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Peter King


Beanpot

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Mods, nuke this if it's already been posted (and please fix that table thing that is filled with suck):

 

I've got a feeling that Cleveland 6, Buffalo 3 didn't put much salve on the wounds of Browns fans. I know many of them, and one e-mailed me Sunday night after the Browns' first win of the year -- which featured 2-of-17 passing by the starting quarterback. It says much about this edition of the Browns that their star of the game was punter Dave Zastudil. "When the game ended, I felt nothing,'' said my buddy, who grew up in Cleveland and now works on the East Coast. "Zero. Completely numb. It's become so bad, even wins have become all but meaningless.''

 

The ire of the fans is understandable. This is Year 11 of the Browns' reincarnation, and it's hard to say the team is very far ahead of where it was 10 years ago, when the expansion Browns finished 2-14.

 

On offense, the Browns have a left tackle of the future, Joe Thomas, but no other franchise players; they'll probably have to draft yet another first-round passer, their third since '99, next April. They need a running back of the future. On defense, they don't have a pass-rusher or anyone who scares a game-planning offensive coordinator except perhaps nose tackle Shaun Rogers. The whispers of agents with players on the team get louder and louder that the coach, Eric Mangini, seems to have as many players against him in the locker room as any other coach in the league.

 

And if a report by ESPN's Adam Schefter is true -- that rookie running back James Davis was hurt in practice when ordered to run padless against fully padded defensive players -- Mangini will be in trouble with the league and in trouble when he tries to lure free agents to Cleveland next offseason.

 

The Davis allegations are troubling, and the team has already talked to a league official investigating the incident. The Browns say the incident never happened that way. Davis, they claim, was injured when going against linebacker Blake Costanzo in a post-practice pass-rushing drill, when both players were not wearing pads. The play left Davis on injured reserve with a shoulder injury. The NFL Players Association is also looking into the story, and I'll follow up as developments occur, as best I can.

 

With all that as a backdrop, let's take a look at what Mangini, who is five games into a four-year contract, and GM George Kokinis have done since taking over. They've made three major trades -- dealing troublesome tight end Kellen Winslow to Tampa for second- and sixth-round picks, trading down with the Jets on draft day to net a passel of players and picks, and sending Braylon Edwards to the Jets last week for two players and two draft picks. They also made a minor one, sending defensive tackle Louis Leonard to Carolina. In all, Cleveland got these 13 pieces of the puzzle (players and draft picks):

 

Players from the Jets Draft picks

Starting DE Kenyon Coleman 1st-round C Alex Mack

Starting S Abram Elam 2nd-round DL/LB David Veikune

No. 3 QB Brett Ratliff 2nd-round WR Muhammad Massaquoi

Backup WR Chansi Stuckey 6th-round RB James Davis

Backup LB/Special-teamer Jason Trusnik 6th-round CB Cory Francies

3rd-round pick in 2010 (from Jets; could rise to a 2)

5th-round pick in 2010 (from Jets)

5th-round pick in 2010 (from Bucs)

6th-round pick in 2010 (from Panthers)

 

Mack is starting and playing passably well. Massaquoi has started three games and is still learning the pro game. Veikune is an inside linebacker project, and Mangini is cautiously optimistic he can learn to be a sideline-to-sideline playmaker. The Jets guys are players Mangini knew, guys who can fill roles; Elam could be a long-term safety and Coleman is a serviceable 3-4 defensive end. The Browns have 11 picks in the 2010 draft, and it's a vital draft for the future of the franchise. (How many times have Browns fans heard that, and gotten their hopes up about Tim Couch or Courtney Brown or Gerard Warren or William Green or Jeff Faine or Edwards or Winslow? Those were the top picks between 1999 and 2005, and none play in Cleveland anymore.)

 

So, I asked Mangini and Kokinis in separate interviews, do the Browns have a better 53-man roster than they did at the end of the 2008 season?

 

Kokinis: "I think so. But it's different. To go forward, the environment here had to change. We aren't in this to put band-aids on the problem. We're here to solve the problem. When you establish a system, it's all about building a disciplined program conducive to winning, and you're going to have people at first who fight the system. But we'll find the true Browns who buy into what we're doing. The one thing people need to understand is this situation wasn't like Atlanta, where you can draft Matt Ryan and sign Michael Turner in free agency and win your division. This team was a long way away. Some free-agency periods and some drafts need to happen for the right amount of change to take place.''

 

Mangini: "Yeah, I think the roster's better. I think we have a much better chance of getting where we want to be with this roster moving forward. But it's not going to be easy. What gets lost a little bit with our draft-day trade is how much money we saved over the long term by trading down -- maybe $40 million. And those resources will be spent to build a better overall football team. That's cash we'll spend on more players.

