Wide Receiver

[ballpeen]

5 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Report: Cardinals could cut WR DeAndre Hopkins

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2023/04/03/browns-cardinals-deshaun-watson-target-deandre-hopkins-could-cut/

If this does happen, we would be in pole position to land him. Some deal would have to be worked out to fit him under the cap and be able to sign our picks, but his history with DW might go a long way. 

I am not even sure I want the guy, but if it happens, so be it.

[Vambo]

Browns wideout suffers season-ending injury

https://www.wkbn.com/sports/cleveland-browns/report-browns-fear-wideout-suffered-major-injury/

HOUSTON, Texas (WKBN) – The Cleveland Browns have confirmed that second-year wide receiver Michael Woods suffered a ruptured Achilles while working out with quarterback Deshaun Watson.

He is expected to miss the entire 2023 season.

Woods was a sixth-round draft choice of the Browns out of Oklahoma in 2022.

 

Report: Browns hosting 330-pound former Steeler

In his first season in the NFL, Woods appeared in 10 games. He finished his rookie campaign with 5 receptions for 45 yards.

Woods battled injuries last season, missing the entire preseason. He also was inactive for the first five games of the regular season.

[Orion]

29 minutes ago, Vambo said:

second-year wide receiver Michael Woods suffered a ruptured Achilles while working out with quarterback Deshaun Watson.

Quite a big loss for Woods.   While trying to do the right thing.  

[ballpeen]

I wonder how teams handle that.  It wasn't a team activity where the injury occurred.

[Korsou Dawg]

17 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I am not even sure I want the guy, but if it happens, so be it.

I hear what you are saying. He definitely isn't the D-Hop DW threw to in Houston anymore, and our sacrifice should be minimal.

That said, giving DW Cooper, D-Hop and Njoku to throw to, supported by Moore, DPJ, Bell and Akins, is a deeeeep 'kid in candy store' group of targets. 

[Orion]

5 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I wonder how teams handle that.  It wasn't a team activity where the injury occurred.

I'm assuming that the poor guy is out a year's salary.  That's why I say it's a big loss for him.

[TexasAg1969]

24 minutes ago, Orion said:

I'm assuming that the poor guy is out a year's salary.  That's why I say it's a big loss for him.

I'm not certain how the Browns treat moneywise that given he was working out with our starting QB. I know they don't like Garrett playing in pickup basketball games as he has done from time to time. But that isn't with other players either.

[Bob806]

Just now, TexasAg1969 said:

I'm not certain how the Browns treat moneywise that given he was working out with our starting QB. I know they don't like Garrett playing in pickup basketball games as he has done from time to time. But that isn't with other players either.

I think there is standard language in everybody's contract about what's covered & what isn't in the off season...like KW jr's motorcycle mishap was prohibited.

For a " team building" exercise like this, I'd hope he's covered. I'm sure it's not the first player to have this type of thing happen.

[tiamat63]

D-Hop is an interesting question.  But it also leads me into two other questions, at 31 years old, what sort of contract is he looking for?    And wouldn't that money be better vested into Amari Cooper at 28 years old?

[ballpeen]

18 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

D-Hop is an interesting question.  But it also leads me into two other questions, at 31 years old, what sort of contract is he looking for?    And wouldn't that money be better vested into Amari Cooper at 28 years old?

That is where i am at.  As I said, if it happens it happens and i will hope for the best.

 

I just take the attitude that "You can never go home" so to speak.  The magic might rekindle, but it usually doesn't.  As you said, it might be wiser to extend Cooper a few years, or just look for someone else.

[Flugel]

18 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

D-Hop is an interesting question.  But it also leads me into two other questions, at 31 years old, what sort of contract is he looking for?    And wouldn't that money be better vested into Amari Cooper at 28 years old?

