Another Rebuild

[d531]

I was probably more of a Savage than a Romeo fan. I wasn't extremely excited about either. But the Browns at least resembled an NFL team. Now, their offense is horrid. It resembles the first couple years after expansion.

 

However, as much as we want to trick ourselves into thinking a new regime is going to fix everything, it will be all new faces and all new ideas that take time to flourish.

 

I'm not a fan of Mangini any more than I was the last two. But I hate to think we will have to start over, again.

 

If this Regime goes, be prepared for 3 more years instead of 2.

[next2nothing]

If the regime goes now then it's not like we really lost anything. I was for Mangini when we first hired him, been on the fence after the first 3 games, but it's clear now that he is not HC material in this league. I'd hate to see us stick with a guy for 3 years that ultimately will hurt this franchise more.

[ballpeen]

I was probably more of a Savage than a Romeo fan. I wasn't extremely excited about either. But the Browns at least resembled an NFL team. Now, their offense is horrid. It resembles the first couple years after expansion.

 

However, as much as we want to trick ourselves into thinking a new regime is going to fix everything, it will be all new faces and all new ideas that take time to flourish.

 

I'm not a fan of Mangini any more than I was the last two. But I hate to think we will have to start over, again.

 

If this Regime goes, be prepared for 3 more years instead of 2.

 

I don't know if I see it as starting over. It may be a continuation. Deep down I don't think Mangini is a bad coach.

 

I haven't seen any real game management blunders like we saw with Romeo time after time.

 

The guy isn't stupid and seems to know what he is doing, and I really don't think his plan is bad.

 

I think the guy could use a little guidance...and that is where the Czar and GM come in to play...to help him select the correct people...players and coaching staff, and support him where they can.

 

Eric may need to be trimmed back a bit, but I am not sure he needs his legs lopped off at this point.

 

And hey....if we do start over, at least it is after 1 year rather than waiting 3-4 years as we have done in the past....that's progress IMO.

 

[d531]

And hey....if we do start over, at least it is after 1 year rather than waiting 3-4 years as we have done in the past....that's progress IMO.

 

 

Good Point....I just know I had a blast 2 years ago watching the Browns shock everyone with their offense. This season's offense gives no glimmer of hope whatsoever. I remember being pissed because the Browns couldn't quite win the AFC championship every other year....the good ole days

[ballpeen]

Good Point....I just know I had a blast 2 years ago watching the Browns shock everyone with their offense. This season's offense gives no glimmer of hope whatsoever. I remember being pissed because the Browns couldn't quite win the AFC championship every other year....the good ole days

 

I went to my first Browns game in 1955 at the age of 7....so my good ole' days are different than yours....but I know what you are saying.

 

[Earl34]

How soon we forget that the offensive woes go back to last season. These QBs stink. These RBs are not very good. The OL outside of Thomas is over-rated.

 

I think that Mangini CAN coach. My brother is a Jets season ticket holder and I've seen a ton of what he can do. I think that at halftime last night most of you guys probably were pleased with the fact that we could hang with the Ratbirds.

 

He's beaten much better teams in his time in NY.

[Gips]

I was also for mangini until about game 5 when it became apparent to me that he is extremely minor league in his approach and totally out of his league in trying to fix or rebuild a broken team...he is both an arrogant smartass and a liar who has repeatedly insulted intelligent fans with his lies and garbage spews at press conferences...not to mention his little minded QB headgames to a fanbase that is fed up to the brow with both controversy and secrecy...we just want a good steward not a snake charming bullshit machine that doesnt deliver on the field and then tries to crawl out of any responsibility by blaming everyone else...

 

THE FACTS:

We can win games with the talent we have...but daballess and manweenie are forcing an offensive scheme and vanilla playbook that does not in any way fit our current players strengths and talents...its predictable and defenses box our QBs and RBs in and still fill the passing lanes and seams with ease..

 

Daboll is not a gifted OC type he should be a defensive line coach perhaps some day a DC..

 

Mangini's team philosophies are more about saving his own ass...everyone shares the blame except him...

 

The "process" is more snake charmer hogwash aimed at the less intellectual fans (which he seems to think we all are)and insulting to the rest of us...we can win now simply by changing OCs and"the bogus process"...

 

Daboll should have been fired by now but mangini's personal friendship is more important than winning or building a solid foundation to build on...Mangini has permanently lost the trust of a huge part of the fanbase and can expect very little support and lots of rejoicing when the new czar comes a calling...

 

Mangini constantly has the nfl and players union breathing down his neck...i guess its just to harass the poor guy?...no its because he is a snake that cleverly slithers around rules and ethics and many want his dishonest unethical ass to be caught and exposed...

 

He is stubborn and wont try anything creative outside of dabolls tiny little playbook or use plays that might actually require him and daboll to trust the players because that would spark the offense...

 

Overall he is the worst coach this club has ever had..he lacks the smarts to overcome his own shortcomings and failed philosophical shit and can never be better than slightly below mediocre as a HC in the nfl..he aint bill bellichick folks not in his wildest dreams..not that i like billyboy so much either..

[ballpeen]

I was also for mangini until about game 5 when it became apparent to me that he is extremely minor league in his approach and totally out of his league in trying to fix or rebuild a broken team...he is both an arrogant smartass and a liar who has repeatedly insulted intelligent fans with his lies and garbage spews at press conferences...not to mention his little minded QB headgames to a fanbase that is fed up to the brow with both controversy and secrecy...we just want a good steward not a snake charming bullshit machine that doesnt deliver on the field and then tries to crawl out of any responsibility by blaming everyone else...

