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6 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

Calm down. There are instances where these things get stopped early on and they don't make the news. As I said, it's rare, but you have a puncher's chance. 

Are you equating irresponsible gun ownership with open carry? I'd love to hear your reasoning. 

So can you clarify which of the above you'd consider responsible gun ownership, if any?

I think the bigger joke is people using a statistical rarity to take away constitutional rights from law abiding citizens. 

Do you really think we lost control of Afghanistan because of the terrain? The missiles, artillery, and drones that we're supplying them with are making headlines, but make no mistake, the majority of Russians being killed are being killed from small arms fire. 

Yes, let the hate flow through you.

Please don't tell me to calm down. I'm frustrated, disappointed, etc... But calm. 

That's great that we've had se instances where guns helped protect people against... guns. Definitely more than makes up for all of our country's deaths from... guns. 

 

Why does anyone need to open carry? What is the mental state of someone deciding they not only need to carry a gun around but everyone needs to know they are? I'm seriously asking here. I imagine whatever answer you give will be about as positive of one as I could get. 

 

Responsible? At this point I'm fine with something around the house for protection. Or guns for sport / hunting. Even then what I would think is reasonable for protection and what others think would be very different. 

 

What number of school shootings is an acceptable number for you? What number of overall gun deaths in our country is acceptable? You know where this is really a statistical rarity? Any other developed countries. These problems are unique to us and, not surprisingly, our gun culture are the rules around it are unique to us. 

 

I'm telling you why militia / military local forces in Afghanistan aren't comparable to American people with guns trying to stop the American government from turning on them. And again, the fact that scenario is even being brought up in the wake up a mass shooting (multiple) as a defense to keep everything as it is is crazy to me. Our country, unfortunately, spends more on defense than what, the next ten countries combined? Average citizens taking up arms is going to be a minor annoyance. Sure, you'll get some kills on the fantasy evil American government, but you're not stopping shit. 

 

Hate? Man I'm not the one that frequents 4chan. Not exactly the best track record there... At best they do some funny trolling at worst it's just a concentrated nest of racist incels hopping on whatever they think will piss the normies off the most.

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6 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

Why weren't there any mass killings with fully automatic weapons when they were legal to buy before 1986?

Which leads to other questions. How many were actually bought before 1986? Were they highly prevalent and easy to find anywhere back then? Were they strongly marketed? And specifically why did you choose 1986 when the ban took place from 1994 to 2004?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle

"In the 1990s, sales of AR-15 style rifles increased dramatically, partly as a result of the introduction of the flat top upper receiver (M4 variant) which allowed scopes and sighting devices to be easily mounted as well as new features such as free floating hand guards that increased accuracy.[69] While only a handful of companies were manufacturing these rifles in 1994, by the 21st century the number of AR-15 style rifles had more than doubled.[71] From 2000 to 2015, the number of manufacturers of AR-15 style variants and knock-offs increased from 29 to about 500.[72] AR-15 style rifles are now available in a wide range of configurations and calibers from a large number of manufacturers. "

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5 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Which leads to other questions. How many were actually bought before 1986? Were they highly prevalent and easy to find anywhere back then? Were they strongly marketed? And specifically why did you choose 1986 when the ban took place from 1994 to 2004?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle

"In the 1990s, sales of AR-15 style rifles increased dramatically, partly as a result of the introduction of the flat top upper receiver (M4 variant) which allowed scopes and sighting devices to be easily mounted as well as new features such as free floating hand guards that increased accuracy.[69] While only a handful of companies were manufacturing these rifles in 1994, by the 21st century the number of AR-15 style rifles had more than doubled.[71] From 2000 to 2015, the number of manufacturers of AR-15 style variants and knock-offs increased from 29 to about 500.[72] AR-15 style rifles are now available in a wide range of configurations and calibers from a large number of manufacturers. "

He's not talking about the copy cat semi automatic Ar-15's.

At a federal level they were never strictly speaking banned. They have required registration and a tax stamp from 1936 onward, and then in 1986 the registration was closed.

