Wide Receiver

[ballpeen]

12 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Bell isn't fighting for a roster spot, barring disaster. 

Schwartz and Woods are, dependent on special teams play. 

I agree.  It's pretty rare a team gives up on a higher draft picks after just 1 season.  

[Dutch Oven]

7 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Rocky did win.  That was the point of the movie.

No, Rocky lost the fight in the original, first installment of the series.

You might want to watch that again, because winning the fight was absolutely not the point of the first Rocky. 

[ballpeen]

6 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

No, Rocky lost the fight in the original, first installment of the series.

You might want to watch that again, because winning the fight was absolutely not the point of the first Rocky. 

Yes, I know.  My comment was Rocky was a winner.  He won because he fought through adversity.

 

You don't always have to win, to win.

[Korsou Dawg]

Does anyone think we might still draft a WR if BPA? Room seems awfully crowded.

The stud TE of my dreams (on field, non-erotic), might be coming back in play. 

[Dutch Oven]

51 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Yes, I know.  My comment was Rocky was a winner.  He won because he fought through adversity.

 

You don't always have to win, to win.

You lawyers literally cannot just say "Oops, I was wrong" and move on, can you?

Gipper was great at "moving the goalposts" too. 

[Dutch Oven]

30 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Does anyone think we might still draft a WR if BPA? Room seems awfully crowded.

The stud TE of my dreams (on field, non-erotic), might be coming back in play. 

Part of me thinks it is highly improbable now, but if you think about it, despite all the moves most of them are pretty short-term. Most of the WR room could be gone by this time next year.

Who is the TE of your completely non-sexual dreams?

[TexasAg1969]

20 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Who is the TE of your completely non-sexual dreams?

I'm thinking it's more likely they trade up with some of those extra picks either for another Edge or, "ta da", the fastest RB to come out of college in a number of years who also has hands. One more safety valve option with the ability to take it to the house when receivers create a broken field. Schwartz the dropping machine is a goner.

With the addition of speedy FA WR's I'm already excited to see what this does for the RBs we already have whether or not we add one more RB in the draft.

[gumby73]

1 hour ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Does anyone think we might still draft a WR if BPA? Room seems awfully crowded.

Depends on if they think Peoples Jones is re-sign-able.. Coop & Moore & Bell are really the only 3 options with more than a year on contract left.. I'd have to see Marvin Mims/ Parker Washington or Hyatt still on the board to consider a WR in the 3rd..I like Jonathan Mingo past the 3rd rd. 

6 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I'm thinking it's more likely they trade up with some of those extra picks either for another Edge or, "ta da", the fastest RB to come out of college in a number of years who also has hands. One more safety valve option with the ability to take it to the house when receivers create a broken field. 

messing with the draft sims.. to get from 74 to mid 50's? cost a 4th/5th & #74..much better depth options at DT & Edge.

[ballpeen]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

You lawyers literally cannot just say "Oops, I was wrong" and move on, can you?

Gipper was great at "moving the goalposts" too. 

I am not moving the posts.  I do at times think philosophically and don't always subscript to the concept of Occam's razor.

 

Think about that for a head scratcher...lol

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

Yes, I know.  My comment was Rocky was a winner.  He won because he fought through adversity.

 

You don't always have to win, to win.

Overcoming adversity does take a winner so it's not a bad point.  Then again, what was the purpose of the sequel that followed the 1st Rocky movie?  Fans of the fictional character wanted to see a winner with the heart of a champion finally rewarded with his Championship right?  Isn't that what us fans of the Browns have wanted for the Brows to accomplish in the non-fictional world? The 80s was my favorite era following in spite of the heartbreak endings.  They kept coming back the next year and it was very admirable.  I felt bad for Sipe (13th round draft pick in the early 70s turned NFL MVP at the onset of the 80s) and Byner (10th round pick) that we leaned on heavily until their turnovers in/near the end zone in the closing seconds ended our post seasons.  Byner later won a Super Bowl as the work horse for Joe Gibbs.  Sipe retired shortly thereafter and went to the USFL.  

