There's no easy way out

[Greythan]

Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

 

We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

 

Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

The receiving corps last year had a TE who was a legit receiving threat. I'd take last year's receiving corps over this year's in a heartbeat, BE's drops and all. Our starting QB last year took that cockpit to the worst passer rating in the NFL. You seem to be making the point that the starting QB this year would struggle, especially facing 2 top caliber playoff quality defenses in the first three weeks.

 

You then go on to say "we" can get better, but I guess the "we" is everyone but your favorite foil: Quinn.

 

What's your point? Your post seems to be summed up by: "We should give Quinn some leash since the talent around him is the same as last year and we can get better".

 

Hrm. I'm confused now.

[damajuki]

And we really can't overlook or overstate the importance of a TE and a running game (not to mention an actual defense) to a young QB.

 

Flacco and Ryan get mentioned a lot, as if they are the norm for young QBs. The reality is that they were in PERFECT situations for a young QB: veteran O-lines, veteran RBs, veteran WRs, veteran TE (in BAL, at least). Not to mention their D's. They just had to help out and learn as they went. They weren't asked to win games, or even really contribute substantively immediately. They got to play and learn and grow and they did so.

 

Now notice the young QBs who DIDN'T/DON'T have those luxuries and who are, not coincidentally, struggling. Russell, Edwards, Henne all from the same QB class and all struggled yesterday.

 

Anyway, to sev's point, yes, Winslow made a HUGE difference for Quinn. Notice how often Quinn went to him?

 

You can say that's a bad thing but you'd be wrong. Quinn ALWAYS used his TE's to great success at ND and he helped two get drafted (Fasano and Carlson, who are still playing in the League, by the way).

 

What does it all mean? It means we are a train wreck on offense and expecting any rookie starting QB to do anything but survive in these conditions is silly.

 

And if I realize that, why doesn't Mangini?

 

[Greythan]

Anyway, to sev's point, yes, Winslow made a HUGE difference for Quinn. Notice how often Quinn went to him?

Winslow caught more balls thrown by DA than any other receiver. Wasn't just Quinn, Winslow was a playmaker. We're down to just one now. That's significant.

[Dave]

Winslow caught more balls thrown by DA than any other receiver. Wasn't just Quinn, Winslow was a playmaker. We're down to just one now. That's significant.

 

Are we still talking about DA? Really? Can we move on now....

 

 

[RedDawg]

Thanks for the post! I've been bewildered as well. I feel like a Detroit fan, who saw his team look great in the preseason, then watched them fall apart once the season started.

 

What happened to the offense? Both QB's and units seemed to move the ball in the preseason, but now we hardly get first downs? I'm no QB fan-boy, but both of these guys look like different guys, and I mean a change for the worse. I'd like to know who the flip got in their heads?!!

[RedDawg]

I thought the move indicated that Mangini is already getting pressure from above.

 

That being said, I've claimed before that IF Mangini dumps Quinn, and DA comes in and sucks, it's going to be a few more nails in the coffin.

 

Mangini put himself in a terrible position by benching Quinn... Not so much for benching quinn..it's when DA came on an laid a giant turd in the middle of the field that actually made Quinn look good again.. So where as a coach do you go from there? Even my wife said pulling Quinn is stupid and she watched the first football game of her life just 5 years ago. I think Mangini HAS to go back to quinn this week. The team sucks as a whole and who is QB is not going to change the outcome of our games a whole lot.. That being said..Quinn needs time on the field. Otherwise he's just a wasted pick who never fully got a chance. That's just dumb.

[RestinPeace]

Sorry, but wrong. There was no pressure from above. The pressure came from the lockerroom, mostly from BE I figure. BE is a big part of the problem as he can't run the right routes near enough. The BQ pick was partially on BE(again). Mangini gave BE and his clique what they wanted, either fair or unfair, they got made examples of themselves. Just like the contract crying Cribbs is at WR. Rebuilding is not fun.

 

Getting rid of all 3 are of need now. If anything, Mangini has been to nice.

[Chip Banks]

With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.

 

That's why Lerner needs to pay this guy what it takes to pry him away from the 'fins. Look at his history with coaching up guys that were not high picks (see San Diego):

 

Hudson Houck, one of the most respected offensive line coaches in the NFL, is entering his third season as a member of the Dolphins’ staff. A veteran of 24 years as an NFL assistant, Houck came to the Dolphins after spending the previous three years in the same capacity with San Diego.

 

In 2005, Houck transformed an offensive line that ranked fourth in the NFL in sacks allowed with 26, the lowest total by the Dolphins over the last three years, and half the total that they permitted in 2004. Houck’s unit also played an integral role in the success of the Dolphins’ running game, which averaged 4.3-yards per rush attempt. Last season, the running game averaged 4.2 yards per attempt, the first time a Dolphins team averaged 4.0 or better in consecutive seasons since the 1986-87 campaigns. Second-year running back Ronnie Brown put together his first 1,000-yard rushing season as a pro with 1,008 yards.