Thus new automatic weapons for sale to non-military, non-law enforcement were banned as of 1986, but weapons made and registered before 1986 can still be transferred. The process however will take almost a year and the limited supply means you will be paying in the hundreds of thousands if you can find one. And if your state has not banned them. And if you can pass the background check.

tldr; As of 1986, a de facto ban exists on civilian ownership of automatic weapons.

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For the guys who love to repeat the gun violence statistics in Australia or England I'd like to remind them that there are very few riots/protests in red China.

But kidding aside just to remind you how disingenuous the entire gun debate is, tell me which of the school shootings in the last year would have been prevented bye "Common Sense" gun laws.

(and for those who exclaim so then what? We just do nothing? I repeat doing nothing and doing something that has no effect on the situation are the same.)

WSS

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6 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

The overthrowing a tyrannical government argument isn't something I'm personally on board with. I'm just demonstrating why your dismissal of it is wrong. 

Yeah, I agree with everything here except the last sentence - if there are 4 guns per person, how much ammo do you think is out there? Anyway, anyone clamoring to overthrow the government with their guns is deluded. The point the guy made about the limits of the military on subjugating an entire nation is the main point I'm trying to get across. 

My issue on this topic is that people think that personal defense should be left to the government. The cops' response time to the Texas shooting is reason enough to not go that direction. Did you know that Black women are the fastest growing group of gun owners in the last 3 years? Sorry man, the reality is that many people live in shitty, unsafe neighborhoods, and a lot of them also have systemic distrust of the authorities. I started carrying because some piece of shit held up a dad who was walking with his 4 year old kid 3 houses down from mine.

I actually have a thought based on these last two shooters. It's some slippery slope shit, and I don't feel good about even suggesting it, but it would have possibly prevented these particular shootings. Felons can't own guns. Both of these shooters turned 18 and didn't have a felony history to prevent them from legally obtaining them. However, both of them did have a history of torturing/dismembering animals. There is a big correlation between conduct disorder, torturing animals and it proceeding to antisocial personality disorder. These people are psychopaths, and there is no drug or mental health counseling that exists to cure it. You could potentially use this as a red flag criteria. 

Here is the DSM 5 for conduct disorder

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/conduct-disorder-dsm--5-312.81-(f91.1)%2c-312.82-(f91.2)%2c-and-312.89-(f91.9)

I think the criteria I'd consider would be use of a weapon to harm others, physical cruelty to animals, arson, sexual assault, but it feels fucked up to deprive someone of their constitutional rights because of something they did as a child. 

And I disagree

 

I'll concede gun owners will be a mild irritation to the spooky evil future government, and nothing more. Definitely not a hypothetical to validate the amount of gun deaths we have in our country now. 

 

You can barely bring yourself to concede that we should maybe restrict gun ownership for those that have showed a mental ability to harm others. This is why I don't expect anything to actually happen to improve the issue. We get tiny little actions, if at all. Or we hear about how there isn't enough church attendance or the classic, video games are the issue. It's pathetic. 

 

 

My ask is why we have this gun violence issue and other developed countries don't? Do they not have video games? Do they not have falling church attendance? Do they not have large cities? Our country's gun culture is a broken one. A culture that immediately points the finger at everything else following a mass shooting instead of itself. A culture that puts a statistically acceptable value to the life of a child gun downed in their classroom because freedom or something.

There are plenty of actionable steps we could take to improve the issue. But you either just get "well that won't stop everything so what's the point" or standard slippery slope fallacy nonsense. 

And we can do this whole song and dance the next time there is a mass shooting. And the next time. And the next time. And the next time. And...

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10 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

And I disagree

 

I'll concede gun owners will be a mild irritation to the spooky evil future government, and nothing more. Definitely not a hypothetical to validate the amount of gun deaths we have in our country now. 

 

You can barely bring yourself to concede that we should maybe restrict gun ownership for those that have showed a mental ability to harm others. This is why I don't expect anything to actually happen to improve the issue. We get tiny little actions, if at all. Or we hear about how there isn't enough church attendance or the classic, video games are the issue. It's pathetic. 

 

 

My ask is why we have this gun violence issue and other developed countries don't? Do they not have video games? Do they not have falling church attendance? Do they not have large cities? Our country's gun culture is a broken one. A culture that immediately points the finger at everything else following a mass shooting instead of itself. A culture that puts a statistically acceptable value to the life of a child gun downed in their classroom because freedom or something.

