Woods & Watson

[Orion]

One is finally gone.....and the other is finally here.

There were those who wanted Woods gone at this time last year.  Of course there were those who wanted somebody new gone every week...as well as those who hate everybody.  I didn't realize that Woods was the problem until it started to come out through the players that his schemes were causing players not to be in sync with each other too many times during games.  I didn't blame him for the inability to stop the run because it appeared to be mostly an IDL talent issue.  Plus the loss of his two middle linebackers.  He was pretty much screwed there.

Now we have Jim Schwartz to coordinate the D.  He wants to be able to pressure the QB with as few players as possible (4).  And then blitz because he wants to every so often, and not because he HAS to quite often.  Well...he's going to need some reinforcements sent his way...like at least 1 each, DT & DE.  And many of us feel that he would've let that be known to the organization during the courting phase.  And they better get him what he needs because it's Defense that wins Championships.

Now let's turn to the offense...because without offense, your defense doesn't get to the playoffs to win you that Championship.  This is where Watson finally being here comes in.  He is the QB that the organization went out on a limb for.  That they broke the bank and pissed off the league for.  Oh, and pissed off a segment of the fan base for.  

Our expensive new QB had a screwed up season.  He went through TC and preseason....but then was banished from the field for 3 months...and banished from the team and facility for the vast majority of those 3 months.  This situation effectively put Watson behind the 8 ball in terms of having any hope of playing at a high level with his new team and playbook.  And sure enough, he didn't perform to a high level.  Although, perhaps, he showed a little something in the second half of his 4th game.  But then we had the frozen game against the Saints where we embarrassingly lost.  Although Watson threw 3 beautiful passes for TD's that were dropped by frozen fingers and because of feet sliding on the frozen field.

So Watson's 6 games to finish the season did not leave us with the warm fuzzies that he's our savior at QB.  Perhaps it's unfair to say that based on what he had to go through...but who said life was fair?  Truthfully though, it wasn't all his fault.  IMO our highly rated OL was not playing to their reputation.  Callahan's got some work to do this offseason and somebody's gotta get a fire lit under Wills for next year.

This 2022 season, prior to the first snap of the year, was perceived to be a throw-away season.  We were screwed with Brissett at the helm and the defense was going to have to carry the team.  Well, the season was, in fact, a waste but not how thought.  Brissett was our best QB this season...and that's no disrespect to Watson...Jacoby played well above our expectations.  The offense wasn't the big problem.  Instead the D turned out to be a problem.  Somehow, the Brown always seem to amaze ya. 

This upcoming 2023 season is going to be a very important season for the FO and the HC.  I doubt trigger-finger-Haslem will tolerate a losing season.  We've seen his act before. 

[ballpeen]

It is a big season for the team.  Make or break actually.  Either we start down a winning path or go down the drain.  I agree that unless something drastic happens in the way of injury, if we don't look good and win, both Stefanski and Berry are done.  Haslam will be fully justified to pull the plug.

 

This will be year four.  We have spent the money.  We have taken the PR hits.  It's time for some payout.  I am not going to say playoffs or bust, but if we don't make the playoffs, we probably need to win 10 games to justify sticking with the plan.

[nickers]

2 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

It is a big season for the team.  Make or break actually.  Either we start down a winning path or go down the drain.  I agree that unless something drastic happens in the way of injury, if we don't look good and win, both Stefanski and Berry are done.  Haslam will be fully justified to pull the plug.

 

This will be year four.  We have spent the money.  We have taken the PR hits.  It's time for some payout.  I am not going to say playoffs or bust, but if we don't make the playoffs, we probably need to win 10 games to justify sticking with the plan.

I expect the same results in 23 year as was in 22... Stefanski being the weak link and a QB who has under achieved IMO

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, nickers said:

I expect the same results in 23 year as was in 22... Stefanski being the weak link and a QB who has under achieved IMO

I don't expect it, but you could be right.  The worst case is Stefanski doesn't make it to game 8 this season.  I don't think Jimmy is going to be very happy if we are sitting at 2-5.  The team needs to not only get above .500, they need to build cushion above .500.  This is especially true if the D plays well.  

 

If the D doesn't under a proven coordinator, then Berry's roster is was overrated and garbage and he needs to go.

[Orion]

5 hours ago, nickers said:

I expect the same results in 23 year as was in 22...

Atta boy.  Set the bar low.  That way you're not too disappointed with the results. 

 

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

There are always a lot of variables in the Browns off seasons, and this one is no different.

We can be optimistic about Watson, Schwartz and new players. we can also be pessimistic believing as I lean toward, that the FO dynamic will again present an unremarkable product.

