Relax... Sheesh

[BrownIndian]

Even if that were possible (let's just call it "highly unlikely") to what end? So you can release him in January? Derek Anderson is a boon to a bad team and a liability to a good one. It's like trying to put your basketball team over the top by adding Jason Kapono. You look like a genius some nights. But, over the long haul, it doesn't actually improve your team.

 

-jj

 

we are a bad team.

[Jason J]

we are a bad team.

 

You're right. And if the plan for this team was to go into 2010 offseason with the primary intention of getting their next franchise quarterback, I'd say start Anderson. In fact, if that's the case, they probably should've traded Quinn heading into training camp. It could've saved them a lot of time and trouble, and netted them a first day draft pick.

 

And I'm not saying that would've been a bad move. Quinn's got a long way to go to be a legitimate NFL quarterback.

 

And, had the management come out and said, "We've dealt Brady Quinn to XYZ team, and are heading into 2009 with D.A.," I could've supported that. I'm not sure that would've been fair to Derek Anderson. Knowing he didn't have a lot of good will built up anyway, sticking him out in front of a bad football team (again) could've done his career some damage. Plus, the fans would be all over him for every mistake. The only upside is the city wouldn't have the knight in shining armor behind him. So, he might get a little slack.

 

But when that quarterback competition went on as long as it did, you knew it wasn't going to be Anderson. If it was even close to obvious that Anderson's the guy... they could've gotten rid of Quinn for a song. Almost no cap hit whatsoever. But when they waited, and waited, and waited... you knew they weren't sold on DA. And if they're not sold on him, why start him? Why put him out there?

 

You can't just say, well here's our quarterback for this year... even though we need a better guy. I think there'd be a growing sentiment both internally and externally to have him replaced. The cards would be sort of stacked against him from day 1. Do you really want to stick a young guy out there just to demonstrate that you need to replace him? That's not healthy.

 

Sticking around, he has a chance re-build his reputation from the sideline. He can be a good teammate. He can study, he can learn. And, when he gets called on, can come in rattle the cage a little bit, and work on his career. Anderson has a chance to become one of the great relief pitchers in NFL history. He's just never been a great starter. And there isn't anything wrong with that. I don't know why people get upset with me when I say that. Kevin Faulk isn't a #1 Running Back. Nobody gets mad about that statement. Dick Lebeau is not a good head coach. Hell, every team has 3 quarterbacks. And it's going to be a good number of years before there are 90 quarterbacks in this league better than Derek Anderson. For crying out loud, Charlie Frye is in his 6th NFL season, and he hasn't done much of anything other than cash checks and swing by the emergency room once in a while. Derek Anderson's got a 29 touchdown season under his belt... and he only played 14 full games that year. He's got skills.

 

But let's not over do it. You don't build or re-build around Derek Anderson. But, he sure is great to have around.

 

-jj

[Solon16]

It's certainly possible. I think you have to look at the next 14 games. I think all the evidence the braintrust needs will be out there on the field in plain view. If Quinn's games 15 and 16 look like game 2... then you can bet quarterback will be at the top of the offseason list. That was just not an NFL-type effort.

 

But, I'm not sure the number of wins and losses will necessarily dictate what happens with Quinn. There have been instances where teams at the top of the draft didn't need to replace the quarterback. As a matter of fact, history tells us that you usually get 1 or 2 more cracks at it after you draft your "franchise" quarterback. The Raiders drafted Jemarcus Russel in 2007, and picked 4th the following year... but even if someone is not "bust potential", it happens.

 

In 2001 the Falcons drafted Michael Vick, and (had they not traded it to get him) would've drafted 5th in 2002. The Eagles drafted Donovan McNabb in 1999, and proceeded to draft 6th in 2000. The Colts drafted Peyton Manning in 1998, drafted 4th in 1999.

 

Now Quinn's not any of those guys. But he's also not likely the guy you've seen the last two weeks. You have to kind of play it out. You look at his assembled work at the end of the season and make an evaluation. The front office is going to have to determine what's the best course for the team going into 2010? It may well be a change at quarterback. It may not be. It's hard saying at this point. But that's why you don't make these decisions after week 2.