There are plenty of actionable steps we could take to improve the issue. But you either just get "well that won't stop everything so what's the point" or standard slippery slope fallacy nonsense. 

And we can do this whole song and dance the next time there is a mass shooting. And the next time. And the next time. And the next time. And...

Correct, and the next time and the next time. Until we take the Draconian measures those countries you are envious of have taken. It really is as simple as that and it really will take a long time and it really will take an extensive search add confiscation program. I'm not being facetious you just have to commit to something if you are serious about it. Like smoking. How many guys still smoke cigarettes but insist they have cut down?

WSS

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14 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Why does anyone need to open carry? What is the mental state of someone deciding they not only need to carry a gun around but everyone needs to know they are? I'm seriously asking here. I imagine whatever answer you give will be about as positive of one as I could get. 

Responsible? At this point I'm fine with something around the house for protection. Or guns for sport / hunting. Even then what I would think is reasonable for protection and what others think would be very different. 

Drawing the line between conceal-carry and open carry is demonstrating that you don't really have an understanding of how crime happens. The vast majority of it is a crime of opportunity. Another gun crime that happened on my block is an attempted hijacking of some old lady's car - probably the same kid who held up the dad. They go after targets they think are easy. If you have a gun in a holster, you might find that people are going to think a little longer about the consequences before they fuck with you. What is reasonable for protection is dependent completely on where you live. If you live in a place like Fairlawn or Hudson, you really aren't going to worry about this shit. Walking my neighborhood in Shaker, I apparently have to worry about some jackass 14 year old holding people up. No amount of laws or gun buybacks is going to convince me that the state has removed the firearm from this kid's hand. 

14 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

What number of school shootings is an acceptable number for you? What number of overall gun deaths in our country is acceptable? You know where this is really a statistical rarity? Any other developed countries. These problems are unique to us and, not surprisingly, our gun culture are the rules around it are unique to us. 

From the 2015 data I posted last month, the 8.9*10^-5 lifetime odds of dying due to a mass shooting is an acceptable number to me. I'm sure the number has increased since 2015, but I'm guessing it's still going to be at the same order of magnitude as dying from a foreign-born terrorist. I would rather not chase trying to get that number down by putting the focus on stopping mass shootings. If you want to talk about all-cause gun deaths, then I'll be happy to have that conversation. 

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m telling you why militia / military local forces in Afghanistan aren't comparable to American people with guns trying to stop the American government from turning on them. And again, the fact that scenario is even being brought up in the wake up a mass shooting (multiple) as a defense to keep everything as it is is crazy to me. Our country, unfortunately, spends more on defense than what, the next ten countries combined? Average citizens taking up arms is going to be a minor annoyance. Sure, you'll get some kills on the fantasy evil American government, but you're not stopping shit. 

Once again, you miss the point completely. You're equating the ability to kill a person or vaporize a city block with the ability to control a population. 1 million Iraqis and 1 million Afghanis were killed by the US military during the occupation. The US government still didn't win and are hated in those regions for what they did.

13 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

You can barely bring yourself to concede that we should maybe restrict gun ownership for those that have showed a mental ability to harm others. This is why I don't expect anything to actually happen to improve the issue. We get tiny little actions, if at all. Or we hear about how there isn't enough church attendance or the classic, video games are the issue. It's pathetic. 

Taking someone's constitutional rights away for the rest of their lives because of something they did as a child is not a "tiny little action."  

Quote

Our country's gun culture is a broken one. A culture that immediately points the finger at everything else following a mass shooting instead of itself. A culture that puts a statistically acceptable value to the life of a child gun downed in their classroom because freedom or something.

Sorry dude, the country had a PTSD response to 9/11 and went full retard. Freedoms came off the books, they didn't come back, and continued to be abused by both parties of government. The country is worse off now than it was on September 10, 2001. The country is on the cusp of having a similar response, and I am wholly against a knee jerk reaction because you want to lower the 10^-5 odds that you'll die from a mass shooting.

