There's no easy way out

[damajuki]

DISCLAIMER: I turned the game off after DA's first interception today and went for a walk with my son the rest of the afternoon. I didn't witness the remaining carnage.

 

Folks, there's no easy way out of the Detroit Lions-esque bottoming-out we are in for this year.

 

I believe with certainty Mangini is doing the right thing by demanding accountability and discipline from the players but this is what the right thing looks like while in process. It's ugly, messy, unwatchable football because the players on the field, a. are not that good, and b. have not bought into this rebuilding process. It's sausage-making at its finest (worst) and it's not going to be fun this year. I knew that intellectually coming into this year but today I felt it with that stomach-churning, gut-wrenching feeling, down only 7-0, that the game was over.

 

And that's what it's going to be like this year. Which, okay, I can take. Fine, whatever, we're rebuilding, blah blah blah.

 

But all that being said, I'm troubled by a few things I just don't get after today.

 

The QB switch. Something's not adding up here. BQ was bad, but he wasn't DA-level bad (in case we forgot what that looked like, we got to see it again in the 2nd half) when he got pulled. And we knew this was the Ravens D going in. The coaches weren't surprised that they were dominating us. Right?

 

So what's with the short leash? Let's look at what we know:

 

BQ had a bunch of short throws before that awful pick. The plays were obviously designed quick-hitters, so I'm not buying the dink-and-dunk stuff today. They didn't attempt any long throws, they didn't attempt any screens, they basically didn't do much of anything that would put BQ in any position to even make a play.

 

So, I'm left to wonder: is BQ so bad that he literally can't even play the position anymore or is the offense so simplified (for whatever reason) that the D knows just as well as the O what's coming?

 

I have to think it's the latter because presumably the coaches wouldn't pin their careers to a guy they really thought couldn't play. And if it is the latter, why pull Quinn at all?

 

And here's where I'm getting worried now. I'm getting this awful feeling that somehow the coaches don't realize how bad we are, like they think they are going to be able to impose our will and grind out wins against better opponents, like BQ was holding the offense back today. Didn't anybody on our staff watch the Dolphins last year? How they intentionally worked in the gadget stuff to stay competitive? How they maximized their key weapons and built around them? Which leads me to...

 

Offensive philosophy (or lack thereof). What exactly are we supposed to be doing on offense? I'm not entirely sure Daboll has any more idea than I do, which is worrying. And the switch to DA makes me wonder even more if they are totally clueless about their personnel or their strategy or both.

 

It seems to me that the ultra-conservative offense is a spectacular failure. It invites defenses to load up the box and blitz and simply overwhelm the O before it can do anything positive simply because D's know we are VERY unlikely to do anything tricky. They're counting on the same 10 plays and figuring -- correctly -- that's all we'll do.

 

So why is Mangini insisting on using this scheme? It's like banging our collective heads against the wall. And why did we draft 2 WRs to never play? Because Steve Heiden and Robert Royal are so great?

 

I honestly don't know why they don't just run 4 WRs and give the QB -- EITHER one, at this point -- a chance to work on the bottom half of the D's depth chart. It seems to me that Mangini has picked a system and is going to run it, personnel be damned, instead of picking a system that works for the players.

 

The D. Again, the base vanilla D we saw today was awful. No pressure from 3 or 4 and giving up underneath stuff all day. It's the same as the problems with the O: it seems we play a scheme and try to shoe-horn players.

 

So, though I think we have no choice but to go through this, I think HOW we go through it matters. And I'm seeing a lot of really curious to downright strange things right now that don't bode well.

[JC]

Baltimore consistently had eight men in the box...at least with Quinn in the game. It seems we are absolutely clueless on offense. I would to be a fly on the wall in the coaches meeting when they're game planning for the offense. It is very disconcerting to say the least.

 

[Vegasdogg]

That was about as clear headed a post after a shit eating loss as I have seen from a fan. I share your "WTF is going on inside the heads of these people running the team" sentiments. I will go one step further - the HC sucks.

[damajuki]

Thanks, DD. The walk helped calm me down. And walking with a toddler helps to put things in perspective.