 

"For now, we're making improvements. Some of the improvements aren't sexy -- more energy at practice and in games, more intensity, playing complimentary football. But regardless of external perception, we have guys who care. And next year, we'll have 11 draft picks instead of the four we had this year. That's when you can do some building.''

 

My take: The roster is absolutely not better because no player of the skill level of Edwards or Winslow has been added. But I would have done all three deals that ManKinis did, because Winslow and Edwards were never going to buy into any long-term rebuilding program, which this has to be. There comes a time when team and player have to divorce, and if player has great success after the trade (Roger Clemens when he left Boston), it doesn't mean he'd have had the same success in his original place.

 

Winslow was damaged goods on and off the field, which Tampa Bay is discovering now, and getting a two and five for him last winter was good. Edwards had two good NFL years, but the book on him was he liked the life of being a football player more than actually being a football player. Shortly before the Browns dealt him to New York, three teams told Cleveland they were not interested in making an offer for him.

 

Could Edwards have generated interest before the draft last year? Maybe, but not much more than third- and fifth-round picks and two bottom-of-the-roster contributors. (Let's say the Giants would have given the Browns a second-round pick last April, which they never offered. But if they did, what's a better deal -- the 60th pick in 2009, or the 80th and 150th in 2010, plus a fourth receiver and a special-teams-captain type? I'd take the latter.)

 

We can argue all day about taking Mack as the key pick in the Sanchez deal. I'd have gone for a play-making linebacker like James Laurinaitis or Rey Maualuga, or a top tackle like Michael Oher to pair with Thomas for the long-term, then get a center down the line this year or next. But time will tell on Mack, who needs to be a franchise keystone for this trade to be smart.

 

"The draft is the equalizer in the NFL,'' said Kokinis. "We've got to make those [2010] picks work.''

 

Because of the startup nature of the program, Kokinis said he's been spending time in and around the team this fall, instead of concentrating his efforts on on-campus scouting. He said he'd do that after the college season. If I were him, I'd accelerate the process. I'd be spending three days at Texas turning over every stone on Colt McCoy, and three in Norman looking at Sam Bradford -- as well as extensive time looking at the other quarterbacks in the 2010 draft, like Tim Tebow and Jevan Snead. That's more important than whatever's happening in his building right now.

 

This is a startup program, like Kansas City and St. Louis and Tampa Bay. Anyone who thought the first season would be pretty had misplaced hopes. Though if I were owner Randy Lerner, I'd have moved heaven and earth and acceded to anything Scott Pioli wanted to make him franchise czar. The fact is Lerner hired a coach who'd had a good startup record with the Jets. But for Mangini to succeed, he has to make sure he avoids the same mistakes a coach he knows well, Bill Belichick, made in Cleveland in the first half of the Nineties. Belichick's plan was smart, but his communication and execution were not. Those are the things Mangini's got to work on in Cleveland.

 

By the way, Lerner's not going to cave after a year and sweep clean. He's tired of the coaching and front-office chaos, and I'm not saying he's going to give Mankinis three seasons like this one, but to think he'll fire the building again this winter is just not happening. This is what I'd say to Browns' fans: It took you years to get into this mess, and it's going to take you at least two years to get out of it.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...mail/index.html

 

Beanpot

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What burns me up is the totality of the K2, Sanchez, BE deal. MoMass could have still been had. And maybe Magoola too. I wasn't high on Rey, but he's playing fairly well. And he's playing. Cant say the same for Veikune.

 

Sanchez doesnt seem to have any trouble throwing to BE. Imagine what we could have had for Quinn.

 

This is a serious mistake in player eval on Manini's part. 2.5 games? Total Bullshit. That kind of evaluation could have been made in the offseason.

 

Hell, Lumberg made it 2 years ago. :rolleyes:

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Mods, nuke this if it's already been posted (and please fix that table thing that is filled with suck):

 

I've got a feeling that Cleveland 6, Buffalo 3 didn't put much salve on the wounds of Browns fans. I know many of them, and one e-mailed me Sunday night after the Browns' first win of the year -- which featured 2-of-17 passing by the starting quarterback. It says much about this edition of the Browns that their star of the game was punter Dave Zastudil. "When the game ended, I felt nothing,'' said my buddy, who grew up in Cleveland and now works on the East Coast. "Zero. Completely numb. It's become so bad, even wins have become all but meaningless.''

 

The ire of the fans is understandable. This is Year 11 of the Browns' reincarnation, and it's hard to say the team is very far ahead of where it was 10 years ago, when the expansion Browns finished 2-14.

