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Relax... Sheesh


Jason J

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The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years...

There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.

 

-jj

 

It think it's ironic we have a wild man D coordinator who loves blitzing and is open to the UFO scheme (I think I saw it on Sunday), and then on offense, we look tight as a drum with rigid play calling.

 

Agree again JJ, the best will come out when there is a relaxed mental state and comfort with the system.

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It think it's ironic we have a wild man D coordinator who loves blitzing and is open to the UFO scheme (I think I saw it on Sunday), and then on offense, we look tight as a drum with rigid play calling.

Rigid playcalling, or rigid execution? I think a bit of both.

 

Hel, I don't care what the score is this season because I have tempered my expectations a lot (as I have been recommending to all.) But damn, can't we at least put a 2nd half together?

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You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. -jj

I hear he has been criticized before for not making adjustments. I also know Rob Ryan's D can be run on. Both are manifesting themselves in two games. And both seem to be all about that 2nd half. I'm not sure if by week 8 this is still happening what will become of the "prefection" he demands. Game is all about adjustments, and since they're still learning the system I am sure that makes it difficult for them to make adjustments.

 

But Mangini has a history of criticism in adjusting, and Ryan's D has a history of being run against.

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Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.

 

His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.

 

Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.

 

After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.

 

You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.

 

I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.

 

Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.

 

So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.

 

Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.

 

Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.

 

There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.

 

-jj

 

 

Jason, While what you said sounds good I totally disagree with what you are saying, its all about talent and the desire to be/get better

your comment about the difference in the level of talent I disagree with the players on this Browns team lack the talent of the top tier teams in the league.

 

Example Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player, he has more than one move to rush the passer and he is more of a complete player, I don't doubt that Wimbley works hard and has the heart he just does not have the talent.

 

Example 2, Brian Robiske IMO was overrated at Ohio State and not the fastest player in college now in the NFL he can't get separation and get open, once again thats about talent, he does not have the talent of the top wideouts in the NFL such as a Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Reggie Wayne ect, if the guy could not run past college corners how is he supposed to run by more talented NFL corners? Massaquoi was the receiver people here thought was a project and would take a year or more to develop yet he is much more athletic and advanced than Robiske. IMO this is another example of Browns fans overrating players from Ohio State, I always thought watching OSU Brian Hartline would be a better pro receiver and he is showing this with the Dolphins.

 

There is a huge difference from the 53rd player on a roster and the top 10 guys on a roster, its all about the teams with the most talent in the league will win more games you can only scheme so much and talent will win most of the battles.

 

The idea of bringing in all the ex Jets was because they knew the system, though they know the system they are not the most talented guys which is why we are seeing the results we see, again it boils down to talent, you can have guys in the right position but the most talented guys are going to win the one on one battles.

 

I don't think the guys you are seeing today are Mangini's guys and he is taking this season to see who his guys are and replace them over the next couple of seasons with his type of players.

 

I think you are correct in some what you are saying about trust and why this offense is so conservative, I think Mangini believes lets just keep this simple and see if we can hang around and maybe steal a few games in the 4th quarter because he knows he does not have the talent to open things up and do alot of things many of us fans would like to see.

 

 

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His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.

 

 

And if we don't win?

 

Well, Mangini's contract is a lot more stable than most of the players. He's probably going to do this iron-fist thing for a good 12 months or so. The guys who can't take it will have to find work elsewhere.

 

-jj

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Well, Mangini's contract is a lot more stable than most of the players. He's probably going to do this iron-fist thing for a good 12 months or so. The guys who can't take it will have to find work elsewhere.

 

-jj

 

If he don't win some games and have some success ... there is only one thing to do with that iron-fist.

 

There are too many cases around the league where new coaches (even fisrt time coaches) have taken over, inserted new QB's (even rookie QB's), had similar (if not more) turnover, with less facilities and have had great success. In fact, take all of the above and look at this weeks opponent and what John Harbaugh has done with a 5-11 team, rookie QB, and aging defense & o-line. He didn't command a golf-clap for a nice effort, he took them to the AFC Championship game and has continued to roll.

 

I'm tired of this baby step shit (with an iron fist? ... Ohhhhh, scary) ... win TODAY or get out of the freaking way.