Even with the immense amount of football smarts on TBB, there really is no way for any of us to really to have anything more than an educated guess.

What bothers me most, is that the Browns team really doesn't have a list of things that it does well. What can we point to that can be counted on as core strengths that the new guys can take and build upon?

For the life of me I sure as fuck don't know. 

Pessimistic or optimistic, whether we want to admit it or not, we're all Homer's.

We deserve to be homers. Somewhere, some how, eventually someone is going to bring a spark to this team.

I hope Watson is the new Terry Bradshaw/Favre/insert your guy.

If I'm not here next opening day kickoff, at least I mingled with the best.

Enjoy the SB. 

[mjp28]

14 hours ago, Orion said:

Atta boy.  Set the bar low.  That way you're not too disappointed with the results. 

 

Just remember boys & girls four  of the 2022 games were decided by 3 or 2 points.  That 7-10 season could have easily been 11-6 or 10-7  maybe even a playoff shot.   I can remember a few plays, missed FGs or HC calls that could have easily swung games around.   Don't you  ?

With Watson in for camps, maybe preseason and start game 1 on what or who says that they can't make an AFCN division run ?  Playoffs  ?  Whatever, long way to go.

AND ....  GO BROWNS,  playoffs ..... baby !   

 

[ballpeen]

I don't forget.  We could have won more....but we didn't.

 

What we don't know is if we eliminated the reasons why we didn't.

 

I guess that is why I am optimistic and think we win 11 games next season.  It is also the reason why I won't be shocked if we name Schwartz interim by game 8.  Not to sound overdramatic, but the next 5-6 seasons are going to be dictated by what happens this season.

[Orion]

As noted, we could quite easily have had 10 wins in this last season of QB sanctions.  The keys, Watson having a 'regular' NFL season and playing close to expectations.   Another quality receiving option.  And Schwartz getting the DLine that he wants.  -  I can't predict much until I see the players acquired in March and April.

[mjp28]

3 hours ago, Orion said:

As noted, we could quite easily have had 10 wins in this last season of QB sanctions.  The keys, Watson having a 'regular' NFL season and playing close to expectations.   Another quality receiving option.  And Schwartz getting the DLine that he wants.  -  I can't predict much until I see the players acquired in March and April.

When I saw your.... "Woods & Watson " .... for a second I was thinking  golf  but  *bing*  right back to Cleveland BROWNS football  and what it  was last year and what might be in 2023.

OMG can it be 2023 already,  time flies when you're having fun ......     

...... edit add, Oh yeah all the theoretical talk about  AI  and integrating it in to all kinds of decision making who knows how long until it creeps into NFL decision making  .... putting a team together,  and all that jazz BUT you still need some common sense too.  Well see ....

Edited February 4, 2023 by mjp28

[Flugel]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:45 AM, ballpeen said:

I don't expect it, but you could be right.  The worst case is Stefanski doesn't make it to game 8 this season.  I don't think Jimmy is going to be very happy if we are sitting at 2-5.  The team needs to not only get above .500, they need to build cushion above .500.  This is especially true if the D plays well.  

 

If the D doesn't under a proven coordinator, then Berry's roster is was overrated and garbage and he needs to go.

We hear a lot about the Coordinators when things go wrong, which is justified a lot of the time.  However, when it comes to a GM/Personnel Gran Pooh-bah - we have to wait 3 years before we can fairly judge their drafts.  If some of those guys don't pan out - this is when a Coordinator sometimes gets too much of the credit for the bad unfolding.

To say such a thing, I need to elaborate further here.  It's usually inevitable where a fan will say the Coordinator is responsible for the player development in the system the player is drafted to.  Partially true, but there's also a Head Coach who is involved with interviewing the following coaching staff positions (that the Coordinators may assist him with selecting): Defensive Line Coach, Assistant Defensive Line Coach, Defensive Run Game Coordinator, Linebackers Coach, Defensive Backs Coach, Assistant Defensive Backs Coach, Defensive Assistant, Defensive Quality Control, Sr Offensive Assistant, Offensive Assistant, QBs Coach, Offensive Line Coach, Assistant Offensive Line Coach, RBs Coach, Receivers Coach, Assistant Receivers Coach, TEs Coach, Offensive Assistant, Offensive Quality Control, Assistant Special Teams Coach.  All these coaches and their assistants are the nuts and bolts of developing the guys our FO drafts/acquires to the system the Browns have set up.