 

On offense, the Browns have a left tackle of the future, Joe Thomas, but no other franchise players; they'll probably have to draft yet another first-round passer, their third since '99, next April. They need a running back of the future. On defense, they don't have a pass-rusher or anyone who scares a game-planning offensive coordinator except perhaps nose tackle Shaun Rogers. The whispers of agents with players on the team get louder and louder that the coach, Eric Mangini, seems to have as many players against him in the locker room as any other coach in the league.

 

And if a report by ESPN's Adam Schefter is true -- that rookie running back James Davis was hurt in practice when ordered to run padless against fully padded defensive players -- Mangini will be in trouble with the league and in trouble when he tries to lure free agents to Cleveland next offseason.

 

The Davis allegations are troubling, and the team has already talked to a league official investigating the incident. The Browns say the incident never happened that way. Davis, they claim, was injured when going against linebacker Blake Costanzo in a post-practice pass-rushing drill, when both players were not wearing pads. The play left Davis on injured reserve with a shoulder injury. The NFL Players Association is also looking into the story, and I'll follow up as developments occur, as best I can.

 

With all that as a backdrop, let's take a look at what Mangini, who is five games into a four-year contract, and GM George Kokinis have done since taking over. They've made three major trades -- dealing troublesome tight end Kellen Winslow to Tampa for second- and sixth-round picks, trading down with the Jets on draft day to net a passel of players and picks, and sending Braylon Edwards to the Jets last week for two players and two draft picks. They also made a minor one, sending defensive tackle Louis Leonard to Carolina. In all, Cleveland got these 13 pieces of the puzzle (players and draft picks):

 

Players from the Jets Draft picks

Starting DE Kenyon Coleman 1st-round C Alex Mack

Starting S Abram Elam 2nd-round DL/LB David Veikune

No. 3 QB Brett Ratliff 2nd-round WR Muhammad Massaquoi

Backup WR Chansi Stuckey 6th-round RB James Davis

Backup LB/Special-teamer Jason Trusnik 6th-round CB Cory Francies

3rd-round pick in 2010 (from Jets; could rise to a 2)

5th-round pick in 2010 (from Jets)

5th-round pick in 2010 (from Bucs)

6th-round pick in 2010 (from Panthers)

 

Mack is starting and playing passably well. Massaquoi has started three games and is still learning the pro game. Veikune is an inside linebacker project, and Mangini is cautiously optimistic he can learn to be a sideline-to-sideline playmaker. The Jets guys are players Mangini knew, guys who can fill roles; Elam could be a long-term safety and Coleman is a serviceable 3-4 defensive end. The Browns have 11 picks in the 2010 draft, and it's a vital draft for the future of the franchise. (How many times have Browns fans heard that, and gotten their hopes up about Tim Couch or Courtney Brown or Gerard Warren or William Green or Jeff Faine or Edwards or Winslow? Those were the top picks between 1999 and 2005, and none play in Cleveland anymore.)

 

So, I asked Mangini and Kokinis in separate interviews, do the Browns have a better 53-man roster than they did at the end of the 2008 season?

 

Kokinis: "I think so. But it's different. To go forward, the environment here had to change. We aren't in this to put band-aids on the problem. We're here to solve the problem. When you establish a system, it's all about building a disciplined program conducive to winning, and you're going to have people at first who fight the system. But we'll find the true Browns who buy into what we're doing. The one thing people need to understand is this situation wasn't like Atlanta, where you can draft Matt Ryan and sign Michael Turner in free agency and win your division. This team was a long way away. Some free-agency periods and some drafts need to happen for the right amount of change to take place.''

 

Mangini: "Yeah, I think the roster's better. I think we have a much better chance of getting where we want to be with this roster moving forward. But it's not going to be easy. What gets lost a little bit with our draft-day trade is how much money we saved over the long term by trading down -- maybe $40 million. And those resources will be spent to build a better overall football team. That's cash we'll spend on more players.

 

"For now, we're making improvements. Some of the improvements aren't sexy -- more energy at practice and in games, more intensity, playing complimentary football. But regardless of external perception, we have guys who care. And next year, we'll have 11 draft picks instead of the four we had this year. That's when you can do some building.''

 

My take: The roster is absolutely not better because no player of the skill level of Edwards or Winslow has been added. But I would have done all three deals that ManKinis did, because Winslow and Edwards were never going to buy into any long-term rebuilding program, which this has to be. There comes a time when team and player have to divorce, and if player has great success after the trade (Roger Clemens when he left Boston), it doesn't mean he'd have had the same success in his original place.

