Take Tim Couch out and put in Derek Anderson

[cmac12]

Where is Shep? Vacation?

[Greythan]

Sev, here's a quote from you earlier in this thread:

 

I am not ready to concede this season because some fan base bought into the first round hype created by ND's media department and Charlie I can develop "nfl ready pro style" qbs from college.... How is that working out for Notre Dame? Anyone.... Anyone Bueller.... bueller....

I apologize if I'm not following your logic but you seem to consistenly refer to the non-football related factors such as fan sentiment as the primary reason for personnel decisions. I think you WAY over weight them in a failed attempt to make things too complex. The fundamentals of personnel decisions are pretty simple: play the best guy. All other factors are severly discounted in the equation. Why? Nothing generates revenue more than winning. We're a prime example. Most of us are multi-generation Browns fans I'd guess. This team has a heritage of winning. A dated heritage of course, but its there none the less.

 

Use the Pirates from MLB as an example. They've pushed their fan base too far. The high times of the 70's with Willie Stargell, Roberto Clemente and Al Oliver have faded. This is an organization that makes personnel decisions not on talent, but on payroll. (Of course its somewhat a fatal situation for the small market team.) Their attendance (and revenues) have shrunk and expense management (back to payroll) becomes even more dire.

 

The Browns still enjoy a solid, middle of the pack franchise value even though we didn't have a team for several years and have been downright awful since our return. We're seventh in terms of value. The teams above us are either larger market franchises and/or franchises with a better legacy of winning.

 

Just win baby. Its a famous quote for a reason. (Even though the guy has since lost his mind apparently.)

 

So, asserting that fan sentiment or whatever other hocus pocus is even a significant contributor to Mangini's decision on who starts seems unfounded.

 

Sorry.

 

Now, as for Quinn being on the bench the last two years that's apples and oranges. Quinn wasn't benched going into his fifth season, after nearly 30 starts and a trip to the Pro Bowl. Quinn was "benched" as a rookie/2nd year QB. That's like comparing guys like Carson Palmer or Aaron Rogers for sitting their first year or two. Bad argument.

[Greythan]

Sony,

 

Why did Ozzie Newsome cut DA in the then QB starved Baltimore?

 

Why did RAC bench DA last year?

 

Why did Savage draft a QB in the first round two years ago?

 

Why did Mangini decide to start Quinn?

[Greythan]

Where is Shep? Vacation?

He indicated he was leaving the board.

[Sony Reed]

Ahem.....I love when old friends show up (and change history). Who could it be knocking on my door.

 

First off, I have only been on the board under the screen name Masters since Oct of 08'. Pretty sure we weren't talking about Charlie Frye. Before that, I didn't post much at all on this board. I was on another forum. So who could you be.... anyway I digress.

 

I have never said or insisted Frye was much better than DA. But rather that DA wasn't better, especially when looking beyond that day and what they could mold into. Last time I checked DA has lost camp battles to said Charlie Frye, and Quinn. Also, pretty sure he now shares the same job as Frye, back up QB on bad NFL team.

 

I am quite curious how on one hand you can mock someone for thinking some NFL team might have offered a 1st and 3rd for DA when CLE tagged him w/ that value when he was a RFA, then on the other go on about how DA is good. So he's good, just not good enough for another QB starved NFL team to give up a 1st and 3rd rounder? I am pretty certain that most NFL teams would gladly give that up for a QB they think is a candiate for the pro bowl every year.

 

How many arguments did you have with Shep and myself when you were posting a few years ago under the other name mikmas I do believe that was you telling Shep and I how good Frye was when Shep was telling you he was terrible so don't try to say you came here in Oct 08, you were here before then just admit you were wrong about Frye and move on. Tell me when did Frye have a season like DA in 2007? Only in his dreams

 

Anderson is better than Quinn but Savage was dumb to give Anderson that contract and he was not worth a 1st and 3rd round pick which is why no team offered such a silly trade.

