Mangini driving away GM candidates

[JoeSixPat]

Tough to tell if this is simply a matter of good GM candidates not wanting to be "picked" by Mangini, or not willing to come into another situation where they as GM don't have full authority, or if they just plain and simply don't like Mangini and worry that Lerner might acutally be serious about keeping him on...

 

But Mike Lombardi on the National Football Post is reporting that word around the league is that Mangnini's assertion that HE'LL continue to hold the power and in fact will help decide on the next GM is apparently keepign some candidates far away.

 

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Sunday...-Post-2152.html

 

Frankly I'm surprised the Brown fan base wasn't a bit more PO'd over Mangini letting his ego assert itself given his performance to date... but to think his comments are continuing to harm the future chances of this organization???

 

Lerner needs to step up and say that HE'S making the decision, will listen to the views of people in his circle and the GM will be allowed to... well, be the GM and hire or fire the coach - not the other way around.

 

The ironic thing is that had Mangini not made such an egotistic comment and been a bit more humble, the next GM might have kept him around.

 

Now, the next GM might have no choice BUT to fire Mangini if only to secure the fact that the GM is at the top of the organization, not the coach.

 

 

2. Some of the potential candidates (personnel men working in the NFL now) I chatted with who might be interested in placing their names in the hat for the GM position in Cleveland said they viewed Eric “The Secret” Mangini’s proclamation that he’ll be involved in the hiring process as a deal breaker. How can anyone work side by side with him when he wants to have all the authority?

 

[flipflop]

Tough to tell if this is simply a matter of good GM candidates not wanting to be "picked" by Mangini, or not willing to come into another situation where they as GM don't have full authority, or if they just plain and simply don't like Mangini and worry that Lerner might acutally be serious about keeping him on...

 

But Mike Lombardi on the National Football Post is reporting that word around the league is that Mangnini's assertion that HE'LL continue to hold the power and in fact will help decide on the next GM is apparently keepign some candidates far away.

 

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Sunday...-Post-2152.html

 

Frankly I'm surprised the Brown fan base wasn't a bit more PO'd over Mangini letting his ego assert itself given his performance to date... but to think his comments are continuing to harm the future chances of this organization???

 

Lerner needs to step up and say that HE'S making the decision, will listen to the views of people in his circle and the GM will be allowed to... well, be the GM and hire or fire the coach - not the other way around.

 

The ironic thing is that had Mangini not made such an egotistic comment and been a bit more humble, the next GM might have kept him around.

 

Now, the next GM might have no choice BUT to fire Mangini if only to secure the fact that the GM is at the top of the organization, not the coach.

 

 

 

Can you imagine if Dan Gilbert owned the Browns.....end this crap in 5 mins.

[ballpeen]

I haven't read everything that has been said, but this seems way out of proportion here.

 

I remember it being said Mangini will have input on who is selected, and I don't have a problem with that....he should, he is the head coach. Having input is a long way from him selecting the new GM....and really, it doesn't matter...I think we are looking at a spot above GM...and he won't have input in to that.

 

Whoever Lerner hires for President/Czar/COO..whatever you want to call it, that person will hire the GM, and both the GM and coach will answer to him, and that person will in the end hold all veto power over who we draft, who we trade, who we sign, what type of team we have, and who coaches.

 

I think the media has formed a mob mentality over Mangini and it just feeds on itself and there is a lot of unwarranted piling on at this point.

 

Lerner deserves some credit...it is like he is hiring for a position that many owners hold..shows he knows he is unable or unwilling to act in that role.

[kshutchins]

I think Mangini should be "involved" in the hiring process but should not make the final decision. He has to work with these people so he should have some role in meeting/talking with/evaluating them. The caveat is, he apparently thought he could work well with his friend and that didn't work out. Therefore, I expect there to be a lot of conversations about how the relationship will work.

[JoeSixPat]

I haven't read everything that has been said, but this seems way out of proportion here.

 

I remember it being said Mangini will have input on who is selected, and I don't have a problem with that....he should, he is the head coach. Having input is a long way from him selecting the new GM....and really, it doesn't matter...I think we are looking at a spot above GM...and he won't have input in to that.

 

Whoever Lerner hires for President/Czar/COO..whatever you want to call it, that person will hire the GM, and both the GM and coach will answer to him, and that person will in the end hold all veto power over who we draft, who we trade, who we sign, what type of team we have, and who coaches.

