WPB Dawg Fan Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I have been reading all the articles about how many passes the Browns receivers have dropped...and I find it interesting that what the ARTICLES are claiming doesn't jive with what the STATS are showing. For example...the ARTICLES claim that the Browns have had a MINIMUM of 16 drops over the past two weeks alone. In fact, several have attributed at least 6 dropped passes to MoMass during those two games. Now, compare that with one of the best sites for dropped passes (washingtonpost.com). It shows of the top AFC pass dropping players, that we have 4 guys with 3 or more drops: Royal 5 Stuckey 5 Momass 4 Harrison 3 That is for THE ENTIRE SEASON!!! So, according to the UNINFORMED, AGENDA DRIVEN mass media...the Browns have 16 drops in just two games...but according to NFL STAT GUYS (who accurately had BE with 16 drops last year), the Browns TOP FOUR OFFENDERS only have 17 TOTAL over 6 games. That is mathematically impossible. Add into this, the MEDIA has MoMass with 6 in just two games...but the STAT GUYS have him with 4 for the season. What I am getting at is that we are hearing a lot of crap about our receiving corp that is just not analytical. It is opinion driven...and makes no sense at all. So, unless you want to call into question EVERY OTHER TEAMS DROP STATS (by the way, Carson Palmer's top 4 guys have 15 drops so far...and he still completes 59.1% of his passes and has a QBR of 78.3), you have to admit that the MEDIA has blown this dropped passes thing completely out of proportion. Of course, it doesn't help when Daboll and Mangini are feeding the fire...it almost feels like they are buying DA time to get past NEXT WEEK!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELandMILIDH Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Everybody judges dropped passes differently. For me if it hit you in the hands it should be caught, weather its low, high, to the side if it hits you in the hands you gotta catch it. Not everybody beleives that, thats why theres different opinions on catchable and non catchable balls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DestinFunk Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I have been reading all the articles about how many passes the Browns receivers have dropped...and I find it interesting that what the ARTICLES are claiming doesn't jive with what the STATS are showing. For example...the ARTICLES claim that the Browns have had a MINIMUM of 16 drops over the past two weeks alone. In fact, several have attributed at least 6 dropped passes to MoMass during those two games. Now, compare that with one of the best sites for dropped passes (washingtonpost.com). It shows of the top AFC pass dropping players, that we have 4 guys with 3 or more drops: Royal 5 Stuckey 5 Momass 4 Harrison 3 That is for THE ENTIRE SEASON!!! So, according to the UNINFORMED, AGENDA DRIVEN mass media...the Browns have 16 drops in just two games...but according to NFL STAT GUYS (who accurately had BE with 16 drops last year), the Browns TOP FOUR OFFENDERS only have 17 TOTAL over 6 games. That is mathematically impossible. Add into this, the MEDIA has MoMass with 6 in just two games...but the STAT GUYS have him with 4 for the season. What I am getting at is that we are hearing a lot of crap about our receiving corp that is just not analytical. It is opinion driven...and makes no sense at all. So, unless you want to call into question EVERY OTHER TEAMS DROP STATS (by the way, Carson Palmer's top 4 guys have 15 drops so far...and he still completes 59.1% of his passes and has a QBR of 78.3), you have to admit that the MEDIA has blown this dropped passes thing completely out of proportion. Of course, it doesn't help when Daboll and Mangini are feeding the fire...it almost feels like they are buying DA time to get past NEXT WEEK!?!?! I get your point ..but i dont know about you...i watch a lot of other games..and sure drops happen..but not at the rate this team is seeing..weird clean grabs right off the hands in the open...one after another..multiple receivers...i dont get it..and it did happen some with quinn as well...not just a DA homer here...but most blame it on da's "gun"...while i admit his touch passes are crap and he can take th eblame for those 15 yard outs wide open in the numbers is all on the WR... like my dad always told me as a boy if your hand can touch the ball you should catch it...no excuses. and whats the issue with them buying time?...no point in this team dumping 11 mill more into bad QBs ..wait it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandwagon Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Who cares what the "Media" say... How many passes did you see dropped in the last 2 games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Everybody judges dropped passes differently. For me if it hit you in the hands it should be caught, weather its low, high, to the side if it hits you in the hands you gotta catch it. Not everybody beleives that, thats why theres different opinions on catchable and non catchable balls I bet every QB that has ever lived would agree with you (or at least WANT to agree with you)...but here is the reality. Passes are often TOUCHED by the hands despite never having a real chance of being caught. 1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed 2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed 3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed 4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it) 5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed these are just a few...and note the WITH SPEED comment. A ball thrown low can be caught much more readily if it has touch....same goes for a top pass (look at Eli Manning's pass in the SB caught on the guys head...notice it was NOT zipped)...same goes for a receiver coming out of a blind cut as it gives them time to react...and with a ball BEHIND the receiver as well, as they can make an adjustment. Even though a receiver can make adjustments to any pass, the ability to make them AND do it quickly enough for a ball without touch..it adds up to the receiver is being asked to do it all and the QB is getting the benefit of the doubt. How much nicer if he actually put some TOUCH on it...or had some ACCURACY...EITHER ONE please. But lacking BOTH equals drops (or in my opinion, uncatchable passes...and apparently my opinion is shared by the statisticians). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 and whats the issue with them buying time?...no point in this team dumping 11 mill more into bad QBs ..wait it out I actually agree with it...why put the team in a position where they can't dump quinn if he fails...or have to pay him huge even if he is mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Who cares what the "Media" say... How many passes did you see dropped in the last 2 games? I would say between 7-10 for the last 2 games...but NOT 16. Still, too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maintainin125 Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I bet every QB that has ever lived would agree with you (or at least WANT to agree with you)...but here is the reality. Passes are often TOUCHED by the hands despite never having a real chance of being caught. 1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed 2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed 3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed 4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it) 5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed these are just a few...and note the WITH SPEED comment. A ball thrown low can be caught much more readily if it has touch....same goes for a top pass (look at Eli Manning's pass in the SB caught on the guys head...notice it was NOT zipped)...same goes for a receiver coming out of a blind cut as it gives them time to react...and with a ball BEHIND the receiver as well, as they can make an adjustment. Even though a receiver can make adjustments to any pass, the ability to make them AND do it quickly enough for a ball without touch..it adds up to the receiver is being asked to do it all and the QB is getting the benefit of the doubt. How much nicer if he actually put some TOUCH on it...or had some ACCURACY...EITHER ONE please. But lacking BOTH equals drops (or in my opinion, uncatchable passes...and apparently my opinion is shared by the statisticians). If a receiver in the NFL gets two hands on the ball, the ball should be caught point blank period. No matter how hard it is thrown these guys are getting too much money. Maybe u should watch some film on John Elway or Brett Favre in their prime two of the strongest armed qbs ever. There receivers caught the ball and please dont say the balls were thrown perfectly cause your fooling yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELandMILIDH Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed (bad excuse, should be caught) 2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed (Rarely happens, usually receiver miss times jump) 3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed (tough one but if it hits you in the hands, still gotta catch it) 4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it) ( is this the NFL?) 5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed (refer to answer on #3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 If a receiver in the NFL gets two hands on the ball, the ball should be caught point blank period. No matter how hard it is thrown these guys are getting too much money. Maybe u should watch some film on John Elway or Brett Favre in their prime two of the strongest armed qbs ever. There receivers caught the ball and please dont say the balls were thrown perfectly cause your fooling yourself. both have ACCURACY! An ACCURATELY thrown fastball is catchable...but an INACCURATE fastball is through to the screens...and in this case, 'dropped'. And not once have I said a QB has to be PERFECT. But rather it is a COMBINATION of issues that is the problem. Elway and Favre are both MASTERS at leading a receiver on slants. They were also both very good at PUTTING AIR under a pass when necessary...and TAKING A LITTLE OFF on the short passes. People love to point out big armed QB's with success as an excuse for current big armed QB's that are NOT successful...but fail to realize that those guys also had touch and finesse. Otherwise, they would all be Jeff George's (happens to be whom I like our current guy to). As for two hands...that I agree with you on...and that is what I used to come up with my 7-10 drops. Any more than that and you are counting finger tips, out of bounds passes, and diving almost got its. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed (bad excuse, should be caught) 2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed (Rarely happens, usually receiver miss times jump) 3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed (tough one but if it hits you in the hands, still gotta catch it) 4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it) ( is this the NFL?) 5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed (refer to answer on #3) wow...you must have glue on iron fingers and telepathy to know exactly where the pass is at all times...not to mention perfect timing (which you obviously don't require from your QB) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELandMILIDH Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 wow...you must have glue on iron fingers and telepathy to know exactly where the pass is at all times...not to mention perfect timing (which you obviously don't require from your QB) No im just saying if you get 2 hands on the ball it should be caught. The QB's dont have perfect scenerio's to throw the ball, they throw on the move, while getting hit, and with 300 pounders in there line of sight. You cant expect everythrow to be perfect. Most of the balls that Browns receivers have dropped have been very catchable balls. And its not Just DA, it happened with Quinn as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed (bad excuse, should be caught) 2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed (Rarely happens, usually receiver miss times jump) 3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed (tough one but if it hits you in the hands, still gotta catch it) 4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it) ( is this the NFL?) 5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed (refer to answer on #3) Let me be a little more fair in my response... 