Haslams Eyeing New Domed Stadium for Browns

[Dutch Oven]

https://news.yahoo.com/report-browns-exploring-sites-downtown-184800949.html

Seems apparent that the Haslams are ready to move away from First Energy Stadium, that will be only 29 years old when the lease runs out after the 2028 season. 

Three downtown areas have been discussed as possible locations for a domed (or retractable) stadium:

(1) The present area on the lakefront (the Haslams would buy many more acres around the existing footprint and develop the lakefront around a new stadium)

(2) An area in the E. 13-17th/St. Clair area, not far northeast from Progressive Field

(3) The current location of the post office hub south of Progressive Field, south of 480. A proposed 10,000 seat soccer stadium could be part of this plan, too. 

Not sure what happened to the original post, but here it is again for those who didn't get to see it. 
 

[Orion]

I'm thinking that they're just gonna keep moving this thread on ya.    

So, as I said in the 'other' thread, that got moved to the New Stadium abyss;  Having a dome could help to keep Watson for longer since he hates cold weather.  (that's like a half-joke)

And a 23 year old stadium is decrepit and needs to be replaced?  Really?  What lousy builders.  The ancient Romans are laughing it up in heaven. 

[Dutch Oven]

10 minutes ago, Orion said:

I'm thinking that they're just gonna keep moving this thread on ya.    

Gotta keep space for the real important threads on here. 😉

[TexasAg1969]

8 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Gotta keep space for the real important horseshit poliboard threads here. 😉

FIFY🙊

[nickers]

12 hours ago, Orion said:

I'm thinking that they're just gonna keep moving this thread on ya.    

So, as I said in the 'other' thread, that got moved to the New Stadium abyss;  Having a dome could help to keep Watson for longer since he hates cold weather.  (that's like a half-joke)

And a 23 year old stadium is decrepit and needs to be replaced?  Really?  What lousy builders.  The ancient Romans are laughing it up in heaven. 

I've been to Rome and have actually sat in the Colliseum.. its a lot smaller than it looks on TV or in Magazines... People then on average were only 4ft in height... People above 5ft were considered giants back then... Even went to Pompeii outside of Naples.. the rooms were small.. The doorways in most homes didn't exceed 4.5 ft

[mjp28]

5 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

FIFY🙊

That's good now we really know  what's important around here including other people's opinions and ideas no matter how many or few replies and views they might get.    

No FIFY needed.  

[mjp28]

2 hours ago, nickers said:

I've been to Rome and have actually sat in the Colliseum.. its a lot smaller than it looks on TV or in Magazines... People then on average were only 4ft in height... People above 5ft were considered giants back then... Even went to Pompeii outside of Naples.. the rooms were small.. The doorways in most homes didn't exceed 4.5 ft

That's true I remember my dad's family going back to the 1800s and 1900s two my uncles were about 5' 6" two aunts were 4' 10 and 11".  ALL of their kids, grandkids and great-grandkids were so much taller some over 6' tall.  My dad always said it was the better diets we had.  My dad's 5 boys were ALL taller than mom and dad. 

So true.  Even during WWII if our GIs were over 6' they were the "tall Americans"  MacArthur knew that and hand picked many of his staff to tower over the Japanese.....and it did have that effect over the usual shorter Japanese.   At the end of the WWII signing on the USS Missouri all of his staff were 6'2" around the Japanese delegation,  it had the desired effect. 

Look at kids today, taller and huge compared to the WWII generation.  

.......edit, from the signing preparation notes :

......Just before 9 a.m. as planned, Starnes — dressed in pressed khakis, with a pair of binoculars around his neck — waited to meet the Japanese delegation, including Gen. Yoshijiro Umezu, chief of the Imperial Japanese Army General Staff.

Once reaching the deck, the Japanese had to walk past eight seamen, each one more than 6 feet tall. Starnes had picked them out in a calculated effort to emphasize Allied superiority and intimidate the Japanese delegation...... (it worked) 

[Dutch Oven]

16 hours ago, Orion said:

And a 23 year old stadium is decrepit and needs to be replaced?  Really?  What lousy builders.  The ancient Romans are laughing it up in heaven. 