 

I was REALLY pissed; I don't turn games off like that. But I found myself getting really angry after the DA pick so I had to just stop, knowing what was coming. I'm glad I stopped watching; not so glad I was right.

 

While walking, I realized that something is truly wrong behind the scenes. Mangini obviously doesn't like either of these QBs, and that's fine, but why handcuff them this way? Something just isn't adding up.

 

Quinn was never this bad before and I simpy don't buy the sevLumberghian argument that Quinn never was any good. He was good enough long enough to play in this league.

 

Hell, Trent Edwards is a starter. Kevin Kolb is lighting shite up. Quinn isn't appreciably different than those guys.

 

So what is different? The f'ed up way he was handled and "coached", that's what. And now it seems to be happening to him again.

 

I'm not saying he's the end-all-be-all but it's simply not possible to do what he did in college and then look this bad as a pro. The situation has screwed him up plenty and today doesn't help matters.

 

No matter what sevLumbergh would have people think, Quinn WAS a big-time prospect. He now looks like damaged goods and I simply don't understand how benching him after ONE pick is supposed to help him. It's truly becoming senseless at this point.

[Sez.EJ]

Mangini put himself in a terrible position by benching Quinn... Not so much for benching quinn..it's when DA came on an laid a giant turd in the middle of the field that actually made Quinn look good again.. So where as a coach do you go from there? Even my wife said pulling Quinn is stupid and she watched the first football game of her life just 5 years ago. I think Mangini HAS to go back to quinn this week. The team sucks as a whole and who is QB is not going to change the outcome of our games a whole lot.. That being said..Quinn needs time on the field. Otherwise he's just a wasted pick who never fully got a chance. That's just dumb.

[Alo]

When Mangini first got the job, he tried to bring in his OL coach from New York, Bill Callahan, to serve as a mentor and sounding board to Daboll. As a former head coach and offensive coordinator, Callahan would have been ideally suited for that role, as well as taking charge of the crucial task of fixing our o-line.

 

Unfortunately, Callahan stayed in New York; it's not clear whether the Jets wouldn't release him from his contract or he just decided he didn't want to come here. And Mangini's second option, Tom Cable, got the "interim" stripped from his job title in Oakland.

 

So Mangini ended up going with George Warhop, a guy who was fired by Bill Parcells, demoted by Mike Nolan, and shown the door by Mike Singletary.

 

I speculated back in January that Mangini's poor reputation around the league may have hurt his chances of bringing in a well-respected OL coach. Whether that's true or not, I'm beginning to think that the Warhop hire could be having some serious negative effects on the team. As many have noted, it was bizarre how St. Clair didn't get any help while Dumervil was destroying him. It seemed like a rookie mistake that should have been corrected before it was too late to make a difference.

 

Because Warhop lacks NFL playcalling experience, it may be difficult for him to properly counsel Daboll. Also, his track record of developing o-linemen isn't very good.

 

With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.

[ndneighbor]

Thanks for posting this Damajuki, I admire your lucidity.

 

After a quick visit to the NFL stats pages I have to report that the Browns have been playing a tougher schedule so far than we had thought.

 

Sure, we knew Minnesota and Balt. had great D. Believe it or not Denver has the best ranked D in the NFL right now. ( according to team, 09, regular season, game, stats)

 

They've played Cincy,Cleve. and Oak. (A good reason to hate stats)

 

I think you're right. We'll see worse before we see better.

 

I sure hope EM does some deep digging into the QB/OC situation. I'm sure he's still on a first name basis with some offense experts who could give him a very frank assessment if asked.

 

There was already some OCs fired before the season began. Daboll might be in for a demotion unless EM is too proud to admit he made a mistake giving Daboll the OC position.

 

IMHO Daboll seems like the cork in the bottle. Something's just not right about the dynamic between OC and QB right now.

 

 

Glad to see you found a way to enjoy the afternoon.

[damajuki]

Damn you and your football acumen, Alo. It sure seems like you nailed this one.

 

The o-line issue is another reason that this preferred style of Mangini's of trying to pound the ball and execute nothing but short throws doesn't seem like the best idea, at least for this year.