 

Winslow was damaged goods on and off the field, which Tampa Bay is discovering now, and getting a two and five for him last winter was good. Edwards had two good NFL years, but the book on him was he liked the life of being a football player more than actually being a football player. Shortly before the Browns dealt him to New York, three teams told Cleveland they were not interested in making an offer for him.

 

Could Edwards have generated interest before the draft last year? Maybe, but not much more than third- and fifth-round picks and two bottom-of-the-roster contributors. (Let's say the Giants would have given the Browns a second-round pick last April, which they never offered. But if they did, what's a better deal -- the 60th pick in 2009, or the 80th and 150th in 2010, plus a fourth receiver and a special-teams-captain type? I'd take the latter.)

 

We can argue all day about taking Mack as the key pick in the Sanchez deal. I'd have gone for a play-making linebacker like James Laurinaitis or Rey Maualuga, or a top tackle like Michael Oher to pair with Thomas for the long-term, then get a center down the line this year or next. But time will tell on Mack, who needs to be a franchise keystone for this trade to be smart.

 

"The draft is the equalizer in the NFL,'' said Kokinis. "We've got to make those [2010] picks work.''

 

Because of the startup nature of the program, Kokinis said he's been spending time in and around the team this fall, instead of concentrating his efforts on on-campus scouting. He said he'd do that after the college season. If I were him, I'd accelerate the process. I'd be spending three days at Texas turning over every stone on Colt McCoy, and three in Norman looking at Sam Bradford -- as well as extensive time looking at the other quarterbacks in the 2010 draft, like Tim Tebow and Jevan Snead. That's more important than whatever's happening in his building right now.

 

This is a startup program, like Kansas City and St. Louis and Tampa Bay. Anyone who thought the first season would be pretty had misplaced hopes. Though if I were owner Randy Lerner, I'd have moved heaven and earth and acceded to anything Scott Pioli wanted to make him franchise czar. The fact is Lerner hired a coach who'd had a good startup record with the Jets. But for Mangini to succeed, he has to make sure he avoids the same mistakes a coach he knows well, Bill Belichick, made in Cleveland in the first half of the Nineties. Belichick's plan was smart, but his communication and execution were not. Those are the things Mangini's got to work on in Cleveland.

 

By the way, Lerner's not going to cave after a year and sweep clean. He's tired of the coaching and front-office chaos, and I'm not saying he's going to give Mankinis three seasons like this one, but to think he'll fire the building again this winter is just not happening. This is what I'd say to Browns' fans: It took you years to get into this mess, and it's going to take you at least two years to get out of it.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...mail/index.html

 

Beanpot

 

 

Thanks Beans! It was very interesting and I think some good points were made. That said, you get the sense Peter King hasn't seen an ounce of this team this year because Braylon wasn't catching a thing, Wimbley has 4 sacks in just 4 games, Rogers IS a superstar, Alex Mack has been impressive in successive weeks. REALLY impressive IMO. Steinbach has a very good reputation and our oline is gelling to the extent that our QB isn't getting sacked too much while we've seen 2 different style of RBs exceeding 100 yards in successive weeks. Cribbs is the best in the business at setting up field position for the offense.

 

I think our biggest obstacle right now is all the new receivers that joined this team via the draft or free agency haven't had time to establish a chemistry. MoMass looked like he could have been an IDEAL #2 if opponents continued rolling the coverages to Braylon thew way Cincy did. That said, I'm not many WRs throughout the hjistory of the league (outside of Moss, Holt and Colston) were ready for every defense's #1 corner. That being the case, those fellers had some pretty legit WRs complimenting them like Ike Bruce, Cris Carter, Jake Reed, etc. We're still wondering what Robiskie looks like in a Cleveland uniform running routes.

 

Point I'm trying to make is that a HUGE step to competing weekly is what you have in the trenches on both sides of the ball. We have at least 1 All Pro on our d-line and 1 All pro on the o-line. If Mack keeps playing like he has, we might have 2 All Pros on that o-line.

 

The QB situation seems to turn our message board into a blend of Judge Judy and Jerry Springer. It's high intensity where people throw down in the cyber mosh pit. Quinn represented HOPE for alot of fans so what we saw out of him wasn't convenient and it actually turned some of us into thinking DA is now the lesser of 2 evils at least from a gameplanning chess match thing on Sundays. We just played Buffalo last week and I'll bet 95% of our fans didn't have the first idea of whio stared at Saefty for Buffalo. Considering they lost their 2nd and 3rd string MLB to injury - you'd think Safeties would be cheating up in the box enough to make the picture screen or replay every now and then for Buffalo. They did NOT.

