Wide Receiver

[Orion]

He's a smurf.  (an Elf, since he's a Brown now).  5' 10"  179 lb.     56%  catch percentage.   I don't see him as being 'the answer'.   (Elijah, the savior)

...and now our first pick is in total crap-shoot land.  3rd round.    But...at least they're attacking the spots that we all hoped they would.  Be good Elijah, we need ya to be good.

[SdBacker80]

26 minutes ago, Orion said:

He's a smurf.  (an Elf, since he's a Brown now).  5' 10"  179 lb.     56%  catch percentage.   I don't see him as being 'the answer'.   (Elijah, the savior)

...and now our first pick is in total crap-shoot land.  3rd round.    But...at least they're attacking the spots that we all hoped they would.  Be good Elijah, we need ya to be good.

We aren’t asking him to be the answer.  Just eat up the 2nd and 3rd best corners and be a decoy at times and stretch the field. 
 

i don’t like the negative attitude he had last year though 

[ballpeen]

 

[Flugel]

9 hours ago, Orion said:

He's a smurf.  (an Elf, since he's a Brown now).  5' 10"  179 lb.     56%  catch percentage.   I don't see him as being 'the answer'.   (Elijah, the savior)

...and now our first pick is in total crap-shoot land.  3rd round.    But...at least they're attacking the spots that we all hoped they would.  Be good Elijah, we need ya to be good.

Agreed.   Berry got a Dollar Store band aid and a Walmart Cola for the price of a 2nd round pick.   Who would do such a thing?  Oh yeah, the guy that reached way up in to round 3 for a WR like Anthony Schwartz.  This will be our 2nd year in a row of entering the draft in round 3.  Last year, Berry started the draft with a corner who was impressive enough to have Berry's 1st round Corner (Newsome) eventually reduced to covering the slot. 

One thing written about the selection of Elijah Moore coming out of Mississippi before his rookie year was "he never played with an elite QB."  This will be one of the excuses why he was a backup Slot Receiver in NY.  Garrett Wilson, who DID play with an elite QB or 2 in college - played pretty well as a rookie WR for the Jets in spite of their QB situation. 

When your favorite team doesn't have a GM that is very good or confident in his ability to draft anything beyond Cornerbacks - you're paying more for temporary band aids previously drafted by other teams for positions that have been neglected here. 

Is this what we're reduced to doing every year?  Rooting for free agent moves or trades like this - because we have a FO incapable of competing in the draft?  We got a BACKUP Slot Receiver for the 42nd overall pick.  I'm just frustrated; but I see we have people popping champagne about this trade in another thread.  Let's hope he's everything our fans want him to be.  

Edited March 23, 2023 by Flugel

[Unsympathetic]

I don't see downside to this move.  He's better than the current WR3 and WR4 on the roster, and he's better than any WR who would have been available if we'd used the "entire" second-round pick on a WR.  Moore played 30% of his snaps [scroll down, right outside+left outside] last season outside - he can be WR2 as well.

Sure, he's not "The Savior" - because no savior exists.  The roster is improved only small-move-by-small-move.

Bell was our WR3 last season based on snaps -- and even if the same 3 plus Moore rotate, the fact that Moore is better at achieving separation will generate better results for all the WR's because now you can't ignore our WR3.. or shut him down with a backup linebacker.

Fun fact: DPJ lined up more in the slot last season [same link above] than he did outside.  Is he "A Slot Receiver?" No - Like Moore, he's a receiver. They line up wherever they're asked..

[ballpeen]

Moore is good.  Some people just don't know it.

 

He is exactly the type of receiver Watson needs.  He needs a quick guy who can adjust on the fly.  Watson breaks the pocket a lot and needs a receiver who recognizes that and adjusts to the new play in progress.

[Orion]

7 hours ago, ballpeen said:

He is exactly the type of receiver Watson needs.  He needs a quick guy who can adjust on the fly.

A Landry...Welker.  If that's what he is, then good.  We need one.  I had hoped Bell would be that guy, but he didn't look like it.  