The fictional movie took place in Philadelphia.  Isn't that the same City where the majority of it's fan base booed the selection of QB Donovan McNabb by Andy Reid with their 2nd overall pick?  Keep in mind, if the Browns weren't re-entering the league in 99 - Philly would have drafted 1st after finishing with the league's worst record in 98.  Anyway, Andy Reid's guy McNabb led the Eagles to the playoffs as early as his 2nd year and all but 1 or 2 years over the next 10 years or so.  In that span, they won frequently enough to attend 5 NFC Conference Championships and 1 Super Bowl.  Because they lost 4 of the 5 Conference Championships and the 1 Super Bowl - the fans wanted both Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb out. In the non-fictional version of Philly sports fans a very large contingent of their Eagles' fanbase began to call those guys losers and wanted to chase them out of town. When you get to a point where you remain great for a while (we haven't had that since the 80s) there starts to become a divide where many will remain with your "You don't always have to win, to win" and others that start to get hateful or become Steeler fans. The irony of everything is the same Andy Reid a large contingent of Philly's fan base labelled as a loser just led KC to a Super Bowl victory over Philly.  

Gipper, Hoorta and I got to meet Mack and Byner at a Browns Backers party in one of the Honky Tonk Saloons in Nashville.  That was a fun weekend with those guys.  To save them some money I let them stay at my dump.  There was all kinds of great SEC matchups on TV that Saturday afternoon and Gipper talked me into going to President James Polk's house.  I never realized how smart Gips was outside of our football world.  He told me some fascinating stuff about the Kennedys that made the 50 minute trip each way feel like 10 minutes.

[Korsou Dawg]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Part of me thinks it is highly improbable now, but if you think about it, despite all the moves most of them are pretty short-term. Most of the WR room could be gone by this time next year.

Who is the TE of your completely non-sexual dreams?

You make a fair point about largely short-term crowdedness of the WR room.

As long as the TE is an 'old-school' type that can block AND catch, like @Flugel and me have been beating the old equestrian out of, I'm good. Don't have access to your fancy draft magazines here, but Darnell Washington from those other Dawgs seems to fit the bill.

 

1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I'm thinking it's more likely they trade up with some of those extra picks either for another Edge or, "ta da", the fastest RB to come out of college in a number of years who also has hands. One more safety valve option with the ability to take it to the house when receivers create a broken field. Schwartz the dropping machine is a goner.

With the addition of speedy FA WR's I'm already excited to see what this does for the RBs we already have whether or not we add one more RB in the draft.

With all the guys we have been adding, and limited roster space resulting from that, you are not the only one thinking might be packaged or traded out.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/3/23/23653138/nfl-draft-nfl-free-agency-cleveland-browns-trade-rumors-andrew-berry

Never seeing the WR who 'happens to share his name with the new DC, but will otherwise not be named' in the orange and brown ever again would be one of the satisfying outcomes this period. 

[TexasAg1969]

45 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

All the guys we have been adding, and limited roster space resulting from that, you are not the only one thinking might be packaged or traded out.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/3/23/23653138/nfl-draft-nfl-free-agency-cleveland-browns-trade-rumors-andrew-berry

Never seeing the WR who 'happens to share his name with the new DC, but will otherwise not be named' in the orange and brown ever again would be one of the satisfying outcomes this period. 

And that was written before our latest WR Goodwin addition which makes it even more likely IMO.

[syd]

4 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

because winning the fight was absolutely not the point of the first Rocky. 

i always thought it was a love story

[Flugel]

10 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Does anyone think we might still draft a WR if BPA? Room seems awfully crowded.

The stud TE of my dreams (on field, non-erotic), might be coming back in play. 

I don't know why that TE comment got me laughing but thanks man!  