 

Alot of fans are wondering why more people aren't concerned about 2 for 17. Well, all but 1 of those throws wasn't interceptable and prolly 60-70% of them hit receivers hands regardless of all the excuses. My feeling is this is coachable. NOW, if we were behind and needed to comeback because we couldn't hang with the opponent, I still don't miss Quinn throwing for for 6 yards when we need 10 yards just so somebody can remind me he had 6 of 8 harmless completions like that. Heading into week 4 I was so depressed, I was posting "looks like Colt McCoy" and not because I want our offense learning to crawl before it can walk all over again.

 

Truth is I needed these last 2 weeks to show me what IS going right for us like:

1) Oline

2) Dline

3) STs

4) Running Game

5) More draft picks

6) Less Divas

7) Return of Sacks for Wimbley

8) Attitude & desire restored to game day for at least 60 minutes the last 2 weeks

9) A concrete plan that recognizes it's taken 10 years to get as bad as we got by the end of 2008 and the first 3 weeks of 09

10) Don't take out previous miseries on the NEWCOMERS. They WANT to be here so MAYBE we ought to make them feel more welcome than hurrying up to boo them out of habit. If we want future FAs to consider Cleveland, booing at the first incompletion won't entice anyone to want this type of environment.

 

I imagine there will be ups and downs the rest of the way in 09; but you HAVE to like what was captured in that article regarding Mangini and Kokkinos statements. Some people think Mangini is a jerk and can't wait to trash him BUT we have to get rid of the bad attitudes capable of spreading onto others in the locker room. That's not easy but absolutely necessary. Nuff said - sorry for the ramble.

- Tom F.

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It all comes down to the 2010 draft for this current regime.

 

With 11 picks now in the hopper thanks to a few trades, it is vital that this regime hits on most of those picks. Most, meaning 7 or 8 guys that can contribute with a few future stars in there somewhere.

 

For those who wanted immediate return on guys like Edwards and Winslow, you're dreaming. Let's take a look at what those guys brought to the table for the Browns and let's do so separately.

 

First, Winslow. He's too banged up at this point in his career to be the type of player he was coming out of college. Is he better than anything the Browns have now? Absolutely. But, Winslow also was a cancer in the locker room despite his reputation for being a gameday player. But, let's be realistic. Tight end is not a keystone position in the NFL and getting rid of Winslow was a move made out of attitude and money. The Browns saved a lot of money by moving Winslow.

 

Second, Edwards. The New York Braylon will be a superstar. The Cleveland Braylon was a nightmare. Both on and off the field. And let's remember, the media is in love with Rex Ryan who can't do wrong and absolutely despises Mangini at the same time. Don't forget that. So everything Edwards does right in NY will be magnified and everything he does wron will be ignored. If you don't agree with my logic about the media, you haven't been paying attention to the LeBron-to-NY-in-2010 media campaign. Edwards would never have realized his potential here until the Browns got other pieces in place on offense, which won't be this year or next. I do agree with Grossi, though, that the Browns could have rolled the dice on there being no new CBA with the players after this season which would have made Edwards a RFA. That meant the Browns could have tendered Edwards and any team that matched it would have to give the Browns a #1 and #3 pick in the '10 draft. But that's a gamble, no question. With a new CBA in place, Edwards goes where he chooses and the Browns are left holding the bag.

 

No question the Browns roster in '09 is not better than the '08 one. But what the hell did that roster do that we really needed to hold on to? What's really more important here is that the 2010 and 2011 rosters and so on are better than what we currently have today.

 

So to come back to my original point, save the drama about these moves until after the future picks are made and we see what we've got.

 

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Mack is starting to look like a big-time center and I believe Rex Hadnot can be a big-time right guard. If we get a pretty damn serious right tackle, this line will be as good as any in the NFL, with depth to boot (veterans Womack, St. Clair, and Fraley). I'd target early round 2 for a big-time starting RT.

O-line gurus are really excited about Idaho offensive guard Mike Iupati. He could go as high as the late 1st round.

 

He's playing LG in this clip:

 

 

I like Illinois OG Jon Asamoah: he's got a nice combination of size (6'5", 315 lbs.), power, and smarts (won award for having the highest grades on the team). Plays RG for the Fighting Illini but is athletic enough to move to the left side, if need be. He could be had in the 2nd, maybe even the 3rd round.

 

Not sure I like any of the early round RT prospects, but that could change.

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I dont know. I've just never bought into the "we need the most draft picks!" mantra. When do we start demanding that these draft picks produce?

 

Why are we trading away talent because "they don't fit the direction of the team" just to acquire more draft picks? We brought in 9 guys from April. Only 2 have contributed.