Moore's 56% catch rate could, in theory be from bad QB play.  It's what they want us to believe...so, hopefully that's the case.  Me, I'm back to hoping that my 6' 4" Weston turns out to be a player.

10 hours ago, Flugel said:

reached way up in to round 3 for a WR like Anthony Schwartz

They want a burner.  It's been reported that we have one of the slowest WR groups.  - Weston's not slow.  C'mon Weston!

[Dutch Oven]

10 hours ago, Flugel said:

Is this what we're reduced to doing every year?  Rooting for free agent moves or trades like this - because we have a FO incapable of competing in the draft?  We got a BACKUP Slot Receiver for the 42nd overall pick.  I'm just frustrated; but I see we have people popping champagne about this trade in another thread.  Let's hope he's everything our fans want him to be.  

This is what happens when you have a front office that knows they are probably one more missed playoff year from getting shitcanned. (And why I've been predicting a remaining highish pick being traded for a vet player instead of being used on a draft pick. At least with this one, they just dropped down, but still....)

We've seen this movie before. Butch Davis made win-now moves that killed this franchise for years. Phil Savage traded away a draft class trying to get over the hump after the near-miss of 2007.

[tiamat63]

Most of the way through all of Moore's snaps week 1 and 2.  

Explosive and strong off the snap. 

When he's on ball (los) either outside or in, he does a good job with his hands to avoid DBs getting clean contact on their bumps/jams. 

Great feel for zone expansion.  Really knows how to be a presentable target and when/where to throttle his routes. 

Strong hands and good catch radius outside his frame for only being 5'10.  

His short area burst is elite.   His downfield speed is a different story.  The definition of ' quicker than fast'.  

 

 I mentioned the Ravens have Kyle Hamilton and they like to use him as their nickel DB. I've also pointed out that the Browns need structure and personnel to improve their horizontal/intermediate passing game.  Moore appears to be a piece in taking that step forward.  You may ask why I mention Hamilton specifically?  His weakness is defending lateral explosion, the horizontal passing game.  A couple times the Browns got Cooper on him with great results, but the next defensive adjustment from BLT meant that we're going to have to rely on DPJ and Bell more.   Elijah helps stay ahead of that adjustment but making him the matchup against the overhang DB (Hamilton) while allowing us to continue to move Coop and Njoku around the formation.  

 It's not a 'savior' move as much as it's a move about getting a certain type of body this front office and coaching staff feel they can coach into a blooming season in coordination with Watson.   

 Mahomes' has Kelce, the Y option and the various post-snap route adjustments he makes when they're both on the same page and reading the same coverages (plus the scramble drill) 

 Watson will now have Moore and Z/H choice and the various post-snap coverage adjustments they can develop a go-to chemistry with.   But instead of having a 6.5 TE who runs a 4.6, we have a 5'10 WR who runs a 4.3. 

 This trade isn't sexy, but it can be VERY  effective if Moore is getting 85 targets, 60 catches and making a high proportion of those 1st down snags. 

 So many of you older guys rave about Brian Brennan being such an underrated but key cog of the 80s Browns offenses with Bernie, I'm shocked to see those same guys be dismissive of a potentially similar combination here. 

 

Edit:.  Moore 2021 7.0 YPT 

           Moore 2022 6.9 YPT 

 

      WW 2010 6.9 YPT 

      WW 2013 7.0 YPT 

Who is WW?  That's Wes Welker. More specifically, Wes when he was the 3rd target behind Gronk & Hernandez.   And the 3rd target behind Demarius Thomas and Eric Decker. 

 That's the role Moore has been brought in to fill.  To compete being 3rd in targets, and to bring a skill set our other receivers simply don't have - short area burner. 

 

 

 

 

 

[syd]

12 hours ago, Flugel said:

I'm just frustrated; but I see we have people popping champagne about this trade in another thread.

and at 42 which wr would you have drafted ?

