Charting Quinn against the Vikings

[Guest Masters]

Just as the ball is snapped you see both corners open up to the inside and drop. The SS (who's just barely on the screen) drops at an angle from the near hash to the middle of the field. That's your Cover 3 shell.

 

Underneath, the sam stays with the inside TE, the mike takes the outside TE, and the will stays with the back. The Free safety is in an empty zone. It's hard to say if that's a Cover 3 man under, or if the lbs are just making counts. The sam backer is definitely in man-to-man. But it's not uncommon to leave just that matchup. You have the two backers playing thirds with the safety and play 3 over and 3 under. If the 2nd TE releases, the sam has him one on one. The will is either waiting for the back to release in man, or waiting for someone to enter his zone. I can't tell what the mike backer's doing. That is either a zone drop or some of the worst man coverage I've ever seen. If it's a zone drop, it's pretty heady of the will backer to hang around the line because no one released into his zone.

 

It's a little hybrid coverage, it looks like. Maybe a Cover 3 Man look, just rolled over to the weak side. Either way if you're going to one of the outside receivers, you've got to read that as a zone.

 

-jj

 

Thanks for the break down Jason. I think you are right when you say that it might it's a hybrid. That's what I was kind of seeing when I rewatched it (zone for the corners and man for the LBs), but wanted your take on it.

 

While I think the read Quinn made could work against that coverage (maybe where Reggie Rucker was going when he was on Reghi), Quinn has to see to see that cover 3 up top like BE did. Of course if it was a hybrid, that's definately one of those "you got to play live games and see that to learn" type of coverages.

 

[Mark O]

Just as the ball is snapped you see both corners open up to the inside and drop. The SS (who's just barely on the screen) drops at an angle from the near hash to the middle of the field. That's your Cover 3 shell.

 

Underneath, the sam stays with the inside TE, the mike takes the outside TE, and the will stays with the back. The Free safety is in an empty zone. It's hard to say if that's a Cover 3 man under, or if the lbs are just making counts. The sam backer is definitely in man-to-man. But it's not uncommon to leave just that matchup. You have the two backers playing thirds with the safety and play 3 over and 3 under. If the 2nd TE releases, the sam has him one on one. The will is either waiting for the back to release in man, or waiting for someone to enter his zone. I can't tell what the mike backer's doing. That is either a zone drop or some of the worst man coverage I've ever seen. If it's a zone drop, it's pretty heady of the will backer to hang around the line because no one released into his zone.

 

It's a little hybrid coverage, it looks like. Maybe a Cover 3 Man look, just rolled over to the weak side. Either way if you're going to one of the outside receivers, you've got to read that as a zone.

 

-jj

 

 

I have no idea if you're right or not...but it's a pretty impressive break down of a play.

 

You need to post more often.

[Vegasdogg]

My bad ... cute charts though, he's getting better as the week progresses, just like Couch use to.

Except he doesn't throw 4 INT's like our benched QB did his first few games.

 

Did you even bother to examine DA's first 4 starts? Did you forget how piss poor his decisions were in 2006?

No?

 

Well your blind.

 

[ballpeen]

Except he doesn't throw 4 INT's like our benched QB did his first few games.

 

Did you even bother to examine DA's first 4 starts? Did you forget how piss poor his decisions were in 2006?

No?

 

Well your blind.

 

 

This isn't about DA...this is about BQ and how he plays. You want to compare him to Anderson??.....not me..lets compare him to Rodgers...both sat the first 2 years in the league.

 

Keep your eye on the ball.

 

[Guest Masters]

This isn't about DA...this is about BQ and how he plays. You want to compare him to Anderson??.....not me..lets compare him to Rodgers...both sat the first 2 years in the league.

 

Keep your eye on the ball.

 

Rogers sat for 3 years in the league

[ballpeen]

Rogers sat for 3 years in the league

 

Fair enough...we will see if BQ looks 2/3 as good then.

 

The point is he isn't a rookie.

 

Fair enough???

 

[Guest Masters]

Fair enough...we will see if BQ looks 2/3 as good then.

 

The point is he isn't a rookie.

 

Fair enough???

 

I was just noting it was 3 years for Rogers.

 

He's not a pure rookie for sure. My expectations are for Quinn to perform somewhere in between Matt Ryan and Aaron Rogers last year.

[ballpeen]

I was just noting it was 3 years for Rogers.

 

He's not a pure rookie for sure. My expectations are for Quinn to perform somewhere in between Matt Ryan and Aaron Rogers last year.

 

That is where I am looking.

 

We agree.

 

[ballpeen]

A quick review of Ryan last year...

 

round numbers

 

61%

 

3400 yds

16/11 TD/int

 

88 rating

 

 

 

All put together he looked good doing it...it wasn't a bunch of mop up stats....if that makes any sense.