Before we get to the TE of your dreams, I just received a commission check for $25 from Lindy's Pro Football Draft 2023. There was a note attached saying you can thank the Cleveland Browns fan that called from his boat dock in North Carolina with half a gallon of coffee in him cranking Bob Seger's Nutbush City Limits.  He said he calls himself "Fishes for Answers" in the Spring and "Dances with Woofs" in the Fall; so he bought our 2023 edition. Then he complimented and thanked us. However, he shifted gears and made us feel really guilty about getting your draft hopes up while the Browns FO was transforming itself into an Orange and Brown Rent-A-Center.  We didn't want to keep him on the phone 1 second longer so please accept this payment for all your troubles and recruiting us 1 new customer. If you plan on buying our 2024 edition, please sign and return the enclosed waiver.  All I can say to that is THANK YOU Gumbs!!! @gumby73

Regarding your dream TE, I'm hearing one of the best blocking TEs in this year's class (Georgia's Darnell Washington) is rumored to be moving on up into 1st to 2nd round consideration.  That sucks because he's a dual purpose throwback with good hands that would make our double tight really tough to defend. Not only that, if Wills is struggling - he could also be exactly what Wills needs to help protect our 230 million $ man on the blind side.  The good news is this QB only has 1 blind side KD...   

Edited March 25, 2023 by Flugel

[Orion]

10 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

With all the guys we have been adding, and limited roster space resulting from that, you are not the only one thinking might be packaged or traded out.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/3/23/23653138/nfl-draft-nfl-free-agency-cleveland-browns-trade-rumors-andrew-berry

Makes sense right?  We've got 8 picks in this draft...6 of 'em last day picks.  How many of them can possibly make the team, considering we just signed 9 new players in free agency?  ...and traded for another...

As gumby pointed out, draft charts show it'll take our first 3 picks to move up to spot 50 or so.   They might want to keep one of the 3rd rounders and package the two 4th & 5th rounders with the other 3rd to move up to the end of round 2 or perhaps up to pick 73 and have 2 picks in a row in round 3. 

I suppose it's possible that we could trade out of pick 74 for a 2nd rounder next year.  As Dutch pointed out, some of these off season moves seem stop gap....kicking the can down the road.   

[ballpeen]

I think we might see a trade up, were, who knows?  I also think we will see an effort to trade back to gain picks next year.

One would assume all of the guys signed to FA deals will probably make the team.  Maybe more on point is almost all will probably make the team.  I don't think we signed them with the intent to turn around and cut them.  I would imagine most got some sort of bonus to sign.

With that thought in place, how many roster spots will be open? The Fa's will be taking somebodys job.  A few can be slotted in to positions where we lost a player, but not all.  With 8 draft choices, it will be like throwing away draft picks.  The smart move is to push a few of those in to next year as well as some to move up this year.  Trading a pick this year for a pick next year usually brings some sort of premium.  It may not be a full round of value depending on where people think the picks might fall, but a 4th and 5th this year can become a 3rd next year.

[gumby73]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

With that thought in place, how many roster spots will be open? The Fa's will be taking somebodys job.  A few can be slotted in to positions where we lost a player, but not all.  With 8 draft choices, it will be like throwing away draft picks.  

I could see some of this making sense if we stay put..

1.) L/R FA Guard Wes Martin is rumored the FA, signing w/Browns 

2) Can we find our top young needs of DT/Edge/ILB'er falling to #74/98? I can't see Berry cutting Elliott..(yet)..With Tia,  more upside with Thomas over Wright.. Will Ioannidis/Robinson be signing anywhere before the draft?  

3) Neither Newsome or Ward want to play slot.. Draft/FA slot target needs higher upside than AJ Green

4) Schwartz prefers playing a single high Safety.. It's not on the teams roster past Thornhill/Delpit

5) RB or TE needs a upgraded 3rd.. lowest 2 draft/FA needs imo

 

edit- roster link.. https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/LongFormArticle/Predicting-The-Cleveland-Browns-53-Man-Roster-207120421/#207120421_13

[ballpeen]

I don't see 8 rookies, but money is a consideration when looking at the long term health of the salary cap.