It seems to be how things are now with stadiums, I mean, how old was Three Rivers, Riverfront, etc when they were replaced? Probably not that much older than what First Energy will be when it gets replaced by whatever stadium the Haslams and tax money build. Even less for the ballparks the Braves and Rangers walked away from recently. (But are still being used for college football teams)

But First Energy is a mediocre stadium. Always felt to me like a stadium whose blueprints could be bought on-line for $199. The thing that makes no sense is that a complaint about First Energy by the Haslams is that because it sits right on the lakefront, it takes a beating. How much does anyone want to bet that the new stadium is built on the lakefront? 😁 The Haslams are going to build a hotel/restaurant/bar community around this stadium, and the lakefront is prime real estate to do this. Doubt they will complain about how their new stadium on the lakefront takes a beating from the elements when they are surrounded by the Haslam's cash cow business ventures. 

[mjp28]

16 hours ago, Orion said:

I'm thinking that they're just gonna keep moving this thread on ya.    

So, as I said in the 'other' thread, that got moved to the New Stadium abyss;  Having a dome could help to keep Watson for longer since he hates cold weather.  (that's like a half-joke)

★  But feels old.....And a 23 year old stadium is decrepit and needs to be replaced?  Really?  What lousy builders.  The ancient Romans are laughing it up in heaven. 

★ Some stadiums just feel old or just not well thought out.  I saw a lot of Pirates games in the 1970s in Three Rivers, always around 1st base BUT it just wasn't a good baseball park.  Dual use stadiums just don't work regardless of how old they are.   The 3 rivers was 30, riverfront 32 but everyone was glad when they were gone.

AND new stadiums have really nice amenities yes CBS is old and time to go.....but ONLY if it's well thought out and done right.......like a good steak, ooops wrong thread.   

[MLD Woody]

1) Wouldn't allow us to develop anything else on the lake (at least the stadium would still take up space). But would keep it on the lake. 

2) Not a huge fan of this one. Seems like it could get very congested fast. Though it free up the lake.

3) This seems like an area worth developing, and it provides land to develop on the lake. A soccer stadium would be awesome but idk what we'd do with an only 10k seat stadium. Crew is about twice that capacity. 

 

I guess if it's domed the surrounding view matters less. And it would be cool driving into Cleveland seeing a new stadium, especially relatively close to the other two. If we had a good plan for the lakefront area I think I'd vote 3

[nickers]

The bigger question is... Whose gonna foot the bill?...

[Canton Dawg]

15 minutes ago, nickers said:

The bigger question is... Whose gonna foot the bill?...

You can bet your azz it won’t be Jimmah.

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Canton Dawg said:

You can bet your azz it won’t be Jimmah.

Can you say Tax Abatement?... Sure ya can!

[hoorta]

21 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

It seems to be how things are now with stadiums, I mean, how old was Three Rivers, Riverfront, etc when they were replaced? Probably not that much older than what First Energy will be when it gets replaced by whatever stadium the Haslams and tax money build. Even less for the ballparks the Braves and Rangers walked away from recently. (But are still being used for college football teams)

But First Energy is a mediocre stadium. Always felt to me like a stadium whose blueprints could be bought on-line for $199. The thing that makes no sense is that a complaint about First Energy by the Haslams is that because it sits right on the lakefront, it takes a beating. How much does anyone want to bet that the new stadium is built on the lakefront? 😁 The Haslams are going to build a hotel/restaurant/bar community around this stadium, and the lakefront is prime real estate to do this. Doubt they will complain about how their new stadium on the lakefront takes a beating from the elements when they are surrounded by the Haslam's cash cow business ventures. 

Not much to disagree with, but see below.

21 hours ago, mjp28 said:

★ Some stadiums just feel old or just not well thought out.  I saw a lot of Pirates games in the 1970s in Three Rivers, always around 1st base BUT it just wasn't a good baseball park.  Dual use stadiums just don't work regardless of how old they are.   The 3 rivers was 30, riverfront 32 but everyone was glad when they were gone.

AND new stadiums have really nice amenities yes CBS is old and time to go.....but ONLY if it's well thought out and done right.......like a good steak, ooops wrong thread.   