[Guest AdaM]

A quick review of Ryan last year...

 

round numbers

 

61%

 

3400 yds

16/11 TD/int

 

88 rating

 

 

 

All put together he looked good doing it...it wasn't a bunch of mop up stats....if that makes any sense.

 

 

Might have to add a touch of leeway considering half of ryans games are in a warm dome, compared to half of quinn's games being on lake erie.

[ballpeen]

Might have to add a touch of leeway considering half of ryans games are in a warm dome, compared to half of quinn's games being on lake erie.

 

It is what it is Adam...DA didn't get much leeway concerning weather.....but I agree with you and will indeed take that in to consideration unlike some of the people around here.

 

But we are talking the 1st 7-8 games here...the weather is usually with-in a normal enough range it shouldn't have any major impact.

 

We catch every game in driving rain or 35 mile per hour winds..I will take that as a mitigating factor.

 

It is the only fair way to arrive at a conclusion.

 

 

I was at the stadium on Sunday. Weather wasn't a issue.

[Guest ATENEARS]

Might have to add a touch of leeway considering half of ryans games are in a warm dome, compared to half of quinn's games being on lake erie.

 

Ok, we are up to 136 asterisks next to Quinns name now ...

 

 

 

...

134.) DA laughed at him and called him Garo.

135.) The math was wrong, he did have a good game.

136.) He has to play football outside.

137.)

[ballpeen]

What's weird is that if you go by just numbers, he's almost on pace for that.

 

Game 1

 

60% (can't multiply it out)

205 yards x 16 = 3200 yards

1/1 16/16

74 rating.

 

But as you said, it can't be mop up stats, and the TD ratio definitely has to improve. Which would improve the rating.

 

I agree, and why I said it had to be done in a legit fashion....not as a way to gig the guy, but we need to be real here.

 

I get every falcon games as the local game and see most of them at the bar where I watch the Browns...Ryan looked good. Real good with his stat line. Brady with the same stat line didn't look good.

 

It's why you have to use your eyes and watch games and not allow simple stats to blur the vision.

 

Stats are great, but they don't tell the whole story.

 

That is why i say keep your eye on the ball...that is what really counts....not the stat line in the paper on Monday morning.

 

[Guest AdaM]

All I'm saying is its not apples to apples to expect Quinn to have Ryans numbers. Although I'm pretty sure he will be in the ballpark.

[Riffer X]

Ok, we are up to 136 asterisks next to Quinns name now ...

 

 

 

...

134.) DA laughed at him and called him Garo.

135.) The math was wrong, he did have a good game.

136.) He has to play football outside.

137.)

 

And we're up to post 85 of you being a dickhead and calling anybody that's being realistic about Quinn's performance a queerfag. You want to proclaim it the worstest baddiest game ever by a QB and there is no nope left for us poor Browns fans. All some of us are doing is keeping it in perspective. You're way is a lot more fun for you though.

[hammertime]

Ok, we are up to 136 asterisks next to Quinns name now ...

 

 

 

...

134.) DA laughed at him and called him Garo.

135.) The math was wrong, he did have a good game.

136.) He has to play football outside.

137.) His advisors and mentors arn't avid, world renowned, self made Browns geniouses with lots of posts on brownsboard.com

 

 

[Guest ATENEARS]

Ate, maybe I'm wrong, but were you jumping DA's shit after one bad game? I mean, he had about 18 of them in a row, with the exception of the Giants game last year, so you had a lot of opportunities to catch up.

 

What's the beef with Quinn, given that DA sucks that bad? Too good looking? I actually think that's an issue for some.

 

I don't think I needed to say as much, not many were making excuses for him. However, I'm certain you and those other really super kids mentioned in the subject topic of the super cool thread had your share of lynchings over similar play, no?

[Bob806]

Hey, did any of the 137 include Shaun Smith's fist?

 

Go Browns, beat Denver's ass for once.

[medicineman]

The only stats I give a xxxx about is WINS! You can argue til we are all blue in the face and at the end all that matters is WINS. That is it! So I don't care who had better stats. Fuk Manning, Manning, and double fuk Tom Brady!

[Guest ATENEARS]

Hey, did any of the 137 include Shaun Smith's fist?

 

Go Browns, beat Denver's ass for once.

 

No, but we will add it as #141 ...

 

...

#138.) Contrary to popular belief, Brady Quinn, not the box jellyfish of northern Australia, is the most venomous creature on earth. Within 3 minutes of being scratched by Mr. Quinn, a human being experiences the following symptoms: fever, blurred vision, beard rash, tightness of the jeans, and the feeling of being repeatedly kicked through a car windshield.

#139.) Brady Quinn is not hung like a horse... horses are hung like Brady Quinn.