[Flugel]

59 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

This is what happens when you have a front office that knows they are probably one more missed playoff year from getting shitcanned. (And why I've been predicting a remaining highish pick being traded for a vet player instead of being used on a draft pick. At least with this one, they just dropped down, but still....)

We've seen this movie before. Butch Davis made win-now moves that killed this franchise for years. Phil Savage traded away a draft class trying to get over the hump after the near-miss of 2007.

Will you STOP making so much sense?  Knock it off!   

It's hard to get pumped up about a 2nd consecutive draft not starting until round 3.  I wasted so much time last week posting all the prospects at different positions we have a shot at drafting at #42 overall (that could be an immediate impact).   Hope my gut is wrong about the latest knee-jerk.

  

[mjp28]

22 hours ago, Orion said:

He's a smurf.  (an Elf, since he's a Brown now).  5' 10"  179 lb.     56%  catch percentage.   I don't see him as being 'the answer'.   (Elijah, the savior)

...and now our first pick is in total crap-shoot land.  3rd round.    But...at least they're attacking the spots that we all hoped they would.  Be good Elijah, we need ya to be good.

Just curious remember Brian Brennan 5' 9" 178 ?  Career 59.4%.  (Kosar years.)  Great possession receiver kind of in that class.

[Dutch Oven]

15 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Will you STOP making so much sense?  Knock it off!   

It's hard to get pumped up about a 2nd consecutive draft not starting until round 3.  I wasted so much time last week posting all the prospects at different positions we have a shot at drafting at #42 overall (that could be an immediate impact).   Hope my gut is wrong about the latest knee-jerk.

  

Now here's a legit question for you:

Are you upset because you are genuinely upset in the direction the Browns are going, or are you upset because you really look forward to the Draft and once again the air is let out of your Browns Draft Balloon? Or both? (I understand how one could be both)

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, syd said:

and at 42 which wr would you have drafted ?

First, who says I wanted a WR at #42? I was actually getting excited that it looked like we were suddenly equipped to go BPA. However, I have to say I think we can do better than a guy the Jets felt compelled to demote already in just his 2nd season and willing to trade 1 year later.  His teammate Garrett Wilson didn't need the bad QB excuse; and he was just a rookie fwiw.

Second, I don't know any more about the draft than the next guy in here.  I'm just venting about something our FO just did. Venting isn't all that uncommon to do when the Browns are in last place again.  The thought of not drafting before round 3 for a second consecutive year concerns me.  

Anyway, there's a few WRs projecting for round 3 I could get excited about like Penn State's Parker Washington, Princeton's Andrei Josivas, and Iowa State's Xavier Hutchinson. I provided highlights of each and other WRs in page 10 of the 2023 Browns NFL Draft Prospects thread after Gumby posted about BC's Zay Flowers.  However, someone else started this really good WR thread very shortly after so a lot of people never saw all the WR stuff I put in that other thread.  

Since the Browns signed a lot of pressing needs last week I felt like we had an ideal opportunity to go with BPA at #42 overall. Therefore, I also started an ILBer thread and a Offensive/Left Tackle thread covering guys projected for rounds 2 and 3 by a Draft Magazine.  Each LBer had about 4-6 minutes of highlights included.  The tackles had highlights too but not quite as long.  To post that stuff should show I didn't have my heart set on WR at #42.   

 

 

 

[syd]

15 minutes ago, Flugel said:

I was actually getting excited that it looked like we were suddenly equipped to go BPA.

ya and we got moore I dunno what  to tell ya but i think we are better off

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Now here's a legit question for you:

Are you upset because you are genuinely upset in the direction the Browns are going, or are you upset because you really look forward to the Draft and once again the air is let out of your Browns Draft Balloon? Or both? (I understand how one could be both)

I'll preface my answer with saying the reason the Browns have the most last place finishes in their division since they returned to the NFL is because they've done the worst in the draft.  Free agency and crack-pipe trades has never been the magical catch-up tool.   That said, did I tell you if you watch the first Rocky movie 24 times that he finally wins the 24th time you watch it?  

My answer is both.  

[gumby73]

11 hours ago, Flugel said:

 by a Lindys Draft Magazine. 