Inevitable question, what if they don't fit the system - isn't your Coordinator square-pegging round holes so he needs to be fired Flugel?  That depends, do we change an entire system we wanted to install here because some mid-late round guys that might not be good enough for the NFL are having trouble with it?  This is where the fine line comes into play.  When we draft Receivers that can't catch the ball with any consistency - should we change our offense for them or realize the teams that frequent playoffs don't waste their time drafting this type of guy?  Poor Anthony Schwartz went on prozac because of performance anxiety.  Do we blame the Coordinator or the guy who wasted a draft pick on him in round 3?  Have we been good enough to just "wtf let's roll the dice on him in round 3?" 

Are we good enough to draft a lazy pass protector that played RT in college as our Left Tackle (and blindside pass protector) at #10 overall in round 1 because we have the one of the best Offensive Line Coaches in the league + an Assistant?  He didn't play well at all this year; so do we need to fire the OL Coach or the Coordinator? Or do we realize the FO didn't fill a very important need/position when and where we were positioned to do so in the 1st round?  Some might say, the flexibility to just move him to RT if he fails is a good thing.  I can only give that a maybe at best; especially since our FO just extended Jack Conklin's contract at RT for a lot of cake.  Not only that, James Hudson continues to improve because of a good work ethic I'm not seeing at all from Wills.  He might already be a better RT than Wills at a much cap friendlier price. Should we change our entire offense to accommodate the limitations of Wills?   Truth be told, he's the guy we're square pegging into a very important position that'll cause us to use a TE to help him with the edge rush or a RB to chip him.  This liability, impacts the numbers we can attack a pass coverage with. On the surface, the Coaches and Coordinators will get blamed for him; but I'm going to give the FO the credit they deserve for this.  The time to find out he's lazy and unmotivated isn't when he's starting at Left Tackle 3 years into things.  To accommodate his limitations, we almost have to downshift into a much less desirable pass game that is almost exclusively short drop-quick throws on passes we don't have to tie up receivers helping Wills. 

Last, but not least, the IDL was a major concern. In fairness, I don't think this was why Joe Woods got fired at all.  I think it was more from the coverage breakdowns and complete lack of communication.  Coaches are supposed to be Good Teachers; especially Coordinators.  I'm not sure the position coaches always understood what Woods wanted from them; so it only made sense the secondary didn't.  That said, they could have communicated better with each other during certain parts of the year.  The Defensive Line has a position coach and his assistant coach to teach techniques and fundamentals many of these guys have been using since junior high school.  It's nowhere near the hardest position to learn, not to be confused with easiest to play.  It's got challenges especially in the IDL.  I rarely ever see our Pro Bowl OGs get ragdolled.  When they get beat very infrequently, it's usually by quickness or a wrong read.  Relating this to our IDL/DTs - the ONLY time I saw Elliott get a sack involved nobody attempting to block him (a missed assignment/wrong read by the OL) and once in a while/every few games - he'll make a tackle for a loss.  There's been no priority or urgency to draft IDL before rounds 3 and 4.  When the FO let Sheldon Richardson (and his veteran leadership) go - someone on the Browns website said the FO indicated they can't see paying a DT the type of money they had committed to Richardson.  When he was out there - the DL was getting their hands up in the air in the Playoff Game at Pittsburgh batting and deflecting Roethlisberger's passes to the extent he threw 5 INTs in that game. Richardson mattered not only as a player but as a leader.  I don't know if this FO is good at understanding features like this because there's no spreadsheet capable of capturing it - so it doesn't exist to them. 

When I lived in Western NY back when the Bills went to 4 consecutive Super Bowls, their scouts used to go as far as interviewing high school teachers and coaches about the character, work ethic and communication skills of the prospects they were interested in. Bill Polian was their GM; and he had a knack for finding a lot of small school and late round gems.  That's how they found a Steve Tasker or an Andre Reed from D3 Kutztown State, Don Beebe from D2 Chadron State, Pete Metzlaars from D3 Wabash College or a Mark Kelso from William and Mary or Jeff Wright from Central Missouri State or a Phil Hansen from North Dakota State. All those guys played significant roles for their Super Bowl Teams.   I don't get the sense they were putting on blindfolds and playing pin the tail on the donkey with these picks. They were drafting guys they knew that would be worth investing the time and energy into developing. Not just spreadsheet bullshit - but scouts that went to work researching what their GM/FO and Owner felt was important.  I can only hope we have the right FO for this very important draft/off season....

If you made it this far, thanks for your patience!  

 

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

When I lived in Western NY back when the Bills went to 4 consecutive Super Bowls, their scouts used to go as far as interviewing high school teachers and coaches about the character, work ethic and communication skills of the prospects they were interested in

Really EXCELLENT post.  The excerpt above is important. Canton Mike and I talked about it for years. I believe it's self-defeating to not consider character, work ethic, love for the game, competitiveness, desire to WIN - when you draft, and even sign a fa.