 

THE FACTS:

We can win games with the talent we have...but daballess and manweenie are forcing an offensive scheme and vanilla playbook that does not in any way fit our current players strengths and talents...its predictable and defenses box our QBs and RBs in and still fill the passing lanes and seams with ease..

 

Daboll is not a gifted OC type he should be a defensive line coach perhaps some day a DC..

 

Mangini's team philosophies are more about saving his own ass...everyone shares the blame except him...

 

The "process" is more snake charmer hogwash aimed at the less intellectual fans and insulting to the rest of us...we can win now simply by changing "the bogus process"...

 

Daboll should have been fired by now but mangini's personal friendship is more important than winning or building a solid foundation to build on...Mangini has permanently lost the trust of a huge part of the fanbase and can expect very little support and lots of rejoicing when the new czar comes a calling...

 

Mangini constantly has the nfl and players union breathing down his neck...i guess its just to harass the poor guy?...no its because he is a snake that cleverly slithers around rules and ethics and many want his dishonest unethical ass to be caught and exposed...

 

He is stubborn and wont try anything creative outside of dabolls tiny little playbook that would spark the offense...

 

Overall he is the worst coach this club has ever had..he lacks the smarts to overcome his own shortcomings and failed philosophical shit and can never be better than slightly below mediocre as a HC in the nfl..he aint bill bellichick folks not in his wildest dreams..not that i like billyboy so much either..

 

 

Dude, I agree with you, Daboll is inadequate, but at this point you don't make a switch.....it isn't the play calling, it is the system...you don't change that in 5-6 games....at this point we might as well lose....that actually helps us in a perverse sort of way.

 

[Flugel]

I was probably more of a Savage than a Romeo fan. I wasn't extremely excited about either. But the Browns at least resembled an NFL team. Now, their offense is horrid. It resembles the first couple years after expansion.

 

However, as much as we want to trick ourselves into thinking a new regime is going to fix everything, it will be all new faces and all new ideas that take time to flourish.

 

I'm not a fan of Mangini any more than I was the last two. But I hate to think we will have to start over, again.

 

If this Regime goes, be prepared for 3 more years instead of 2.

 

If one isn't prepared they need an MRI taken of their cranium to prove there's a brain inside. I'll start with this - I couldn't give a crap if Mangini stays or sprays. I'm so sick of reading all the negativity about the guy.

 

Lerner's decision to look to Phil Savage has turned this team into the worst offensive team I've ever seen since I started breathing in 1964. Ever - period! The defense isn't bad to watch as long as they have a reason to play hard, which rarely lasts and they get tired from the lack of time of possession from our offense. Yuck!

 

Savage's ideas of Stallworth, Edwards, Fisk, Washington, Peek, Dilfer, DA, Quinn, Shaffer, Andruzzi, Corey Williams as well as his no day 1 drafts in a slim 2008 draft (5 picks deep) and leaving us only 4 draft picks for the 2009 draft has me infuriorated. How many dlinemen or olinemen have panned out from mid to late rounds in the draft besides one 3rd overall pick in the draft? Just an FYI for ANYONE bellyaching about Winslow's absence: the main reason Winslow wanted OUT of Cleveland is because of his experiences with Phil Savage. I hear all this bullshit about Wonderlics and Indy combine interviews and personal workouts and Savage decides Braylon Edwards is the "safest" pick at #3 overall. When he wasn't injured or bellyaching - he was dropping way too many catchable passes except the dream season of 2007 (and the miracle produced vrs the NY Giants 1 year later). Other than that, the media can't WAIT to see him take the Jets to places he couldn't ever get Michigan and us to. Good luck with that NY! They've lost 4 of 5 since he arrived after starting out 3-1 in his absence.

 

Think of Savage's absurd plan which included everything from starting us off with Trent Doofus as the starting QB with Charlie Frye on deck and DA in the hole was atrocious. Now add in we traded away 3 years of bullshit for a 1st round QB that can't even complete 1 pass over 10 yards. Most of those he couldn't even keep in bounds. Did anyone HEAR the announcers last night, which included 2 former QBs (1 was a former NFL OC and Head Coach)?

 

I honestly went into last night knowing we didn't have 1 receiver or TE that could do any damage to Baltimore's Defense. I also knew their D welcomed the slow and tired legs of Jamal. Okay, he had his 1 or 2 hard runs which met his weekly quota. I seriously hoped Rogers could cause a returnable fumble or Cribbs could score on a return. Instead, I got to watch the guy with the biggest heart on the team get carried off the field on a stretcher.

 

The LERNER family, not to be confused with 1 convenient scapegoat like an OC or Coach, has done the MOST damage. This might be the first franchise that got worse than they were as an expansion team. Perhaps that wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't 10 years after the expansion season. Randy Lerner has KILLED every single rivalry we had and he's slowly sending the message "don't waste your time on this franchise" any more. Then again, if you enjoy getting kicked in the Adam's apple with steel toes week after week so you can tell people your a GOOD fan - God bless ya!

 

I honestly don't see enough decent talent to give ANY coaches an honest assessment. STs always seem good and we had Cribbs, Pontbriand and Zastudil - which was where we are most talented. We were the least penalized team at week 8 so that might have shown some degree of promise. That said, if you were in charge of playing chess with our offense - WHAT/WHOM do you attack the opponent with?