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Jason, While what you said sounds good I totally disagree with what you are saying, its all about talent and the desire to be/get better

your comment about the difference in the level of talent I disagree with the players on this Browns team lack the talent of the top tier teams in the league.

 

Example Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player, he has more than one move to rush the passer and he is more of a complete player, I don't doubt that Wimbley works hard and has the heart he just does not have the talent.

 

Example 2, Brian Robiske IMO was overrated at Ohio State and not the fastest player in college now in the NFL he can't get separation and get open, once again thats about talent, he does not have the talent of the top wideouts in the NFL such as a Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Reggie Wayne ect, if the guy could not run past college corners how is he supposed to run by more talented NFL corners? Massaquoi was the receiver people here thought was a project and would take a year or more to develop yet he is much more athletic and advanced than Robiske. IMO this is another example of Browns fans overrating players from Ohio State, I always thought watching OSU Brian Hartline would be a better pro receiver and he is showing this with the Dolphins.

 

There is a huge difference from the 53rd player on a roster and the top 10 guys on a roster, its all about the teams with the most talent in the league will win more games you can only scheme so much and talent will win most of the battles.

 

The idea of bringing in all the ex Jets was because they knew the system, though they know the system they are not the most talented guys which is why we are seeing the results we see, again it boils down to talent, you can have guys in the right position but the most talented guys are going to win the one on one battles.

 

I don't think the guys you are seeing today are Mangini's guys and he is taking this season to see who his guys are and replace them over the next couple of seasons with his type of players.

 

I think you are correct in some what you are saying about trust and why this offense is so conservative, I think Mangini believes lets just keep this simple and see if we can hang around and maybe steal a few games in the 4th quarter because he knows he does not have the talent to open things up and do alot of things many of us fans would like to see.

 

I don't mean to nitpick semantics here, but I think we're talking about two different things. You made one statement at the beginning. I agree with half of it, and I disagree with other. You said "Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player." DeMarcus Ware IS a better player than Kamerion Wimbley... but it's not because he's more talented. DeMarcus Ware is better skilled. There is a substantial difference.

 

DeMarcus Ware has developed the tools necessary to utilize his talent. You put him and Wimbley in a room full of cones and weight benches, you can't find 10 people out of 100 (not in the football industry) that can tell you which one's an All-Pro, and which one's on the verge of being a complete bust. The "talent" is almost equal. It's the skills that change the game. Ware has been disciplined (or disciplined himself) to react "correctly" or "effectively" to what happens in front of him. Wimbley has not.

 

Outside of tenacity and a general disregard for you personal well-being, I can't come up with a single non-adjustable difference between Wimbley's game and Ware's. What DeMarcus does on the field is learned behavior. It might look like instinct. It's not. It's technique.

 

Really this is an extension of the classic Nature vs. Nurture debate... a debate in which I almost always side with Nature. However, once you get to the NFL, the nature argument is over. Everyone is an elite athlete. Everyone is at the top of their field. The only thing that separates them is a few hundreths of a second on a stopwatch, and what's between their ears.

 

Same thing with Robiskie. Brian has as much talent as any receiver in the league. He just doesn't quite have the skills yet. Speed is a talent, separation is a skill. No one can run away from an NFL cornerback if that cornerback knows where you're going. No one. If you run a 4.4 and the CB runs a 4.5, you're still neck and neck for 70 yards. It's not about the speed. Everybody's fast.

 

Rarely do first year wide receivers make a significant impact. It's a lot to learn. Massaquoi has had some opportunities, simply because the Browns are very, very thin at wide receiver. And, he's got a little more gather and burst than Robiskie has at this point, and has demonstrated a bit better technique when it comes to route running.

 

A lot of this over-rated vs. under-rated stuff comes from the combine workouts... or similar measurables. Brian Hartline looks like a better pro prospect because he's more disciplined. He's also probably on the bottom end of the NFL when it comes to physical gifts (obviously, not so much that a layperson would notice). But, he started working on pristine technique at a very early age. He had some good coaches. And he's constantly worked on gaining edges. He's going to be fine.