 

-jj

 

Thanks...I'll point out that in J. russels third year, the raiders again pick in top 10= QB sucks... Also point to Pittsburgh picking Roth,NYG picking manning, SD picking rivers, Atl picking Ryan, Balt picking Flacco, NYJ picking Sanchez, Etc...If you pick in top of the draft...your QB sucks. If you shy away from going back to QB after a bust....you delay getting considerably better, IMO. Now if the Browns are picking in top 5 next year...I believe our Qb's suck! Regarless of the Rb and RT situation. Quinn, if he doesn't shine VERY soon, will end up like David Carr,Joey Harrington,Kyle Boller, Alex Smith and Tim Couch.

 

I really thought BQ would drastically improve against the Broncs, but seemed even worse...I'll give him a couple more chances to change my mind but....i think we will need a Franchise Qb with #1 pick next year.

 

[Jason J]

Thanks...I'll point out that in J. russels third year, the raiders again pick in top 10= QB sucks... Also point to Pittsburgh picking Roth,NYG picking manning, SD picking rivers, Atl picking Ryan, Balt picking Flacco, NYJ picking Sanchez, Etc...If you pick in top of the draft...your QB sucks. If you shy away from going back to QB after a bust....you delay getting considerably better, IMO. Now if the Browns are picking in top 5 next year...I believe our Qb's suck! Regarless of the Rb and RT situation. Quinn, if he doesn't shine VERY soon, will end up like David Carr,Joey Harrington,Kyle Boller, Alex Smith and Tim Couch.

 

I really thought BQ would drastically improve against the Broncs, but seemed even worse...I'll give him a couple more chances to change my mind but....i think we will need a Franchise Qb with #1 pick next year.

 

Agreed... at least to the point that if the guy doesn't improve, the Browns need a quarterback. It's just a matter of how long that evaluation process lasts. I have a hunch, that the Mangini/Kokinis troupe may play this out for the full 16 games. The question is how much can Browns fans endure? History tells us quite a bit.

 

Of course, the kid may actually snap into shape. That's always a possibility. The question is, what are Mangini's expectations? And how does that differ from yours, mine, the fans, etc.? That's the stuff that's going to fill up this board.

 

-jj

[RestinPeace]

Starting Cribbs as WR has been a disaster, but I think that is what Mangini wanted to put him in his place. He simply doesn't care about W's, even with the flack he would take this year. I think we will come to a point, our entire first day of the draft sans Robiskie will be starting, but that does nothing for comfort of a poor year. Rebuilding from the bottom sucks, but this is the first "real" time we have tried IMO.

 

 

[Solon16]

Agreed... at least to the point that if the guy doesn't improve, the Browns need a quarterback. It's just a matter of how long that evaluation process lasts. I have a hunch, that the Mangini/Kokinis troupe may play this out for the full 16 games. The question is how much can Browns fans endure? History tells us quite a bit.

 

Of course, the kid may actually snap into shape. That's always a possibility. The question is, what are Mangini's expectations? And how does that differ from yours, mine, the fans, etc.? That's the stuff that's going to fill up this board.

 

-jj

 

Thoughts on Veikune,Robiske and MoMass? Thoughts on second rounders contributing right away?

[Greythan]

Yeah, but JJ...... DA is a playmaker!

 

Yeah, cheap shot at Z but the point is the same. I haven't seen anything in the first 2 games that would indicate putting in DA is the salve for all wounds.

 

I'm more than willing to cut Stan and other die hard, attend every game, season ticket holders a ton of slack on DA loyalty (Z, I'm not sure if you go to all the games). I did get that perspective from Stan in the other thread. Its a solid point. However, being cute and dismissing the supposed "BQ crowd" as out to lunch for wanting to give this guy some leash is just weak.

[miktoxic]

no matter what any of you say this team sucks. i'm friggin embarassed watching them amongst other teams' fans at my local sports bar here in ny. how come other front offices can choose head coaches that know what they're doing? we continuously throw snake eyes. we can't draft anyone to save our lives. start cleaning house on this lot of bums. lewis is finished. play the rookies. manginious my ass. my jet fan friends laugh in my face. they couldn't wait to get rid of him. show some friggin emotion at least.

[Solon16]

Thoughts on Veikune,Robiske and MoMass? Thoughts on second rounders contributing right away?

 

Bueller, Bueller

 

[Jason J]

Thoughts on Veikune,Robiske and MoMass? Thoughts on second rounders contributing right away?