 

I think the media has formed a mob mentality over Mangini and it just feeds on itself and there is a lot of unwarranted piling on at this point.

 

Lerner deserves some credit...it is like he is hiring for a position that many owners hold..shows he knows he is unable or unwilling to act in that role.

 

 

I initally took Mangini's statement as a face-saving, whistling by the graveyard statement: "Yes of course I'll be involved in that decision" with everyone knowing that he'd only be involved in determining which new GM/Czar would be firing him.

 

I mean, what's he going to say in public? That he knows that rather than invigorate the fan base and drive up enthusiasm, interest, ratings, attendance, not to mention improve upon a 4-12 season, Mangini admits that he's done the exact opposite... and that any new credible GM/Czar will want to have a coach that actually DOES generate enthusiasm and demonstrate sound leadership and coaching skills while serving as a credible respected face of the organization?

 

Mangnini's approach didn't work in NY but one can't truly fault him for not learning his lessons. He was out of work for 8 days and got a better job, as GM/Coach with a raise thanks to Lerner. Why should the zebra change his stripes?

 

But it appears the GM candidates that Lombardi is talking to actually believe that Lerner DOES intend to insist that Mangini be involved and be retained, and retain decision making abilities on personnel.

 

And that's what this report reflects... the notion that such a situation is a MAJOR red flag for at least some GMs. It's a reflection that any GM or Czar that isn't allowed to come in and make any changes they see fit probably isn't going to have the positive impact the owner ultimately should want. And anyone willing to work in such conditions probably isn't worth having in the first place.

 

So it appears that at least among some GM candidates they view Lerner as insisting that Mangini remain as coach and defacto GM being given input into the hiring of who he'll be "reporting to" - just as he did with Kokinis who certainly didn't seem to have authority over Mangini, even though he was promised it.

 

That alone is going to limit the choice for GM candidates. Which is sad because this organization could really use a fresh start with a new GM and a new coach, both of whom could (and I emphasize could) turn things around and generate widespread enthusiasm and optimism about this organization.

 

Normally one would have gotten that with the decisions Lerner made in the offseason on hiring a GM and then letting the GM hire a respected coach. Lerner didn't choose to go that route and is paying for it... but it sounds like he's willing to do the same thing again here, and the GM candidates know this.

 

 

 

 

[BrownIndian]

The only way Lerner can attract big names is too assure them that they are the boss of everything (Mangini included). The ones that can help us are well respect throughout NFL and although each have their chinks, for them to risk their reputation to try to rebuild us is huge and Lerner should give them enough support to let them do things their way.

[Timugen]

Wow.

 

I realize that Mangina has really screwed the pooch so far, but after reading this thread the following thought occurred to me......is it even possible for any single person to so completely and utterly ruin (not hurt, hold back, etc.....but ruin) an NFL team as quickly and efficiently as this fraud has ruined our Browns?

 

Unfortunately, I think not. The degree of ineptitude this douche has reached is fcuking unimaginable.

 

Hopefully Lerner's just letting him think he's going to be "involved" in the GM hiring to just keep him content until he finds an acceptable replacement so he can shitcan his Charlie Brown-attempting-to-kick-a-football-and-falling-on-his-ass ass.

 

 

I'm convinced that one of these Sundays we'll see a monkey cornholing a donkey on the sideline....just because. At least it would be an improvement though.

[Mr. T]

Are we going to end up with another butch davis era?

 

or we could end up with a phil savage era.

 

Butch wanted full control but was bogged down with gm responsibilities and Failed

 

Savage wanted full control and all of the credit and Failed.

 

IMO whoever we hire should be smart and seasoned, not someone trying to make a name for themselves, they need to be confident enough that they wont care who gets the credit for when things go right.

 

 

 

[Alendor]

If Lerner cared, he would hire the best known guy available and let him do what is needed. Like Parcels in Miami, he brought in what was needed instead of letting a coach decide who his boss should be.....it's just another example of Lerner either being incompetent or complacent that it doesn't matter because the stands will be full no matter what he does.

 

not sure if you've been under a rock or not for the past week. But thats exactly what lerner is in the process of doing.

 

[Alendor]

You don't hire a man giving him complete control and say "oh BTW, Mangini is your head coach". Some people just don't get it.

 

ya you don't, I'm glad you've pointed that out, however its not relevent to this scenario, since whoever lerner hires will likely get rid of mangini after the season.