 

I suppose it is possible.  That said I would still like to see some draft capitol moved up or go ahead and bank some for next year.

 

 

[Flugel]

1 minute ago, gumby73 said:

I could see some of this making sense if we stay put..

1.) L/R FA Guard Wes Martin is rumored the FA, signing w/Browns 

2) Can we find our top young needs of DT/Edge/ILB'er falling to #74/98? I can't see Berry cutting Elliott..(yet)..With Tia,  more upside with Thomas over Wright.. Will Ioannidis/Robinson be signing anywhere before the draft?  

3) Neither Newsome or Ward want to play slot.. Draft/FA slot target needs higher upside than AJ Green

4) Schwartz prefers playing a single high Safety.. It's not on the teams roster past Thornhill/Delpit

5) RB or TE need a upgraded 3rd.. lowest 2 needs imo

 

 

JMO, if Newsome doesn't want to play slot - then he needs to outplay Emerson so that Emerson can return to his role in the slot.  Part of the problem there is Emerson is built a little bigger at 6'2" for the jam at the line of scrimmage than Newsome.  Not that Newsome is bad (he's a 1st round pick) so this is a good problem to have if it's a problem at all.  

Here's something else to contemplate, Denzel Ward isn't very durable so my guess is they will all get their share of reps not covering the slot.  You know we'll still draft at least 1 corner somewhere in the draft.

[Flugel]

12 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

I don't see 8 rookies, but money is a consideration when looking at the long term health of the salary cap.

 

I suppose it is possible.  That said I would still like to see some draft capitol moved up or go ahead and bank some for next year.

 

 

Are we sure a rookie couldn't outplay Hurst or Hill or both?  I think we've leaned as heavily on free agency as we need to.  It's been an admirable effort; but there's a fine line of cap health and longer term future ahead.  

With no injuries to worry about during the off-season - what happens if we lost someone like Tomlinson and we thought we didn't need to draft IDL?   We're jamming Schwartz with pawns, which he probably already clarified he wants reliable help at the DT sports.  

I think it would be a good idea to draft a DT this year.

[gumby73]

35 minutes ago, Flugel said:

  Here's something else to contemplate, Denzel Ward isn't very durable so my guess is they will all get their share of reps not covering the slot.  You know we'll still draft at least 1 corner somewhere in the draft.

I was looking at pff's slot & high safety reps this morning..

Illinois Sydney Brown & Bama's Brian Branch are highly rated in both

Utah- Clark Phillips.. Louisville- Keutrel Clark.. Illinois- Jartavius Martin.. more draft mid-range prospects

TCU- Hodges-Tomllnson (man can he turn some smooth hips) undersized 5'9 178 4.41/40.. only 29 slot reps 

[gumby73]

On 3/23/2023 at 6:08 PM, Orion said:

They want a burner.  It's been reported that we have one of the slowest WR groups.  - Weston's not slow.  C'mon Weston!

Back at the WR topic...

might be something brewing at camp, if over 6'ft wide outs are now the need..  

 

With ya O... I'm a fan of Long - shots 

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

Are we sure a rookie couldn't outplay Hurst or Hill or both?  I think we've leaned as heavily on free agency as we need to.  It's been an admirable effort; but there's a fine line of cap health and longer term future ahead.  

With no injuries to worry about during the off-season - what happens if we lost someone like Tomlinson and we thought we didn't need to draft IDL?   We're jamming Schwartz with pawns, which he probably already clarified he wants reliable help at the DT sports.  

I think it would be a good idea to draft a DT this year.

I never said we shouldn't draft another DT, or any other position for that matter.

 

First, I don't trust rookies to make any real impact.   

Second, I don't see the room on the roster to keep 8 drafted rookies.  I'd rather see a trade up(maybe to get that DT) and some trades to pick up a couple of players for next year.

 

Do you really expect to see a 5th round rookie making any real big impact?  They might, but I wouldn't expect it.  I don't think Stefasnski wants to stake his job on the hope some 4th or 5th rounder is going to step right in and make a big difference.