 

All last night, the discussion was on Lee & Henning (phins QB coach & OC) and how they just design an offense to what suits the talent they have on the team. They beat a damn good Jets team last night. Why in the crap can't our coaches do that?

 

p.s. Great article Beans, "thanks"

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I dont know. I've just never bought into the "we need the most draft picks!" mantra. When do we start demanding that these draft picks produce?

 

Why are we trading away talent because "they don't fit the direction of the team" just to acquire more draft picks? We brought in 9 guys from April. Only 2 have contributed.

 

All last night, the discussion was on Lee & Henning (phins QB coach & OC) and how they just design an offense to what suits the talent they have on the team. They beat a damn good Jets team last night. Why in the crap can't our coaches do that?

 

p.s. Great article Beans, "thanks"

 

Legacy, I won't say that you're wrong because in some situations,...I would say that you can certainly mold a system to the players but this group of players needed blowing up. Of the players that Mangini and Kokinis have CUT....the majority (all but two) are out of the league. The locker room under Crennel was undisciplined and you risked becoming the Bengals of the early Marvin Lewis years. Miami's offensive line played out of its mind last night and we don't have Ronnie or Ricky to run it. Fasano is IMO underrated and Ted Ginn showed up last night.

 

Mangini and Belichick want guys to whom football is important. They don't want guys who like what football "gives" them but guys who live and breathe football and compete. As soon as Mangini was signed, K2 was a goner. No one with that amount of malcontent in him is going to last in a Belichick-Parcells-Mangini type of locker room. You can say that Mangini's resume doesn't match the other two but we all emulate our mentors when it comes to professional behavior and he's got to instill the discipline. The media will have you believe that when EM does it, it's torture but when someone else does it, it's discipline. Of the players in NY who were "glad" to see him go, I doubt you'll find a Pro Bowler amongst them. One reason that we won that ugly game on Sunday was that we only had three penalties. That's discipline. K2 is not a disciplined football player. Braylon Edwards can be a disciplined player if he wants to be but to be sure....Eric Mangini will not BEG anyone to get excited about being a Cleveland Brown. He did a mea culpa with Shaun Rogers and I don't think he gets enough credit for smoothing that over.

 

I think that people lose sight of another piece of this decision making process: George Kokinis. George Kokinis is a tough-minded guy who learned at the side of one of the best GMs in football. He and his coach are on the same page which is something that's been lacking in Cleveland and that's a positive. Give him some credit.

 

I am not saying that everyone needs to go from last year's team but when it comes to doing the tough things it takes to win in this league, some guys are up to it and some guys aren't and of the latter group...they can become the cancers that divide the team and hold it back. Just my perspective.

 

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Here's a couple reasons why the draft matters to teams like the Browns: Joe Thomas and Alex Mack. They're becoming cornerstones on a unit that just might be viable already and terrific after one more draft and free agency season. This team is in serious rebuilding mode, not one or two free agents away, and we need to draft 21 or 22 year old kids who will be part of our team in 2011 and beyond, about the time we might actually be good.

 

Not this coming offseason but the next, I think for the first time in ages, we'll be able to look at maybe 2-3 spots that need upgraded, and might choose to fill one of them with an overpriced free agent in the name of winning.

 

And that will happen by going into next April's draft when 11 or more likely 12 picks (after a quarterback or two is traded) and hopefully moving around to end up with 7 picks in the first few rounds.

 

The smartest thing the Browns can do with this season is find out what we have in Robiskie, Massoquoi, Veikune, and Francies. Play them and keep playing them. Same for Chanci Stuckey. Some of them will become building blocks for 2011, others won't... but there's only one way to find out. Jackson, Wimbley, Pool and Wright are young draft picks who've rounded into serious NFL starters. We need a few more.

 

Can't argue with too much of that at all.

 

We need to find a dominant defender or two in this next draft. Since we always seem to hire these so-called defensive gurus as head coaches, why not let them coach to their strength? We desperately need a pass rush, and an intimidating LB crew. We stop the opponent from scoring, we have a chance to compete...how simple is that?

 

If our scouting is great, and we actually draft smartly, we might be able to get away with drafting a QB in round #1, and pick up defensive help with these extra picks.

 

We're long overdue, time to turn this around.

 

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Earle - For the last 4 years, save for maybe Josh Cribbs, there was no one who played harder on the field than Kellen Winslow. He could have very well been a ding dong off of it (and by many accounts, he was). Miami didn't need a major dose of TNT after their 1-15 season? Some would argue they did.