 

your just interested in jumping on the bash lerner bandwagon, your ignoring everything else thats going on, and assuming stuff is happening that supports your bash lerner mentality.

[kshutchins]

I initally took Mangini's statement as a face-saving, whistling by the graveyard statement: "Yes of course I'll be involved in that decision" with everyone knowing that he'd only be involved in determining which new GM/Czar would be firing him.

 

I mean, what's he going to say in public? That he knows that rather than invigorate the fan base and drive up enthusiasm, interest, ratings, attendance, not to mention improve upon a 4-12 season, Mangini admits that he's done the exact opposite... and that any new credible GM/Czar will want to have a coach that actually DOES generate enthusiasm and demonstrate sound leadership and coaching skills while serving as a credible respected face of the organization?

 

Mangnini's approach didn't work in NY but one can't truly fault him for not learning his lessons. He was out of work for 8 days and got a better job, as GM/Coach with a raise thanks to Lerner. Why should the zebra change his stripes?

 

But it appears the GM candidates that Lombardi is talking to actually believe that Lerner DOES intend to insist that Mangini be involved and be retained, and retain decision making abilities on personnel.

 

And that's what this report reflects... the notion that such a situation is a MAJOR red flag for at least some GMs. It's a reflection that any GM or Czar that isn't allowed to come in and make any changes they see fit probably isn't going to have the positive impact the owner ultimately should want. And anyone willing to work in such conditions probably isn't worth having in the first place.

 

So it appears that at least among some GM candidates they view Lerner as insisting that Mangini remain as coach and defacto GM being given input into the hiring of who he'll be "reporting to" - just as he did with Kokinis who certainly didn't seem to have authority over Mangini, even though he was promised it.

 

That alone is going to limit the choice for GM candidates. Which is sad because this organization could really use a fresh start with a new GM and a new coach, both of whom could (and I emphasize could) turn things around and generate widespread enthusiasm and optimism about this organization.

 

Normally one would have gotten that with the decisions Lerner made in the offseason on hiring a GM and then letting the GM hire a respected coach. Lerner didn't choose to go that route and is paying for it... but it sounds like he's willing to do the same thing again here, and the GM candidates know this.

 

If I were being considered for this position, I would certainly want to talk with the owner privately. There are issues that would need to be covered without Mangini or anyone else in the room. I'm not sure it would bother me at all to meet/talk with Mangini at some point in the process.

 

 

 

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

Wow.

 

I realize that Mangina has really screwed the pooch so far, but after reading this thread the following thought occurred to me......is it even possible for any single person to so completely and utterly ruin (not hurt, hold back, etc.....but ruin) an NFL team as quickly and efficiently as this fraud has ruined our Browns?

 

Unfortunately, I think not. The degree of ineptitude this douche has reached is fcuking unimaginable.

 

Hopefully Lerner's just letting him think he's going to be "involved" in the GM hiring to just keep him content until he finds an acceptable replacement so he can shitcan his Charlie Brown-attempting-to-kick-a-football-and-falling-on-his-ass ass.

 

 

I'm convinced that one of these Sundays we'll see a monkey cornholing a donkey on the sideline....just because. At least it would be an improvement though.

 

How can you say Mangini ruined the Browns? The team has been horrible since they returned to Cleveland. They were 4-12 last year, and got rid of the prima dona's and are rebuilding this year.....so exactly how does anyone with any common sense expect them to improve on the previous years record. Common sense tells you its going to be a tougher year, now nobody has enough patience to let Mangini build a winner. This year isn't even really a rebuilding year, its a demolishing year. Get rid of big useless contracts to free up money so he can actually sign big FA names (which he couldnt do last year), gain extra draft picks for next year, and created depth. Atleast give him 1 year of rebuilding before you judge him.

 

This is like you remodeling someone's house, tearing out the walls, then them saying they want to hire someone else because they dont like the job you did remodeling. Kinda dumb aint it?

[JoeSixPat]

not sure if you've been under a rock or not for the past week. But thats exactly what lerner is in the process of doing.

 

No. What Lerner has allowed to be "out there" and fester, bolstered by Mangini's comments that he'll "have input" into the selection of the Czar is that the Czar won't have the authority to fire or hire a coach, and that Mangini will continue to have authority over the Czar or GM

 

Like I said, at first I thought this was just Mangini letting his ego talk for him again, but apparently GM candidates believe that Lerner's statements, intent, and Mangini's comments, are painting a picture of how things will be... and they want no part of it.