 

I'd at least like to see a 4 WR set to try to loosen things up. It just seems like our offense has pulled into a shell and is withering away.

 

Warhop doesn't seem to be helping that.

[damajuki]

Good point on the D's we've faced, nd.

 

It's still too early to know if Denver's D is legit or not but what's clear is that they have figured out a way to use their personnel to maximum advantage.

 

Elvis Dumervil as an OLB? Can anyone imagine Mangini doing that? But it's working and the D is clicking.

 

This is the sort of thinking we need to see or the whole season will become just another morass of failure.

[hoorta]

When Mangini first got the job, he tried to bring in his OL coach from New York, Bill Callahan, to serve as a mentor and sounding board to Daboll. As a former head coach and offensive coordinator, Callahan would have been ideally suited for that role, as well as taking charge of the crucial task of fixing our o-line.

 

Unfortunately, Callahan stayed in New York; it's not clear whether the Jets wouldn't release him from his contract or he just decided he didn't want to come here. And Mangini's second option, Tom Cable, got the "interim" stripped from his job title in Oakland.

 

So Mangini ended up going with George Warhop, a guy who was fired by Bill Parcells, demoted by Mike Nolan, and shown the door by Mike Singletary.

 

I speculated back in January that Mangini's poor reputation around the league may have hurt his chances of bringing in a well-respected OL coach. Whether that's true or not, I'm beginning to think that the Warhop hire could be having some serious negative effects on the team. As many have noted, it was bizarre how St. Clair didn't get any help while Dumervil was destroying him. It seemed like a rookie mistake that should have been corrected before it was too late to make a difference.

 

Because Warhop lacks NFL playcalling experience, it may be difficult for him to properly counsel Daboll. Also, his track record of developing o-linemen isn't very good.

 

With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.

 

Great points Alo, glad to see you back. But it's not just the o-line that needs fixing. Some of the Ratbird TD runs were some of the most inept defensive football I've ever seen. Barton think he's an offensive lineman trying to stand up a blocker instead of actually trying to make a tackle? Other than Rodgers, IMHO our entire front 7 blows, and they all need to be farmed out.

 

[Legacy Fan]

What a fantastic thread, Juke. Responses too. Love the thread title, except when the Rocky IV workout montage starts, yesterday just feels like I'm watching Apollo Creed get killed in the ring for the first time all over again. And again.

 

Mangini said he was looking for a spark with the QB swap. But it only provided a spark for Balt's D. The spark needs to come from the playcalling, not the players.

 

Although Harrison looked respectable, we can't run the football. So stop trying. At least with the up the middle, pound you in the face December style runs. We just can't do it. Get creative, have some misdirection and at our slippery backs at least find a seam and go. No more of this "waiting for your line to set up blocks," just find a crease and fly. D's are overloading our left side making it look like JT & Steiny are awful, because they can lighten up our right side and StClair & Womack will kindly escort them into our backfield every down.

 

I used to think the WildDawg was too gimmicky until I watched ND execute it very well Saturday when Clausen was to hurt to play. I believe we have those kind of athletes in the backfield (Vickers TE/FB, Harrison TB, & Quinn QB/Cribbs QB/TB), and in terms of confidence, we now have two injured QB's (thanks, Eric). Put Heiden on the right side & split BE. I'm thinking that is our only option to get the offense moving again. Put opposing defenses on their heals a little more, and they'll back off the box. Quinn or DA or whomever will get a few more moments to let the bigger plays develop then. Sorry Braylon. Want to earn your contract? Be a team player, go throw a block or two on some reverses, misdirections, rather than worry about padding your stats. Then line up 4 WR's and let Vickers slip up the middle for a screen & let him Rumble. Line up four WR's again, let Vickers slip up the middle, then heave it at BE and let him make a play. How are we not at least trying to win?

 

Our only problem? Our OC is a mongoloid. No chance of us executing this under Brian "ZZZzzz" Daboll.

[osusev]

Dama I never thought that Quinn was not a major prospect coming out of college. I just thought he was a massive beneficiary of the media hype stemming from charlie weis.