    How can teams expect a player to grow and be the best he can be, when he's lazy and doesn't care? Your point about the Bills is spot on - and let me bring up what Josh Cribbs said back when he went to the Jets: Cribbs was one of the most exciting players ever - he gave 100% every second. He didn't HAVE to play wr - he wanted to. He was also honest - and look what he said. The ownership/fo determined the basic fundamentals of how the direction of the team goes - including the draft with the Bills - but the Browns? they all too often draft players that do NOT work out.

https://www.nfldraftdiamonds.com › 2013 › 10 › josh-cribbs-says-the-jets-are-not-the-browns-they-dont-give-up

Josh Cribbs says the "Jets" are not the "Browns" they don't give up

Josh Cribbs was on the New York Jets this past weekend when they were whooped by the Cincinnati Bengals in a major loss. Well Josh was asked by the media what he thought of the game and this was his quote, it sounds like a major smack in the face of his former team: "We're […]

*************************************************

[ballpeen]

No doubt the FO and coaching have to work in concert.  Just to simplify the point, if you are going hog hunting with a rifle you have to stake out on the edge of a clearing.  If you are going with a heavy revolver, you have to go root around in the brush.  It isn't going to work if you go about things the opposite.

 

I think on O we are pretty much on the same page.  I think both Berry and Stef wanted a speed type receiver.  We just picked the wrong guy in Schwartz.  I think this evolves for a coach who feels they can coach anybody who has the skills you can't teach.

 

I think that is way wrong.  If you have a guy who can't catch by the time he is 20, he isn't going to be taught at that age.  That is as basic as it gets.  You learn that when you are 8 years old tossing balls around with your dad or buddies out in the schoolyard. Add in all the coaching from pee wee football through college.  You don't have to be a pro coach to be able to teach someone to catch a ball.

[SdBacker80]

16 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

There are always a lot of variables in the Browns off seasons, and this one is no different.

We can be optimistic about Watson, Schwartz and new players. we can also be pessimistic believing as I lean toward, that the FO dynamic will again present an unremarkable product.

Even with the immense amount of football smarts on TBB, there really is no way for any of us to really to have anything more than an educated guess.

What bothers me most, is that the Browns team really doesn't have a list of things that it does well. What can we point to that can be counted on as core strengths that the new guys can take and build upon?

For the life of me I sure as fuck don't know. 

Pessimistic or optimistic, whether we want to admit it or not, we're all Homer's.

We deserve to be homers. Somewhere, some how, eventually someone is going to bring a spark to this team.

I hope Watson is the new Terry Bradshaw/Favre/insert your guy.

If I'm not here next opening day kickoff, at least I mingled with the best.

Enjoy the SB. 

We run the ball pretty damn well.  6th in League in total yards and 6th in TDs.  That’s Pretty significant when we played from behind more often than not and had a backup QB and Starting QB feeling things out this past year (we knew the loaded boxes were coming).  You can certainly build an offense around that.  We seem to plug and play anyone on this line and the coach is back with a new contract  and I’ll maintain we have the best running back in the NFL. 
 

I tend to think we have three really good man coverage guys that will respond even better to a new coordinator.  Most NFL teams are looking for two…we have three.

[calfoxwc]

further to the point - like the Browns drafting Josh Gordon. but he loved weed.

He did not care.

Reminds me of what happened to Ricky Williams back in the day.

https://www.thepostgame.com/ricky-williams-admits-ditching-nfl-smoke-weed

then, in 2021 -

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ranking-greatest-super-bowl-qbs-no-1-no-surprise-patriots-slayer-eli-manning-earns-spot-on-all-time-list/

*********************************************

    guys who do not care, and have no work ethic... do not pan out, regardless of their talent.

[mjp28]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

We hear a lot about the Coordinators when things go wrong, which is justified a lot of the time.  However, when it comes to a GM/Personnel Gran Pooh-bah - we have to wait 3 years before we can fairly judge their drafts.  If some of those guys don't pan out - this is when a Coordinator sometimes gets too much of the credit for the bad unfolding.

....... AND  ◆   When I lived in Western NY back when the Bills went to 4 consecutive Super Bowls, their scouts used to go as far as interviewing high school teachers and coaches about the character, work ethic and communication skills of the prospects they were interested in. Bill Polian was their GM; and he had a knack for finding a lot of small school and late round gems.  That's how they found a Steve Tasker or an Andre Reed from D3 Kutztown State, Don Beebe from D2 Chadron State, Pete Metzlaars from D3 Wabash College or a Mark Kelso from William and Mary or Jeff Wright from Central Missouri State or a Phil Hansen from North Dakota State. All those guys played significant roles for their Super Bowl Teams.   I don't get the sense they were putting on blindfolds and playing pin the tail on the donkey with these picks. They were drafting guys they knew that would be worth investing the time and energy into developing. Not just spreadsheet bullshit - but scouts that went to work researching what their GM/FO and Owner felt was important.  I can only help we have the right FO for this very important draft/off season....