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

I never said we shouldn't draft another DT, or any other position for that matter.

 

First, I don't trust rookies to make any real impact.   

Second, I don't see the room on the roster to keep 8 drafted rookies.  I'd rather see a trade up(maybe to get that DT) and some trades to pick up a couple of players for next year.

 

Do you really expect to see a 5th round rookie making any real big impact?  They might, but I wouldn't expect it.  I don't think Stefasnski wants to stake his job on the hope some 4th or 5th rounder is going to step right in and make a big difference.

LOL.  I know you didn't say that - I just liked your post because I think a lot of us are thinking about this.  

Your pov about trusting rookies to make an impact is probably pretty popular especially considering we're only drafting about 8 guys.  My train of thought about this is we've kept guys like Schwartz, Elliott and others longer than we should have.  We're in last place right? I'd rather give new people a shot like the rookies and recent veteran acquisitions we got through FA and trades.  We have made trades and one gave up a 2nd round pick doing so.  This will be our 2nd year in a row entering the draft in round 3 so I think you're safe that all 8 draftees won't make the active roster.  Some will be on the practice squad.

Do I expect to see a 5th round pick make any impact?  Are you telling me the Chiefs shouldn't have given Tyreek Hill a chance? I think you still have to build through the draft and supplement needs through FA.  Eaarnest Byner was a 10th round draft pick.  Brian Sipe was a 13th round pick and he's the ONLY NFL MVP we've had this side of 1970.  

I look at a team like Seattle last year that had 5 rookies starting on a roster that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs or come anywhere near the post season.

[nickers]

36 minutes ago, Flugel said:

LOL.  I know you didn't say that - I just liked your post because I think a lot of us are thinking about this.  

Your pov about trusting rookies to make an impact is probably pretty popular especially considering we're only drafting about 8 guys.  My train of thought about this is we've kept guys like Schwartz, Elliott and others longer than we should have.  We're in last place right? I'd rather give new people a shot like the rookies and recent veteran acquisitions we got through FA and trades.  We have made trades and one gave up a 2nd round pick doing so.  This will be our 2nd year in a row entering the draft in round 3 so I think you're safe that all 8 draftees won't make the active roster.  Some will be on the practice squad.

Do I expect to see a 5th round pick make any impact?  Are you telling me the Chiefs shouldn't have given Tyreek Hill a chance? I think you still have to build through the draft and supplement needs through FA.  Eaarnest Byner was a 10th round draft pick.  Brian Sipe was a 13th round pick and he's the ONLY NFL MVP we've had this side of 1970.  

I look at a team like Seattle last year that had 5 rookies starting on a roster that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs or come anywhere near the post season.

Case and point.. Correct me if I'm wrong... Didn't Otto Graham win a championship his rookie season?... I know times are different... But that's hard to do in any era, Team, etc...

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, nickers said:

Case and point.. Correct me if I'm wrong... Didn't Otto Graham win a championship his rookie season?... I know times are different... But that's hard to do in any era, Team, etc...

Exactly Nicks!  The ONLY time Dan Marino went to the Super Bowl was his rookie year. I partially agree with Ballpeen in the sense that you don't want to throw too many rookies out there; and nobody wants us to.  

We have no shortage of veterans and experience on this roster anywhere so I'm okay with adding rookies to our active roster and practice squad.  I'd rather have us cut the previous draft picks that didn't pan out or develop into guys that would help us compete.  We've seen enough of Elliott, Togiai, Schwartz, Felton, Forbes and others to cut them in order  to make room for new prospects that could be able to help us. 

You have to at least TRY to build this team inclusive of the patience to realize some guys won't start immediately.   You know like Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers, Steve McNair.  Those weren't bad draft picks because they didn't start their rookies seasons were they?  This happens with guys at other positions too.  Greg Pruitt had to wait until Leroy Kelly retired.   Joel Bitonio isn't going to play forever.  And guess what round Buffalo draft Wyatt Teller in?  Round 5.