 

Here's a good example to illustrate the point. Ray Lewis is one of the greatest linebackers ever to play this game... most people won't argue with me on that. But he's not noticeably more talented than, say, Omar Gaither. Ray Lewis is better because he wants to be better. He's better because he's smarter. He's better because he has trained himself to react with almost flawless accuracy. He's better because he never takes a play off.

 

That said, some skills are harder to teach than others. Some guys are easier to teach than others... is that talent? Yeah, kind of. I suppose.

 

Football comes down to 3 things Talent, Training, and Will. That's it. And in the NFL, for all intents and purposes, the talent is about equal. Then it's up to training and will. Do they know what to do? And will they do it? That's what separates NFL players.

 

No one can tell me that Martin Rucker can't block. The question is, Does he know how? and Will he? Well, after this training camp, you can bet he knows how. I think yesterday's waiver report will tell you whether or not he will.

 

-jj

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Football comes down to 3 things Talent, Training, and Will. That's it. And in the NFL, for all intents and purposes, the talent is about equal. Then it's up to training and will. Do they know what to do? And will they do it? That's what separates NFL players.

And coaching comes down to getting the players to do it, and placing them in positions to succeed. Not seeing a whole lot of either from The HC, DC or OC.

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If he don't win some games and have some success ... there is only one thing to do with that iron-fist.

 

There are too many cases around the league where new coaches (even fisrt time coaches) have taken over, inserted new QB's (even rookie QB's), had similar (if not more) turnover, with less facilities and have had great success. In fact, take all of the above and look at this weeks opponent and what John Harbaugh has done with a 5-11 team, rookie QB, and aging defense & o-line. He didn't command a golf-clap for a nice effort, he took them to the AFC Championship game and has continued to roll.

 

I'm tired of this baby step shit (with an iron fist? ... Ohhhhh, scary) ... win TODAY or get out of the freaking way.

 

I suppose you could swap out head coaches every 8 games or so. Eventually you'll find one I guess.

 

But my hunch is, the Browns aren't going to be consistently competitive until they get rid of some of the thin-skinned, soft-hearted attitude in the building. And start imposing their will on other players... much less teams. I mean, how long is Brodney Pool going to wander around in the secondary like Fred Astaire on roofies, before he decides to get into the head of the offense and attack the scheme. How many times is John St. Clair going to try to mirror block a guy twice as fast as him. Poor decision... playing with fear... That is not a lack of talent.

 

At some point these guys (the players) have to realize that they're the ones in the shiny helmets with their names stitched on their backs. And they can either master this system, and then make plays... or they can try to figure out how much money it's going to cost them on the open market to look this bad on film in an NFL uniform.

 

-jj

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I suppose you could swap out head coaches every 8 games or so. Eventually you'll find one I guess.

 

But my hunch is, the Browns aren't going to be consistently competitive until they get rid of some of the thin-skinned, soft-hearted attitude in the building. And start imposing their will on other players... much less teams. I mean, how long is Brodney Pool going to wander around in the secondary like Fred Astaire on roofies, before he decides to get into the head of the offense and attack the scheme. How many times is John St. Clair going to try to mirror block a guy twice as fast as him. Poor decision... playing with fear... That is not a lack of talent.

 

At some point these guys (the players) have to realize that they're the ones in the shiny helmets with their names stitched on their backs. And they can either master this system, and then make plays... or they can try to figure out how much money it's going to cost them on the open market to look this bad on film in an NFL uniform.

 

-jj

 

Nice...I like the not so veiled vinegar. :P That's a first...you aren't an emotionless football dictionary....wooohoooo

 

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hey there's a thread about a muntinity by week 4, shouldn't you run right over there and post about $1700 bottles of water?

 

Hey golf....fk off... or I'll go over to the Browns revolution and pull a bunch of threads about You thinking we could get a first and third for DA.... I think it was a dick move by Mangini...exclamation point. End of story, not going to defend it anymore.

 

What's the head coach dealing with water bottles for when we are:

 

Outscored 41-7 in the second half against the Minnesota Vikings and Denver Broncos.

 

Six-for-26 on third-down conversions this season, including 3-for-14 on Sunday

 

Another dick thing to say by the great Golfer!