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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

20 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Correct, and the next time and the next time. Until we take the Draconian measures those countries you are envious of have taken. It really is as simple as that and it really will take a long time and it really will take an extensive search add confiscation program. I'm not being facetious you just have to commit to something if you are serious about it. Like smoking. How many guys still smoke cigarettes but insist they have cut down?

WSS

And as much as I hate to admit it (because I love going to the range 5-6 times a year with multiple weapons and I carry concealed), Australia's draconian gun laws have worked and is the real model that would have to be implemented here. Then we go back to that part of the 2nd amendment that no one likes to admit is there, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State". Certainly not the gun manufacturers or the gun nuts like me. But it is there. Do we have the courage as a nation to actually take the Australian alternative which actually has worked well?

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8 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

I'm sure they could control ammunition etc pretty quickly. 

You mean like fentanyl?

If you think for one second outlawing firearms in this country wouldn’t create a black market for guns across the border….you’re fucking delusional.

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1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

And as much as I hate to admit it (because I love going to the range 5-6 times a year with multiple weapons and I carry concealed), Australia's draconian gun laws have worked and is the real model that would have to be implemented here. Then we go back to that part of the 2nd amendment that no one likes to admit is there, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State". Certainly not the gun manufacturers or the gun nuts like me. But it is there. Do we have the courage as a nation to actually take the Australian alternative which actually has worked well?

A well regulated militia is completely vague and meaningless term. I have absolutely no doubt a militia of civilians could easily be well-regulated.*

Whether or not someone is a "gun nut" it comes down to this: how much have your freedom are you willing to give up? As Michael Moore and others have said it's time to repeal the Second Amendment. If you are serious. If you're not and it's just a campaign issue over meaningless restrictions just say so.

WSS

* and the concept that we are a free state has long since left the barn.

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My ask is why we have this gun violence issue and other developed countries don't? Do they not have video games? Do they not have falling church attendance? Do they not have large cities?

I reject those explanations just as you do. I think your first question is a valid one, but I think it is very difficult in this political climate to have the conversation to fix it. But take a look at the total number of gun deaths in that link I posted above. You're on the same order of magnitude as getting in a car accident, which is way too high, in my opinion. 

1 - The sheer amount of guns our country has is not comparable to anywhere else in the West. It creates the obvious logistics problem if trying to track/license/disarm

2 - Culturally, society is getting sicker. There were much more dangerous guns available pre-1986, but the homicide rates are going up. More money into mental health initiatives is great, but does nothing to address the root cause of why people can get to the point where they are willing to kill another human. 

3 - Here is the latest data from the CDC on racial disparities on gun violence. Woody, you might be shocked to learn that I actually voted for funding the CDC to study gun violence at the Ohio State Medical Association and at the American Medical Association.

image.png.ae75887fe10c76bc2f7f7f4cd20936b0.png

As you can see, the Black community rates are on par with places like Honduras, whereas White/Asian communities have gun homicide rates comparable to western European nations. For suicides, it's the White and Native populations bringing the average up, whereas Black/Hispanic/Asian communities are comparable to European nations. Unfortunately, due to the political climate today, I'm not touching this one with a forty-foot pole at our medical meetings. 

There are systemic inequities that do explain some of this - SES, crack/opioid epidemic, distrust in authorities. One thing that I don't think gets talked about enough in this context is the culture of toxic masculinity. It's the common denominator between urban black and rural white culture, where homicides and suicides are most prevalent. Men are raised to be stoic, and it's unacceptable to show any weakness. It's a cultural norm in the inner city to not back down to someone who slights you. It's a cultural norm in rural America to refuse to ask for any help for your mental health. Fixing these particular issues is going to take generations. It's a Herculean task and, by comparison, fixing the opioid crisis seems more likely in the short term.

Getting back to the homicide/suicide rates. What do we do about it? Advocating for the disarmament of the most affected populations would rightly earn you the nickname Hitler of 2022. Limiting everyone's access to guns is punitive to responsible gun owners who shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of psychopaths. Compulsory training sounds more reasonable now that states are moving to constitutional carry, but can you imagine the outrage if the gun range was a mandatory class required to graduate high school? I think that'd be the next best step at this point. It's a compromise from mandatory gun ownership. But what other options are there? 