First Energy was built on the quick and the cheap. Quality concrete shouldn't be crumbling after a mere 25 years. With me as my own general contractor, the driveway I built to interstate highway standards in 1991 is still in great shape.  The thought to make the new stadium have the "feel" of the old place was a disaster. Brings up my major gripe, compared to Ford Field, Lucas Oil, Reliant, or Paul Brown (more on PB later) the space behind the stands in First Energy is sardine city. I was hoping when they did the big upgrade, they'd do what Ohio State did, add another 100' or so to the concourses. 

It really chafes me that Cincinnati used the same architects as Cleveland, and Paul Brown turned out 10X nicer. 

Yeah, the trend is to build ever more deluxe venues like Jerry World and SoFi... but just because a stadium is 30+ years old doesn't necessarily make it obsolete. Arrowhead is a great place to see a football game. Never been to Lambeau, but the reports I've gotten say the same. So just stop the whining "but we're never going to get a  Super Bowl without a dome". You think the folks in  Foxborough care?

PS. The evolution of domed stadiums was in plain view in my trip to see the Browns play in Houston. The original Astrodome still stands (now used for rodeos and such), and it's positively dwarfed by Reliant Stadium next door.  

[mjp28]

4 hours ago, nickers said:

Can you say Tax Abatement?... Sure ya can!

Isn't that part of almost every project and has been for many decades now ?  

I always like to play the " follow the money " game. Who makes out ?  Which architects get the project started ?  Which general contractors and the subs get the jobs  -and-  if they're the low cost bidder do they make out ? How does the project finally come out ?   

I'm not always for the low bidders getting the job if they get in over their head and the final product might show it.