11 hours ago, Flugel said:

they've done the worst in the draft. 

Free agency and crack-pipe trades has never been the magical catch-up tool.   

My answer is both.  

 

Cleveland Browns

 

@Browns

In finalizing the Trade of Elijah Moore to the Browns..

The Browns have sent a $25.00 refund check to Fugel's of the Browns Board to pay for a Linsey Draft Magazine.. 

In the future.. Don't make us go to the extremes of paying these overpaid crack pipe players 😁

 

Happy 🏈 Friday !  

 

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, gumby73 said:

 

Cleveland Browns

 

@Browns

In finalizing the Trade of Elijah Moore to the Browns..

The Browns have sent a $25.00 refund check to Fugel's of the Browns Board to pay for a Linsey Draft Magazine.. 

In the future.. Don't make us go to the extremes of paying these overpaid crack pipe players 😁

 

Happy 🏈 Friday !  

 

You sick bastard!  After the Diet Pepsi in my mouth went through my nose - I hit the deck LMAO.  Thanks for the 2 minute abs Gumbs!

[syd]

Marquise Goodwin signed with us, nice depth as a 4 or 5

side note: Buckeyes are beating Harvard 6-0 and should move on to The Frozen Four

[SdBacker80]

Goodwin aboard too.  Love it.  
 

Cooper, DPJ, Moore, Bell, Goodwin plenty of Reliable insurance policies if someone goes down.

Now let’s close the chapter on Schwartz…he’s just not a football player at this level. 

[syd]

7 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Now let’s close the chapter on Schwartz…he’s just not a football player at this level.

i know time to say bye-bye to bad tho i was rooting for him

[gumby73]

2 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Goodwin aboard too.  Love it.  
 

Nice !

I thought that kicked tire went flat after the Moore trade.

Schwartz/ Bell & Woods at camp, fights for a roster spot or practice squad bubble.

adding Bill Musgrave's to AVP with Stef calling plays... We'd hope to see the 2020 Deshaun Watson play like it 

 

[tiamat63]

37 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

Nice !

I thought that kicked tire went flat after the Moore trade.

Schwartz/ Bell & Woods at camp, fights for a roster spot or practice squad bubble.

adding Bill Musgrave's to AVP with Stef calling plays... We'd hope to see the 2020 Deshaun Watson play like it 

 

Bell isn't fighting for a roster spot, barring disaster. 

Schwartz and Woods are, dependent on special teams play. 

[gumby73]

24 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Bell isn't fighting for a roster spot, barring disaster. 

Schwartz and Woods are, dependent on special teams play. 

Correct..

Better worded would be playing snaps.. Bell & Schwartz both had 70.. Woods was right there with them at 67 last season.. staying tuned

[Flugel]

23 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Just curious remember Brian Brennan 5' 9" 178 ?  Career 59.4%.  (Kosar years.)  Great possession receiver kind of in that class.

Thanks for bringing him up.  Loved Brian Brennan.  He led our 12-4 team in 86 with 55 receptions playing almost exclusively on 3rd downs.  The OTHER guy that came up big on 3rd downs was RB Herman Fontenot with 47 receptions. On a team that had talents like Mack, Byner and Slaughter - the blue collar work of Brennan and Fontenot kept a lot of drives alive with their clutch performances within their situational roles.  

[Orion]

Goodwin  (don't know why the yellow highlight)

Position: WR  5-9, 180lb (175cm, 81kg)     - another Elf (smurf).    C'mon Weston...be good!