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35 minutes ago, VaporTrail said:

I reject those explanations just as you do. I think your first question is a valid one, but I think it is very difficult in this political climate to have the conversation to fix it. But take a look at the total number of gun deaths in that link I posted above. You're on the same order of magnitude as getting in a car accident, which is way too high, in my opinion. 

1 - The sheer amount of guns our country has is not comparable to anywhere else in the West. It creates the obvious logistics problem if trying to track/license/disarm

2 - Culturally, society is getting sicker. There were much more dangerous guns available pre-1986, but the homicide rates are going up. More money into mental health initiatives is great, but does nothing to address the root cause of why people can get to the point where they are willing to kill another human. 

3 - Here is the latest data from the CDC on racial disparities on gun violence. Woody, you might be shocked to learn that I actually voted for funding the CDC to study gun violence at the Ohio State Medical Association and at the American Medical Association.

image.png.ae75887fe10c76bc2f7f7f4cd20936b0.png

As you can see, the Black community rates are on par with places like Honduras, whereas White/Asian communities have gun homicide rates comparable to western European nations. For suicides, it's the White and Native populations bringing the average up, whereas Black/Hispanic/Asian communities are comparable to European nations. Unfortunately, due to the political climate today, I'm not touching this one with a forty-foot pole at our medical meetings. 

There are systemic inequities that do explain some of this - SES, crack/opioid epidemic, distrust in authorities. One thing that I don't think gets talked about enough in this context is the culture of toxic masculinity. It's the common denominator between urban black and rural white culture, where homicides and suicides are most prevalent. Men are raised to be stoic, and it's unacceptable to show any weakness. It's a cultural norm in the inner city to not back down to someone who slights you. It's a cultural norm in rural America to refuse to ask for any help for your mental health. Fixing these particular issues is going to take generations. It's a Herculean task and, by comparison, fixing the opioid crisis seems more likely in the short term.

Getting back to the homicide/suicide rates. What do we do about it? Advocating for the disarmament of the most affected populations would rightly earn you the nickname Hitler of 2022. Limiting everyone's access to guns is punitive to responsible gun owners who shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of psychopaths. Compulsory training sounds more reasonable now that states are moving to constitutional carry, but can you imagine the outrage if the gun range was a mandatory class required to graduate high school? I think that'd be the next best step at this point. It's a compromise from mandatory gun ownership. But what other options are there? 

Let may have asked you this. Since you touched on opioid addiction what would be the downside of decriminalizing opioid use? It would eliminate the need for the addict to indulge in criminal behavior by keeping costs down and also helping to guarantee the purity by taking the guesswork out of the street product? Not particularly my proposal just curious as to your opinion?

WSS 

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35 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

A well regulated militia is completely vague and meaningless term. I have absolutely no doubt a militia of civilians could easily be well-regulated.*

Whether or not someone is a "gun nut" it comes down to this: how much have your freedom are you willing to give up? As Michael Moore and others have said it's time to repeal the Second Amendment. If you are serious. If you're not and it's just a campaign issue over meaningless restrictions just say so.

WSS

* and the concept that we are a free state has long since left the barn.

Well at the moment I ain't givin' 'em up because myself and two others are primarily responsible for making sure the murderer of my last college roommate has failed two parole hearings. His next hearing is two years from now and if he fails that one he is scheduled for release in Aug 2025 regardless. The quandary now is do we argue for release in 2024 so he wears an ankle bracelet and has restrictions on where he can go while under supervision or do we once again assure that he fails it which keeps the target on us for revenge from this sociopath who meticulously planned out that murder. He would not be on parole or restriction of any kind if he finishes his time out.

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6 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Well at the moment I ain't givin' 'em up because myself and two others are primarily responsible for making sure the murderer of my last college roommate has failed two parole hearings. His next hearing is two years from now and if he fails that one he is scheduled for release in Aug 2025 regardless. The quandary now is do we argue for release in 2024 so he wears an ankle bracelet and has restrictions on where he can go while under supervision or do we once again assure that he fails it which keeps the target on us for revenge from this sociopath who meticulously planned out that murder. He would not be on parole or restriction of any kind if he finishes his time out.