 

I think you're going to start seeing more and more of them. The Mangini method has been to bring rookies along... but bits at a time. This is counter to Romeo Crennel's policy of, you can play when you can beat out the starter. Mangini's whole philosophy is situational. So you teach a young player 1 situation, master it, then let him do it. Then, you go to work on the next situation. I think you'll see Maiava and Veikune start to contribute in situational defense sooner than later. Probably as soon as next week. You've already seen Massoquoi situationally. And I'd doubt if Robiskie is far behind. But he has had problems getting separation. He's going to get an opportunity to do something, but it may not manifest itself in many reps.

 

With young players, Mangini wants to minimize weaknesses. So find them a way to contribute, and just have them do that for a while. Until you can get them to do something else perfectly. Then let them do that, too. Eventually, they'll play someone else out of reps, because they do something better than the starter. It really depends on the player. Darrelle Revis started for Mangini from the start. Vernon Gholston never did. Dustin Keller started 6 games as a rookie. It's just a matter of what you can contribute.

 

I think you'll start to see Francies as well. Hank Poteat is having all kinds of problems in man coverage. He's really a zone guy. And, at 32, the blitz coverages are a bit much to ask of him. They've also added a couple of other young guys to the defensive backfield that will start to show up on third downs. They've just got to be integrated.

 

-jj

 

[Guest Masters]

Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.

 

1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.

 

2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.

 

Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was the reasons solely, then he'd have the same stuggles this year, because the situation is the same.

 

The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.

[Jason J]

Bueller, Bueller

 

Sorry... somewhere in here I have to get some work done.

 

-jj

[Guest ATENEARS]

Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.

 

1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.

 

2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.

 

Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was those reasons solely, then he'd have the same this year, because the situation is the same this year.

 

The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.

 

I believe NFL DC's figured out how to play DA to his weaknesses ... but what QB hasn't been game planned like that? I still feel the problem was in our OC's coaching of DA, they never adjusted. Opposing defenses adjusted after his first 7-8 games of success and we bent over and took it.

 

Since we have returned to the league we have never dictated anything, always the team that has adjustments made to counter any success we've had in the first half and we always come away acting as if that wasn't fair ... THAT IF FOOTBALL!

 

You run something successful until they stop it, then you attack where they are rolling the man over from to counter whjat you are doing. You stay a step ahead of them.

 

I just thought we had something to work with in DA. We may have tried to make adjustments and he just couldn't play to his weaknesses, but if you are going to tell me it is in the touch of his short game, I'm going to laugh ... NFL professional experienced Head Coaches can't work with a 24yr old on throwing a screen? Seriously? Have you EVER heard of that ever happening in the NFL before?

 

I'd like to see what Anderson can do with this new coaching staff, or what they can do with him.

 

I just don't like Quinns game. For those that know me for the past decade know that I was vicious in my attack of Tim Couch well before he came out for the draft his Junior year ... I did not want that shit here, and still don't. West Coast offense is one thing, Dink-n-dunk is another.

[Guest Masters]

I believe NFL DC's figured out how to play DA to his weaknesses ... but what QB hasn't been game planned like that? I still feel the problem was in our OC's coaching of DA, they never adjusted. Opposing defenses adjusted after his first 7-8 games of success and we bent over and took it.

 

Since we have returned to the league we have never dictated anything, always the team that has adjustments made to counter any success we've had in the first half and we always come away acting as if that wasn't fair ... THAT IF FOOTBALL!

 

You run something successful until they stop it, then you attack where they are rolling the man over from to counter whjat you are doing. You stay a step ahead of them.

 

I just thought we had something to work with in DA. We may have tried to make adjustments and he just couldn't play to his weaknesses, but if you are going to tell me it is in the touch of his short game, I'm going to laugh ... NFL professional experienced Head Coaches can't work with a 24yr old on throwing a screen? Seriously? Have you EVER heard of that ever happening in the NFL before?

 

I'd like to see what Anderson can do with this new coaching staff, or what they can do with him.

 

I just don't like Quinns game. For those that know me for the past decade know that I was vicious in my attack of Tim Couch well before he came out for the draft his Junior year ... I did not want that shit here, and still don't. West Coast offense is one thing, Dink-n-dunk is another.

 

I agree, NFL DC's adjusted to DA's strengths and weaknesses. But I find it hard to believe no adjustment was made from late in 2007 and all threw last season. CLE had pass patterns being run to beat that coverage. That's where DA's scatter shot on the short and intermediate patterns reared it's ugly head and continued to. While I don't put much stock in the previous staff, they also weren't complete nuckle draggers.