 

					Games		Receiving											Rushing								Total Yds
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	1D	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Y/Tgt	Rush	Yds	TD	1D	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb	AV
Career					102	44	362	187	3023	16.2	18	141	84	1.8	29.6	51.7%	8.4	19	93	0	6	18	4.9	0.9	0.2	206	15.1	3116	18	4	26
4 yrs		BUF			39	10	111	49	780	15.9	6	36	84	1.3	20.0	44.1%	7.0	6	21	0	2	17	3.5	0.5	0.2	55	14.6	801	6	2	6
3 yrs		SFO			36	30	169	91	1543	17.0	7	75	83	2.5	42.9	53.8%	9.1	9	68	0	4	18	7.6	1.9	0.3	100	16.1	1611	7	1	13
1 yr		CHI			14	2	40	20	313	15.7	1	12	50	1.4	22.4	50.0%	7.8	2	-1	0	0	1	-0.5	-0.1	0.1	22	14.2	312	1	1	3
1 yr		SEA			13	2	42	27	387	14.3	4	18	38	2.1	29.8	64.3%	9.2	2	5	0	0	7	2.5	0.4	0.2	29	13.5	392	4		4
2013	23	BUF	WR	88	12	1	32	17	283	16.6	3	13	59	1.4	23.6	53.1%	8.8	3	13	0	1	17	4.3	1.1	0.3	20	14.8	296	3	1	2
2014	24	BUF	WR	88	10	0	9	1	42	42.0	0	1	42	0.1	4.2	11.1%	4.7	3	8	0	1	12	2.7	0.8	0.3	4	12.5	50	0	1	0
2015	25	BUF	WR	88	2	0	2	2	24	12.0	0	2	14	1.0	12.0	100.0%	12.0			0						2	12.0	24	0	0	0
2016	26	BUF	WR	88	15	9	68	29	431	14.9	3	20	84	1.9	28.7	42.6%	6.3			0						29	14.9	431	3	0	4
2017	27	SFO	WR	11	16	16	105	56	962	17.2	2	46	83	3.5	60.1	53.3%	9.2	4	44	0	3	18	11.0	2.8	0.3	60	16.8	1006	2	0	8
2018	28	SFO	WR	11	11	8	43	23	395	17.2	4	19	67	2.1	35.9	53.5%	9.2	4	9	0	0	5	2.3	0.8	0.4	27	15.0	404	4	1	3
2019	29	SFO	WR	11	9	6	21	12	186	15.5	1	10	38	1.3	20.7	57.1%	8.9	1	15	0	1	15	15.0	1.7	0.1	13	15.5	201	1	0	2
2021	31	CHI	WR	84	14	2	40	20	313	15.7	1	12	50	1.4	22.4	50.0%	7.8	2	-1	0	0	1	-0.5	-0.1	0.1	22	14.2	312	1	1	3
2022	32	SEA	WR	11	13	2	42	27	387	14.3	4	18	38	2.1	29.8	64.3%	9.2	2	5	0	0	7	2.5	0.4	0.2	29	13.5	392	4	0	4

[mjp28]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

Thanks for bringing him up.  Loved Brian Brennan.  He led our 12-4 team in 86 with 55 receptions playing almost exclusively on 3rd downs.  The OTHER guy that came up big on 3rd downs was RB Herman Fontenot with 47 receptions. On a team that had talents like Mack, Byner and Slaughter - the blue collar work of Brennan and Fontenot kept a lot of drives alive with their clutch performances within their situational roles.  

Thanks flug,

When they were talking about these WRs I thought about #86 Brian Brennan during the Cleveland BROWNS  glory years with Boardman native and the "U" National Champion Bernie Kosar.  And 1986 was Brian Brennan's best year as a BROWNS player,  plus a great guy whenever you needed a 3rd down conversion made.  Not flashy but very reliable and his stats :