#140.) There are no steroids in baseball. Just players Brady Quinn has breathed on.

#141.) Shaun Smith once punched Brady Quinn in the face, This has been recorded by historians as the worst mistake anyone has ever made, Mr. Smith has never been seen again.

 

I don't know though, I think we may have gotton off track with our list ...

 

[Guest ATENEARS]

Also #142.) Superman has a pair of Brady Quinn pajamas.

 

#143.) Brady Quinn once bet NASA he could survive re-entry without a spacesuit. On July 19th, 2009, a naked Brady Quinn re-entered the earth's atmosphere, streaking over 14 states and reaching a temperature of 3000 degrees. An embarrassed NASA publically claimed it was a meteor, and still owes him a beer. It was this beer that Brady was thinking about when he mis-read Braylon Edwards route and threw the interception, therefor it has been voided from the stats, as it should be.

[Timugen]

#143.) Brady Quinn once bet NASA he could survive re-entry without a spacesuit. On July 19th, 2009, a naked Brady Quinn re-entered the earth's atmosphere, streaking over 14 states and reaching a temperature of 3000 degrees. An embarrassed NASA publically claimed it was a meteor, and still owes him a beer. It was this beer that Brady was thinking about when he mis-read Braylon Edwards route and threw the interception, therefor it has been voided from the stats, as it should be.

 

Well who could blame him...if it was a beer from NASA, then it would be the most technologically advanced, bestest beer in the history of forever....assuming the bottle doesn't explode in your hand.

 

[Guest AdaM]

#143.) Brady Quinn once bet NASA he could survive re-entry without a spacesuit. On July 19th, 2009, a naked Brady Quinn re-entered the earth's atmosphere, streaking over 14 states and reaching a temperature of 3000 degrees. An embarrassed NASA publically claimed it was a meteor, and still owes him a beer. It was this beer that Brady was thinking about when he mis-read Braylon Edwards route and threw the interception, therefor it has been voided from the stats, as it should be.

 

 

Of course your story involves male nudity, lol.

[Guest ATENEARS]

Of course your story involves male nudity, lol.

 

 

Which brings us to #144:

 

#144.) Brady Quinn’s slow first half could be contributed to him eating a whole cake after his pre-game meal, and before his teammates could tell him there was a male-stripper in it.

[Vegasdogg]

I don't think I needed to say as much, not many were making excuses for him.

There aren't many to be made for him. He could not elevate his play against good teams, and didn't show promise of improvement in any of his deficiences. We made an awful lot of excuses for DA in 2007. Many of us were all over the defense, and there were plenty of people stoked about DA. He just could not improve. He didn't improve.

 

 

[Dave]

What I haven't seen much in the articles about the game I've read is the performance of Mack at center. We played a lot of shotgun, including the WildDawg formations and from where I was sitting (sec 127 row 6) I saw a ton of high snaps. Snaps that took way too long to get to the quarterback. Those precious few seconds Quinn and Cribbs had to waste keeping their eyes on the ball, waiting for it to get to them from center seemed like a big reason why we didn't go down field as much as some would have liked. If your eyes are on the ball why the receiver is running his route and the defense is showing their coverage, you're not going to be as confident going down field.

I saw most of the Browns drives from the view of the umpire because the team was always going toward the west end zone. The lone exception was the Quinn interception. You wouldn't have been able to tell from watching on TV but the pass was thrown before Edwards was even 5 yards into his route. It was touch pass/lob that the receiver has to run under in the right spot to catch. Edwards never turned to look for the ball until he had pass the cornerback, as the cornerback broke outside to intercept the ball. There's no way Quinn could have been responsible, outside of physically walking over to Edwards and confirming the route he was going to run. At least from my angle, that's how I saw it.

[Guest Masters]

What I haven't seen much in the articles about the game I've read is the performance of Mack at center. We played a lot of shotgun, including the WildDawg formations and from where I was sitting (sec 127 row 6) I saw a ton of high snaps. Snaps that took way too long to get to the quarterback. Those precious few seconds Quinn and Cribbs had to waste keeping their eyes on the ball, waiting for it to get to them from center seemed like a big reason why we didn't go down field as much as some would have liked. If your eyes are on the ball why the receiver is running his route and the defense is showing their coverage, you're not going to be as confident going down field.

I saw most of the Browns drives from the view of the umpire because the team was always going toward the west end zone. The lone exception was the Quinn interception. You wouldn't have been able to tell from watching on TV but the pass was thrown before Edwards was even 5 yards into his route. It was touch pass/lob that the receiver has to run under in the right spot to catch. Edwards never turned to look for the ball until he had pass the cornerback, as the cornerback broke outside to intercept the ball. There's no way Quinn could have been responsible, outside of physically walking over to Edwards and confirming the route he was going to run. At least from my angle, that's how I saw it.