 

quinn really was not pulled after 2 games but this is his 6th game with basically the exact same trend that he had for the 4 prior to this one.

 

I dont agree with how and when he was yanked but honestly it was coming he is not a NFL caliber qb and is more hype than substance and Savage bought it.

[lemosley01]

Dama I never thought that Quinn was not a major prospect coming out of college. I just thought he was a massive beneficiary of the media hype stemming from charlie weis.

 

quinn really was not pulled after 2 games but this is his 6th game with basically the exact same trend that he had for the 4 prior to this one.

 

I dont agree with how and when he was yanked but honestly it was coming he is not a NFL caliber qb and is more hype than substance and Savage bought it.

 

Rewriting history?

 

Maybe the same trend for 4 of the previous games, but his first two starts were nothing like what we've seen in the last 3 games.

 

Something isn't right; he doesn't look like the same player.

 

So we're back to DA, which nets us..what? Based on yesterdays performance nothing. And please don't try to say 'he hasn't practiced. Just because you haven't practiced doesn't mean you don't at LEAST remember not to throw into triple coverage. Further, we keep hearing how dumbed down this offense is. Is it still to 'smart' for Anderson?

[smash453]

Loooooong time lurker. First time post.

 

There is a lot of intelligent speculation, ideas and opinions on this board.

 

Where is the TEAM at with progress. That is my ultimate question. Not visually but during practice could they seriously be running so many of these ultra-basic plays?

 

The one thing that was discussed between my circle of friends while watching the game were the picks. The two times Edwards went out and was supposed to turn around, the Ravens were right there to intercept BOTH passes. Edwards didn't even turn around. His route running looks sluggish and uninspired.

 

Could this be a case of the players doing only what they need to do and get through the game win or loss? Do you think many of the players have already mentally jumped ship and are just going with the flow in hopes of a trade? Is this even a possibility?

 

[Greythan]

Good thread.

 

Running game. You know what? Its looked to me like we've been running the ball pretty well. We had some early success against both the Vikings and the Ravens. Both are teams known to defend the rush very, very well. I don't have stats to back this up, but the "feeling" was more positive. We've managed to be in 3rd and "managable" a lot this year.

 

Passing game. Horrid. Just horrid. Maybe the speed of the NFL game is simply too much for Quinn. I don't think there's any other fault that you could pin on Quinn for his results thus far. Stated another way, its not because he doesn't have the arm, mobility, pedigree, work ethic, etc. If it is indeed Quinn, then it must just be the speed of the game. The other variables (namely receivers) are playing a role here, but who knows the ratio. I guess we'll find out how much of it was Quinn vs the other variables when Mangini names DA as the starter.

 

Defense. Was anyone else appalled at the three untouched TD runs we gave up? I can't recall EVER seeing that. I mean 3 literally untouched TD runs. Wow, bad bad. One positive for me, Eric Wright looks pretty legit. McDonald needs more discipline but is certainly an athlete. Perhaps he can be coached up? Wimbley got another sack and it was quite an athletic play. He looks to be working hard.

[Vegasdogg]

this is his 6th game with basically the exact same trend that he had for the 4 prior to this one.

This is why you're not taken seriously by the majority. That is false. We're not stupid Sev, we know what we saw in his first couple games.

[Vegasdogg]

I speculated back in January that Mangini's poor reputation around the league may have hurt his chances of bringing in a well-respected OL coach. Whether that's true or not, I'm beginning to think that the Warhop hire could be having some serious negative effects on the team. As many have noted, it was bizarre how St. Clair didn't get any help while Dumervil was destroying him. It seemed like a rookie mistake that should have been corrected before it was too late to make a difference.

This game is often more about the asst coaches and coordinators than the HC. If what you say above is the case, I am more convinced than ever to shitcan Mangini. I know, I am losing it and now is not the time to fire him. BS - kick him to the curb.

 

[osusev]

This is why you're not taken seriously by the majority. That is false. We're not stupid Sev, we know what we saw in his first couple games.

 

 

really so after the denver game when defenses started playing tight to take away the quick short passes last year extending to the same defensive schemes this year that is false? Really?