 

As others have stated, it's amazing but true, that there are many respected and knowledgeable people in the football world who think that the Browns are worse off today than before Mangnini took over. That's saying a lot because things weren't good before. But hiring a new GM and coach (usually in that order) is supposed to reinvigorate a team and fanbase. The exact opposite has been achieved here and in real football terms the organization IS worse off today than a year ago.

 

 

[ballpeen]

No. What Lerner has allowed to be "out there" and fester, bolstered by Mangini's comments that he'll "have input" into the selection of the Czar is that the Czar won't have the authority to fire or hire a coach, and that Mangini will continue to have authority over the Czar or GM

 

 

OK, where exactly can this be verified....I saw he said he would have input on the GM...all the other stuff is stuff I missed or stuff you are fabricating.

 

Any links??

 

Really.....I am not calling you out here Joe....just wanting to find out what is true and what is BS that has morphed from one thing in to another over the last week or so.

 

[kshutchins]

No. What Lerner has allowed to be "out there" and fester, bolstered by Mangini's comments that he'll "have input" into the selection of the Czar is that the Czar won't have the authority to fire or hire a coach, and that Mangini will continue to have authority over the Czar or GM

 

When exactly did he say, or even hint, that this would be the case. I haven't read or heard this anywhere.

[steel88]

Wow.

 

I realize that Mangina has really screwed the pooch so far, but after reading this thread the following thought occurred to me......is it even possible for any single person to so completely and utterly ruin (not hurt, hold back, etc.....but ruin) an NFL team as quickly and efficiently as this fraud has ruined our Browns?

 

Unfortunately, I think not. The degree of ineptitude this douche has reached is fcuking unimaginable.

 

Hopefully Lerner's just letting him think he's going to be "involved" in the GM hiring to just keep him content until he finds an acceptable replacement so he can shitcan his Charlie Brown-attempting-to-kick-a-football-and-falling-on-his-ass ass.

 

 

I'm convinced that one of these Sundays we'll see a monkey cornholing a donkey on the sideline....just because. At least it would be an improvement though.

 

Dude I hate to break to ya but there was nothing to ruin to begin with.

[Flugel]

How can you say Mangini ruined the Browns? The team has been horrible since they returned to Cleveland. They were 4-12 last year, and got rid of the prima dona's and are rebuilding this year.....

 

Well said Nmills! I'm not sure why people think 1 simple character assassination means we've been doing everything else perfect since 1999. We're running out of people that would even CONSIDER coming to this organization to COACH it or MANAGE it.

 

The last regime started us out with Trent Doofus w/ Charlie Frye on deck. In addition, they signed the following free agent blanks: Jason Fiske, Ted Washington, Joe Andruzzi, Kevin Shaffer (a backup today in Chicago), Antwaan Peek, etc. We have very very very few late round draft picks making the team or resurfacing on other rosters.

 

The last regime left us Kellen Winslow's swollen gonads as the final straw that broke the camel's back in wanting ANYTHING else to do with Cleveland. Somehow that's all Mangini's fault today but I don't feel like smoking the crack to understand such a thought. All the while, he and Braylon dreamed of brighter lights - bigger cities. They were done here so what to do with it? And don't forget, Winslow left alot of his ability on that pavement. He couldn't EVER practice during the week which doesn't improve chemistry w/ QBs. When we wanted to seal the edge - we had to take him out or leave the D knowing which TE side we're running behind should we run on 3rd down.

 

Furthermore, how about understanding that Savage left us 4 draft picks for 2009 AFTER he took the league by storm with this 2008 draft featuring ZERO 1st day selections: Beau Bell, Martin Rucker, Ahtyba Rubin (1 keeper), Paul Hubbard, Alex Hall (ho-hum). If you can't fathom the sum of 9 draft picks looking at the crap we brought here in the 08 draft - be HAPPY we doubled 4 draft picks to 8 draft picks for 2009. Meanwhile Winslow & Edwards are a combined for 2-10 elsewhere. Jets were 3-1 before Edwards arrived.

 

It took us 3 years to determine Travis Wilson couldn't catch. 3 years. It took us 3 years to say - let's see what we have in Quinn. At least Mangini STARTED the kid for God sakes. I woulda sat his ass too if 3 of the 4 times we crossed the 50 were because Cribbs returned the ball past it. Now that I've DA again, I'm reminded why I couldn't wait to see what Quinn had in the first place.