 

I've always wanted it to be as easy as firing the WRONG guy at Head Coach and hiring the RIGHT guy to replace him. What happens when the guy responsible for such an important decision doesn't have the first clue as to what consitutes a GOOD or BAD hire? I'm at the point of thinking this team remains buried until Lerner sells it. I've finally seen enough!

- Tom F.

[DawgTracker]

This team can be much different next year. Replace the biggest holes in free agency and a good draft.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

All this blame on Mangini is getting to be tiresome. Like Earl said, last night, most of you were probably pretty pleased that we were in a deadlock with the Ravens at the half. But now that we lost once again, let's throw a shit-fit and have his head. Listen folks, It's not all his fault. Our offense is terrible. Mangini pulled BQ after the Ravens game because of the contract escalators, it should be pretty apparent by now. And that was a smart decision. Sure, DA was terrible, but Mangini kept him in just as long as was needed to save 11 million dollars for next year. Trading K2 and Braylon was another smart decision. What have they done for their respective teams? Tampa Bay is just as terrible as we are, K2 isn't turning them around all by himself. And New York has gone on a losing streak since Edwards joined them. What did we get in the trade? Four draft picks and two players. Trusnik will be a starting OLB for the rest of the year and maybe next year, and Stuckey provides some depth at WR. Six players for two?That's another smart decision. Neither K2 or Edwards would have turned us around, and their trade value would have been depleted by now. Oh, practice is too long, according to Jamal Lewis? Gee, I would love to have practice for only 2 hours a day, with a 30 minute walkthrough. In high school, we practiced for 3 at the minimum, and in college, it's the same thing. The only mistake Mangini has made thus far is bringing Daboll. This guy's system obviously doesn't mesh with our players, his offensive system may be better suited for San Fran. Jesus, people, stop trying to call for our coach's head after half of a season. Stop being so damn....well.....Clevelandish.

 

By the way, these stupid nicknames for Mangini and Daboll are childish and Retarded. They're not even clever.

[FloridaBrownsFan]

^I agree. I don't think we can place the bulk of this blame solely on coaching. While yes, Daboll's playcalling hasn't been the best. But perhaps the reasons he's making these calls are for BQ. Quinn is still obviously not comfortable running our offense so we wanna keep his playcalling simple to get him to feel more comfortable. Another big thing you can't overlook is our lack of a true play maker. Right now our kick returner holds that honor, and thats how u know were really thin. BQ is not gonna feel comfortable moving the chains if the guys he's throwing to aren't making the catches or giving him time to make plays. I heard various times last night in the broadcast how they felt Peyton Manning nor Tom Brady couldn't run this offense. I do think that Daboll should start mixing up the playcalling and have some fun with it. I mean what do we have to lose? Just tell Brady to go out there and be fearless of making a mistake because I think our offense has officially hit rock bottom

[Bob806]

Dude, I agree with you, Daboll is inadequate, but at this point you don't make a switch.....it isn't the play calling, it is the system...you don't change that in 5-6 games....at this point we might as well lose....that actually helps us in a perverse sort of way.

 

I hate the losing, but the WAY we are losing is extremely intolerable. As fans, we're paying major league prices for a minor league product, it totally blows.

 

It looks like we're headed for the top pick of the draft, certainly a top 3 pick. With that being said, we can't blow the draft again.

 

Our offense looks hopeless, with no playmakers, and our two starting cornerbacks aren't interested in tackling.

 

I know you've been a fan longer than I (1970 for me), but even the bad Browns teams of 1974-75 were able to compete. This reminds me of 1990, or 2000...absolutely no hope of winning, unless the opponent turns it over a bunch.

 

I'll never stop being a fan, but my faith in this organization is at an all-time low. We have to have the worst winning percentage of all-time at home games for a 10 year span in NFL history. Dismal, dismal, dismal

 

[Flugel]

^I agree. I don't think we can place the bulk of this blame solely on coaching. While yes, Daboll's playcalling hasn't been the best. But perhaps the reasons he's making these calls are for BQ.

 

Some good points made FloridaFan!

 

When you're playing chess and attacking exclusively with pawns - what play CAN you call?

 

A QB's best friend is always the TE when things aren't going well. Our TE is Robert Royal which means there's no happily ever after in this story.

 

As for the WRs, Furrey has been an epic disappointment. Brian Robiskie hasn't even been as visible as Darren Chiaverinni once was as a wide eyed rookie. And if we're being honest with ourselves, MoMass was a #2 WR to a freshman named Green at Georgia so I'm hoping he eventually becomes a solid #2 here which would require a legit #1. I don't care WHAT Ron Jaworski says about Braylon Edwards because he only watched edited versions of Braylon that didn't include all the important drops Jets fans will get to know too well.

 

To make matters worse, our Qbs aren't exactly role models for accuracy. Aside from that, we don't have a RB that can score from anywhere on the field nor do we have many rushing TDs to speak of as a whole. I've never seen it this bad so I actually feel bad for whoever has the burden of playing Houdini with the playcalling. There's your definition of scapegoat.

 

I'll end on a positive: I've seen Joe Thomas completely shutout the following studs this year: Jared Allen, Antwaan odoms, Aaron Schobel, and James Harrison. I guess Peter King got that news somewhere as well but he didn't watch every ounce of it like WE did.

- Tom F.

[daydawg19]

I don't know if I see it as starting over. It may be a continuation. Deep down I don't think Mangini is a bad coach.

 

I haven't seen any real game management blunders like we saw with Romeo time after time.

 

The guy isn't stupid and seems to know what he is doing, and I really don't think his plan is bad.

 

I think the guy could use a little guidance...and that is where the Czar and GM come in to play...to help him select the correct people...players and coaching staff, and support him where they can.