 

 

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Sorry pal...you can't hurt my feelings or convince me it wasn't a dick move. Mangini needs not to worry about fines and worry about Outscored 41-7 in the second half against the Minnesota Vikings and Denver Broncos.

 

Six-for-26 on third-down conversions this season, including 3-for-14 on Sunday

 

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Can you throw that stat out a few more times in a few more threads. We get it and already been talking about it. The offense is struggling mighty. I am sure most also read the same blogs/stories that are using that stat.

 

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Don't forget that the defense allowed 7 of 11 3rd down conversions (64%).. JUST IN THE FIRST HALF.. I looked at this cuz everyone was complaining that the D was tired out in the second half.. The first half defense sucked when they were fresh too.. This is more than just an offensive/QB problem. There is plenty of room for blame to be shared vs pointing at a single guy.. Womack and St Claire were pathetic in protection.. The whole Oline sucked at run blocking.

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Sorry pal...you can't hurt my feelings or convince me it wasn't a dick move. Mangini needs not to worry about fines and worry about Outscored 41-7 in the second half against the Minnesota Vikings and Denver Broncos.

 

Six-for-26 on third-down conversions this season, including 3-for-14 on Sunday

 

And a bottle of water had everything to do with that.

 

Right.

 

Have you read ANYTHING Jason has written. It isn't about fines or Mangini not paying enough attention. This is a bad TEAM with bad players, and it's going to take time to undo what has been done.

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Before the end of the regular season, the Browns hired an independent firm to do a study on the team's roster. A major question was how many players on Cleveland's roster could start for all 32 teams in the NFL?

 

According to the study, the firm came to the conclusion that just four players -- nose tackle Shaun Rogers, left tackle Joe Thomas, tight end Kellen Winslow Jr. and receiver Braylon Edwards -- had enough talent to start for all 32 teams. It was one reason the Browns let go of general manager Phil Savage, who spent four years putting the team together

 

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Before the end of the regular season, the Browns hired an independent firm to do a study on the team's roster. A major question was how many players on Cleveland's roster could start for all 32 teams in the NFL?

 

According to the study, the firm came to the conclusion that just four players -- nose tackle Shaun Rogers, left tackle Joe Thomas, tight end Kellen Winslow Jr. and receiver Braylon Edwards -- had enough talent to start for all 32 teams. It was one reason the Browns let go of general manager Phil Savage, who spent four years putting the team together

 

I know nothing of this independent review. However, 4 players that could start for all 32 teams? That doesn't strike me as all that bad. If pressed on the matter, I couldn't come up with 5 or 6 Steelers that could start for all 32 teams, and they won the freakin' Super Bowl. Try it. Polamalu, Ike Taylor, Harrison, Ward... that's about it. I suppose you could make an argument for Heath Miller, but he's the #2 tight end at best in Indianapolis, Atlanta, San Diego, among others.

 

I'd be hard pressed to find a team in the league that has more than 6 players that fit that description.

 

Albeit that's 150% of the Browns total... but that seems a tad arbitrary and reeks of bullshit. And by that I don't mean you saying so. I mean, the story relayed to you is at best incomplete, and at worst a total misinterpretation of the truth.

 

I mean there are firms out there that do 360 degree roster evals. But their reporting is nothing like "Which of your guys is able to start for all 32 teams." That's a completely useless statistic. They will do comprehensive player ratings based on a standardized system. Typically they use an 8 point evaluation system broken out to tenths of a point. From there the various personnel groupings can be mathematically compared to other teams, or starters only, the squad as a whole, whatever you want really. This can give you a detailed breakdown of where you are in relation to the rest of the league from a body that is on some level objective.

 

If done last year, I can easily see the Browns rating out in the bottom 20% of the league. But I would be skeptical of whoever it was that gave you that "start for any team in the league" line. That sounds like someone searching for a sound byte that didn't really understand what he just heard.

 

-jj

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I copied that from the Browns revolution board...I think woodley, harrison and rothlisberger, casey hampTON

 

Anyway they did this so called eval...and was one of the criteria for having PS fired "supposedly", I'm sure lerner didn't appreciate the whole buffalo thing either. Regardless...the team we have ,especially the back 7 on D....aren't even average to me. aside from BE, ES, JT on O....that's not a very good team after trying for 4 years to put one together.