And finally who gets the check....who ultimately pays for these wonderful ideas ?   The word taxpayers gets thrown around a lot here.

~~~~~~~~~~   💲   ~~~~~~~~~~

NOTE: My last job with Nucor Steel was in their joist, joist girders and deck division the largest producer in America.  We would do large commercial buildings,  strip plazas, malls even multi-story and sky scrapers.  No residential. 

We often would get the drawings for these projects often a year or more in advance sometimes with no names just Project A.  We would sometimes go to DODGE Construction Drawings get those drawings to take off the job  and work up our prices on the "steel package".  Again either general contractors or the steel erectors getting their own numbers together to bid these jobs,  it was quite interesting. 

I've been retired for years now and Nucor has grown to be the largest steel and related steel products manufacturer in the USA.   

It starts with the steel   where I spent most of my working life, and I enjoyed every minute of it.    

[mjp28]

39 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Not much to disagree with, but see below.

First Energy was built on the quick and the cheap. Quality concrete shouldn't be crumbling after a mere 25 years. With me as my own general contractor, the driveway I built to interstate highway standards in 1991 is still in great shape.  The thought to make the new stadium have the "feel" of the old place was a disaster. Brings up my major gripe, compared to Ford Field, Lucas Oil, Reliant, or Paul Brown (more on PB later) the space behind the stands in First Energy is sardine city. I was hoping when they did the big upgrade, they'd do what Ohio State did, add another 100' or so to the concourses. 

It really chafes me that Cincinnati used the same architects as Cleveland, and Paul Brown turned out 10X nicer. 

Yeah, the trend is to build ever more deluxe venues like Jerry World and SoFi... but just because a stadium is 30+ years old doesn't necessarily make it obsolete. Arrowhead is a great place to see a football game. Never been to Lambeau, but the reports I've gotten say the same. So just stop the whining "but we're never going to get a  Super Bowl without a dome". You think the folks in  Foxborough care?

PS. The evolution of domed stadiums was in plain view in my trip to see the Browns play in Houston. The original Astrodome still stands (now used for rodeos and such), and it's positively dwarfed by Reliant Stadium next door.  

Great points !

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Great points !

Silly me. I meant to say NRG Stadium in Houston, not Reliant. But to my other point- here's what 55 or so years of progress in domed stadiums looks like. The 8th Wonder of the World no longer.     

BTW, when it was constructed in 2002 Reliant (since renamed NRG)  "only" had a price tag of $358 million. (factoring in inflation $581 million) Bargain basement compared to the cost of building a domed stadium today.   

[Dutch Oven]

10 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

1) Wouldn't allow us to develop anything else on the lake (at least the stadium would still take up space). But would keep it on the lake. 

2) Not a huge fan of this one. Seems like it could get very congested fast. Though it free up the lake.

3) This seems like an area worth developing, and it provides land to develop on the lake. A soccer stadium would be awesome but idk what we'd do with an only 10k seat stadium. Crew is about twice that capacity. 

 

I guess if it's domed the surrounding view matters less. And it would be cool driving into Cleveland seeing a new stadium, especially relatively close to the other two. If we had a good plan for the lakefront area I think I'd vote 3

I would love to see the lakefront FINALLY be developed (hoorta, Gipper and I had a loooooong discussion about this topic a couple years ago) and I concur, I'd prefer the new stadium to NOT be on the lakefront to free more space up too. Ironically, I think the area south of 480 on Orange is where Gateway considered building a Browns stadum if they would have joined in while Jacobs Field and Gund Arena were being built. (I think)

The soccer stadium would be 10,000 seats because Cleveland's outdoor soccer team is in the lower league, below the league the Crew play in. 

[MLD Woody]

10 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I would love to see the lakefront FINALLY be developed (hoorta, Gipper and I had a loooooong discussion about this topic a couple years ago) and I concur, I'd prefer the new stadium to NOT be on the lakefront to free more space up too. Ironically, I think the area south of 480 on Orange is where Gateway considered building a Browns stadum if they would have joined in while Jacobs Field and Gund Arena were being built. (I think)

The soccer stadium would be 10,000 seats because Cleveland's outdoor soccer team is in the lower league, below the league the Crew play in. 

10k is overkill for the current Cleveland soccer team. If we're building a soccer stadium I assume it's for an eventual MLS expansion and USMNT / USWNT games. 

 

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

10k is overkill for the current Cleveland soccer team. If we're building a soccer stadium I assume it's for an eventual MLS expansion and USMNT / USWNT games. 

 

I don't follow soccer, so I plead ignorance on this. Just reporting what I saw in one of the articles, and what I've seen in the past regarding said soccer stadium. 

 

[MLD Woody]

14 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I don't follow soccer, so I plead ignorance on this. Just reporting what I saw in one of the articles, and what I've seen in the past regarding said soccer stadium. 

 

I watched Cleveland SC play the new Akron club down at Lebron's high school. Definitely not a sell out either. 

 

Cleveland SCs home stadium now is BWs football field, which is like 8500 capacity. 

So I guess a new stadium would be close

[Dutch Oven]

14 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

I watched Cleveland SC play the new Akron club down at Lebron's high school. Definitely not a sell out either. 

 

Cleveland SCs home stadium now I'd BWs football field 

Is this Cleveland team in the same league Cincinnati's soccer team used to be in, but got promoted to the top league because they drew so well?

[MLD Woody]

29 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Is this Cleveland team in the same league Cincinnati's soccer team used to be in, but got promoted to the top league because they drew so well?