 

Eric may need to be trimmed back a bit, but I am not sure he needs his legs lopped off at this point.

 

And hey....if we do start over, at least it is after 1 year rather than waiting 3-4 years as we have done in the past....that's progress IMO.

 

 

What about the busts he brought in from the Jets and free agency that are starters here but probably would not be on any other team???

[Flugel]

What about the busts he brought in from the Jets and free agency that are starters here but probably would not be on any other team???

 

So how much better are the Jets doing this year since they upgraded all these guys you speak of? Sounds like they're heading for at least 10-6. What's their record right now? They miss these guys more than you think.

 

Bowens is pretty freakin good and I like #93 quite a bit. Elam, Barton and Bowens were productive players on a D that experienced 9 wins while Mosely proved to be a decent rotation guy. And since Braylon arrived there - a 3-1 record fermented into them winning 1 of their next 4 games. Stuckey had the dropsies with us: BUT it seemed like he caught a few TD passes and key 3rd down catches from Favre last year. Keep in mind, we're getting 2 draft picks as well for Braylon while trading down helped us double our draft volume from 4 picks to 8. We needed more than 4 picks in 09 just like we needed more than 5 picks (without a day 1) in 08.

- Tom F. (The mistakes didn't begin in 2009 folks - we're just witnessing the enormous sum of YEARS of mistakes in 2009. I almost miss body by Philcox and that ain't good!)

[Flugel]

What about the busts he brought in from the Jets and free agency that are starters here but probably would not be on any other team???

 

So how much better are the Jets doing this year since they upgraded all these guys you speak of? Sounds like they're heading for at least 10-6. What's their record right now? They miss these guys more than you think.

 

Bowens is pretty freakin good and I like #93 quite a bit. Elam, Barton and Bowens were productive players on a D that experienced 9 wins while Mosely proved to be a decent rotation guy. And since Braylon arrived there - a 3-1 record fermented into them winning 1 of their next 4 games. Stuckey had the dropsies with us: BUT it seemed like he caught a few TD passes and key 3rd down catches from Favre last year. Keep in mind, we're getting 2 draft picks as well for Braylon while trading down helped us double our draft volume from 4 picks to 8. We needed more than 4 picks in 09 just like we needed more than 5 picks (without a day 1) in 08.

- Tom F. (The mistakes didn't begin in 2009 folks - we're just witnessing the enormous sum of YEARS of mistakes in 2009. I almost miss body by Philcox and that ain't good!)

[daydawg19]

So how much better are the Jets doing this year since they upgraded all these guys you speak of? Sounds like they're heading for at least 10-6. What's their record right now? They miss these guys more than you think.

 

Bowens is pretty freakin good and I like #93 quite a bit. Elam, Barton and Bowens were productive players on a D that experienced 9 wins while Mosely proved to be a decent rotation guy. And since Braylon arrived there - a 3-1 record fermented into them winning 1 of their next 4 games. Stuckey had the dropsies with us: BUT it seemed like he caught a few TD passes and key 3rd down catches from Favre last year. Keep in mind, we're getting 2 draft picks as well for Braylon while trading down helped us double our draft volume from 4 picks to 8. We needed more than 4 picks in 09 just like we needed more than 5 picks (without a day 1) in 08.

- Tom F. (The mistakes didn't begin in 2009 folks - we're just witnessing the enormous sum of YEARS of mistakes in 2009. I almost miss body by Philcox and that ain't good!)

 

 

I was speaking of the players that you did not mention, i.e. St.Clair and others. (Had a few Dewar's can't remember everyone).

[ballpeen]

What about the busts he brought in from the Jets and free agency that are starters here but probably would not be on any other team???

 

 

What about it?? It's not like there were all-pro's sitting on the streets he could have picked up.

 

I fully understand why we wanted some of his former players on the sideline...it isn't hard to figure out. Comfort level is one part, and who did we replace with these players...even bigger bums.

 

Quit acting like Mangini could have brought in all stars yet opted for mid level guys.

[Solon16]

I went to my first Browns game in 1955 at the age of 7....so my good ole' days are different than yours....but I know what you are saying.

 

you have REAL good ol' days.... I have red right 88', the drive and the fumble......

[Solon16]

If one isn't prepared they need an MRI taken of their cranium to prove there's a brain inside. I'll start with this - I couldn't give a crap if Mangini stays or sprays. I'm so sick of reading all the negativity about the guy.

 

Lerner's decision to look to Phil Savage has turned this team into the worst offensive team I've ever seen since I started breathing in 1964. Ever - period! The defense isn't bad to watch as long as they have a reason to play hard, which rarely lasts and they get tired from the lack of time of possession from our offense. Yuck!

 

Savage's ideas of Stallworth, Edwards, Fisk, Washington, Peek, Dilfer, DA, Quinn, Shaffer, Andruzzi, Corey Williams as well as his no day 1 drafts in a slim 2008 draft (5 picks deep) and leaving us only 4 draft picks for the 2009 draft has me infuriorated. How many dlinemen or olinemen have panned out from mid to late rounds in the draft besides one 3rd overall pick in the draft? Just an FYI for ANYONE bellyaching about Winslow's absence: the main reason Winslow wanted OUT of Cleveland is because of his experiences with Phil Savage. I hear all this bullshit about Wonderlics and Indy combine interviews and personal workouts and Savage decides Braylon Edwards is the "safest" pick at #3 overall. When he wasn't injured or bellyaching - he was dropping way too many catchable passes except the dream season of 2007 (and the miracle produced vrs the NY Giants 1 year later). Other than that, the media can't WAIT to see him take the Jets to places he couldn't ever get Michigan and us to. Good luck with that NY! They've lost 4 of 5 since he arrived after starting out 3-1 in his absence.