 

 

[Guest Masters]

How many arguments did you have with Shep and myself when you were posting a few years ago under the other name mikmas I do believe that was you telling Shep and I how good Frye was when Shep was telling you he was terrible so don't try to say you came here in Oct 08, you were here before then just admit you were wrong about Frye and move on. Tell me when did Frye have a season like DA in 2007? Only in his dreams

 

Anderson is better than Quinn but Savage was dumb to give Anderson that contract and he was not worth a 1st and 3rd round pick which is why no team offered such a silly trade.

 

Perhaps a few, when I would pop in here (you will have to forgive that you weren't memorable to me). I don't need you to tell me I was here, as I told you that in my post (I said I didn't post here much under the other name).

 

Sure, I was wrong about Frye panning out into an NFL starter. And?

 

So what of DA's 2007 season? It was really good run of games. But as expected, the clock struck midnight. It doesn't change the reality today now does it?

 

Anderson is better than Quinn based on? One good streatch of games? So again, DA isn't a QB worth a 1st and 3rd round picks (pro bowl 2007 season) by any QB starved team, but he's who you want to invest in as the long term solution at QB. Point being, neither looks the part, but Quinn has to see the field in order for anyone to find out. Which is why in a camp draw, the job goes to Quinn. The extra maybe 2 wins DA might get you today does nothing for the teams future.

 

Remember, DA did nothing with nothing last year, so why would he be able to do something now if he was in?

[Sony Reed]

Sony,

 

Why did Ozzie Newsome cut DA in the then QB starved Baltimore?

 

Why did RAC bench DA last year?

 

Why did Savage draft a QB in the first round two years ago?

 

Why did Mangini decide to start Quinn?

 

I think Ozzie cut DA because he did not think he would become a good QB, but because of the Ravens Savage signed Anderson to that stupid deal because he feared the Cowboys would sign DA and trade him to the Ravens

 

RAC, was not a coach who had a clue on the offensive side of the ball so his opinios of QB leave much to be desired, however I believe that DA saved RAC's job with his play in 2007

 

Savage drafted a QB in the 1st round 2 years ago because he did not believe Frye was the answer ( correct ) or he had the QB this team needed on the roster, once again I believe the QB that Save wanted was Russell and not Frye but look at Savage's history of QB's drafted and thats not very good

 

I really believe the reason BQ was named the starter was because of the fans and Lerner, no I have no proof but thats what I believe, I also believe if Mangini thought Quinn was so much better than DA he would not have waited until before the opener to name a starter JMO, I feel that Mangini is not really happy with either QB and he figured lets start Quinn so we can see if he or can't do the job and we get our QB next year which is what I believe will happen.

 

Don't get me wrong I am not saying DA is the answer, all I am saying is DA gives us the best chance to win this year because today DA is much much better than Quinn but I don't see a franchise quarterback a guy that can consistantly lead us to the playoffs in Anderson or Quinn

[Sony Reed]

Perhaps a few, when I would pop in here (you will have to forgive that you weren't memorable to me). I don't need you to tell me I was here, as I told you that in my post (I said I didn't post here much under the other name).

 

Sure, I was wrong about Frye panning out into an NFL starter. And?

 

So what of DA's 2007 season? It was really good run of games. But as expected, the clock struck midnight. It doesn't change the reality today now does it?

 

Anderson is better than Quinn based on? One good streatch of games? So again, DA isn't a QB worth a 1st and 3rd round picks (pro bowl 2007 season) by any QB starved team, but he's who you want to invest in as the long term solution at QB.

 

Where did I say I wanted DA as the long term answer.................I was on here in March saying the Browns should trade both Quinn and Anderson and sign a veteran and draft Mark Sanchez who I said at the time will be a Pro Bowl type QB in a few years in my opinion

 

I don't think Mangini is that excited about either QB on this roster as the QB he wants, I also believe the Browns made a huge mistake in not drafting Sanchez because what we got in return was quantity but not quality, when Sanchez is leading the Jets to the playoffs and a Superbowl who will remember the players we got from the Jets or Alex Mack, now come 2010 we have to draft another QB so we are looking at 2012 before we hopefully can contend, whereas drafting Sanchez would have speeded thing up IMO.