 

Have I even touched on how bad Stallworth messed up commitments that were being made to him?

 

If we're being honest about Mangini - did he win when he had a healthy Chad Pennington? 10 times in 06. Did he win when he had a healthy Brett Favre? 9 times - is the current team projecting more wins over there? Doesn't look like it all of a sudden.

 

There's been a ton of blunders made heading into 2009 - so WHY chase one of the only guys interested in THIS challenge away? Your Billy Cowher said Hell No folks. And Marty? I think he was trying to be politically correct and polite in saying "no thanks." Word gets around about what front offices are in a state of chaos. There is NO Billy Cowhers, Jon Grudens or Mike Shanahans with enough dead dome cells to take on this Head Coaching gig. That being the case, let's let the ink dry on Mangini's contract before we think another Lerner firing and hiring is going to be the 1 thing missing from winning consistently. I've been hearing all about since 1999 and here we are folks. And btw, we fired Mo Carthon to get to Jeff Davidson, to get to Chud to get to Daboll and at some point - we're gonna need to give an OC something better to attack with than pawns. I don't think Houdini could make this passing game work with the crud we have at the skill positions. This is the worst roster of WRs and TEs I've ever laid my eyes on here. Our workhorse in the backfield looks like an ad for AARP every Sunday. There isn't breathing human that's gonna make the playcalling look any better, if we can't catch or throw and stay married to the idea of Jamal Lewis starting.

 

I'm not saying I know either way about Mangini. I'm saying I understand how crappy the deck was he was dealt. Firing him as fast as we can doesn't do anything but show the rest of America - see what you get for TRYING to right the wrong in Cleveland? This mess wasn't cooked up in a microwave - it began in 1999 and it's been slow-cooking ever since. Again, we had 4 draft picks scheduled for the 2009 draft and the draft volume doubled.

 

Quit whining about Mangini folks! Nuff said...

- Tom F.

[JoeSixPat]

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/..._expects_t.html

 

BEREA, Ohio -- Eric Mangini said he'll have input into the hiring of the new general manager of the Browns.

 

 

Mangini's first hand-picked general manager, George Kokinis, parted ways with the Browns on Monday, with no word from either side on whether he was fired or resigned.

 

"Yeah, Randy and I talk a lot, so I'm sure we'll be very engaged in that [decision]," said Mangini.

 

Asked if it would be hard to add a GM midway through the NFL season, Mangini said, "we're just going through the process, so I'm not sure how that will all play out. We have to really see what's there, see what's available."

 

He indicated that the Browns have strong enough pro and college departments to function without a GM for the rest of the season.

 

"I'm not sure what the timetable will be, but I do feel good about the process we have in place and the different departments we have in place," he said.

 

You're correct that there is no link where Lerner refuted Mangini's comments that Mangini would be involved in the hiring decisions.

 

By leaving Mangini's statement out there, even after reports that it's keeping GMs away, Lerner's silence is sending a very loud message to all credible GM candidates. I'd expect that silence is why the GM candidates that Lombardi interviewed are taking a "hands off" approach, specifically noting that it's Mangini's in depth involvement and Lerner's vote of confidence in Mangini that's having the effect.

 

The silence from Lerner is deafening. But seeing as Lerner still hasn't asserted himself if may be that he and Mangnini may have a hand picked candidate who will be willing to accept the fact that Mangini remains in charge already. Maybe that's Kosar, who himself has no prior GM or front office opinion.

 

I don't know how good or bad Kosar would do but I do think this team, and this fan base, need someone with proven experience and credibility... the exact opposite of what the current coach/GM have given them.

 

Sometimes one can say more by remaining silent - and that's what Lerner's doing here, even though he now knows that it's keeping candidates away.

[ballpeen]

All Lerner has to say to the new guy is it is your decision.

 

He doesn't need to refute Mangini.

 

Here is how it will work.

 

1. Lerner hires a Czar/President

 

2. The Czar consults with Mangini when he hires a GM.

 

That's it...Mangini gives his opinion.

 

 

How much weight it is given only time will tell, but trust me, whoever comes in isn't going to be behind the coach in the power structure.

 

Mangini should have input. He is the head coach.

 

Put your personal dislike and bias aside for a few moments and think about it.