FWIW, he started last season on a 6 games suspension.  This part might be wrong; but I thought it was for PEDs. Sometimes when guys are losing a step or they're not bouncing back from injury as quickly as their younger versions did - you have to ask yourself if they're worth paying more today than their best football in the rear view mirror.  The year he got injured, Arizona was undefeated something like 8-10 weeks into the season.  Their fans probably didn't have any idea they'd need to panic about the difference in Kyler Murray's performance without him.  

Last year a few people brought up Will Fuller as a vet we should consider because of his speed.  I think the biggest reason he remained unsigned was because teams knew he tested positive for PEDs.  It wasn't as much that he tried to get away with it as much as why he needed to resort to it.  

 

[Korsou Dawg]

20 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

D-Hop is an interesting question.  But it also leads me into two other questions, at 31 years old, what sort of contract is he looking for?    And wouldn't that money be better vested into Amari Cooper at 28 years old?

100% we should keep Coop. He was fantastic last year, and a complete steal. If that can be combined with a 1 year 'prove it' deal with D-Hop, it is worth considering at least. 

If we were to, do you think there is any value left in trading in the final year of DPJ's final rookie deal? The WR room is crowded to begin with. 

[tiamat63]

54 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

100% we should keep Coop. He was fantastic last year, and a complete steal. If that can be combined with a 1 year 'prove it' deal with D-Hop, it is worth considering at least. 

If we were to, do you think there is any value left in trading in the final year of DPJ's final rookie deal? The WR room is crowded to begin with. 

No. Hop would be a stop-gap, a jump start for the offense for one year.   DPJ has long-term promise and the best minds always keep one eye to the future, while looking for ways to live in and enjoy the moment. 

 Without any further additions, DPJ is between an 825-1000k yard receiver. The Jets unfortunately just reset the market for those types trying to appease Rodgers by handing 11m a year to Allen Lazard.  

 I'd start working with his agent now, dip my toe in the pool and see what he's looking for.  Because if mid season he's on pace for 70ish catches at 13.5 a clip, then I want to avoid that Lazard type payout and secure him team friendly. 

[Korsou Dawg]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

No. Hop would be a stop-gap, a jump start for the offense for one year.   DPJ has long-term promise and the best minds always keep one eye to the future, while looking for ways to live in and enjoy the moment. 

 Without any further additions, DPJ is between an 825-1000k yard receiver. The Jets unfortunately just reset the market for those types trying to appease Rodgers by handing 11m a year to Allen Lazard.  

 I'd start working with his agent now, dip my toe in the pool and see what he's looking for.  Because if mid season he's on pace for 70ish catches at 13.5 a clip, then I want to avoid that Lazard type payout and secure him team friendly. 

I think we largely agree about DPJ skill-wise, but our assessment of the situation might differ.

I see the likelihood of re-signing DPJ as less than 20%. He doesn't seem elite enough to warrant big non-rookie money, nor mediocre enough to accept an affordable pay check.  Given the fact that highly capable rookie classes are available each year, I just don't see value in paying DPJ any more than a rookie deal.

[Orion]

4 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

The WR room is crowded to begin with. 

...but with what?  We've got Cooper and DPJ.  Then Bell who was unimpressive in year one.  Schwartz who's always been unimpressive.  We traded for Moore, who's been and underachiever and a PITA to the Jets.  Then, a kick returner and a bunch of camp guys.

I'm not saying that we should sign a high priced old guy...but to me, there's space in that WR room for a good player.  

...and, of course, I'm still hoping that Weston turns out to be a good player.  (hoping against hope)

[Bob806]

1 hour ago, Korsou Dawg said:

I think we largely agree about DPJ skill-wise, but our assessment of the situation might differ.

I see the likelihood of re-signing DPJ as less than 20%. He doesn't seem elite enough to warrant big non-rookie money, nor mediocre enough to accept an affordable pay check.  Given the fact that highly capable rookie classes are available each year, I just don't see value in paying DPJ any more than a rookie deal.