 

Think of Savage's absurd plan which included everything from starting us off with Trent Doofus as the starting QB with Charlie Frye on deck and DA in the hole was atrocious. Now add in we traded away 3 years of bullshit for a 1st round QB that can't even complete 1 pass over 10 yards. Most of those he couldn't even keep in bounds. Did anyone HEAR the announcers last night, which included 2 former QBs (1 was a former NFL OC and Head Coach)?

 

I honestly went into last night knowing we didn't have 1 receiver or TE that could do any damage to Baltimore's Defense. I also knew their D welcomed the slow and tired legs of Jamal. Okay, he had his 1 or 2 hard runs which met his weekly quota. I seriously hoped Rogers could cause a returnable fumble or Cribbs could score on a return. Instead, I got to watch the guy with the biggest heart on the team get carried off the field on a stretcher.

 

The LERNER family, not to be confused with 1 convenient scapegoat like an OC or Coach, has done the MOST damage. This might be the first franchise that got worse than they were as an expansion team. Perhaps that wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't 10 years after the expansion season. Randy Lerner has KILLED every single rivalry we had and he's slowly sending the message "don't waste your time on this franchise" any more. Then again, if you enjoy getting kicked in the Adam's apple with steel toes week after week so you can tell people your a GOOD fan - God bless ya!

 

I honestly don't see enough decent talent to give ANY coaches an honest assessment. STs always seem good and we had Cribbs, Pontbriand and Zastudil - which was where we are most talented. We were the least penalized team at week 8 so that might have shown some degree of promise. That said, if you were in charge of playing chess with our offense - WHAT/WHOM do you attack the opponent with?

 

I've always wanted it to be as easy as firing the WRONG guy at Head Coach and hiring the RIGHT guy to replace him. What happens when the guy responsible for such an important decision doesn't have the first clue as to what consitutes a GOOD or BAD hire? I'm at the point of thinking this team remains buried until Lerner sells it. I've finally seen enough!

- Tom F.

 

1).You make alot of good points flugs....I like lerner as an owner...he coughs up the BIG bucks for everything (as opposed to the bidwell's of the past) , he isn't a freaking meddler like JJ and snyder, He wants to win and I believe that he has tried very hard to bring a winner(still paying savage,crennel and kokinis)(i think butch davis just got off the payroll this year)... Has paid Big money to Free agents to come hear(thanks phil),....that to me is a good owner....NOW as a decision maker???? Hmmm obviously weak and easily swayed....He won't give up tho and I like That! (i have no problem with lerner as an Owner)

 

2). A good coach structures his Scheme around his Team...not vice~versa...my second biggest concern about mangini. You adapt your offense and defense around the strentghs of your players and try to minimize their weakness'...It has to be collaborative and flexible and fluid, to me that's what a good coach does....I see the opposite with EM...Rigidly trying to fit players to his Scheme both on offense and defense.

 

3). This guy takes the fun out of football...in the end, the best players who give the greatest effort, who play football because they Love it with a passion, look forward to going to "work", Love the team concept, love the sacrifice for the team, strive to get better and play so as to not let down the coach/team, willing to run thru walls for the TEAM etc... I don't see Mangini inspiring ANY players. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see it

 

4). my biggest problem is(and I don't know if it was KOk or not) the draft talent we passed up on on draft day and the guys we eventually got, the evaluation of (loads of talent) brought in to make us "better"RT,RG,Lb's Safety"(folks we were 4-12 last year!)(now worst team in all of football) and the handling(mismanagement) of current team (qb mess,league leader in grievances against) The whole "philosophy" of Taking a center Instead of say, Beanie Wells, Percy Harvin, Jeremy Machlin,michael oher,(insert your choice here). The second round"debachle" So far...(holy fk). I have lost complete trust in this guy as an evaluator of talent and that is the exact reason the Browns have continued to massively suck for the last ten years of FKN HORRIBLE drafting....I can't go along with more of the same....

 

Now I can stomach another year of Mangini as coach.....IF... he has little authority in the draft and free agency other than "i need this position, I need depth at this position" and IF he cans Daboll.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[Earl34]

1).You make alot of good points flugs....I like lerner as an owner...he coughs up the BIG bucks for everything (as opposed to the bidwell's of the past) , he isn't a freaking meddler like JJ and snyder, He wants to win and I believe that he has tried very hard to bring a winner(still paying savage,crennel and kokinis)(i think butch davis just got off the payroll this year)... Has paid Big money to Free agents to come hear(thanks phil),....that to me is a good owner....NOW as a decision maker???? Hmmm obviously weak and easily swayed....He won't give up tho and I like That! (i have no problem with lerner as an Owner)

 

2). A good coach structures his Scheme around his Team...not vice~versa...my second biggest concern about mangini. You adapt your offense and defense around the strentghs of your players and try to minimize their weakness'...It has to be collaborative and flexible and fluid, to me that's what a good coach does....I see the opposite with EM...Rigidly trying to fit players to his Scheme both on offense and defense.