 

The odds are good Mangini doesn't survive....but...

 

I don't think Mangini is void of coaching skills or has a bad plan.

 

 

Just be fair and rational.

[professor_g]

Speaking of Mangini not surviving, the following is worth looking at:

 

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/11/0...browns-disarray

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

Speaking of Mangini not surviving, the following is worth looking at:

 

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/11/0...browns-disarray

 

already posted http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8552

 

[kshutchins]

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/..._expects_t.html

You're correct that there is no link where Lerner refuted Mangini's comments that Mangini would be involved in the hiring decisions.

 

By leaving Mangini's statement out there, even after reports that it's keeping GMs away, Lerner's silence is sending a very loud message to all credible GM candidates. I'd expect that silence is why the GM candidates that Lombardi interviewed are taking a "hands off" approach, specifically noting that it's Mangini's in depth involvement and Lerner's vote of confidence in Mangini that's having the effect.

 

The silence from Lerner is deafening.

 

Lerner's not exactly a talkative guy, given to making public statements. I wouldn't be so quick to interpret his silence that strongly. I don't remember hearing anything that I would interpret as giving Mangini a "vote of confidence."

[JoeSixPat]

Randy Lerner is VERY lucky to have such a forgiving fan base.

 

I can think of a pretty long list of cities who would be expecting their owner to speak out to make this very simple and reasonable statement: "It's my decision as the owner who to hire as GM and it's the GM's decision on who to have as the head coach"

 

Look - you think I'm not being objective but I think Cleveland fans need to look at their own objectivity. Even aside from the awful football, awful record, and the fact that not one but two close personal confidants/hand-picked selections of Mangini have been fired in a matter of days would have many fans wondering why Lerner doesn't seem to mind that Manginin continues to assert his position as one of the prime decisoin makers in the next GM sweepstakes.

 

To have his coach assert himself that way, and then to know that GMs are staying away because of it, and just remaining silent is irresponsible and wouldn't be quite as well received and accepted elsewhere.

 

Most fans wouldn't think that was asking too much... I certainly HOPE Lerner would basicly tell them - "hey, regardless of what that guy Mangini's saying, if you say he's gone, he's gone" but if it's keeping GM candidates away I'd think you'd at least leak it to the press that Mangini's gone the moment the GM says so. As I said, the silence is deafening.

 

I'll say this - the fans of Cleveland sure have given the Lerners one long honeymoon.

[ballpeen]

No big time "czar" is going to want to inherit a situation where the first thing he has to do is fire the head coach who has had less than a season to work with........that would a be a lose-lose situation!

 

So the only "czar" who would ever take that position is a guy who is 100% confident that Mangini is "the" guy.

 

I understand, and agree with that point.

 

If the new guy is offered and he accepts and he doesn't want Mangini, the firing of Mangini will take place before he is announced so as you say, his first official action isn't to ax the coach

 

[peterbell]

ITS BULLSHIT..based on zero facts..as usual

[BrownIndian]

What would be foolhardy is for Randy to make a statement and then regret it sometime later and again try to dilly dally around it. What he is doing is keep his dignity and just announce the facts. You think Lerner does not know that Mangini has such a negative image right now in Cleveland ? What can be gained by denouncing Mangini in the public ? It just makes life harder for Mangini and when the head coach loses focus what little chance the team has of winning (we still play KC, Raiders & Lions) will also fade away. Lerner's 2 biggest concerns now are:

 

1. Hiring the right football czar who konws what he is doing.

2. Complete this year with as little negative publicity/Drama as possible.

 

 

So, far he is handling 2 successfully.

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

there have been rumors spreading on the interwebs that Mike Holmgren is in Berea. We're digging to see if there's anything to them.

Per the OBR twitter page http://twitter.com/TheOBR

[JoeSixPat]

I don't think he ever got a honeymoon. We've never cared for him one way or the other. He's the owner. We can't call for his head or hope he gets benched ... it's his team.

 

Do Redskins fans quit being Redskin fans because Dan Snyder is incompetent as a team owner? Do Raider fans quit becoming Raider fans because Al Davis slowly slips from "mad renegade genius" to "crazy old cook"?

 

You're a New England Patriots fan, right? Were you not a fan when the Sullivan Family owned the team? They owned the team for 29 years from 1960 to 1988 and the Patriots won "O" championships and generally were at the lower end of the food chain during that era (while the Browns were an elite franchise). Did the fans "put up with" the Sullivans? Of course they did, they didn't have a choice. Then you had that idiot Victor Kiam. You had to put up with him too, right? Because he owned the team.