 

I understand about the discipline and I'm all for it. Look, my HS lacrosse coach made me run around the campus (3+ miles) every time I shot "high" (putting the rock in the upper 90 corner was way sexier than bouncing one past the goalie) in practice - but not in games. But he was a HOF'er, All-American and also knew how to draw up a play in the dirt, and adjust our gameplan by exploiting mismatches to win. I was fast, could score when called upon, and could shut-down damn near anyone when playing defense. I (and the rest of the team) did what we were asked because we got results. So, if I didn't score a goal in a game because I was in the opposing team's top attackman's back pocket (and ear) all game, then so be it. WE WON CHAMPIONSHIPS. And this in a game where you turn-over 1/3 of your roster every year.

 

How does this translate to the Browns? With a little creativity (I'm being reasonable, not suggesting we use the VEE or the Spread option), and accountability (Anderson & Royal shouldn't see another down - Barton is getting close), the NFL can be a win now league. Winning and rebuilding are not mutually exclusive, if you have a smart and effective Coach (capitalized for emphasis - meaning, not just the guy with the headset on the sideline).

 

But again, I'm not completely disagreeing with your post. Just saying that the house-cleaning can occur with success at the same time if you know what you're doing.

 

 

And shep-

I agree with you too. We've got most of the pieces in place but haven't we been saying that for 3+ years?

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Earle - For the last 4 years, save for maybe Josh Cribbs, there was no one who played harder on the field than Kellen Winslow. He could have very well been a ding dong off of it (and by many accounts, he was). Miami didn't need a major dose of TNT after their 1-15 season? Some would argue they did.

 

I understand about the discipline and I'm all for it. Look, my HS lacrosse coach made me run around the campus (3+ miles) every time I shot "high" (putting the rock in the upper 90 corner was way sexier than bouncing one past the goalie) in practice - but not in games. But he was a HOF'er, All-American and also knew how to draw up a play in the dirt, and adjust our gameplan by exploiting mismatches to win. I was fast, could score when called upon, and could shut-down damn near anyone when playing defense. I (and the rest of the team) did what we were asked because we got results. So, if I didn't score a goal in a game because I was in the opposing team's top attackman's back pocket (and ear) all game, then so be it. WE WON CHAMPIONSHIPS. And this in a game where you turn-over 1/3 of your roster every year.

 

How does this translate to the Browns? With a little creativity (I'm being reasonable, not suggesting we use the VEE or the Spread option), and accountability (Anderson & Royal shouldn't see another down - Barton is getting close), the NFL can be a win now league. Winning and rebuilding are not mutually exclusive, if you have a smart and effective Coach (capitalized for emphasis - meaning, not just the guy with the headset on the sideline).

 

But again, I'm not completely disagreeing with your post. Just saying that the house-cleaning can occur with success at the same time if you know what you're doing.

 

 

And shep-

I agree with you too. We've got most of the pieces in place but haven't we been saying that for 3+ years?

 

Fairly stated but I could and will willingly argue that Bill Parcells came in and fired Cam Cameron (one year into his deal), jettisoned his chosen "QB of the future" (J. Beck) and rid himself of the franchise player (J. Taylor) who wasn't about the Parcells program. This Browns team needed a lot of changes and Mangini will keep guys that are worth keeping (he's not stupid). I don't believe that he thinks Anderson's stats are up to par but I do think that he believes Anderson gives him a better chance to win by what he forces the defense to do. I don't want to get into another QB debate but this is an example of the "better chance to win" theory being about what's in the meeting room and on the coaches' film rather than what's in the stat column. The most important stat is a "W" and we have one now. While we can all roll our eyes at 2 for 17 passing, those that were in attendance at the game will admit that the winds were swirling at 40 mph and that there were more than a couple well-thrown balls that were simply dropped. Can you hang that on DA? I don't know how you can but more importantly,...I don't think EM would and honestly, he's the one who matters.

 

I think that most people who write anything about the Browns nationally don't even watch the Browns' games. I don't think they realize how bad this locker room was when the new regime arrived.

 

That said, I'm thinking that by the end of this season, the Browns will come around. I'm not predicting anything more than "come out and smack you in the mouth" competitiveness and desire but I think that there will be at least one game this season that the Browns upset someone's apple cart. That's not a stretch in my opinion.

 

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I'm definitely not hanging any of the legitimate drops on Anderson. (4-5ish) It's a total concentration and spirit killer for Anderson. I think that our coaches do not actually know what they have at quarterback right now. They made a mistake, and are using the "best chance to win" to cover it up. They can fall back to the 2007 season for a response as to why Anderson is starting (just like many on the board are doing).

 

But yeah, I'm in total agreement regarding the necessity of the locker-room overhaul. The aww-shucks attitude garners no respect. (Trying. to. avoid. another rip. on. DA.) whew. And the no-discipline leads to the mental failure we see out there every week (and saw for the past several years). Drops included.