 

3). This guy takes the fun out of football...in the end, the best players who give the greatest effort, who play football because they Love it with a passion, look forward to going to "work", Love the team concept, love the sacrifice for the team, strive to get better and play so as to not let down the coach/team, willing to run thru walls for the TEAM etc... I don't see Mangini inspiring ANY players. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see it

 

4). my biggest problem is(and I don't know if it was KOk or not) the draft talent we passed up on on draft day and the guys we eventually got, the evaluation of (loads of talent) brought in to make us "better"RT,RG,Lb's Safety"(folks we were 4-12 last year!)(now worst team in all of football) and the handling(mismanagement) of current team (qb mess,league leader in grievances against) The whole "philosophy" of Taking a center Instead of say, Beanie Wells, Percy Harvin, Jeremy Machlin,michael oher,(insert your choice here). The second round"debachle" So far...(holy fk). I have lost complete trust in this guy as an evaluator of talent and that is the exact reason the Browns have continued to massively suck for the last ten years of FKN HORRIBLE drafting....I can't go along with more of the same....

 

Now I can stomach another year of Mangini as coach.....IF... he has little authority in the draft and free agency other than "i need this position, I need depth at this position" and IF he cans Daboll.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

I don't see how his "scheme" isn't structured around what he has. On defense, these players can play his 3-4. On offense, they want to run first. They can't commit to vertical or west coast passing because NEITHER friqqin QB is very good. What stellar personnel does he have to mold an offense around Solon? Come on man...you're much smarter than that statement. Now if he was ripping up the team to play a 4-3 or trying to run the spread option...I'd say fine, but he isn't. He's the one who's moved Shaun Rogers and Wimbley around when RAC tried to pigeon hole them.

 

I don't worry about draft talent. I think that with four picks going in, they needed to generate more than just four bodies. You can disagree if you like but a center was a good start because of the division we play in. If you can't block Ngata or Hampton you aren't going to get a lot of plays off. I trust in the talent evaluation. There is no reason at this point not to. Most of his cuts are not NFL worthy (meaning 31 other clubs agree) and his track record at the Jets is exceptional.

 

One thing I will point out since I was amazed by it was convincing Kris Jenkins to accept a trade from Carolina last year. I thought, "No way a malcontent like that is going to play for EM." Not only did he have a Pro Bowl year, but he was quoted on EM's firing as saying:

 

"I think [the Browns would be] getting a great man, a great individual. I think he's a young coach who's growing and learning every day. I think as he keeps progressing, he's going to get better. I guess to Eric, we've had plenty of discussions and man-to-man I think he's one of the best men that I've met in my time on Earth. He's really a great guy. I wish him all the best."

I don't think that Mangini "loses the locker room" as much as when teams are losing....marginal players whine, complain and sometimes mail it in.

[Flugel]

1).You make alot of good points flugs....I like lerner as an owner...he coughs up the BIG bucks for everything (as opposed to the bidwell's of the past) , he isn't a freaking meddler like JJ and snyder, He wants to win and I believe that he has tried very hard to bring a winner(still paying savage,crennel and kokinis)(i think butch davis just got off the payroll this year)... Has paid Big money to Free agents to come hear(thanks phil),....that to me is a good owner....NOW as a decision maker???? Hmmm obviously weak and easily swayed....He won't give up tho and I like That! (i have no problem with lerner as an Owner)

 

2). A good coach structures his Scheme around his Team...not vice~versa...my second biggest concern about mangini. You adapt your offense and defense around the strentghs of your players and try to minimize their weakness'...It has to be collaborative and flexible and fluid, to me that's what a good coach does....I see the opposite with EM...Rigidly trying to fit players to his Scheme both on offense and defense.

 

3). This guy takes the fun out of football...in the end, the best players who give the greatest effort, who play football because they Love it with a passion, look forward to going to "work", Love the team concept, love the sacrifice for the team, strive to get better and play so as to not let down the coach/team, willing to run thru walls for the TEAM etc... I don't see Mangini inspiring ANY players. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see it

 

4). my biggest problem is(and I don't know if it was KOk or not) the draft talent we passed up on on draft day and the guys we eventually got, the evaluation of (loads of talent) brought in to make us "better"RT,RG,Lb's Safety"(folks we were 4-12 last year!)(now worst team in all of football) and the handling(mismanagement) of current team (qb mess,league leader in grievances against) The whole "philosophy" of Taking a center Instead of say, Beanie Wells, Percy Harvin, Jeremy Machlin,michael oher,(insert your choice here). The second round"debachle" So far...(holy fk). I have lost complete trust in this guy as an evaluator of talent and that is the exact reason the Browns have continued to massively suck for the last ten years of FKN HORRIBLE drafting....I can't go along with more of the same....

 

Now I can stomach another year of Mangini as coach.....IF... he has little authority in the draft and free agency other than "i need this position, I need depth at this position" and IF he cans Daboll.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

Thanks Solon! A few things to comment on:

ALL COACHES want to bring in their OWN guys because these become the guys that WANT to play for them. For instance ALL the former Jets were happy to come here and #96 was playing about as good of inside LBer as I have seen in recent years here last Monday Night. I'm talking about plays being made at or behind the line of scrimmage for a refreshing change. While I'm at it, Kaluka Maiava played pretty lights out as well. He shows me better first step instinct than D'Qwell Jackson mainly in where he's makign his tackles. Outside of Joe Thomas, Josh Cribbs, and Shaun Rogers in 08 - we struggled to find enough guys playing hard. Hence the change in Head Coaches and Savage firing. Anytime a corporate buzzsaw comes to the office to trim fat - you're gonna find the half steppers and tiny dancers whining and complaining about the new work environment right? I'm not surprised Jamal is complaining about the length of a 2.5 hour work day; but our defense suddenly knows how to tackle better right?