 

While I never believed DA was going to work long term, I wanted him to as much as any other Browns fan. On the passing, Jason has ran this down before. Teaching a guy to get accurate on long passes is far easier than getting a guy more accurate on short/intermediate passes. It requires a lot more precision and isn't as teachable as one would like to believe.

 

While seeing DA w/ a new staff might have been good for a reality check for seeing who the real DA is, it seems this staff didn't feel that in DA they had some one they felt worth taking that look at.

[ballpeen]

If Quinn's games 15 and 16 look like game 2... then you can bet quarterback will be at the top of the offseason list. That was just not an NFL-type effort.

 

No way it gets to that point. BQ has until game 7-8.

 

If BQ is playing poorly, as he nears his incentive mark of 70% of snaps, the Browns would be crazy to allow that to kick in and jack his salary to 11 mil...unless they just plan to cut him loose. We aren't going to pay a guy 11 mil if he isn't the deal and nobody is going to trade for a 11 mil contract unless he is worth it, so cutting is the only real option.

 

Quinn better pick it up or he is on the bench my mid season for the rest of the season.

 

 

 

I say mid season to allow some cushion in the event DA got hurt and missed a game or two.

 

No way the Browns allow this type of play to linger 15 games in to the season and have to pay the guy double because they did.

 

 

If Quinn has a poor performance next week, I expect we will hear the boo's when he returns home against Cincy if he is still wallowing away..

[Sez.EJ]

I think Jason may have written the end all, be all post.. No more posts need to be written for the rest of the year.

 

 

**** IF THERE IS A POST OF THE YEAR AWARD. JASON J. GETS IT.

HE ABSOLUTLEY NAILED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[choco]

no matter what any of you say this team sucks.

are you even following the conversation, or you really think your the first to say this?

 

 

[Jason J]

No way it gets to that point. BQ has until game 7-8.

 

If BQ is playing poorly, as he nears his incentive mark of 70% of snaps, the Browns would be crazy to allow that to kick in and jack his salary to 11 mil...unless they just plan to cut him loose. We aren't going to pay a guy 11 mil if he isn't the deal and nobody is going to trade for a 11 mil contract unless he is worth it, so cutting is the only real option.

 

Quinn better pick it up or he is on the bench my mid season for the rest of the season.

 

 

 

I say mid season to allow some cushion in the event DA got hurt and missed a game or two.

 

No way the Browns allow this type of play to linger 15 games in to the season and have to pay the guy double because they did.

 

 

If Quinn has a poor performance next week, I expect we will hear the boo's when he returns home against Cincy if he is still wallowing away..

 

Yeah, that's a bit of a semantic argument. Quinn would never get to perform like he did yesterday for sixteen weeks. Mostly because he'd never survive. But, that said, what I was saying was, if he hasn't shown adequate improvement by then (whatever that may be), then Quinn is long gone from this franchise.

 

 

-jj

[Riffer X]

I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.

 

I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.

 

We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.

 

Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.

 

They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.

 

I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.

 

Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?

 

I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.

[Lumbergh]

We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light

 

you can say that again.

 

[Riffer X]

you can say that again.

 

We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light

[FairHooker11]

We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.

 

Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.

 

 

I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.

 

 

We should see timing improve, and more continuity in the offensive game plan, will pay dividends to the defense staying off the field and not tire out in the 4th.... I agree with JJ and Riff - this will get better!

[Greythan]

Kudos Riffer. Nothing like seeing that middle school baby get his ass handed to him.

[Flugel]

Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.

 

1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.

 

2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.

 

Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was the reasons solely, then he'd have the same stuggles this year, because the situation is the same.

 

The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.

 

 

DA stunk in weeks 1-3 last year too. At this time last year we only had 16 points. Then in week 3 we only added 10 more points. Against Baltimore DA threw their D more TD passes than our receivers right? So if he looked THAT terrible in starts #19-21, we saw first hand why 31 other GMs said "no thanks" to his brief availability this offseason.