 

So are you suggesting we go ahead with the Big Gay Protest? That's effing stupid.

 

We root for competitive games the rest of the year, we root that the defense improves, we root that some of the young guys have the light come on, we root that Mangini's plan starts to take root and results become evident on the field ... and if doesn't work then we call for the coaches head and start over again. And then you can come in here and say "See I told you, Mangini is a fool." We don't care. We'll move on to the next guy and root for him and get excited about his plans. And maybe he'll be the one. Our time will come. We are in dry spell ... 20 years since we were consistently good, 45 years since we won a championship. Just like the Patriots went 30-some years without being consistently good and the Red Sox went like 95 years without a championship. Did you abandon them? Did you hang the owners in effigy? Did you protest outside the stadium, miss kickoff, and then go into to your prepaid seats? Because if you did, you are a numbskull.

 

Zombo

 

I hope the Browns can rebuild themselves to be what the Red Sox were even in their 86 year Championship drought.

 

The vast majority of those years they were competitive. At this rate, it would be a tremendous achievement if the Browns could become credible and competitive in the next 86 years.

 

But yes, the New England fans most definitely did assert themselves. Even though the Patriots had been to the Super Bowl in 85 five years later the team was in such disarray that fans voted with their pocketbooks, and forced the owner to improve the team, or sell it (he did both). Magnini's right - there are comparisons to the Patriots... just the 1-15 1990 team.

 

There were a great many games blacked out because the stadium didn't sell out. That sent a pretty clear message to the owner who then made the full commitment to improving the team by changing the coach, selling the team and firing another coach to bring in Bill Parcells, a proven coach with a proven record of success. He was smart enough to know that the fans would be excited by such a move and would be supportive of the rebuilding.

 

So am I disappointed that Kiam didn't give Rod Rust a chance to put his plan into action? Am I upset that Orthwein didn't give Dick MacPherson a chance to succeed (and that's a guy who was an awsome college coach too) - nope. And you wouldn't have found too many fans who thought Kiam or Orthwein were out of line making a change so quickly.

 

Why would any owner expect fans to be excited about a failed coach who had just been fired? What tolerance was he expecting for a painful rebuilding process? And how much bumbling and fumbling will Lerner and the fans accept until they've said "enough" and do what the Patriots fans did and vote with their feet - which is all they can do.

 

Now I understand season ticket holders have already paid up... so what's it going to hurt if they send a message by showing the owner their displeasure? Not buying hot dogs and beer is a good idea too - but empty seats is very visible, and very embarrassing - just like the blacked out NE Patriots games were for Kiam.

[Earl34]

Zombo, that's a great post.

 

I think that the "JoeSixPat trap" here is to eviscerate Mangini's role in New England for nine seasons, minimize his progress/successes in NY and convince you that he's taken a match to your future.

 

The bottom line is that you see your owner, the fan base and yourself in the proper light. I think you're on to something.

 

Don't worry about Mangini driving away GMs. You want someone who shares Lerner's vision...and if they get to know Mangini and think he deserves another chance....then fine. Anybody who knows football is going to do their due diligence and not take the media's word for it (or JoeSixPat's).

 

I think that JoeSixPat is smart but he's not giving you facts. Bill Belicheck (and his assistant coaches) brought respectability back to Robert Kraft's franchise and now SixPat thinks that makes him the expert. You can't tease out who was responsible for what successes. The bottom line is that Kraft built a proper franchise and Lerner has had his ear in the past (including when he hired Mangini).

[Earl34]

Some people are able to realize that it's colder in winter than in summer without written proof. They make this leap of faith because they have experienced numerous winters and numerous summers and since damn near every winter is colder than damn near every summer. You, on the other hand, may need someone to write a book about it!

 

That's not entirely accurate. It isn't a "leap of faith". If you have experienced winter and summer then you've collected empiric data many times on the same experience by opening the window or stepping outside. To make an assumption about a far more complex process (e.g., the coach driving away GM candidates) than whether or not it is warm in July or cold in January, you would need a lot more data. What you have here is not data. It's hearsay. I'm not saying it would take a lot of measuring to prove or disprove the theory but right now your "n" is not even 1, it's zero.