If you made it this far, thanks for your patience!  

 

Oh yes again something that I believe in whether it's sports or business or life in general  character,  work ethic, communication skills. things that I think are very important and absolutely missing in many people in this era.

Every  time that I talk with small business owners they say the same things they just can NOT find good dependable workers with an ounce of work ethic regardless of the money that you throw at them.  The younger generation have no work ethic, they are not dependable sometimes they just quit and walk away.  Not an ounce of character sometimes they don't even tell you they are quitting they just don't show up.

Local Wendy's and pizza shops are in a bind, they're offering $20, $22/hour and they still can't get good dependable help.  A great ma & pa pizza shop The Elmton Pizza shop wants to open a restaurant downtown but have to start with limited hours - - not enough help.

The last three landscaping business owners that I talked to said the same thing if they offer $15/hour the kids want $20 or the equivalent of $40,000+/year to do relatively easy entry level work.  The owners bid jobs, get them and then no help shows up !   Disgusting behavior.   We've had that happen to us we've been waiting over two years to finish our rather simple work ...... not done.   

I'm older now we or our fathers never behaved like this it's just deplorable absolutely no work ethic period.

Edited February 4, 2023 by mjp28

[Flugel]

2 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

We run the ball pretty damn well.  6th in League in total yards and 6th in TDs.  That’s Pretty significant when we played from behind more often than not and had a backup QB and Starting QB feeling things out this past year (we knew the loaded boxes were coming).  You can certainly build an offense around that.  We seem to plug and play anyone on this line and the coach is back with a new contract  and I’ll maintain we have the best running back in the NFL. 
 

I tend to think we have three really good man coverage guys that will respond even better to a new coordinator.  Most NFL teams are looking for two…we have three.

You are correct about the running game and our corners SdB!  I think our Secondary will be fine this year especially if they replace John Johnson.  1 guy (Grant Delpit) I was really critical of in the 1st half of the season was the most improved player in the 2nd half of the season IMO.  Still made some mistakes and occasionally missed some tackles with his head down; but WAY less frequently.  He began to show us his nose for the ball that made him the Jim Thorpe Award winner as a Junior in 2019 and a 2 time Consensus All American.   We'll get our LBers back healthy; and use JOK the way many of us envisioned.  Last but not least, the IDL has to be a priority.  I don't mind us waiting until later in the draft to select a Corner; because Denzel Ward has some durability concerns.  We can add a Safety either via the draft or free agency.  

Offensively, it wouldn't hurt to add a TE, WR, Tackle and Center (unless the bigger cap helps us get Pocic re-signed)

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

3 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

We run the ball pretty damn well.  6th in League in total yards and 6th in TDs.  That’s Pretty significant when we played from behind more often than not and had a backup QB and Starting QB feeling things out this past year (we knew the loaded boxes were coming).  You can certainly build an offense around that.  We seem to plug and play anyone on this line and the coach is back with a new contract  and I’ll maintain we have the best running back in the NFL. 
 

I tend to think we have three really good man coverage guys that will respond even better to a new coordinator.  Most NFL teams are looking for two…we have three.

We run the ball well in the second half, not so impressive in the first half.

[syd]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

(unless the bigger cap helps us get Pocic re-signed)

just because im lazy but wasn't he are 4th stringer at center ?

[Korsou Dawg]

18 hours ago, Flugel said:

Are we good enough to draft a lazy pass protector that played RT in college as our Left Tackle (and blindside pass protector) at #10 overall in round 1 because we have the one of the best Offensive Line Coaches in the league + an Assistant?  He didn't play well at all this year; so do we need to fire the OL Coach or the Coordinator? Or do we realize the FO didn't fill a very important need/position when and where we were positioned to do so in the 1st round?  Some might say, the flexibility to just move him to RT if he fails is a good thing.  I can only give that a maybe at best; especially since our FO just extended Jack Conklin's contract at RT for a lot of cake.  Not only that, James Hudson continues to improve because of a good work ethic I'm not seeing at all from Wills.  He might already be a better RT than Wills at a much cap friendlier price. Should we change our entire offense to accommodate the limitations of Wills?   Truth be told, he's the guy we're square pegging into a very important position that'll cause us to use a TE to help him with the edge rush or a RB to chip him.  This liability, impacts the numbers we can attack a pass coverage with. On the surface, the Coaches and Coordinators will get blamed for him; but I'm going to give the FO the credit they deserve for this.  The time to find out he's lazy and unmotivated isn't when he's starting at Left Tackle 3 years into things.  To accommodate his limitations, we almost have to downshift into a much less desirable pass game that is almost exclusively short drop-quick throws on passes we don't have to tie up receivers helping Wills. 