I don't know. DPJ reminds me a bit of Reggie Langhorne- not ultra fast, but makes tough catches. Also, don't forget he did return a punt for a TD, a rarity in the NFL anymore. 

I've got no clue what kind of money he'd seek. He was a 7th round pick, quite the surprise. The Browns have a reliable player, don't send him packing, the draft is no guarantee especially in Cleveland.

[Korsou Dawg]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

Then Bell who was unimpressive in year one. 

For the life of me, I do not get why people say that. Bell saw limited snaps, which hurt is totals, but made the most of them. He has also proven to be one of the best rookies at getting open, and had zero drops. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/dont-forget-about-david-bell

Quote

Enter David Bell. There's a misconception that Bell had a disappointing rookie year, which is part of the reason the Browns would need to push for more receiver help. Bell caught 24 passes for 214 yards as a rookie. Not exactly setting the world on fire. However, Bell was on the field for 43.95 percent of the Browns offensive snaps. He was also able to get open against man coverage consistently.

Quote

 

The reason he didn't get the ball more is twofold. First, Jacoby Brissett was a risk averse quarterback who targeted receivers he trusted. Initially, that didn't even include DPJ. It took a few games before Brissett really started looking in his direction, defaulting to Cooper in tense situations. It wasn't until the final three games with Brissett that Bell saw an uptick in targets, catching 11 passes on 16 opportunities for 69 yards.

Second, the Browns didn't necessarily need Bell to contribute much production. They were good with Cooper, DPJ and David Njoku generating a combined 162.5 yards per game as well as 16 receiving touchdowns. It was a great situation to introduce a rookie receiver, allowing Bell to learn and develop without significant stakes. That experience should benefit Bell as he prepares for year two.

 

As for Moore, you have every right to call him an under achiever, but we traded for him. That means he is going to see snaps, crowding the room indeed.

@Bob806makes a fair point though. Might as well let him play out his contract, and see if we can hammer out a deal. There is almost certainly more value in that than trading him.

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

I think we largely agree about DPJ skill-wise, but our assessment of the situation might differ.

I see the likelihood of re-signing DPJ as less than 20%. He doesn't seem elite enough to warrant big non-rookie money, nor mediocre enough to accept an affordable pay check.  Given the fact that highly capable rookie classes are available each year, I just don't see value in paying DPJ any more than a rookie deal.

I think you might be going a few steps further than me in terms of projection.  Which is why I mentioned the 'dip the toe'.  

 I don't want to pay him Lazard money, but it's possible both he and his agent know how silly 11m is for WR3.  I'm willing to concede he might be worth close to that number if he flirts with 1k season though.    Also to point out, might have the 'crowd' effect.  CLE took a chance on him when he was barreling towards UDFA.  If Watson plays even 85% of what he did in 2020, he'll be in a great situation to get the ball, with a good offense that should win games and be fun to be apart of.  And he'll continue playing under the only head coach he's known.  

 Money is a lot, but it isn't everything.  

 And as far as the "crowded" WR room, we need to consider that it really isn't all that crowded with cost AND the TE group is still prominently featured in this offense.  

[Orion]

2 hours ago, Bob806 said:

He was a 7th round pick

6th round.  He was known for drops in college.  But you'd never have known it by his time with us.  He makes contested catches.  I've learned to like him.  I hope Watson is able to show us how good DPJ is.  

[Korsou Dawg]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 And as far as the "crowded" WR room, we need to consider that it really isn't all that crowded with cost AND the TE group is still prominently featured in this offense.  

Isn't that a contradiction? The prominent featuring of the TE group effectively leaves less opportunity for WRs on the field, making the room more crowded.

With Coop, DPJ, Bell, Moore and special teams guys already signed, I maintain the room is fairly crowded to begin with. Furthermore, this discussion started in the context of possibly adding D-Hop, and others have also mentioned possibly drafting another WR. If either of those two happen, I would sooner classify the room as over-crowded. 