 

[ballpeen]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

LOL.  I know you didn't say that - I just liked your post because I think a lot of us are thinking about this.  

Your pov about trusting rookies to make an impact is probably pretty popular especially considering we're only drafting about 8 guys.  My train of thought about this is we've kept guys like Schwartz, Elliott and others longer than we should have.  We're in last place right? I'd rather give new people a shot like the rookies and recent veteran acquisitions we got through FA and trades.  We have made trades and one gave up a 2nd round pick doing so.  This will be our 2nd year in a row entering the draft in round 3 so I think you're safe that all 8 draftees won't make the active roster.  Some will be on the practice squad.

Do I expect to see a 5th round pick make any impact?  Are you telling me the Chiefs shouldn't have given Tyreek Hill a chance? I think you still have to build through the draft and supplement needs through FA.  Eaarnest Byner was a 10th round draft pick.  Brian Sipe was a 13th round pick and he's the ONLY NFL MVP we've had this side of 1970.  

I look at a team like Seattle last year that had 5 rookies starting on a roster that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs or come anywhere near the post season.

Guys like Schwartz are already replaced.  My count has us signing 13 FA players.  Two were existing players...Taki and Pocic.  That is 11 added players, most all if not all will make the team.  They are going to be replacing somebody.

 

Don't make it sound like I want to keep crappy players.  I am glad they are gone.  I see room for maybe 4 rookie players.  That is why I would like to maybe move up to get a better player and trade back to pick up a pick or two next year.  We will still be down a 1st rounder and we won't get the extra 3rd rounder for the executive the Vikings hired.

 

So go ahead and throw out all the Tyreek Hills you want.  You known damn good and well that isn't the norm, so maybe we can try to be realistic about exactly what you are drafting from the 5th round on.  We have drafted dozens of 6th rounders who weren't worth a crap.  So have all other teams.

[nickers]

3 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Guys like Schwartz are already replaced.  My count has us signing 13 FA players.  Two were existing players...Taki and Pocic.  That is 11 added players, most all if not all will make the team.  They are going to be replacing somebody.

 

Don't make it sound like I want to keep crappy players.  I am glad they are gone.  I see room for maybe 4 rookie players.  That is why I would like to maybe move up to get a better player and trade back to pick up a pick or two next year.  We will still be down a 1st rounder and we won't get the extra 3rd rounder for the executive the Vikings hired.

 

So go ahead and throw out all the Tyreek Hills you want.  You known damn good and well that isn't the norm, so maybe we can try to be realistic about exactly what you are drafting from the 5th round on.  We have drafted dozens of 6th rounders who weren't worth a crap.  So have all other teams.

I don't think he's arguing with ya Peen.. You both made salient points..

[ballpeen]

Just now, nickers said:

I don't think he's arguing with ya Peen.. You both made salient points..

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

LOL.  I know you didn't say that - I just liked your post because I think a lot of us are thinking about this.  

Your pov about trusting rookies to make an impact is probably pretty popular especially considering we're only drafting about 8 guys.  My train of thought about this is we've kept guys like Schwartz, Elliott and others longer than we should have.  We're in last place right? I'd rather give new people a shot like the rookies and recent veteran acquisitions we got through FA and trades.  We have made trades and one gave up a 2nd round pick doing so.  This will be our 2nd year in a row entering the draft in round 3 so I think you're safe that all 8 draftees won't make the active roster.  Some will be on the practice squad.

Do I expect to see a 5th round pick make any impact?  Are you telling me the Chiefs shouldn't have given Tyreek Hill a chance? I think you still have to build through the draft and supplement needs through FA.  Eaarnest Byner was a 10th round draft pick.  Brian Sipe was a 13th round pick and he's the ONLY NFL MVP we've had this side of 1970.  

I look at a team like Seattle last year that had 5 rookies starting on a roster that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs or come anywhere near the post season.

Cool.  Also, my earlier point doesn't include the trade we made for Moore.

[Orion]

I saw somewhere where Berry wanted to trade for Moore last year.