 

 

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Legacy, as bad as it sounds....DA was the pick all along and if EM's track record with Pennington vs. Clemens can be of any guidance then he's just going to pick the guy and move on without wasting any more time on it. Some might argue that it's better that way because it muffles the arguing but in the end (as we all know) you don't really have a QB in that instance.

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Sanchez doesnt seem to have any trouble throwing to BE. Imagine what we could have had for Quinn.

Remember the night he and DA put up against the Giants on Monday Night last year? It dwarfed that last game.

 

Just reinforces that Braylon gives effort when Braylon gives effort. And he quit doing it outside of Monday Night for Mangini and Crennell before him.

 

He had to go.

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Remember the night he and DA put up against the Giants on Monday Night last year? It dwarfed that last game.

 

Just reinforces that Braylon gives effort when Braylon gives effort. And he quit doing it outside of Monday Night for Mangini and Crennell before him.

 

He had to go.

Cant argue with that. Time will tell if BE only gave effort for a scattershot QB who got all of the credit for the 2007 season despite the circus catches routinely made by BE & K2 only when the rest of the world was watching (MNF's), instead of every Sunday. Because in his mind, the UM-tOSU thing existed, and why would he give it all for fans who didnt care for him?

 

(Just positing, I think for anyone to feel & act that way is completely ridiculous, but not out of the realm of possibility.)

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The pessimist view on Kok's quote is he's simply buying time.

 

Seriously, why would he say something like: "Savage did a great job assembling talent for the most part. We're only a few pieces away from being competitive." Even if they believed that (doubtful) they still would say something more like ... well .... what he said.

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I believe that Mangini and Kokinis turned over 26 players in the off season (cut or released) I think of those 26, 2 are on active rosters (53 man squads) and a couple on practice squads. I mean thats freakin bad..really bad. So it stands to reason theres a couple more guys who should be gone , but just can't be gone..YET. 11 draft picks is huge and allows a ton of manueving on Draft Day up or down depending what they are looking for.

 

Taking into account the Ravens drafts and the Jet drafts over the last 3-4 years I'm pretty confident that George and Eric will be bringin in some "Baller's".

 

Things are moving in the right direction for the Browns...FINALLY

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I'm not a predictor, but in saying that we will give the Steelers a good game..The defense looks like its starting to grasp the concepts that are being taught and good pressure on Ben will occur.

 

I'm not trying to criticize Romeo and Phil but the "fact" in my last post is a telling one for sure

I think EM and GK have a plan and are working toward that moving forward.

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I just really can't over estimate how important it is for a regime to be able to get the players to buy into what ever system they are building. Yes you need good players too. But you can have the best athlete in the game, and if he doesn't buy into your system, it's like driving your ferrari with the parking break stuck on.

 

See TO as an example on many teams.

 

And it's why great head coaches make average players look exceptional.

 

 

GOOD POINT J! And alot of people don't realize the addition by subtraction of Divas that may have this elite talent but they ALSO think they know more than the new coaching staff workngn with them.

 

Here's a reality - how many wins does the Winslow's new team have since he joined them? Okay, how many wins have the Jets enjoyed since Edwards arrived?

 

It sure seems like Shaun Rogers is emerging as the leader we'd hoped he'd be especially in the last 2 weeks. Is it a coincidence that this is around the same time Braylon was sent packing and all that was in the works behind the scenes?

 

SOMETIMES the hope is one of the Superstars takes pride that he's the man and he becomes MORE of a Ray Lewis type of leader (not so much in greatness but via EXAMPLE). I pretty much learned the difference in the Pittsburgh Steelers WITH #43 and WITHOUT him. It's enormous. He's not loud but who outworks the most talented player on that defense?

 

I can't join the media people that want to jump on every impefection that remains in the first season of transition with the new brass. All I can do is feel upbeat we have a STRONG pulse from the following young players:

Joe Thomas

Jerome Harrison

Alex Mack

Abraham Elam

Kam Wimbley (he's BACK)

Eric Wright

Josh Cribbs

MoMass (we'll really see this when we get a legit #1 WR as we saw when Cincy rolled their coverages to Edwards)

D'Qwell Jackson (last couple of weeks showed me something)

Lawrence Vickers

 

I don't think we're as far away as it appears sometimes. Refraining from the QB Civil War in this thread, I think the places we're hurting most is TE and at the #1 WR spot. I wish Braylon well in NY - BUT that's not the place you want to be dropping passes on 3rd down at home. They'll be a little more vicious in the press when/if that re-surfaces there. I promise!

- Tom F.

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