 

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-2-80...he-Browns-.html

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I copied that from the Browns revolution board...I think woodley, harrison and rothlisberger, casey hampTON

 

Anyway they did this so called eval...and was one of the criteria for having PS fired "supposedly", I'm sure lerner didn't appreciate the whole buffalo thing either. Regardless...the team we have ,especially the back 7 on D....aren't even average to me. aside from BE, ES, JT on O....that's not a very good team after trying for 4 years to put one together.

 

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-2-80...he-Browns-.html

 

Yeah... That's just odd. Walker's pretty straight up. But he's certainly not what anyone would call an insider. It just doesn't pass the smell test for me. The results are just a little too tidy. That, coupled with the fact that nobody seems to have run with this story (although, I can't say I went looking real hard for it), makes it a little hard to take at face value. Well, all that and the fact that it seems like a preposterous thing to measure.

 

And to your point on the Steelers... Hampton couldn't start for all 4 teams in his division, Woodley's a maybe, and Old #7 is a phenomenon, but he's gonna have to watch the Colts, Patriots, and possibly the Saints from the sideline.

 

The Browns back 7 (or back 8 in their case) is a tough group to figure. Wright is a gifted cornerback with some obvious holes in his skill set. McDonald isn't nearly as finely tuned but he's much more aggressive, attacking. He gambles (arguably when he shouldn't), and attacks the run... but he's frequently out of control and out of position. Elam is a bit of a mystery to me. He's physically aggressive, but only to a point. He's a shoddy tackler from what I've seen. And isn't terribly fluid as a DB. Pool is an utter frustration. He's got some significant physical advantages over many safeties.... namely, he moves like a cornerback, but is a six pack and a Five Guys away from being built like a linebacker. And he's about as imposing as a marshmallow peep. Suddenly, I'm hungry... weird. Anyway...

 

The linebackers are a little all over the place. What they aren't is attacking, deliver-the-blow type of guys. We've got a lot of stealth tacklers... Guys who can get running backs to the ground without actually making any noise. Probably some of the nicest linebackers in the league. But I'm not sure that's what anyone wants in a linebacker. Now, Eric Barton plays with a little mean streak. His problem is that his athletic peak was a couple of years ago, and he just can't do all the things he once could... But even when he could, he wasn't a great linebacker.

 

Wimbley... is flatly one of the most physically talented humans I've ever seen. That alone does not a great linebacker make... as we all may have noticed by now. I don't know what you do with them, frankly... Wimbley in particular. He's one of those guys that it's really hard to give up on. As a coach, you teeter on an edge between desperately wanting to harness that talent, and despising him for wasting it.

 

That said, whatever their shortcomings, you're right. You add up that back 8, and you've got a defense that just doesn't close. Oh, it can hang around for a while. But it really has some holes.

 

-jj

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Yeah... That's just odd. Walker's pretty straight up. But he's certainly not what anyone would call an insider. It just doesn't pass the smell test for me. The results are just a little too tidy. That, coupled with the fact that nobody seems to have run with this story (although, I can't say I went looking real hard for it), makes it a little hard to take at face value. Well, all that and the fact that it seems like a preposterous thing to measure.

 

And to your point on the Steelers... Hampton couldn't start for all 4 teams in his division, Woodley's a maybe, and Old #7 is a phenomenon, but he's gonna have to watch the Colts, Patriots, and possibly the Saints from the sideline.

 

The Browns back 7 (or back 8 in their case) is a tough group to figure. Wright is a gifted cornerback with some obvious holes in his skill set. McDonald isn't nearly as finely tuned but he's much more aggressive, attacking. He gambles (arguably when he shouldn't), and attacks the run... but he's frequently out of control and out of position. Elam is a bit of a mystery to me. He's physically aggressive, but only to a point. He's a shoddy tackler from what I've seen. And isn't terribly fluid as a DB. Pool is an utter frustration. He's got some significant physical advantages over many safeties.... namely, he moves like a cornerback, but is a six pack and a Five Guys away from being built like a linebacker. And he's about as imposing as a marshmallow peep. Suddenly, I'm hungry... weird. Anyway...