 

Speaking from the disappointment he has been on the field, I am ready to move on from Willis. Just wondering what the play is. He has one year left on his contract, and as you say, there is probably more value in re-signing a guy like Hudson. However, benching Jedrick for his last year is not exactly going to make him more motivated, is it? I suppose you could try and trade him for a late rounder, but I doubt there will be much of a market there. All things considered, cutting him before the season is becoming a serious option IMO. 

[Flugel]

14 hours ago, syd said:

just because im lazy but wasn't he are 4th stringer at center ?

😆 No worries.   If you want to go by the depth chart before the preseason games, he wasn't the starter.  If you want to go by what he did every time he suited up on game day - he was the starter that pleasantly surprised a lot of people.

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Speaking from the disappointment he has been on the field, I am ready to move on from Willis. Just wondering what the play is. He has one year left on his contract, and as you say, there is probably more value in re-signing a guy like Hudson. However, benching Jedrick for his last year is not exactly going to make him more motivated, is it? I suppose you could try and trade him for a late rounder, but I doubt there will be much of a market there. All things considered, cutting him before the season is becoming a serious option IMO. 

I hear ya.  It just sucks that left tackle is a need considering how high Dorsey drafted the guy.  He couldn't have a better Offensive Line Coach so I'm ruling out it's a coaching issue.  By the time we draft in round 2, the run on the elite left tackles will be done.  The good news with the IDL/DT position being such a big need is that round 2 will have us in ideal position to draft an elite DT.   

Looking at priorities, we need to find starters at Left Tackle and 2 Defensive Tackle positions.  I'm also not sure what we will be doing at Center since every one of them got hurt last year, including Pocic for a few weeks.  Drafting OL/DT guys slotted for the developmental rounds probably isn't advisable this draft.  Free agency is an option but cap health counts on good drafting. This leads me to ask the question - is this FO any good at drafting offensive or defensive linemen?  Are they always drafting DBs early because they're not confident in their ability to draft linemen on either side of the ball?  Or, is it a little bit of that plus a need to upgrade previous starters?

Other areas that need attention IMO are TE, Safety, LBer.  I don't mind adding depth at corner later in rounds 6, 7 and undrafted free agency. I think our depth there is decent.  All this said, I'm just a fan so I'm going by pressing needs first in lieu of drafting best prospect available (bpa).  If we went the bpa route when we already had Joe Thomas - how much sense would it have made if we drafted another LT in upper round 1 just 1-2 years after drafting Joe Thomas?   We can do a little bit of both by addressing pressing needs earlier and bpa in rounds 4-7...

The teams that consistently win in the AFC North don't do it by accident.  They have a better FO than us.  THAT is where we need to start consistently beating the teams in our division.     

[tiamat63]

Might as well use this as the thread to jump on a few topics:

 

- Cap space and Johnny J.  I get some of his frustration this season and at times when he appeared to be giving up plays, especially in the running game.   The one in particular that made it's rounds was against the Ravens.   Frustration boiling over at the Browns LB's, namely JOK in that instance, filling the wrong gap and not spilling the play as a stretch to the safety.  Spill & Kill to be clear.   No 200lb safety wants to take on a RB with a full head of stream at the playside B gap.    I've seen a lot of people debate if the LB's or the IDL was the problem this year.  Truth be told, it was both.   Of course, when it comes to chicken or the egg, I tend to side with the chicken being the problems starting up front in the trenches.    If JJ3 is a post June cap cut, replacing him won't be easy.    Grant Delpit struggled taking on expanded roles this season.  So, just like with Togiai and Jordan Elliot, the front office is putting far too much stock with little early investment return which might end up hurting this secondary next year barring massive jump in play.  His 2nd half "improvement" was a combination of facing offensively (QB) limited teams and him returning to a bit of reduced role.    The 2 picks against WSH were nice, don't get me wrong.  But they're the type of plays that really look like fools gold if you pop on the All-22.      I'm not sure what contract escalators Grant has for INT's, but he can send Wentz a bottle of champagne for likely getting to that mark.