This league is like 2 or 3 below MLS, semi professional, so probably not. But I'm not sure. 

[Orion]

8 hours ago, hoorta said:

"but we're never going to get a  Super Bowl without a dome". You think the folks in  Foxborough care?

They don't have Tom Brady any more.  That euphoria is over.  -  It's all about winning.  When my generation was young, a few of us could decide to go see a game, get in the car and drive the 45 minutes to the stadium, buy tickets at the box office, go inside and watch the game.  It's all about winning..  It's harder to make yourself go watch your team, in the winter type weather, in an outdoor stadium, when the team is not a consistent winner.....than it is to go watch them in a dome and not get soaked and frozen.  And it doesn't matter the team name.  

[Canton Dawg]

11 hours ago, nickers said:

Can you say Tax Abatement?... Sure ya can!

Maybe Watson can loan the Haslams some money for the new stadium?

[mjp28]

Just now, Canton Dawg said:

Maybe Watson can loan the Haslams some money for the new stadium?      Now that would be an interesting conversation.   Hey DW can you chip in for $100M, we know you're good for it.  

Maybe DW doesn't want to get involved in the DW mess.

But DW minority owner does sound......strange.   

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, Orion said:

They don't have Tom Brady any more.  That euphoria is over.  -  It's all about winning.  When my generation was young, a few of us could decide to go see a game, get in the car and drive the 45 minutes to the stadium, buy tickets at the box office, go inside and watch the game.  It's all about winning..  It's harder to make yourself go watch your team, in the winter type weather, in an outdoor stadium, when the team is not a consistent winner.....than it is to go watch them in a dome and not get soaked and frozen.  And it doesn't matter the team name.  

Are you trying to say you're now an oldster, who doesn't like to get cold and\ or wet at a game anymore? I've been to three domed stadiums... Lions, Colts, and Texans. MHO  is if you like that sort of ambiance, you may as well stay home and watch the game on TV, because that's what it feels like in a Dome.  

If my count is correct, there's only 9 "true" domed stadiums in the NFL. SoFi is covered but IIRC it's open air.  Every one of those Domes has pretty legit reasons for being domed. Vikes, cold weather . Cardinals and Raiders 110 degrees in early September. You could say Indy and Detroit don't have any worse weather than Cleveland. TBD if Buffalo's new stadium will be domed or not. So the other 23 teams without a dome suffer the same fate as Cleveland... We can't use that facility year round for stuff...   

Yeah, I may be an outlier with my mountaineering and winter camping experience. But it's ALL how you approach the weather, and having the right gear. I sat through 10 degree weather with occasional snow at Michigan's Stadium for the NHL Hockey Winter Classic, and I can' honestly say I wasn't cold. .  

[Vambo]

Quote

“As we have consistently communicated, along with the City of Cleveland, the Greater Cleveland Partnership and other prominent local organizations, we have been immersed in discussing ways to best approach the lakefront’s future and the stadium naturally is a critical piece to the long-term execution of such a project. Contrary to recent speculation, a recent feasibility study we launched does not contemplate a new stadium or showcase new stadium sites. A significant stadium renovation at our current site is the premise of the study as well as a focus on how to provide accessibility to the lakefront, drive density and create 365-destination major development opportunities that would include new public parks, retail, office, experiential and residential spaces. The vision, as many in our community have already seen, is centered on an extensive land bridge. As we are just beginning the study, we certainly do not have enough information to determine the cost of renovating the stadium or what the aesthetics of such a renovation would entail. We believe our study will help answer those questions and should be completed in 2023. The future of the stadium is one of several important pieces to the long-term execution of the lakefront project, and our organization looks forward to continuing to work with our community partners and leaders to identify next steps and our role in helping advance this initiative.”

Peter John-Baptiste, Haslam Sports Group

‘Contrary to recent speculation’: Browns respond to report they’re looking into new stadium

https://fox8.com/news/contrary-to-recent-speculation-browns-respond-to-report-theyre-looking-into-new-stadium/

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Vambo said:

‘Contrary to recent speculation’: Browns respond to report they’re looking into new stadium

https://fox8.com/news/contrary-to-recent-speculation-browns-respond-to-report-theyre-looking-into-new-stadium/

 Some of the "Dome" crowd wishin' and a hoping'.  Reading the entire original article, that multi million dollar land bridge over the tracks has to be funded first. 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/decisions-of-the-past-could-determine-future-plans-for-firstenergy-stadium-lease

Yeah, I initially thought $100 or $200 million would be enough to spruce up the place. Silly me....  The cost of needed upgrades (around a billion or so) approaches the cost of building an entirely new stadium.   Hence the speculation it would be better to just build new. Lotsa luck figuring out how you could pull $1.5 billion out of your ass in Cuyahoga County to build a new stadium.  

Damn... As I replied to mjp.. the stadium was built too fast and too cheaply. Crumbling concrete? My brother- who did cement work for years, and was my expert on putting in my new driveway...  You DON'T want to be pouring concrete when the temperature is way below freezing and using accelerant to make the stuff actually harden at those temperatures.      

  

[Dutch Oven]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

TBD if Buffalo's new stadium will be domed or not. .  

Buffalo will have a 62,000 seat open-air stadium. It is estimated that it will cost well over a billion dollars. 

https://buffalonews.com/news/local/hochul-reaffirms-again-no-dome-for-a-new-bills-stadium/article_0a2a1116-6fec-11ec-8ee7-278bb6dfeb68.html#:~:text=The%20next%20Bills%20stadium%2C%20like,Kathy%20Hochul%20said%20again%20Friday.