 

The linebackers are a little all over the place. What they aren't is attacking, deliver-the-blow type of guys. We've got a lot of stealth tacklers... Guys who can get running backs to the ground without actually making any noise. Probably some of the nicest linebackers in the league. But I'm not sure that's what anyone wants in a linebacker. Now, Eric Barton plays with a little mean streak. His problem is that his athletic peak was a couple of years ago, and he just can't do all the things he once could... But even when he could, he wasn't a great linebacker.

 

Wimbley... is flatly one of the most physically talented humans I've ever seen. That alone does not a great linebacker make... as we all may have noticed by now. I don't know what you do with them, frankly... Wimbley in particular. He's one of those guys that it's really hard to give up on. As a coach, you teeter on an edge between desperately wanting to harness that talent, and despising him for wasting it.

 

That said, whatever their shortcomings, you're right. You add up that back 8, and you've got a defense that just doesn't close. Oh, it can hang around for a while. But it really has some holes.

 

-jj

 

 

Appreciate the thoughts....I see the piece/article as 4 guys on this team that could start ... on another team...Not on Any team. Maybe I read it incorrectly...as to We've got a lot of stealth tacklers...I could make a ton of jokes but you said it all....stealth as in can't be found even with radar...lol

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Appreciate the thoughts....I see the piece/article as 4 guys on this team that could start ... on another team...Not on Any team. Maybe I read it incorrectly...as to We've got a lot of stealth tacklers...I could make a ton of jokes but you said it all....stealth as in can't be found even with radar...lol

 

I think maybe the author mis-wrote it.

 

-jj

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Guys who can get running backs to the ground without actually making any noise. Probably some of the nicest linebackers in the league.

 

Say no more on Linebackers....LMAO, that's good. Everybody has BASHED me for Hating our ILB's since Mike Johnson(just good), When we play Cincy for the next 6-10 years....we will regret not taking Rey. But atleast we have a WR who can't seperate :huh:

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Sure, where's Jason to comfort the masses?

 

I thought it might be better to let y'all get this one out. You can't stop an injured kid from crying just by telling him to stop crying. I want Browns fans to stay level headed to a point, but sometimes you just have to let it out.

 

I don't mean to compare you to children. But being a fan is sort of a way to stay a kid. It's about being an adult but still getting to have kid-type fun. And lots of hardcore Browns fans took a flip over the handlebars this weekend. And it stings. I may come off as "emotionless football dictionary" (thanks Solon16 for that one), but I care.

 

Nobody wants to hear over and over again that their anger is misplaced, and here's why... blah blah blah.

 

Likewise, I'm not in the business of being Kevin Bacon at the end of Animal House either. "Remain calm. All is Well!!!" All is not well.

 

Pro football is not played in a bubble. It's a cash business. And the perceived lack of effort is creating friction that is starting to rub raw in places. You can be bad, and still rebuild. But it's hard to be abysmal or embarrassing and still get the job done. People will get on board for "We're going to have some rough patches, but here's the plan." But they really have a problem with "Trust me. I know what I'm doing," when it looks like no one has a clue what's going to happen next. Throw in a couple changes of heart in the middle and you've got problems. The Pied Piper didn't lead by changing tunes... he played the same one over and over and over.

 

Leadership principles dictate that the leader anticipate, confront, or avoid obstacles to success. Eric Mangini now seems bent on creating new ones. He's stepped headlong into a new quarterback controversy because the pressure of now was stronger than the pressure he could maintain on the future. That is a failure in leadership.

 

There is no doubt that on September 27th, Derek Anderson is a better quarterback than Brady Quinn. None. But, there's only one game on September 27th 2009 (and they weren't going to win that one anyway). But, how do they rank on November 15th? December 27th? I don't know. I do know that Eric Mangini has painted himself into a corner. His best (and possibly only) move now, might be to ride out the year with Derek Anderson and call the Brady Quinn era a failure. A statement which could very well be true, but may have some lingering doubts among many.

 

But if he goes back to Quinn, he's going to complicate his mess. Bad enough to change your mind once. But twice? Forget it.

 

Now, that said, it's quite possible that if the Browns were to have gone the whole season with Quinn at the helm, they would've done little more than reinforce the idea that the they must go back the the quarterback drawing board in 2010. It may very well have happened that way.