I do not see much merit to cost as a counter. We have issued so much money at the top of the roster, the budget for every group needs to be managed (i.e. kept limited) as much as possible. 

1 hour ago, Orion said:

6th round.  He was known for drops in college.  But you'd never have known it by his time with us.  He makes contested catches.  I've learned to like him.  I hope Watson is able to show us how good DPJ is.  

Don't get me wrong, I like DPJ. If DW shows how good he is, that should be great for our results next season. It also all but guarantees he will not be with us in 2024. That's how budgeting for the cap works out, unfortunately. Another team will offer him more, than his 'value' top us. I rate Bell as at least comparable to DPJ, and he has 3 years left on his rookie deal. That value is hard to beat.

[tiamat63]

3 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Isn't that a contradiction? The prominent featuring of the TE group effectively leaves less opportunity for WRs on the field, making the room more crowded.

With Coop, DPJ, Bell, Moore and special teams guys already signed, I maintain the room is fairly crowded to begin with. Furthermore, this discussion started in the context of possibly adding D-Hop, and others have also mentioned possibly drafting another WR. If either of those two happen, I would sooner classify the room as over-crowded. 

I do not see much merit to cost as a counter. We have issued so much money at the top of the roster, the budget for every group needs to be managed (i.e. kept limited) as much as possible. 

Don't get me wrong, I like DPJ. If DW shows how good he is, that should be great for our results next season. It also all but guarantees he will not be with us in 2024. That's how budgeting for the cap works out, unfortunately. Another team will offer him more, than his 'value' top us. I rate Bell as at least comparable to DPJ, and he has 3 years left on his rookie deal. That value is hard to beat.

 

 I guess when I say crowded, I mean in terms of cost.  So even if there's bodies that can play and it looks a bit log-jammed pre-camp, if they're cheap it doesn't concern me.   Turning over the bottom of the WR room looking for potential talent will likely always mean we have this conversation around this time every year.    At least, I would suspect so despite the fact that I'm sure we'll be in 11 personnel quite a bit a times.  I have some high(er) hopes for Bell and Moore, but having 1 pro-bowler, 1 solid starter and 2 guys that are potential isn't really crowded in the sense of talent and target distribution either, IMHO.  If anything, given that Coop will likely sit out a bulk of the pre-season, gives us time to take a much longer look at Bell and Moore early/often.  

 Even if another receiver is added, Bell and Moore are on their rookie contracts.  Plenty cheap and not something that would weigh us down for a season, despite the fact I understand completely about being top heavy about cash and needing to be intelligent elsewhere.  

 As much as I enjoyed Bell at Purdue and do believe he has a future, to compare him to DPJ right now is a bit premature.  Not saying he can't be that guy, but I need to see something else before I would lend him that credit.  

 

 Of course, worth pointing out, you've got 2 years left on Chubb's contract.   So after next season, that 12m an RB1 is coming off the books.  Right around time to look at offer sheets for Bell and Moore should the become what we would hope.  

[Orion]

On 4/6/2023 at 2:13 PM, Korsou Dawg said:

Bell caught 24 passes for 214 yards as a rookie. Not exactly setting the world on fire. However, Bell was on the field for 43.95 percent of the Browns offensive snaps.

That tells us that he was on the field for a huge chunk of the passing downs.  Josh Gordon got that many yards in one game against the Patriots. (I'd put up a smiley face except we managed to lose)  

It was good to read that he was able to get open.  We're in need of him (someone) being a good receiver.

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

That tells us that he was on the field for a huge chunk of the passing downs.  Josh Gordon got that many yards in one game against the Patriots. (I'd put up a smiley face except we managed to lose)  

It was good to read that he was able to get open.  We're in need of him (someone) being a good receiver.

Talent evals aren't AB's strong suit.. He lucked out on Emerson...

[Korsou Dawg]

13 hours ago, Orion said:

That tells us that he was on the field for a huge chunk of the passing downs.  Josh Gordon got that many yards in one game against the Patriots. (I'd put up a smiley face except we managed to lose)  

It was good to read that he was able to get open.  We're in need of him (someone) being a good receiver.