 

With the Chargers in 2004, Houck helped to revitalize an offensive line which featured five new starters from the previous year. The Chargers ranked tenth in the NFL in total offense, including a No. 6 finish on the ground, as they averaged 136.6 yards rushing per contest. LaDainian Tomlinson ran for more than 1,300 yards in each of Houck’s three years there, including more than 1,600 in his first two. The Chargers’ line permitted just 21 sacks in 2004, the fourth-lowest total in the NFL and the eighth-fewest in that franchise’s 45-year history. Overall in Houck’s three seasons with the Chargers, the offensive line allowed an average of only 24.6 sacks per season. Their total of 74 sacks over this three-year period was the fourth-lowest in the NFL over this stretch.

 

Houck joined the Chargers following a nine-year stint as offensive line coach with the Dallas Cowboys (1993-2001). This included four years (1994-97) when he also held the title of assistant head coach. Over this nine-year period, the Cowboys permitted a total of only 203 sacks, the lowest figure in the NFL. They yielded less than 20 sacks three times and less than 30 on six occasions. During Houck’s tenure in Dallas, six different offensive linemen made a total of 22 trips to the Pro Bowl. This group included Larry Allen (7), Nate Newton (5), Erik Williams (4), Ray Donaldson (2), Mark Stepnoski (2) and Mark Tuinei (2). The unit helped Emmitt Smith to a pair of NFL rushing titles over this nine-year stretch as he ran for more than 1,000 yards each time.

 

Prior to his stint with the Cowboys, Houck spent one year (1992) tutoring the offensive line with the Seattle Seahawks, when Chris Warren rushed for 1,017 yards, the first time in his career that he reached the 1,000-yard mark. This came on the heels of another successful nine-year run, with the Los Angeles Rams from 1983-91. Over his nine-year stint with the Rams, there were seven different individual 1,000-yard rushing seasons and four individual league rushing titles, including an NFL-record 2,105 yards by Eric Dickerson in 1984. Over this stretch, five different Rams offensive linemen were voted to a combined 21 Pro Bowls, including Jackie Slater (7), Doug Smith (6), Kent Hill (3), Dennis Harrah (3) and Tom Newberry (2). In the final three years of Houck’s tenure with the Rams, quarterback Jim Everett passed for more yards than any other signal caller over this span and he also did not miss a start from 1988-91.

 

Overall in his 24 years as an NFL assistant, Houck’s lines have paved the way for twenty individual 1,000-yard rushing seasons. The running backs who benefitted from the blocking, which have compiled six NFL rushing titles, consist of Emmitt Smith (Dallas, 9), Eric Dickerson (Rams, 4), LaDainian Tomlinson (San Diego, 3), Greg Bell (Rams, 2), Ronnie Brown (Miami, 1), Chris Warren (Seattle, 1) and Charles White (Rams, 1).

[Dave]

Here's a little snipet I took from Peter King's MMQ article on si.com:

 

"It takes every receiver who comes into this offense a few years to not just be a receiver running routes, but to be a useful target,'' Clark told me. "It took me four years. It's hard to narrow down why, but a good answer is experience. It's my seventh season now, and it's seeing a lot of plays with [Peyton], in the same film room with him, then getting out on the field and feeling it. Same thing with Reggie. I'm sure he didn't have the chemistry in year three he does now."

 

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...l#ixzz0SQ5wzCRl

 

 

Just thought it was interesting that on a successful team, a guy can get years to get better and work up a chemistry. We bench a guy after 2 1/2 games, hoping for a "spark". I've said it before, if the QB's problem is the speed of the game, its not going to slow down for him when he's on the bench. Even meaningless playing time in a blowout loss is meaningful to the growth of your young players.

[Riffer X]

I have no problem with a spark off the bench, but what is going on now is fooking terrible.

 

You sink or swim with Quinn the rest of the year, that's all you can do. you gotta find out if he can get better, although with Dey Balls I'm not sure that is possible.

[Greythan]

Mangini knows full well what benching a young QB at halftime of game 3 means.

 

He didn't care. That seems to speak volumes. He flat out doesn't think Quinn is worthy of investment. It also means, by reference, that he thinks the guy who couldn't beat him out in preseason is equally unworthy of investment. I guess the other possibility is the "bench-McNabb-to-wake-him-up" theory but that seems like a stretch. We'll know soon enough.

 

Let's hope Mangini is right. If he isn't, we're in HUGE trouble as we'll be hiring a new regime in 2 years...... again.

[hoorta]

Good thread.

 

 

Defense. Was anyone else appalled at the three untouched TD runs we gave up? I can't recall EVER seeing that. I mean 3 literally untouched TD runs. Wow, bad bad. One positive for me, Eric Wright looks pretty legit. McDonald needs more discipline but is certainly an athlete. Perhaps he can be coached up? Wimbley got another sack and it was quite an athletic play. He looks to be working hard.