 

One of the articles about covering Mangini's post game/Monday presser noted the parts on Mack. While not specifically saying high snaps, he seemed to allude to Mack having some struggles with the snaps and snap count.

 

On the INT, Jason covered it in another thread. It seems the read error was still on Quinn, in that he thought the coverage was man, but it was some sort of cover 3 (at least for the CB and safties). So BE going inside should have been the right "sight adjustment". Seems to me the kind of thing that a QB is only going to read correctly w/ time and experience under center.

 

****EDIT**** It's actually this thread Jason covered it in

[Dave]

I just finished reading Jason's analysis. Pretty good stuff, I'm not that good at breaking down defenses so outside of Madden terminology, there's no way I'd honestly know a cover 3 man from a tampa 2. I only reported what it looked like from my seat. It appeared that Quinn threw the ball well before Braylon decided where he was going. It looked like Braylon saw the corner take away the outside so he broke slightly inside/straight down the field. At that point the ball was already in the air and the corner was already on the outside looking in so he easily saw what Braylon didn't. I agree with you, reps in practice and experience under center will hopefully get these things ironed out. At the end of the day, it was a 30 yard "punt" though, that put the Vikings down at the 12 yard line. The shame is that the defense didn't stop them with a 3 and out. The Vikes drove the length of the field for the TD, allowing the 2 Viking fans in front of me, and the two Viking fans behind me to remind me again how great their team is. This is the kind of scenario where the good teams rely on the defense to bail them out.

I just wish this was the old stadium, then I could have shut those 4 idiots up, dawg pound style.

[Bronx Cheer]

Are you sure that was Cover 3 on that play? I am watching the reply of the play( http://www.nfl.com/videos/cleveland-browns...-vs-Browns-2009 ) and I am missing the cover 3 on this. I see the saftey on BE's side creaping up to the line and taking away a quick slant, 2 LBs following the both TE's release on the right side (MLB and OLB) and the other LB come up across the LOS. Doesn't seem like much of a cover 3 to me (maybe one of those variations on it?).

 

But I do see the window for a rope pass to BE on the inside. Of course I also see BE getting the CB to bite on the inside, and BE flashing like he is going outside but stays on his inside path.

 

I also think it is unlikely to be cover 3 - there is no other defender within 10 yards of BE (safety #25 only comes into the picture well after the interception has been made). Not only was he out of the shot entirely, but he was not nearly deep enough (he comes running in well after the interception has been made and is clearly running away from the line of scrimmage.) If it was a cover 3, then it was a piss poor one considering how little help the corner got against our #1 receiver. In any event, we'll never know the coverage for sure short of reviewing video of a bird's eye view of the entire play or an admission by the Vikes.

 

My best guess is that the bolded comment above is why they those people are saying it is at least partially BE's fault - BE either made a triple move (huh?) and faked out both the corner and his QB, or he tried to make a double move, was cut off by the corner and then broke off his route. That video clearly shows BE fake in, then cut out (he then leaves the frame of the screen on the out cut), but when the video next shows him after the pass was thrown he has clearly broken inside at some point. On a sight adjustment play, making a triple move is a no-no. My best guess is that if it is BE's fault, the latter happened - he tried to run a deep route on a double move but broke off the route after getting cut off by or tangled with the corner. Nobody makes a triple move on a audible.

 

 

[Vegasdogg]

I also think it is unlikely to be cover 3 - there is no other defender within 10 yards of BE (safety #25 only comes into the picture well after the interception has been made). Not only was he out of the shot entirely, but he was not nearly deep enough (he comes running in well after the interception has been made and is clearly running away from the line of scrimmage.) If it was a cover 3, then it was a piss poor one considering how little help the corner got against our #1 receiver. In any event, we'll never know the coverage for sure short of reviewing video of a bird's eye view of the entire play or an admission by the Vikes.

If I'm not mistaken, Cover 3 in this case meant the CB gave BE the inside because he had deep 3rd responsibility (the opposite CB have that 3rd) and the Safety deep middle. The reason you don't see that Safety until late is because, as JJ said, Quinn looked right and that look brought the deep Safety over to that side. So if this is all correct, than the play BE had was inside on the CB. Thus Quinn mis-read the coverage. Not sure what he thought he saw on the right in terms of coverage, but it didn't translate to the left, that's for sure.

 

If it were man than Brady hits the fade and lets BE jump it. BE ran a pretty good route to sell it like it was man, and he had position - perfect position. In fact that looked like 6.

 

Cover 3 is 3 deep 3rds. It might look like man, but the corner giving him the inside, coupled with the other S coming up pre-snap covering the flat, gives an indication of Cover 3.