1. Run across your yard as fast as you can and try to pick up an empty pail without tripping (with both hands)...now try and do it when somebody throws it to you....now try it when they GUN it at you. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail? 2. Try jumping up and touching something at the top of your reach (you will miss from time to time)...now try it with a moving object (try a fan blade)....now try to hit a specific blade on HIGH SPEED. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail? 3. Try standing with your back to your friend about 5 or 10 yards apart. Have him say now and lob a ball at you. Now try it with him throwing it hard...then finally try it when you are counting to 5 and hoping he is counting the same speed. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail? 4. Do you really have no idea why such a high premium is placed on QB's that throw a tight spiral??? 5. Try facing to your right, then reaching behind you with 2 hands and catching a ball. Now try it running. Now try it running as fast as you can AND with the ball coming at you FAST. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail? Just because as a WR you were able to overcome MOST of the QB's bad placement/timing and got your hands on the ball doesn't mean you are automatically going to be able to hang onto it. And I didn't even bring in the concept of shoulder pads, and 250lb LB's hitting you as you try to catch it...or sidelines...or double teams.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPB Dawg Fan Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 No im just saying if you get 2 hands on the ball it should be caught. The QB's dont have perfect scenerio's to throw the ball, they throw on the move, while getting hit, and with 300 pounders in there line of sight. You cant expect everythrow to be perfect. Most of the balls that Browns receivers have dropped have been very catchable balls. And its not Just DA, it happened with Quinn as well. I agree we had drops by BOTH QB's...and I also agree that there have been some VERY CATCHABLE passes dropped. But the media is making is sound like it is ALL on the WR's. Like I said in the OP...look at the STATS. They have come up with CRITERIA that they go by...and WE used them with IMPUNITY when deriding BE last year...but now that they point the finger on the MEDIA and our QB...we think they don't apply and that the 2 hand rule wins out. It just isn't that cut and dry. Do we have an issue with the right side of the OL....yes, we do. Do we have an issue with tipped passes (which is a huge portion on the QB as well), yes we do. Is the QB living in a bubble? No...but to coin your phrase...ISN'T THIS THE NFL??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELandMILIDH Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Im not saying its all on the WR, its the whole team. If the o-line doesnt provide time, then the throw is rushed which messes up the timing and accuracy. Teams that win consistently overcome them types of things by picking each other up. If they need a tough catch, they make it. We cant seem to make the easy catches. I understand your points, i dont get mad if its a tough behind the back catch or whatever, but most of them go through there hands and hit them in the head (little exagerrated). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I have been reading all the articles about how many passes the Browns receivers have dropped...and I find it interesting that what the ARTICLES are claiming doesn't jive with what the STATS are showing. For example...the ARTICLES claim that the Browns have had a MINIMUM of 16 drops over the past two weeks alone. In fact, several have attributed at least 6 dropped passes to MoMass during those two games. Now, compare that with one of the best sites for dropped passes (washingtonpost.com). It shows of the top AFC pass dropping players, that we have 4 guys with 3 or more drops: Royal 5 Stuckey 5 Momass 4 Harrison 3 That is for THE ENTIRE SEASON!!! So, according to the UNINFORMED, AGENDA DRIVEN mass media...the Browns have 16 drops in just two games...but according to NFL STAT GUYS (who accurately had BE with 16 drops last year), the Browns TOP FOUR OFFENDERS only have 17 TOTAL over 6 games. That is mathematically impossible. Add into this, the MEDIA has MoMass with 6 in just two games...but the STAT GUYS have him with 4 for the season. What I am getting at is that we are hearing a lot of crap about our receiving corp that is just not analytical. It is opinion driven...and makes no sense at all. So, unless you want to call into question EVERY OTHER TEAMS DROP STATS (by the way, Carson Palmer's top 4 guys have 15 drops so far...and he still completes 59.1% of his passes and has a QBR of 78.3), you have to admit that the MEDIA has blown this dropped passes thing completely out of proportion. Of course, it doesn't help when Daboll and Mangini are feeding the fire...it almost feels like they are buying DA time to get past NEXT WEEK!?!?! Stat guys probably make a subjective opinion on the quality of the throw based on whether it was a "drop" or not. As far as I'm concerned, our team had 10 drops in the Buffalo game (4 from MoMass alone). If it hits them in both hands, long enough prior to taking a hit, that they should be able to bring it into their body, it should be a catch, regardless of whether the throw was poor or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Of course, it doesn't help when Daboll and Mangini are feeding the fire...it almost feels like they are buying DA time to get past NEXT WEEK!?!?! boo hoo poor Quinnie. Along the same lines, I heard stats.inc claimed the Quinnster was victimized by 4 drops this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 What I am getting at is that we are hearing a lot of crap about our receiving corp that is just not analytical. It is opinion driven...and makes no sense at all. I agree with this. It's like last year vs Denver. Quinn fires one over Winslow's head on 4th down to lose the game. His fans and the media call it a drop to this day. Stats.inc recorded no drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I bet every QB that has ever lived would agree with you (or at least WANT to agree with you)...but here is the reality. Passes are often TOUCHED by the hands despite never having a real chance of being caught. 