 

Those TD runs it looked like a High School defense out there, a guy in wheelchair could have made it into the end zone.

 

Agreed on Wright and McDonald- but they can't cover guys all day when there's zero pressure on the QB (one sack on Flacco).

 

Disconcerting to see the Browns with no fire and intensity- it's like they're just going through the motions.

 

[RestinPeace]

I wouldn't be surprised that Quinn's miss of MMass in the Denver game didn't leave the players seething. That was a horrible miss on a non-descript day. The point that Quinn hadn't made any bad errors at that point, but wasn't seeing enough movement with the ball, could have been healed by one good throw.

[pl4tinum]

The Browns players play the game like they have a turd that's about to fall out of their ass, so they spend the whole game squeezing their butt cheeks together, worrying about their own asses than playing as a team.

[Vegasdogg]

If he isn't, we're in HUGE trouble as we'll be hiring a new regime in 2 years...... again.

We're in huge trouble.

[DawgTracker]

I don't think it is the play calling, look at the difference between what Anderson attempted to do and what Quinn attempted to do. They are both working from the same playbook, Quinn simply fears throwing the ball downfield unless a receiver is wide open, DA is willing to trust his arm and throw into double coverage. Somewhere in the middle is what we need. Anderson made some nice throws and those same plays have been there all season for Quinn. Anderson also had three interceptions which prevent you from winning.

 

 

 

[Solon16]

Great points Alo, glad to see you back. But it's not just the o-line that needs fixing. Some of the Ratbird TD runs were some of the most inept defensive football I've ever seen. Barton think he's an offensive lineman trying to stand up a blocker instead of actually trying to make a tackle? Other than Rodgers, IMHO our entire front 7 blows, and they all need to be farmed out.

 

Our d-line is good...our fkn Linebackers suck and have since late 80's...when will you freaks realize that Dqwell and Barton both SUCK! ...Wimbley is only LB I'd keep right now! All you Dqwell lovers are DEAD wrong and have been! It is so freaking obvious and has been to me since 99'. We need a INSIDE LINEBACKERS!

 

[pl4tinum]

We need lots of things but you dont handcuff what you have in a rebuilding year,you let them play their game and let the cream rise and build on it.

Right now you cant have an honest assesment of anyone under this current system of play.

 

Let's not talk about cream right now.

[Legacy Fan]

I don't think it is the play calling, look at the difference between what Anderson attempted to do and what Quinn attempted to do. They are both working from the same playbook, Quinn simply fears throwing the ball downfield unless a receiver is wide open, DA is willing to trust his arm and throw into double coverage. Somewhere in the middle is what we need. Anderson made some nice throws and those same plays have been there all season for Quinn. Anderson also had three interceptions which prevent you from winning.

Is it fear or smarts for not throwing into triple coverage? So far, with shit playcalling, the results are the same, with the "fear" yielding the more delayed one.

Our WRs inability to get separation is troubling.

 

Our inability to pass block to allow those WRs a possibility of just a double move is seriously limiting the passing game, regardless of who's under center.

[Canton Mike]

Last year, the Quinn led offense scored 30 points (or close) the 1st 2 games he played, with virtually NO prior experience.....He didn't do that throwing all "dinks"...IMHO, this is SQUARELY on the shoulders of our offensive coaching. I'm sorry, but Day-blah ain't gettin' it done & Mangini needs to admit that all his buddies aren't getting the job done. The pulling of Brady as it was done yesterday may have done irreparable damage. At this point, it is going to be very difficult to rebuild his confidence.

My question to Mangini AND Day-blah would be..."WHY is Quinn throwing all dinks? He didn't LAST year!"

Color me PO'd. Baltimore is tough, but we stunk yesterday & NOT just at QB....I saw no "fire"..we need to throw some oxygen on the embers...IF there are embers left. I supported Mangini to this point, but it seems to me I am seeing less effort each week. Not good.

Mike

 

 

[hoorta]

Our d-line is good...our fkn Linebackers suck and have since late 80's...when will you freaks realize that Dqwell and Barton both SUCK! ...Wimbley is only LB I'd keep right now! All you Dqwell lovers are DEAD wrong and have been! It is so freaking obvious and has been to me since 99'. We need a INSIDE LINEBACKERS!

 

I agree, the linebacking has totally sucked. Wimbley certainly hasn't lived up to his draft status, he should be a dominant OLB, ala Chip Banks or Clay Matthews. Frankly, he plays like a journeyman.

 

ILB? We haven't had a decent one since Eddie Johnson.

 

If Mangini's going to let the DA interception machine get on the field, hell- put in Alex Hall and let him make a few mistakes while were at it- at least the guy has some athletic ability.