Again I'll just participating in a discussion not attacking anybody for their reasons one way or the other.

Just making the point that in this Society halfway measures will do absolutely nothing, or actually making the situation worse.. At some point everyone who'll need to decide whether or not and how much freedom to sacrifice.

WSS

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3 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

And I disagree

 

I'll concede gun owners will be a mild irritation to the spooky evil future government, and nothing more. Definitely not a hypothetical to validate the amount of gun deaths we have in our country now. 

 

You can barely bring yourself to concede that we should maybe restrict gun ownership for those that have showed a mental ability to harm others. This is why I don't expect anything to actually happen to improve the issue. We get tiny little actions, if at all. Or we hear about how there isn't enough church attendance or the classic, video games are the issue. It's pathetic. 

 

 

My ask is why we have this gun violence issue and other developed countries don't? Do they not have video games? Do they not have falling church attendance? Do they not have large cities? Our country's gun culture is a broken one. A culture that immediately points the finger at everything else following a mass shooting instead of itself. A culture that puts a statistically acceptable value to the life of a child gun downed in their classroom because freedom or something.

There are plenty of actionable steps we could take to improve the issue. But you either just get "well that won't stop everything so what's the point" or standard slippery slope fallacy nonsense. 

And we can do this whole song and dance the next time there is a mass shooting. And the next time. And the next time. And the next time. And...

How will taking guns from law abiding citizens keep criminals from doing evil?

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.If guns are so evil why are there not hundreds of millions gun killings every day?

Because it's not the gun (tool) it's the evil human being doing the killing, you can take all the guns you want man will find a way to kill...

So until you decide to fix the true issue (evil sick people) nothing will really change except the method of killing.

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43 minutes ago, Vambo said:

.If guns are so evil why are there not hundreds of millions gun killings every day?

Because it's not the gun (tool) it's the evil human being doing the killing, you can take all the guns you want man will find a way to kill...

So until you decide to fix the true issue (evil sick people) nothing will really change except the method of killing.

Exactly. And it is impossible to repair the root cause. Even if there is a cause aside from that person just being a defective carbon unit. Good luck locking everybody up in a mental institution that shows signs of danger. Even better luck trying to get them to take the medications that make them feel like s***.

WSS

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24 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Exactly. And it is impossible to repair the root cause. Even if there is a cause aside from that person just being a defective carbon unit. Good luck locking everybody up in a mental institution that shows signs of danger. Even better luck trying to get them to take the medications that make them feel like s***.

WSS

Unless you eliminate all guns from the earth people who want to shoot people will get a gun, you can take guns from every citizen in the world but if military, police and private security still have guns the black market will always be able to get them to sell illegally.  Instead of common sense gun reform how about a little good old COMMON SENSE!

Woody do you think a machinist has the skill to build a gun?

 

Leave my Shooty Stick alone!

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2 minutes ago, Vambo said:

Unless you eliminate all guns from the earth people who want to shoot people will get a gun, you can take guns from ever citizen in the world but if military, police and private security still have guns the black market will always be able to get them to sell illegally.  Instead of common sense gun reform how about a little good old COMMON SENSE!

Woody do you think a machinist has the skill to build a gun?

 

Leave my Shooty Stick alone!

Not only that but consider how much Fentanyl marijuana and illegal immigrants are opioids come across the border every day.

WSS

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1 minute ago, Westside Steve said:

Not only that but consider how much Fentanyl marijuana and illegal immigrants are opioids come across the border every day.

WSS

woody keeps using Australia as an example ...

It is an island they don't have the open border situation as we do because of Joe Biden.

They have ~ 300,000,000 less people as the United States.

Comparing apples to oranges...have you seen the tic tock video's of who's teaching children and you wonder why the get so confused and screwed up.

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You have these yahoo's who are trying to convince you men are women and women are men (2+2=5) and it's normal for preschoolers to talk to adults about sex in school instead of math, reading, writing and history.

They are the ones who say killing babies up until birth is a OK form of birth control but how dare you not want to give up your gun.

How to screw up a child...Vote Democrat!