 

What I don't get is why you Masters and other were so harsh on Anderson and downplay the great 2007 season he had and yet look to make excuses for Quinn's crappy play, if DA had played anything the last 2 weeks like Brady people would have buried Anderson on this forum.

 

Now I ask you do you really see anything in Quinn to make you believe he can be more than just a manager of a game?

 

Btw, I'm just busting your balls about Frye, we are all wrong on players all the time, none of us are professionals that why we hang out on these boards

 

[Lumbergh]

I think Ozzie cut DA because he did not think he would become a good QB

 

The reason Anderson left Baltimore is because Boller got hurt in week 2 and Ozzie signed Kordell Stewart as an emergency backup.

 

To make room they tried to slide Anderson onto the practice squad but during the 24hr waiver period Savage made a claim on him.

 

Asshole (b-lick) has addressed this and his reasoning is that they thought Anderson was too green to play in week 3 of his rookie year and that they thought they could get him onto the practice squad without being claimed by another team.

 

Keep in mind that rookies coming from schools on terms rather than semesters are not eligible to attend OTA's or minicamps prior to the end of the school year in mid-June. Oregon State is one of those schools.

[Legacy Fan]

Listen, I can only go by what I have seen and he just can't play on this level. I will GLAAADLY admit I'm wrong if he manages to make a difference on any team in the league. I hope I am wrong and that difference happens here. But right now, there is nothing he does that is saying he has any of the essential tools to do the job.

 

I also refered back to Geythans post and basically it says "Quinn is in so he's obviously better!" Not only does that not answer the question, but it also way over simplifies the discussion.

 

Now, since I clearly don't know what I'm watching maybe you can help me? What is it that you have seen from him that says he can do this? You can just borrow one of the 50 other people's answer if you need help. Or you can use this handy guide below.

 

Which stock answer will mopaji get from Legacy Fan?

 

A. Another 5th grade insult

B. The silent treatment

C. "We don't know yet"

or

D. I refuse to look or listen objectively because I really need to justify this $120.00 Jersey purchase. And since I already scratched off the Holcombe to make it read Quinn the fabric is starting wear a little. And I just can't bank on Tebow wearing #10 next year.

Seriously? Not even going to try to search?

 

Ok, then. My argument for playing QUinn is the same it has been since this douche-fest started. And well before your lack of football acumen barged on the scene. It uses the same criteria that is used when any player is drafted to the NFL. He displayed a certain degree and amount of qualities for a specific skill set that have trended success in the NFL. He put those on Display against Denver last year. And now that the coaches feel he gives the best chance for a W, it's time to see if he can do it for a season - or a career.

 

So far not yet. But it's been 4 games. He played 15-18 under Willingsham and didn't amount to much then either. Then he got a new coach, offense, attitude, and the team built a chemistry & confidence. Voila. Success.

 

The team is at that point right now. Getting BE 90+ is a good start to getting this offense moving.

 

Stock answer? Well guess what mopaji? Since you insist on referring to yourself in the 3rd person, I'll be addressing you henceforth (assuming it warrants the effort) as "Stockroom."

 

So Stockroom, as for my jersey selection, that's quite the "stock" assumption. I'd just as quickly take my Carl "Big Daddy" Hairston autograph and dirty sanchez it across your face before I ever bought a QB jersey.

[Guest Masters]

Where did I say I wanted DA as the long term answer.................I was on here in March saying the Browns should trade both Quinn and Anderson and sign a veteran and draft Mark Sanchez who I said at the time will be a Pro Bowl type QB in a few years in my opinion

 

I don't think Mangini is that excited about either QB on this roster as the QB he wants, I also believe the Browns made a huge mistake in not drafting Sanchez because what we got in return was quantity but not quality, when Sanchez is leading the Jets to the playoffs and a Superbowl who will remember the players we got from the Jets or Alex Mack, now come 2010 we have to draft another QB so we are looking at 2012 before we hopefully can contend, whereas drafting Sanchez would have speeded thing up IMO.

 

What I don't get is why you Masters and other were so harsh on Anderson and downplay the great 2007 season he had and yet look to make excuses for Quinn's crappy play, if DA had played anything the last 2 weeks like Brady people would have buried Anderson on this forum.