 

- Needing "elite" players.   We don't.  Not at LT, and not on the IDL.    To put it in perspective, if the Browns had league average IDL play, they likely win 2 more games.   ATL and G1 against Baltimore (toss in one busted coverage by Delpit for a huge 3rd and 14 conversion)

 

- Jed Wills.   the first from Coach Callahan himself.  

*Callahan said of Wills. “We’re trying some different things with him in terms of pass protection. We’re trying to get him to feel comfortable not only with his set, but with different types of hand usage that we’re trying to employ.*

 

And another follow up to that.  

 

* “I think Jed was smart with going with Joe and not me,” Teller said. “Jed was fighting through a lot of injuries last year. I think him working with Joe, working hard this offseason, is only going to help him. He’s got it. He’s understanding that. He’s putting his best foot forward, and I’m thankful for that.*

 

That's a pro-bowl guard in Teller, saying that Jed actively sought to work with Joe Thomas.   And not only working with JT, but working hard by his judgement.   

Is Jed "lazy"...?  No.  And nothing I've found on film would imply that either.   So to say as much is a casual and uneducated dismissal of the real challenges our young LT is facing.   In short, if anyone feels Jed is lazy, then you're incorrect with his own teammates who have put their names to record saying otherwise.  Not "random sources".   

 Has he played like a top 10 lock? No.   But there are things he struggled with this season he hadn't previously.  I've gone back, all the way to week 1, to try to understand 'why?'.    And I found some things between his footwork and hand usage.   The first quote from Callahan supports what I've found.  His hand strike technique and timing is looking different than last season.  Not different in a bad way, but different in an unnatural way (for him, that is)   I can't speak enough to the kinetics of playing one side of the line your whole career, then moving to the other side as a professional.  It's an incredibly difficult transition to make, but not only that, to play at a high level.  If Jed was a 2nd round pick, this conversation probably wouldn't be happening.   His grade is slightly above league average.  Sure, not something to hang your hat on, but he isn't bottom run in the NFL by a long shot.   Not unlike our IDL having the 2 single worst graded players in all of professional football.

 The footwork I mention, Jed's kick step is no where near as smooth or natural as Joe's was.  Sure, saying his isn't as great as a 1st ballot HoF'er isn't fair in the least.  But I mean natural as in how you would see someone who has played LT their entire high school, collegiate and pro career.    To give a better parallel, in golf you're visualizing your shot, club selection, ball lie and elements.  So when you step to hit, after a couple practice swings, you aren't thinking about your club grip, you aren't thinking about your foot placement, stance or shoulders.   Those all come after hundreds of hours and thousands of hits to make them kinesthetically "second nature".  

 Which brings me around to the crux of my point.  It's pretty clear that Jed's footwork, and the additional of attempting to increase the arsenal of hand technique, has him "thinking" more than actually doing.  As a result he can find himself in a great deal of trouble that he never actually had to be in the first place.   I mentioned early on his distrust of his own athletic ability after the LT switch.   A distrust which found him oversetting against speed to the edge, for us to commonly find him being beaten back to his inside shoulder.    Going back and watching him at Bama on the right side, this wasn't an issue I found in the half dozen games I watched.   Truth be told, he may never become an elite LT because of that.  Or at least, he may never be as as strong a blindside tackle as he was on the right side.    Speaks to how tough the transition is and how seemingly insurmountable it can be to make the transition from R---> L even with a couple years practice.   

 You might be able to write left handed, but if you were forced to write with the right hand I'm sure it might be legible, but that doesn't mean it'll ever be as good or 2nd natured as your dominantly kinetic writing hand was.  And when you're writing,  or typing as I am now, I'm not thinking about my hand placement or keystrokes, I'm in my head translating thoughts to digital paper like any writer.   The actual process of thoughts --> keyboard--> requires little to no effort for that 2nd stage.  I think and I type while maintaining the focus on the next word ahead. I've done this so much it has become a 2nd nature process and muscle memory for so many others.       And that processing: resource stage is where Jed is finding himself struggling IMHO.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ballpeen]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

I hear ya.  It just sucks that left tackle is a need considering how high Dorsey drafted the guy.  He couldn't have a better Offensive Line Coach so I'm ruling out it's a coaching issue.  By the time we draft in round 2, the run on the elite left tackles will be done.  The good news with the IDL/DT position being such a big need is that round 2 will have us in ideal position to draft an elite DT.   

Looking at priorities, we need to find starters at Left Tackle and 2 Defensive Tackle positions.  I'm also not sure what we will be doing at Center since every one of them got hurt last year, including Pocic for a few weeks.  Drafting OL/DT guys slotted for the developmental rounds probably isn't advisable this draft.  Free agency is an option but cap health counts on good drafting. This leads me to ask the question - is this FO any good at drafting offensive or defensive linemen?  Are they always drafting DBs early because they're not confident in their ability to draft linemen on either side of the ball?  Or, is it a little bit of that plus a need to upgrade previous starters?