 

But, by making this decision in week 3, he's all but guaranteed it.

 

Now, if I was in the Browns PR office, I suppose I could spin it. Coach has decided that Brady Quinn is not the future of this franchise, and Derek's experience will give us a better look at the other guys on the offensive roster. So, rather than let Quinn hurt other guys with his growing pains, we're going with the veteran quarterback that will give us more right now.

 

I get that. I can buy that. The approach has merit. The problem is, it's not what you set out to do. At some point you'll have to say "Starting Brady Quinn was a mistake," "It's not the route we're going from here on out." And I have trouble seeing Mangini do that.

 

Of course I didn't think he'd make a quarterback switch without at least trying to fake an injury or something. It just didn't seem all that Mangini-esque. Goes to show what I know.

 

So the question becomes what to do next. If it was my club, given this recent turn of events, I'd try to get Quinn out of the building as soon as possible. His contract is still very affordable, and his trade clause (if I remember correctly) renders him RFA for 2010 if traded - even if it doesn't, he's still affordable - but there's something about the incentives that kicks in, but I don't remember exactly. Somebody's got a 4th round pick out there for a flyer on a former 1st. They could probably go back to Seattle who's demonstrated a need for a quality backup quarterback and a more traditional potential heir to Matthew Hasselbeck.

 

The Browns could head out into the fall with Derek Anderson at the helm, maybe bring back Richard Bartel to hold down the emergency QB role. And proceed as normal. The only difference is, there's no more quarterback controversy. Derek Anderson good, bad, and otherwise will be the quarterback in 2009. In 2010 they can start over. Go draft Sam Bradford, or whoever suits their fancy. Maybe they make a run at Kevin Kolb (did I just say that?) or whoever the hot backup is at the end of 2009, or Kevin O'Connell, who knows?

 

The important thing is they have to get this 2009 quarterback thing off the front burner. They have too much work to do. If they keep jerking these two guys around all season long, this whole thing is going to implode... or hadn't we noticed? There has to be some stability somewhere. And quarterback is about the best place for it. Derek Anderson is at his best when he's relaxed. He's not going to relax with #10 in Mangini's ear after every play.

 

Anderson has some value to his team on the bench. Quinn has none. He has no appreciable experience, and isn't a terribly cerebral player anyway. So, if you're not going to have him on the field, probably best to send him packing.

 

I have trouble even projecting what kind of mess Mangini will have on his hands if he goes back to Quinn with Anderson constantly warming in the bullpen. I think you'll have a lot of guys snap into the "Who gives a shit" mode... some of them may be there already.

 

The saddest part is, Mangini could've left Quinn out there, let him take his lumps, and had a completely different week this week. At the current pace, he really only needed about two or three more weeks to go ahead and make the move to Anderson and leave this controversy behind. He could've gotten out 0-5/1-4 0-6/1-5 and, if there wasn't a significant improvement, gone to Anderson on a Monday morning. Let him practice all week, and go on with life. But Week 3 in the middle of the game? No. Anderson was Mangini's safety net if Quinn didn't pan out. Instead, he burned up the goodwill Anderson may have been accumulating on the bench, by tapping him too early and in a no win situation. He didn't let the Quinn thing play out to its conclusion (regardless of what that conclusion was). 3 interceptions later... we're back at square one. Mangini led his only bower and drew the 9 and 10.. uh oh.

 

-jj

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Nice summary of events JJ.

 

Any tried and true veteran fan of the NFL was flat out amazed that he made the switch regardless of which QB you "liked". I mean, to have to go through this twice in three seasons is embarrasing.

 

Exposes so many bad things about Mangini as a coach and leader.

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Seriously, it makes you wonder at what point Mangini determined he'd make the switch.

 

Was it pregame? "If Quinn looks unproductive at halftime, I'm switching"?

 

Was it at halftime?

 

What's even more stunning is that we were OUT OF THE GAME. To JJ's point, the move had almost a zero probability of changing the game's outcome: His defense had not forced a punt YET. The score was 20-0. Flacco and the Raven's offense was looking Patriot'esque. We were missing our starting RB and starting RG.

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