 

I must have missed these last three games this year where our offense and Quinn played just like he did his last two games last year.... sure those trends must be false... talk about stupidity.

 

No I am not taken seriously by the majority because since he was drafted I did not agree with the hype that the majority who wanted quinn to play over anderson.... Sorry I did not follow the lemmings over the cliff.... so I dont care about the majority who own Quinn apparal even though he has never done anything to deserve it in a Browns uniform..

 

Its not popular to disagree with the masses but than again I really have not cared what the majority of Browns fans thought anyways. I am my own person who is a Browns fans with my own thoughts. Evidently My unpopular opinions about Brady being hype is true.... How is the film hound, it factor, gym rat, NFL pro ready by Weis, Played in a NFL system in college, Efficient Qb doing..... I am sorry I forgot he is first round talent.... forgive my speculation and wanting to see it on a NFL field first for at least 6-8 games before annointing him anything

[Riffer X]

Sev has not had any cred in awhile as far as I'm concerned, it's a way weird irrational bias the guy has against Queen. That being said, this thread is why Dam and Alo remain two of my favorite posters on the board.

 

Great stuff. Daboll just flat out sucks ass, this is beginning to make me yearn for Mo Carthon for god sake. They are not even trying, there is no way Queen can be judged with these handcuffs he's under. Did anybody even run a route past 6 yards while he was in there?

 

This is quite possibly worse than the expansion season IMO.

[osusev]

riffer its wierd and irrational to not buy Notre Dame Weis driven media draft hype? Its wierd to like a guy who won 10 games saddled witha terrible defense and a franchise best home record? really?

 

sure I must be wierd about 1st round qbs proving it first on the field and wondering if they are going to bust...... Sanchez is doing good so far and Matt Ryan awesome.... But than you Have Quinn, Jamarkis Russell, Leinert, Young.... on the flip side so yes I have had massive speculation problems with first round qbs and want them to prove it on the field FIRST before they get my support as a fan.

 

 

[Riffer X]

riffer its wierd and irrational to not buy Notre Dame Weis driven media draft hype? Its wierd to like a guy who won 10 games saddled witha terrible defense and a franchise best home record? really?

 

sure I must be wierd about 1st round qbs proving it first on the field and wondering if they are going to bust...... Sanchez is doing good so far and Matt Ryan awesome.... But than you Have Quinn, Jamarkis Russell, Leinert, Young.... on the flip side so yes I have had massive speculation problems with first round qbs and want them to prove it on the field FIRST before they get my support as a fan.

 

Yeah, like the other day when you were posting like a spaz with caps and shit. Face it my man, you have followed Queenie around rooting against him since day one. I don't even know if you post about anything else do you?

 

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread arguing with your agenda so I will bow out.

 

I just don't understand why some of you guys choose to be fans in the first place.

[osusev]

sure riffer you just got your shorts bunched up because all of your Brady backing just blew up in your face. no i just post about brady all day on here.... lol

 

Yes suddenly I should not be a fan because I dont like draft hype stemming from Weis... sure that makes me less of a fan lmao... you truly are a piece of work.

[Guest Masters]

sure riffer you just got your shorts bunched up because all of your Brady backing just blew up in your face.

 

As if DA backing didn't blow up in peoples faces yesterday either

 

As I said after week 1 and 2, the problems on O are deeper than the QBs. CLE has 1 legit receiver out on passing plays (BE). No one is getting open (hence Quinn checking down and DA throwing 3 picks). The right side of the line is giving next to no protection. The play calling is predictable and near Mo Carthon levels.

[osusev]

Sure DA is crazy at times there is no doubt about it, But like I said before at least he needs to be contained or leashed versus Brady who is like a poodle no one is even worried about.

[Guest Masters]

Sure DA is crazy at times there is no doubt about it, But like I said before at least he needs to be contained or leashed versus Brady who is like a poodle no one is even worried about.

 

It's a guy who is willing to throw caution to the wind (i.e. force plays that result in turn overs) vs. a guy who will not try to force things and won't throw caution to the wind (resulting in check downs, throw aways, and sacks).