 

When BB was here this team HATED him except for HIS guys and draftees named Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson, Orlando Brown, Eric Turner, and Vinnie. BB didn't draft Leroy Hoard per say but he gave him a chance others before BB didn't and it ended up a Pro Bowl honor.

 

I see SO MANY similarities to when BB was here that first year. When Vinny got hurt - our Qb was Todd Philcox and the Cleveland Browns provided the football follies the rest of the league appreciated. We got the same caliber QBs today but our receivers and TEs are the worst I've ever seen. You can't win if you can't score. There isn't 1 playmaker on our offense and that's the pathetic truth which has zero to do with convenience.

 

As for the owner, yes, he's willing to open his wallet; BUT he's chosen to not to be a GOOD consumer. Kevin Shaffer was so grossly overpaid, Joe Andruzzi couldn't pass a physical anywhere but Cleveland, Antwaan Peek has battled injuries since the day he joined the NFL, Donte Stallworth has played for about 5 different that were excited to sign him but even happier when he left. When you're an owner and you tell the media you have no idea what has been happening with your franchise Qb situation/dilemma in the 3rd year Quinn is here - you suck as a business owner. If you hate Mangini who do you credit for hiring within 20 minutes of his firing? That comes after not liking RAC right? And who hired Ozzie's favorite secretary and latte boy? Lerner. BAD decisions that don't seem to have much research behind them. I'd rather see him INTERESTED in what he owns but he's never shown me the willingness to put the time in to be successful at winning. He's making an enormous profit off a tradition he had nothing to do with.

 

Anywhere this team is talented enough to compete - it does. For example, STs led by Cribbs and Zastudil and Pontbriand pinned Buffalo inside their 5 yard line seeingly every time we punted that game which led to conservative play calling on their end.

 

Joe Thomas has shut out the following studs: Jared Allen, Aaron Schobel, Antwaan Odom (led AFC in sack before achilles ouchies), and Growth Hormone Harrison of Pittsburgh. Shaun Rogers took over the Bengals game against a much better football team and willed us into OT while Jerome Harrison chipped in 130 yards rushing that day. I honestly believe our oline COULD run block IF we had a passing game capable of throwing passes deeper than 5 yards with any degree of accuracy. Since we CANNOT - teams jam 11 in the box with no fear of getting burned deep for doign so. We were the least penalized team a week or 2 ago so there's SOME degree of coaching noticable on the guys that belong in this league.

 

If that's not enough, Mangini had the Jets winning 10 games in his first year there replacing disappointment. The year Pennington got hurt they won about 5 games and then they won 9 games and looked good as long as Favre's arm was healthy. Point IS I see a track record. Not only that, but the Jets don't look like they are on their way to 9 wins this year so maybe he didn't do such a bad job in NY afterall. I blame quite a bit of our suckiness on Savage: Dilfer, Frye, Dumb Ass were strikes 1 through 3 right? Andruzzi, Peek, Stewart, Shaffer, Corey Williams, Washington, Fisk and not a single draft pick after round 1 starting on either line of ours. Furthermore, no day 1 draft picks in 08 and only 5 total which lead up to only having 4 draft picks to our name heading into April of 09 right? Savage KILLED us.

 

At this point Solon, I don't really care what happens to Mangini. I'm just not gung ho or confident in how the Lerner family hires Head Coaches here.

- Tom F.

[Solon16]

I don't see how his "scheme" isn't structured around what he has. On defense, these players can play his 3-4. On offense, they want to run first. They can't commit to vertical or west coast passing because NEITHER friqqin QB is very good. What stellar personnel does he have to mold an offense around Solon? Come on man...you're much smarter than that statement. Now if he was ripping up the team to play a 4-3 or trying to run the spread option...I'd say fine, but he isn't. He's the one who's moved Shaun Rogers and Wimbley around when RAC tried to pigeon hole them.

 

I don't worry about draft talent. I think that with four picks going in, they needed to generate more than just four bodies. You can disagree if you like but a center was a good start because of the division we play in. If you can't block Ngata or Hampton you aren't going to get a lot of plays off. I trust in the talent evaluation. There is no reason at this point not to. Most of his cuts are not NFL worthy (meaning 31 other clubs agree) and his track record at the Jets is exceptional.

 

One thing I will point out since I was amazed by it was convincing Kris Jenkins to accept a trade from Carolina last year. I thought, "No way a malcontent like that is going to play for EM." Not only did he have a Pro Bowl year, but he was quoted on EM's firing as saying:

 

I don't think that Mangini "loses the locker room" as much as when teams are losing....marginal players whine, complain and sometimes mail it in.

 

i think I worded that wrong(scheme) didn't mean scheme as in 3-4 verses 4-3 or whatever. but if the players he has can't perform in the system well you have to tweak the system to hide the flaws...that's what good coaches do. as far as first round centers...baltimore and Pitt have 6th rounders in our division and cincy has an udfa...so saying we needed a Center in the first round to block other guys in our division is well ....not my opinion. we sit here as i said on draft day with no running back and no future running back, only perpetual fan optimism about potential. we take a center when wells,harvin(again insert offensive play maker here) were still available....I said go get ricky williams before he went to canada, Benson when he was let go and wells before the draft....all i got was pooped on...we also could have gotten a rb in the second round...shonn green, or McCoy would look pretty good compared to Veikune right now IMO... I said so before,during and after the draft. Perpetual bad judgement on talent is why we suck not by any particular coach.