Other areas that need attention IMO are TE, Safety, LBer.  I don't mind adding depth at corner later in rounds 6, 7 and undrafted free agency. I think our depth there is decent.  All this said, I'm just a fan so I'm going by pressing needs first in lieu of drafting best prospect available (bpa).  If we went the bpa route when we already had Joe Thomas - how much sense would it have made if we drafted another LT in upper round 1 just 1-2 years after drafting Joe Thomas?   We can do a little bit of both by addressing pressing needs earlier and bpa in rounds 4-7...

The teams that consistently win in the AFC North don't do it by accident.  They have a better FO than us.  THAT is where we need to start consistently beating the teams in our division.     

I don't know about elite DT's being available in round 2.  How about we hope for good?  Carter and Breese are elite, and they will going inside the top 5-6 picks.  This DT class isn't the deepest.  Mazi Smith might be there, but he is more a NT type player.

[Flugel]

7 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

I don't know about elite DT's being available in round 2.  How about we hope for good?  Carter and Breese are elite, and they will going inside the top 5-6 picks.  This DT class isn't the deepest.  Mazi Smith might be there, but he is more a NT type player.

Elite is looking like it was a bad term for me to use especially for round 2.  IMO, the following position groups tend to have more 1st round selections than DTs or RBs in no particular order here: QB, Edge Rusher, Left Tackle, Wide Receiver, Cornerbacks, Safeties, LBers. 

If that trend continues this year, the Browns could have a great shot at landing a very good DT prospect at #43 overall.   1 thing that could challenge this would be an early run on the IDL/DT group if teams share your point about how deep the position group is.  

 

[Orion]

11 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Is Jed "lazy"...?  No.  And nothing I've found on film would imply that either.

What are you watching, cartoons?  

We'd seen it all season long. We made comments during games.  I made a joke once that it's in his contract, 'I block for 3.5 second per play'.  Then he stops.  He doesn't even turn around to see where the play's at.  Like if he might be needed elsewhere.  Nope, he's punched the clock.  3.5 second clock starts again at the next snap.  

I'm glad he's gonna work with JT.  Joe could pass block anybody.

[Korsou Dawg]

@tiamat63 You give plenty of reasons why Jed is struggling, and also state "how seemingly insurmountable it can be to make the transition from R---> L." Let's put that in a practical roster building perspective for this off-season. He is in the final year of a fairly lucrative rookie contract, and he may never blossom into our desired LT. What do you do with him?

I doubt there is much of a trade market for him out there. Let him play out the rest of the season, and potentially let him walk at the end. Or cut him before the season, and free up much-needed cap space.

[Korsou Dawg]

17 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I don't know about elite DT's being available in round 2.  How about we hope for good?  Carter and Breese are elite, and they will going inside the top 5-6 picks.  This DT class isn't the deepest.  Mazi Smith might be there, but he is more a NT type player.

FWIW

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2023/02/05/browns-land-mazi-smith-2023-nfl-mock-draft-2/

[tiamat63]

28 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

@tiamat63 What do you do with him?

Let him play out the rest of the season.

 This. His rookie pay isn't so back-breaking that we NEED to clear his cap. And Hudson isn't an option that is head and shoulders above him. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Orion said:

What are you watching, cartoons?  

 

 I could show you a dozen plays where he was beaten from questionable footwork which lead to bad balance.  Then to recover, Jed ends up playing matador with the rusher and it's not a good look.   There were also a couple times he was beaten on missed blocking assignments in certain protections. Next thing you know he's looking around for work instead of moving.   If you, or anyone else for that matter, wants to see what I find firsthand, you're welcome to join me on TBB discord.  

 

 But don't ever insult me by saying some dumb shit like that again.   

 

Edit: and if you want to watch anything from the first 8 seasons of Family Guy, I'm down for that 😘

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

FWIW

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2023/02/05/browns-land-mazi-smith-2023-nfl-mock-draft-2/

Thanks, I hadn't seen that but I have looked at enough player rankings and done a few mocks and he should be available around our draft position. At least as things stand now.  Who knows what happens over the next few months.

 

As much as I would like to draft a DT, I am not sure the value will be there. I don't think we should or will be going in to this draft with needs as the primary  concern.  Without a 1st rounder this year and next, it's really important we get a few good players a draft who can become starters or we are going to have a talent void in a few years as guys like Bitonio, Chubb, etc are riding out the string or no longer on the team