 

If it was easy or possible to contian or leash DA, don't you think someone would have done that too him since since his Sophmore year in college? DA has how many NFL starts now and he still goes out and throws the ball around like he did in the second half yesterday? Down or not. Trying to make something happen or not. No one watching can put an excuse on the 3 picks DA threw (or the other near 2 picks).

 

It has zero to do with containing, leashing, or unleashing at this point. Neither guy can be judged or succeed in the current situation. The talent on the field for the majority of offensive snaps is less than it was last year.

[Greythan]

Sev's just a zany guy. Cut him some slack.

[osusev]

Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

 

We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

 

Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

[Dave]

I'm still befuddled that Quinn was pulled because if you look at the 1st half drive charts, the offensive drives were 16, 13, 32 and 9 yards before the time ran out of the half on the last drive. That's only 1 3 and out. Sure I'd love to see longer drives but its not like they didn't move the ball at all. The real problem reveals itself when you look at the Ravens drives: 31, 65 ,92, and 80. If the defense can't get them off the field it doesn't matter if I'm quarterbacking this team.

[damajuki]

Thanks for the compliments, fellas. I like to still talk about the actual football, and not just complain about being a fan of a bad team.

 

Because that's what we are. Either realize that and get used to it or quit and I don't want to quit. So, we have to talk about the bad football.

 

Back to the thread. Ha. Didn't realize about the thread title until you said that, Leg. Funny stuff. Now I can't stop hearing it.

 

Anyway, sev, you are just plain wrong about the ND "hype" machine. 69 TDs and 14 INTs in 2 years. Best player on bad teams for 2 years. Played well in big games (despite the myth) in bad circumstances. Used all his weapons, RB, TE, WR, very well. Those are the facts, no hype involved. Besides, I would argue more people, media and fans, hate ND more than love ND so I think the opposite is more likely true: his ND pedigree was something he had to overcome.

 

So what happend to that prospect? Grey has a good theory. Either the game is too fast for him and he can't translate his skills quickly enough -- he wouldn't be the first -- or he's been damaged in his time here.

 

I don't think there's enough evidence yet for the former and the latter seems much more likely.

 

Which is why I hate what's happening right now. It's bad enough to suffer through this type of rebuilding but it's much, MUCH worse suffering through this for no purpose whatsoever.

 

No matter how bad BQ was playing, the only way for him to improve is to keep playing. Sev says he had 6 bad games; okay, let's say that's true, for the purposes of discussion.

 

It's SIX bad games. THAT'S IT. Two of them were against legitimate playoff teams (BAL, MIN), and the rest were against teams that are WAY ahead of us in talent. Not to mention the finger thing, the coaching and coordinator change, the QB competition, etc.

 

Call them excuses if you want to but they remain FACTS. SIX games with all those other factors at the most difficult position in sports and people are convinced Quinn is the problem?

 

How many bad games has DA had? How many bad games did all those "busts" have that sev mentioned? How did JaMarcus look yesterday? What about Edwards? What about Henne? Those guys all busts too?

 

The reality is that all young QBs are going to have bad games; that's how they learn how to play the game and the only way to see if they recover from bad games is to let them keep playing.

 

We have so many issues on this team that it's really disturbing that Mangini would reopen this can of worms this quickly. Which tells me that it's not about BQ or DA at all. There's something else much bigger wrong here and I'm starting to really fear that Mangini has a bad case of Crennelism (a condition marked by the stubborn insistence that everything's fine and that all it will take for things to improve is for guys to execute the called plays better.)

[Guest Masters]

Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

 

We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

 

Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

 

2 threats to throw two is always better than 1, no matter what. Doesn't matter if BE is catching now if teams can roll coverage to him all day.

 

Hubbard never started a game last year. It was Steptoe, Cribbs, and Winslow splitting out wide last season while Stallworth was out. But again, while no legit #2 WR, there was a TE who made up for that in Winslow.

 

CLE can get better, but a QB change is not going to fix or drastically improve the offense right now. Unless the occassional forced play that shouldn't work out but does is considered improvement.