 

Here's my concerns in this order:

1) Why the HELL don't we already know if Quinn is the answer or not in season #3? It's been a colossal screwup from the getgo. We should be upgrading an already good chemistry established like Atlanta just did. I ask this because Matt Sanchez, who was on our doorstep, looks to be the REAL deal. Now if we suck again - there might not be anyone of his caliber on our doorstep and QBs just haven't grown on trees for us in the last 20 years. I'm not as patient as the fans saying "what are you worrying about? We're rebuilding!" Gee ya think? How long do you want to be patient with rebuilding? 20 more years of "it's okay" doesn't excite me. The last consistently good football we were treated to was in the mid-late 80s. We're closing in on 2010 so that's a long time ago folks. Our QB position HAS to improve so we better hope Quinn is the answer - unless Ratliff is the next Brian Sipe nobody saw coming.

 

2) Speedy X-factor at RB that can change the way a defense aligns itself or sets up game plans. Anyone remember how Marshall Faulk's 4.2 forty speed punished the blitz? It's an ENORMOUS reason teams stopped wanting to blitz Warner in St Louis. Our division WANTS us and dares us to line up a big back that takes forever to get to the line of scrimmage. I don't HATE Jamal - I just don't see us being very good if he's our RB dominating all the carries. He's clearly not who he was. Adrian Peterson is who Jamal USED TO BE. That's a weapon of mass destruction on Sundays.

 

3) TE - Sorry folks, but Troy Aikman's favorite receiver was Jay Novacek, which in turn made life wonderful for Michael Irvin, Alvin Harper and whoever. In spite of what's been said, it's an important prong of attack in the passing game. Unfortunately, if you polled the 32 NFL GMs and asked them to rank the top pass catching TEs in order - I doubt we'd see Robert Royal's name in the top 25.

 

4) Experience working together: Furrey is new, MoMass is new, Robiskie is new, Royal is new, Mack is new, St Clair is new, Womack is new, Fraley's position is new, the OC is new, the Head Coach is new, etc. This has to impact chemistry considerably.

 

5) This team could use better on-the-field leadership from it's experienced vets IMO. When this really stands out is when momentum is shifting or some degree of adversity is unfolding. You usually see STRONG leadership on successful teams and people just putting their time in on teams going in the wrong direction.

- Tom F.

 

[Flugel]

They are not near as bad as they look, and I believe that. They are not as good as I was hoping, but nonetheless, there were plays left on the field yesterday. I'll give three examples besides the inevitable of Jamal getting 2 yards out of 25 from time to time.

 

I'm very disappointed. Like most, I prefer to be optimistic to a fault every year. I still think they can turn this around, I don't think it's as dire as even JJ is portraying it. The NFL is about making plays and capitalizing on situations and I think they can get better. Denver was 9-0 in home openers coming in with an emotional Shannon Sharpe induction etc. It's hard to play out there, always has been.

 

Thanks for the pick-me-up Riff! I needed to read this because it seems alot more level-headed than I am capable of being at this time. You made some excellent points though that reminded me sometimes it's a game of inches won by the team that does all the little things better. For example, getting the snap up by 1 foot, being 1 step quicker so Braylon doesn't get tripped up, or getting the throw just 3 feet over and we're looking at different outcomes.

 

I always seem to get my game face back by the weekend regardless of how hard I take a loss.

- Tom F.

[Tobalaz]

I told my kids for every game the Browns lose they will lose one toy, ,for every time Quinn takes a sack they will get one lick with the belt. Every 3 and out is another lick with the belt.

 

Somebody has to pay. That's why I had kids.

LMAO!

That's priceless.

[DeadWombat]

I told my kids for every game the Browns lose they will lose one toy, ,for every time Quinn takes a sack they will get one lick with the belt. Every 3 and out is another lick with the belt.

 

Somebody has to pay. That's why I had kids.

 

 

 

Sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than punishing our livers like the rest of us do.

[Jason J]

I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.

 

I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.

 

We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.

 

Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.

 

They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.

 

I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.

 

Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?

 

I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.

 

 

Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.

 

His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.

 

Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.

 

After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.

 

You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.

 

I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.

 

Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.

 

So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.

 

Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.

 

Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.

 

There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.

 

-jj

[Guest Masters]

Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state.

 

Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

 

[Legacy Fan]

Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't.

-jj

 

I think that is a lack of chemistry/reps problem. That comes in game situations too - not just practice. This last game went a long way in building the chem between Quinn & BE, imo.

 

As the chemistry builds, the playbook opens up. As the playbook opens up, we start seeing some TD's I believe.

 

Because Quinn was absolutely that "swaggering, shot taking QB" when he had #83 doing this twice a game:

 

As you were saying, winning helps cement the bricks together that are being put in place right now.