 

Now I ask you do you really see anything in Quinn to make you believe he can be more than just a manager of a game?

 

Btw, I'm just busting your balls about Frye, we are all wrong on players all the time, none of us are professionals that why we hang out on these boards

 

I wouldn't say I was harsh on Anderson. I simply pointed out the flaws in his game and that history showed they would remain in his game. So far, that is still the reality. I don't actually down play the 2007 season, unless it is in response to it being played up too much. I have yet to make an actual excuse for Quinn poor play so far. I have also called it poor play. If DA had played anything like Quinn has played the last two weeks people would have buried DA on here? They have and I am one of them. See games in 2007 against BUF, CIN, and SF, then 2008 PIT, BAL, WAS, half against HOU, and IND. Oh, he has played as bad or worse. The same "excuses" being used today for Quinn were used for DA.

 

To date in NFL game, no I have not seen anythign to make me believe Quinn can be more than a game manager, aside from the DEN game last season. But it is early and a bad football team, so we shall see in a the next 6 weeks or so.

 

I would not assume Sanchez would have the same success here as with the Jets. The Jets are a team that was sitting a 8-3 last year and knocked off the Titans. If Favre's arm doesn't fall off, that team was going deep in the playoffs. That's not exactly the team the Browns are.

 

No worries on the ball busting. It's not like I take things on a message board serious.

[Drunkandstoopid]

How is that any different now? Last year he at least had BE and Winslow. Now it is down to just BE.

 

The problems on O for CLE run deeper than just the QB. It was the case last year and remains the case this year.

Last year BE missed nearly all preseason, hadn't practiced in weeks, Winslow had some kind of testicle/brain fart thing going on, Stallworth was injured, and DA MISSED most of preseason and couldn't practice outside due to light sensitivity from the concussion the 3-4 practices he had prior to the start of the season.

 

This year the QBs and receivers were all around and healthy the entire preseason (OK, it was a weird revolving door preseason as far as who actually got starters reps), and it appears our O still sucks. The only thing that's the same is the suckage.

[Drunkandstoopid]

Are you REALLY THIS STUPID???? REALLY?

 

Do you not get WHY we started saying Frye was better than Anderson? do you really think we believe it?

 

 

NO we started that little game because all the DA backers kept wanting to say "BUT BUT BUT, Crennel is chosing DA over Quinn and he's a HC and your not, so he should know more and that proves Quinn isn't any good."

 

SO then we'd have fun saying that RAC also chose Frye over Anderson, so that must mean Frye is better.

 

And now, a second coaching staff has chosen a different QB over Anderson. Gee what does that say about anderson?

 

It says NOTHING. Just like when all the DA backers were saying Quinn was on the bench behind DA it really didn't mean as much as they thought it did.

 

Got it now?

 

So basically nothing you say can be taken at face value. OK then.

 

[osusev]

Greythan now you are going to another post within this thread which has nothing to do with my problem with your argument or the fact you attempted to cherry pick one variable and attempt to make it my entire statement.....

 

as for your apples to oranges you are trying to switch/add context of your original statement/conclusion of who is benched and who is playing.... which again is your m.o.

 

Even more funny is now you are moving to another topic of total franchise value vs it correlary relationship to winning in pro sports which is a whole different topic one of which I was not even talking about.

 

NOTHING is simple when it comes to an entertainment based business in terms of hundreds of millions of dollars.... if you think it is as simple when it comes to career coaches vs owners vs player vs fan expectations and all of the possible influences that can alter the on field product than you must not have a grasp of basic business principles or even basic risk assessment.

[Sony Reed]

Are you REALLY THIS STUPID???? REALLY?

 

Do you not get WHY we started saying Frye was better than Anderson? do you really think we believe it?

 

 

NO we started that little game because all the DA backers kept wanting to say "BUT BUT BUT, Crennel is chosing DA over Quinn and he's a HC and your not, so he should know more and that proves Quinn isn't any good."