His production versus time on the field is explained in the article due to the generally risk-averse choices made by Jacoby. So he threw to guys he was more comfortable with, and went for safe options (routes) which reduces 'flashy' yardage opportunities. The stats show Bell was good at getting open, but didn't get the ball very often. That's mainly on the QB, not on him.

Singing the praise of DPJ, while being down on Bell just doesn't make any sense to me. It's like saying: I like the WR we threw to, but not the guy we didn't. Okay. You like WRs who get used. As it stands, Bell is likely to get the ball more, so get ready to become more fond of him. 

[Orion]

3 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

His production versus time on the field is explained in the article

Thanks.  I had read the article.  Jacoby not throwing to an open receiver.  Reminds one of Baker not throwing to OBJ.  Hopefully Watson will think higher of him.

[nickers]

2 hours ago, Orion said:

Thanks.  I had read the article.  Jacoby not throwing to an open receiver.  Reminds one of Baker not throwing to OBJ.  Hopefully Watson will think higher of him.

I don't want that sack of cancer back here...

[Unsympathetic]

Outside of OL and arguably DL, every room moving forward [as with all good teams]:

One top-paid guy // One veteran contract at some level // 2 rookie deals.  Maybe something additional if cap money is around.  And with Cooper's salary.. that would be a no.

I'm not sure what the question here is.  DPJ and Bell and now Moore are on rookie deals, Cooper is deservedly the #1.  Not bringing any anyone else gives us some flexibility to handle other positions -- hopefully DL, arguably the worst position group in the entire NFL last season. 

Letting DPJ walk would mean committing to drafting WR relatively high about every year because we're not going to get a solid WR2 on day3 for a while.  Woods is.. no DPJ.   Im OK with that plan. Bell at WR4 this year, Moore WR3.. seems about right, and pretty good. Move them up one in 2024 and draft another WR in rd3 of the 2024 draft.

Also.. what precisely would another receiver give us that Bell didn't last season? A second guy who's unquestionably open for the QB to ignore before he throws his -1 yard checkdown?

[Orion]

Current cast of characters - 4/8   (Felton is listed as a RB)

Daylen Baldwin  17    WR    6-2    212    23    1    Michigan

David Bell  18    WR    6-1    212    22    2    Purdue

Amari Cooper  2    WR    6-1    210    28    9    Alabama

Jaelon Darden  16    WR    5-8    173    24    3    North Texas

Jakeem Grant Sr.  9    WR    5-7    172    30    8    Texas Tech

Mike Harley Jr  82    WR    5-10    180    25    1    Miami (Fla.)

Elijah Moore  --    WR    5-10    178    23    3    Mississippi

Donovan Peoples-Jones  11    WR    6-2    204    24    4    Michigan

Anthony Schwartz  10    WR    6-0    186    22    3    Auburn

Marquez Stevenson  15    WR    5-10    180    25    3    Houston

Isaiah Weston  17    WR    6-4    214    25    2    Northern Iowa

[Flugel]

15 hours ago, Orion said:

Current cast of characters - 4/8   (Felton is listed as a RB)

Daylen Baldwin  17    WR    6-2    212    23    1    Michigan

David Bell  18    WR    6-1    212    22    2    Purdue

Amari Cooper  2    WR    6-1    210    28    9    Alabama

Jaelon Darden  16    WR    5-8    173    24    3    North Texas

Jakeem Grant Sr.  9    WR    5-7    172    30    8    Texas Tech

Mike Harley Jr  82    WR    5-10    180    25    1    Miami (Fla.)