Games		Receiving										Rushing							Total Yds
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Y/Tgt	Rush	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb	AV
Career					132	27	32	334	4336	13.0	20	57	2.5	32.8	59.4%	5.9			0					334	13.0	4336	20	9	41
8 yrs		CLE			117	27		315	4148	13.2	19	57	2.7	35.5	0%				0					315	13.2	4148	19	9	39
1 yr		CIN			9	0	26	16	166	10.4	1	21	1.8	18.4	61.5%	6.4			0					16	10.4	166	1		2
1 yr		SDG			6	0	6	3	22	7.3	0	12	0.5	3.7	50.0%	3.7			0					3	7.3	22	0		0
1984	22	CLE	WR	86	15	5		35	455	13.0	3	52	2.3	30.3					0					35	13.0	455	3	1	4
1985	23	CLE	WR	86	12	10		32	487	15.2	0	57	2.7	40.6					0					32	15.2	487	0	3	6
1986	24	CLE	WR	86	16	0		55	838	15.2	6	57	3.4	52.4					0					55	15.2	838	6	1	8
1987	25	CLE	WR	86	13	1		43	607	14.1	6	53	3.3	46.7					0					43	14.1	607	6	1	7
1988	26	CLE	WR	86	16	1		46	579	12.6	1	33	2.9	36.2					0					46	12.6	579	1	0	5
1989	27	CLE	WR	86	14	2		28	289	10.3	0	38	2.0	20.6					0					28	10.3	289	0	1	2
1990	28	CLE	WR	86	16	5		45	568	12.6	2	28	2.8	35.5					0					45	12.6	568	2	1	4
1991	29	CLE	WR	86	15	3		31	325	10.5	1	30	2.1	21.7					0					31	10.5	325	1	1	3
1992	30	2TM	WR		15	0	32	19	188	9.9	1	21	1.3	12.5	59.4%	5.9			0					19	9.9	188	1	0	2
		CIN	WR	83	9	0	26	16	166	10.4	1	21	1.8	18.4	61.5%	6.4			0					16	10.4	166	1	0	2
		SDG	WR	13	6	0	6	3	22	7.3	0	12	0.5	3.7	50.0%	3.7			0					3	7.3	22	0	0	0

[syd]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Bell isn't fighting for a roster spot, barring disaster. 

Schwartz and Woods are, dependent on special teams play. 

woods to the practice squad the other guy bye bye 

[mjp28]

Oh and for a trip down the Cleveland BROWNS  greatest memory lane Herman Fontenot  6' 0"  206 lb  and from LSU.

And also his slightly fewer stats :

Games		Receiving							Rushing							Total Yds
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Rush	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb	AV
Career					83	4	143	1453	10.2	6	72	1.7	17.5	102	370	2	19	3.6	4.5	1.2	245	7.4	1823	8	4	16
4 yrs		CLE			53	4	72	788	10.9	2	72	1.4	14.9	68	225	1	17	3.3	4.2	1.3	140	7.2	1013	3	3	9
2 yrs		GNB			30	0	71	665	9.4	4	59	2.4	22.2	34	145	1	19	4.3	4.8	1.1	105	7.7	810	5	1	7
1985	22	CLE	RB	28	9	0	2	19	9.5	0	17	0.2	2.1			0					2	9.5	19	0	1	0
1986	23	CLE	RB	28	16	3	47	559	11.9	1	72	2.9	34.9	25	105	1	16	4.2	6.6	1.6	72	9.2	664	2	2	6
1987	24	CLE	RB	28	12	0	4	40	10.0	0	25	0.3	3.3	15	33	0	14	2.2	2.8	1.3	19	3.8	73	0	0	1
1988	25	CLE	RB	28	16	1	19	170	8.9	1	15	1.2	10.6	28	87	0	17	3.1	5.4	1.8	47	5.5	257	1	0	2
1989	26	GNB	RB	27	16	0	40	372	9.3	3	38	2.5	23.3	17	69	1	19	4.1	4.3	1.1	57	7.7	441	4	0	4
1990	27	GNB	RB	27	14	0	31	293	9.5	1	59	2.2	20.9	17	76	0	18	4.5	5.4	1.2	48	7.7	369	1	1	3

[ballpeen]

On 3/23/2023 at 10:06 PM, Flugel said:

I'll preface my answer with saying the reason the Browns have the most last place finishes in their division since they returned to the NFL is because they've done the worst in the draft.  Free agency and crack-pipe trades has never been the magical catch-up tool.   That said, did I tell you if you watch the first Rocky movie 24 times that he finally wins the 24th time you watch it?  

My answer is both.  

Rocky did win.  That was the point of the movie.