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https://www.britannica.com/topic/Second-Amendment

The Second Amendment, ratified in 1791, was proposed by James Madison to allow the creation of civilian forces that can counteract a tyrannical federal government. Anti-Federalists believed that a centralized standing military, established by the Constitutional Convention, gave the federal government too much power and potential for violent oppression.

********************************************

      So, the 2nd Amendment recognizes the need to have an armed federal military. BUT it also mandates that private ownership and use of guns "Shall NOT BE infringed". The meaning is to protect Americans from a future? corrupt, violent, oppressive, UNConstitutional gov.

   Again, since the left ignores the point - it isn't all that sillier now than it was back then. The principle is still the same. Americans must be armed to protect itself from corrupt police depts, and corrupt rogue military groups in time of national gov aggression.

   The retort about "give up your guns because the gov has drones etc" just defies any intelligent discussion. There is maybe 180 MILLION gun owners? probably more?

   Whether or not it's geniune - the left is using the horrific murders to justify their demand to win politically. That is their primary directive in everything they pretend to stand for. Some reps too? sure.

    This is a very serious problem that will require serious time to implement a legitmate solution. Kids by many thousands have had knives in school. 

    There is a serious, underlying problem with a small percentage of kids in schools - but any percentage is too much.

   The emotional screaming about guns ignores the true problem. Take one tool away, the murders will simply use another tool. arson, bombs, cars, knives.

   The left doesn't care. They want their poltiical win over the 2nd Amendment - which isn't what they value, so they want to defeat it.

   Social media is exaserbating the violence problem. There have always been loners, kids who were hoodlums, some end up in jail for assault, etc.

   But nothing can be a solution that has the politicl win as the primary goal.

   So sad.

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20 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Not only that but consider how much Fentanyl marijuana and illegal immigrants are opioids come across the border every day.

WSS

This has been explained to the woodpecker here and there. But the samesqwawking just keeps on and on.

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8 minutes ago, Vambo said:

woody keeps using Australia as an example ...

It is an island they don't have the open border situation as we do because of Joe Biden.

They have ~ 300,000,000 less people as the United States.

Comparing apples to oranges...have you seen the tic tock video's of who's teaching children and you wonder why the get so confused and screwed up.

Aside from that the other countries in the world with the strictest gun control laws are in order, Singapore red China Japan Great Britain, and Germany.

I would have to look to see for sure but it would be my guess that a diverse culture oh, similar to the one we have the United States, not just people from different backgrounds, is not inherent to any of those countries.

WSS

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Simply put - Sweden has an incredible HIGH rate of gun ownership. It is also one of the countries with the LOWEST murder rate.

   It is not "guns".  Something is wrong with some kids/adults in America. Gun ownership has nothing to do with it.

   Meaning, gun control has nothing to do with it.

   Sweden is very open to migrants and refugees. But not many of them are from destitute, crime-ridden, cartel dominated parts of third world mexico.

   Something is wrong in our public school system. Too many fatherless homes, too much social media, too much cultural hate and anger.

   Politically fighting our 2nd Amendment is seriously wasting time to study what is really the problem.

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6 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

And I disagree

 

I'll concede gun owners will be a mild irritation to the spooky evil future government, and nothing more. Definitely not a hypothetical to validate the amount of gun deaths we have in our country now. 

 

You can barely bring yourself to concede that we should maybe restrict gun ownership for those that have showed a mental ability to harm others. This is why I don't expect anything to actually happen to improve the issue. We get tiny little actions, if at all. Or we hear about how there isn't enough church attendance or the classic, video games are the issue. It's pathetic. 

 

 

My ask is why we have this gun violence issue and other developed countries don't? Do they not have video games? Do they not have falling church attendance? Do they not have large cities? Our country's gun culture is a broken one. A culture that immediately points the finger at everything else following a mass shooting instead of itself. A culture that puts a statistically acceptable value to the life of a child gun downed in their classroom because freedom or something.

There are plenty of actionable steps we could take to improve the issue. But you either just get "well that won't stop everything so what's the point" or standard slippery slope fallacy nonsense. 

And we can do this whole song and dance the next time there is a mass shooting. And the next time. And the next time. And the next time. And...

Thousands of illegal immigrants crossed border over Memorial Day weekend in one sector alone
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