's doing the same here; especially with how many different playbooks/OCs Baker had to learn and de-program on top of what we saw when he played injured this year.   IMO, there has been some promise along the way in 2018 (fresh off 0-16 in 2017) and in 2020.  I'm just hoping that's more along the lines of who he is than 2019 and 2021.  I'll have to see in 2022.

The “Experts” weren’t that far off with the 2018 draft.

The consensus:

Mayfied had the highest floor. 

Darnold and Allen were Boom or Bust picks.  Allen improved his accuracy (concern at Wyoming) where Darnold didn’t improve on protecting the ball (concern at USC) 

Rosen many were wrong but there were some red flags with Work Ethic at UCLA.

Jackson is he still anywhere close to being a passer in the league??? he came into the perfect scenario with Baltimore and credit to them for utilizing the athletic skill set he possesses and they have had a stroke of luck with his health. 

Knowing what we knew in 2018…I’m sorry I would have been upset with picking Allen and I can’t fault the front office at that time for not picking Allen. 

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I'm going to stop you right there on that one - hard no.

I audibly laughed at this... 😂

[Dutch Oven]

5 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

The “Experts” weren’t that far off with the 2018 draft.

The consensus:

Mayfied had the highest floor. 

Darnold and Allen were Boom or Bust picks.  Allen improved his accuracy (concern at Wyoming) where Darnold didn’t improve on protecting the ball (concern at USC) 

Rosen many were wrong but there were some red flags with Work Ethic at UCLA.

Jackson is he still anywhere close to being a passer in the league??? he came into the perfect scenario with Baltimore and credit to them for utilizing the athletic skill set he possesses and they have had a stroke of luck with his health. 

Knowing what we knew in 2018…I’m sorry I would have been upset with picking Allen and I can’t fault the front office at that time for not picking Allen. 

It was an interesting offseason on here, for sure, with so many QBs that were projected as first rounders for us to peruse, as fans of a team that obviously was taking one of them.

Mayfield to me was the safe but underwhelming "highest floor/lowest ceiling" guy, which kind of has played out.

I liked Darnold, but really, really thought he should have stayed and played his senior season at USC. 

I loved watching Rosen throw the ball, loved the way he attacked down the field, but the longer the draft process went, the more you started wondering about how much he really even liked playing football. 

I don't honestly remember even giving Lamar Jackson a thought as a possibility for the Browns, and as good as he has been in the NFL as a starting QB (the kid just wins, period), I think he has peaked and is on the downslide, as QBs who can't consistently pass from the pocket almost always do. 

Josh Allen was the big AFC North-type QB who played mediocre competition and couldn't hit the side of a barn. Kudos for him becoming a top level starting QB, because he's definitely the exception to the rule. 

To be honest, by the time the draft rolled around, none of these guys made me think "Man, if we get THIS guy, we will rock!". I think I had talked myself out of loving any of them by late April, 2018. 

But it was a pretty fun offseason on this board, for sure!

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I'm going to stop you right there on that one - hard no.

No, Flugels is right - I read a ton about a lot of players a lot of folks don't consider. You had no comment on my stupid mock draft - fine - but if you didn't read it - you have to know that your "Xs" and "Os" are not the only factor in judging talent. "Rosen is the best pure pocket passer" you Allen bashers said.

lol.

It is tough - a lot of teams with experts make grievous flagrant mistakes. I have fun trying. Generally I read up on high school success, and college. but ***I*** take into consideration who they are character wise if I can, and who they played with in college. My guesses are my guesses. I have fun with it.

btw, I did a LOT of reading about all the qb's in that draft - so......."Yes, Flugels is right again"

[Kvoethe]

Baker is basically a Sober Johnny Manziel

I called him Manziel 2.0 back during the draft...

They are both 2 short

[Orion]

23 hours ago, gumby73 said:

“I already know what exactly I need to work on and improve going forward,” Mayfield said, via the Akron Beacon Journal.

Ahh, all set.  I don't need any instruction.  I got it all in my head.  I got this.

Well, I as a Browns fan feel better.