 

SO then we'd have fun saying that RAC also chose Frye over Anderson, so that must mean Frye is better.

 

And now, a second coaching staff has chosen a different QB over Anderson. Gee what does that say about anderson?

 

It says NOTHING. Just like when all the DA backers were saying Quinn was on the bench behind DA it really didn't mean as much as they thought it did.

 

Got it now?

 

Why do you have to always call people stupid or other names, I have read many of your post and you are always calling people names

 

You are not the most knowledgeable guy here so I would not be calling people stupid

 

Do you have some type of issues that you have to continue calling people names......Unhappy home life? No friends? Mental issues?

 

I suggest you visit a doctor and seek professional help for your problems........somethings not right fella

 

And if you expect anyone to believe that horse crap story about having fun saying this or that about Frye over DA.....ok ok get some help dude you need it

 

[hiwaygal]

you forgot to add the smiley, JADBF!

 

[Greythan]

Greythan now you are going to another post within this thread which has nothing to do with my problem with your argument or the fact you attempted to cherry pick one variable and attempt to make it my entire statement.....

 

as for your apples to oranges you are trying to switch/add context of your original statement/conclusion of who is benched and who is playing.... which again is your m.o.

 

Even more funny is now you are moving to another topic of total franchise value vs it correlary relationship to winning in pro sports which is a whole different topic one of which I was not even talking about.

 

NOTHING is simple when it comes to an entertainment based business in terms of hundreds of millions of dollars.... if you think it is as simple when it comes to career coaches vs owners vs player vs fan expectations and all of the possible influences that can alter the on field product than you must not have a grasp of basic business principles or even basic risk assessment.

Sev, I'll just concede whatever point it is you are trying to make. I simply don't understand you so it must be that I'm the dumber one. Sorry.

 

The reason Anderson left Baltimore is because Boller got hurt in week 2 and Ozzie signed Kordell Stewart as an emergency backup.

 

To make room they tried to slide Anderson onto the practice squad but during the 24hr waiver period Savage made a claim on him.

 

Asshole (b-lick) has addressed this and his reasoning is that they thought Anderson was too green to play in week 3 of his rookie year and that they thought they could get him onto the practice squad without being claimed by another team.

 

Keep in mind that rookies coming from schools on terms rather than semesters are not eligible to attend OTA's or minicamps prior to the end of the school year in mid-June. Oregon State is one of those schools.

Can you imagine the field day Lum would have with this explanation if it had been Quinn not making the Ravens?

 

Fact remains, the Ravens didn't have shit for QB's and they took the chance of losing the guy instead of keeping him on the roster over other guys.

 

 

[Drunkandstoopid]

Sev, I'll just concede whatever point it is you are trying to make. I simply don't understand you so it must be that I'm the dumber one. Sorry.

 

 

Can you imagine the field day Lum would have with this explanation if it had been Quinn not making the Ravens?

 

Fact remains, the Ravens didn't have shit for QB's and they took the chance of losing the guy instead of keeping him on the roster over other guys.

As far as that explanation of Lum's goes, there were reports coming out of Baltimore that that was exactly the case. I found a few on the net in a brief search, here's one from a Baltimore fan blog: http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2006/12/der...t-got-away.html

[Mark O]

19 pages of QB bullshit....very impressive.

 

Good to see that the season has put all this QB talk to rest.

 

 

[Greythan]

Agreed MarkO. I enjoy the debate. ::shrug::

 

D&S, here's what we know about the Ravens at the time: a) they had no QB and they let DA get away. No way Newsome does that if he has any conviction that DA was their answer at QB. Anythinig else is justification/spin that as I stated, Lum would LAMBASTE if the QB in question was NOT DA (i.e., Quinn).

[Solon16]

 

 

QUOTE (Solon16 @ Sep 21 2009, 01:19 PM)

Don't you guys remember that Mangini told Lerner..." He can win with Quinn"....you know the reason he got hired....Romeo didn't play him for a reason...Savage Gave DA all that $ for a reason....2 more weeks of this crap tops!

 

 

 

 

Care to make a monetary wager on that?

 

 

 

Ummm..you were saying? FAIL