1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed 2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed 3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed 4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it) 5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed these are just a few...and note the WITH SPEED comment. A ball thrown low can be caught much more readily if it has touch....same goes for a top pass (look at Eli Manning's pass in the SB caught on the guys head...notice it was NOT zipped)...same goes for a receiver coming out of a blind cut as it gives them time to react...and with a ball BEHIND the receiver as well, as they can make an adjustment. Even though a receiver can make adjustments to any pass, the ability to make them AND do it quickly enough for a ball without touch..it adds up to the receiver is being asked to do it all and the QB is getting the benefit of the doubt. How much nicer if he actually put some TOUCH on it...or had some ACCURACY...EITHER ONE please. But lacking BOTH equals drops (or in my opinion, uncatchable passes...and apparently my opinion is shared by the statisticians). I absolutely agree. Anderson tends to throw all short passes not only fast, but with a downward trajectory (also may be why a 6'6" tall QB gets passes batted down?). Sorry folks, but Jerry Rice would have had a tough time catching that pass when it's thrown behind him. WHAT is the "common denominator" here...FOUR receivers or ONE QB? I would like the Browns to have a successful QB. If the choice is Anderson, then I want HIM to succeed, but he will NOT as long as he is not held accountable for the terrible results on these short passes. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Let me be a little more fair in my response... 1. Run across your yard as fast as you can and try to pick up an empty pail without tripping (with both hands)...now try and do it when somebody throws it to you....now try it when they GUN it at you. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail? Easy, done it (with a ball, wouldn't want try and catch an empty pail), hard-but done it. 2. Try jumping up and touching something at the top of your reach (you will miss from time to time)...now try it with a moving object (try a fan blade)....now try to hit a specific blade on HIGH SPEED. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail? Dumb argument. 3. Try standing with your back to your friend about 5 or 10 yards apart. Have him say now and lob a ball at you. Now try it with him throwing it hard...then finally try it when you are counting to 5 and hoping he is counting the same speed. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail? How often have you seen Peyton Manning do the same thing with his receivers, and the announcers lauding the timing? The only reason the receivers can't catch this ball, is because there is a lack of trust between them and the QB that the ball will be there when they break. In actuality, the ball should be there as soon as they break. That's when they are the most open and the most able to get some YAC. The fact that "OUR" receivers aren't catching these balls, says that they aren't trusting that DA will actually put the ball there on the break. 4. Do you really have no idea why such a high premium is placed on QB's that throw a tight spiral??? Um... so? Kosar didn't throw tight spirals very often, yet his receivers didn't drop balls like they were hot potatoes. 5. Try facing to your right, then reaching behind you with 2 hands and catching a ball. Now try it running. Now try it running as fast as you can AND with the ball coming at you FAST. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail? If they get two hands on the ball, they should catch it. I don't care the scenario. Notice I said two hands. Not two sets of fingertips. There are tons of stories of WR's breaking fingers on Elway and Favre. But they still caught the balls. Just because as a WR you were able to overcome MOST of the QB's bad placement/timing and got your hands on the ball doesn't mean you are automatically going to be able to hang onto it. But you should catch a majority of the balls when you get two hands on them. Period. And I didn't even bring in the concept of shoulder pads, and 250lb LB's hitting you as you try to catch it...or sidelines...or double teams.... Wah! My pussy hurts! They play in the friggin NFL and have been playing with shoulder pads since pop warner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedawg Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Pro Tip: If you get paid millions of dollars to catch a football, catch the god damn football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 There were dropped passes when Quinn was playing and now there are drops when Anderson is playing so what does that mean? It means that our receivers are seriously lacking in concentration and can't catch the damn ball. There were a whole lot of passes that were thrown pretty good last week by Anderson that were dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadWombat Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Look, We know Mo Mass has trouble catching balls from his scouting report. We also know Royal is a blocking TE and can't catch. He had lots of dropped balls when he played with the bills before we got him. Jets fans complained about Stuckey dropping balls before he came here. Harrison has 3 drops because he's not a WR. And finally, Anderson doesn't know how to throw a short pass without putting a rocket on it. Anderson struggles with accuracy. Our receivers cant catch, and our QB throws too hard and too inaccurately. That about sums up our situation. Maybe Furrey and Robiski can save us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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