But DABOLL SUCKS ASS

 

[Earl34]

i think I worded that wrong(scheme) didn't mean scheme as in 3-4 verses 4-3 or whatever. but if the players he has can't perform in the system well you have to tweak the system to hide the flaws...that's what good coaches do. as far as first round centers...baltimore and Pitt have 6th rounders in our division and cincy has an udfa...so saying we needed a Center in the first round to block other guys in our division is well ....not my opinion. we sit here as i said on draft day with no running back and no future running back, only perpetual fan optimism about potential. we take a center when wells,harvin(again insert offensive play maker here) were still available....I said go get ricky williams before he went to canada, Benson when he was let go and wells before the draft....all i got was pooped on...we also could have gotten a rb in the second round...shonn green, or McCoy would look pretty good compared to Veikune right now IMO... I said so before,during and after the draft. Perpetual bad judgement on talent is why we suck not by any particular coach.

But DABOLL SUCKS ASS

 

"Perpetual" bad judgment. That's certainly going to kill a franchise.

 

I think that tweaking the system to hide the flaws is what they've tried to do with Quinn. They're trying to give him throws he can make....and he's not done so well. On the deep balls that he threw at the end of Monday night's game, they were so atrocious....now I know why we're trying to dink and dunk with him. When I watch BQ, I see a guy who's very anxious to check down. It seems apparent to me. He's like Jason Campbell that way. For other positions, I'm not sure about tweaking the system. WRs can either run routes or they can't. IF they can't get on the same page as the QB it's going to be hard to keep them in the game.

 

Ultimately, players (Brady Quinn, Robiskie, Tom Brady, Kevin Faulk) need to execute. If they execute, all is well. If they don't, the talking heads don't stop beating the issue to death.

[Solon16]

I don't buy the quinn argument...hiding his flaws would be to roll him out and have multiple crossing patterns...not sit him in the pocket and watch him become a deer in headlights. roll him out and throw downfield will atleast back the defense up and not having them stack the box with 11 because they know a three step drop is coming every play...putrid putrid offensive scheme.

[spisatus]

I don't buy the quinn argument...hiding his flaws would be to roll him out and have multiple crossing patterns...not sit him in the pocket and watch him become a deer in headlights. roll him out and throw downfield will atleast back the defense up and not having them stack the box with 11 because they know a three step drop is coming every play...putrid putrid offensive scheme.

 

 

I couldn't agree with your more. I have yet to see any originality in this Browns offense. You have a young QB that can move (unlike DA), why not roll him out? What has been really getting to me, is why when you have the defense coming SOOO hard at the QB, you don't run one QB draw. BQ is not McNabb but I know he can pull out a draw once in a while. This will likely slow down the defense and maybe give the O-line a chance to block.

[ballpeen]

2). A good coach structures his Scheme around his Team...not vice~versa...my second biggest concern about mangini. You adapt your offense and defense around the strentghs of your players and try to minimize their weakness'...It has to be collaborative and flexible and fluid, to me that's what a good coach does....I see the opposite with EM...Rigidly trying to fit players to his Scheme both on offense and defense.

 

I agree to an extent, and have said the same thing in the past, but Don Shula is about the only coach i can think of who actually altered his philosophy as his teams talent changed.....Csonka, Kick, Morris.....morphed in to the Marino air show.

 

Paul Brown brought in players who fit his mold....he didn't change what he wanted to do because the players might have wanted it, or even needed it..he was a mean SOB for those who lose sight of that fact, or didn't know. I think most do as it is easier to find players who fit the philosophy over changing what you want to do as a core philosophy ever few years.

 

But...where i really agree...you don't keep banging your head against a brick wall trying to run a guy who can't run as an example.

 

As far as Mangini is concerned, if he goes he goes and we really haven't wasted much time as this team was a mess before he ever came in....and the parts he selected last year....namely Mack will fit any coaches scheme...same with a few others....but I honestly don't think this year is a true reflection of mangini skill as a coach.

 

If the New GM decides he just wants to start fresh with his own guy, so be it. If he decides mangini is a guy he can go forward with, that is fine too.

[kshutchins]

REbuild? lololol.

 

There's nothing there. We're down to the foundation. We're under the foundation looking up. Just build, baby.

[JoeSixPat]

I agree to an extent, and have said the same thing in the past, but Don Shula is about the only coach i can think of who actually altered his philosophy as his teams talent changed.....Csonka, Kick, Morris.....morphed in to the Marino air show.

 

 

I'd give Parcells a lot of credit for adapting not only his schemes, but his approach to players, in an effort to bring out the best in them.

 

For example, personality wise Bledsoe needed to be treated a little bit gentler. Terry Glenn meanwhile needed to be kicked in his ass - hence Parcells calling him "she".

 

In both cases the different approach resulted in the desired impact. Parcells also adapted his game plan to the talent (or lack thereof) he had on the team.

 

Belichick I think tends to treat everyone pretty evenly... though veterans who he can trust to work out on their own get a pass in training camp quite often (they'll remain unsigned so as not to create a bad example... but actually everyone knows what's up and its actually a GOOD example that players who are professional enough get treated that way).

 

Belichick also is considered a deciple of the 3-4 defense.. so much so that nearly every team is adopting the 3-4 now making it more difficult to find the players that fit. So what does Belichick do? Given a lack of quality depth to run the 3-4 he switches to a 4-3 likely taking advantage of the fact that with so many teams adopting the 3-4 there are quality players to be found more attuned to the 4-3.

 

So I do think there's other examples of good coaches who adapt both their game plan and their approach to players as the situations requires.