Elijah Moore  --    WR    5-10    178    23    3    Mississippi

Donovan Peoples-Jones  11    WR    6-2    204    24    4    Michigan

Anthony Schwartz  10    WR    6-0    186    22    3    Auburn

Marquez Stevenson  15    WR    5-10    180    25    3    Houston

Isaiah Weston  17    WR    6-4    214    25    2    Northern Iowa

I think the trio of Andy Reid, Travis Kelce and Patrick Mahomes could keep on winning with this group.   I think Depodesta is pushing the old Oakland Raiders vertical game with Cliff Branch on the perimeter on Stefanski.  That would be fine if there was a consistent Freddie Biletnikoff on the other side of the formation with a Pro Bowl TE like Dave Casper.  The problem is Cooper kind of had to take on both roles last year (as opposed to putting someone else on the perimeter for opponents to worry about matching up with). While I'm at it contemplating time to throw, Jedrick Wills on the blind side of the formation doesn't quite have the same commitment to excellence that a former 3rd round draft pick Art Shell had.  The good news is Joel Bitionio is willing to perform well enough to frequent Pro Bowls like Gene Upshaw used to.

Why all that ridiculous comparison stuff from me?   Ideas are fine if you have the know how to orchestrate it all with the personnel at hand. Once upon a time, the Browns needed to replace Lindy Infante as the OC - but they had a seemingly great idea to keep his offense that stretched defenses horizontally as much as vertically.  The problem that arose from that was the guy replacing Lindy Infante wasn't Lindy Infante.  In other words, he didn't have the same understanding of how to utilize the design to attack the defense.  The quiet stars of our offense in 1986 were 3rd down gems WR Brian Brennan and RB Herman Fontenot.  They attacked the areas and spaces vacated by defenses wanting to blitz the cement shoe'd Bernie Kosar and man did that work.  Brennan led the Browns with 55 receptions while Fontenot snuck into the lineup enough to add 47 receptions on our 12 win team.  Anyway, the replacement OC for Infante in 1988 had time management issues, problems with getting the right personnel in for the down and distance situation; and other things lacking the understanding of the design and philosophy.  It's kind of like the Bill Belichick assistant coaches getting Head Coaching jobs without Bill's supervision and wealth of experience any more - plus not having Tom Brady as their QB. Gee, what could go wrong?

This isn't directed at you Orion; but I keep reading people saying Stefanski's job is on the line which is probably true.  That said, WHO has the ultimate responsibility for the sum of all it's parts to work?  Ok, so Depo wants the Kenny Stabler to Cliff Branch deep hook-ups.  Fine with me, then he better show me an Art Shell equivalence at Left Tackle (on the blind side) to give our QB the time to launch. And if Depo ever wants to see a Ghost to the Post from the TE - then the TE can't be kept in to baby-sit our LT with blind side pass pro.  I AM reading Elijah Moore isn't a slot receiver and he can line up outside or inside so we traded away our 2nd round pick for him to be our Cliff Branch, which makes Amari Cooper our Freddie Biletnikoff.  One scouting report I read on Elijah coming out of college was - he didn't have an elite QB throwing to him and there's room for improvement on his route precision.  I'm guessing Musgrave was added to help design and tailor the passing game to Watson's strengths in tandem with Depodesta's pass game wishes.  1 year late like the DL stuff, but not to worry - Depodesta has tenure and Stefanski does not.  All potential land mines remind me Jimmy Haslam is our owner.  I hope it works; because if it doesn't - I think we're gonna see the wrong guy getting fired.  FWIW, Stefanski did a nice job coordinating the offense for Brissett just as he did for Baker when the Browns went 11-5 during his 1st year as our HC calling the plays.  Baker had a TD:INT ratio of 26:8, which means Stefanski helped us win with/despite them.  I'm gonna be specific - I don't think our problem is Stefanski even if there's times I question a certain play call here and there.  

We're long overdue for pleasant surprises here.  Let's see what happens...

Edited April 9, 2023 by Flugel
typos

[syd]

this did not deserve it's own thread so thought i would put it here,freaking baltimore just gave obj 18 million for one year

o.k good luck with that