Surge in Afgan.

[Chicopee John]

What do you think, guys?

 

I listened to some of it and have heard sound bites I didn't hear last night. In short, I consider this plan to be well thought out, pragmatic, and - hopefully - successful.

 

I support the action and am happy to hear Obama speak about Taliban and Al Queda is such grave terms.

 

 

One thing though, now that my son is 16 I am more leery about these types of actions.

 

God bless our troops!

[Westside Steve]

I wasn't gung ho about Iraq but I assume there were reasons above what we were told.

Euros v Dollars for oil for one.

 

I'm hoping that's the case here and that the Obama administration is not just naive.

If they're hiding something we're better off than I feared.

 

OTOH as the lefties say "There were no wmds in Iraq when we invaded!!"

True enough. But:

OBL hasn't been in Afghanistan for ages and I have no doubt Al Queda can plot their attacks from anywhere.

 

The timeline is typical Obama.

It's stupid to announce but you can push the bad (or good) news for a couple years.

America has a shrt memory.

Just make it up top please the opposition.

When the time comes merely shrug your shoulders blow it off.

There'll be a new crisis to occupy the news by then.

 

One thing I did as I watched the speech is imagine the outrage of the lefties had those same exact words been spoken by Bush.

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I don't like him announcing when we will remove the surge troops (Mid 2011). If I were the Taliban/Al Queda, I would just hunker down in my hole in the mountains, wait until the troops left, and start where I left off. Stupid.

[Kosar_For_President]

One thing I did as I watched the speech is imagine the outrage of the lefties had those same exact words been spoken by Bush.

 

So true, they are both crap.

[BrownIndian]

there will be no withdrawal from afghanistan ... sorry; just stating the obvious.

[Mr. T]

So Obama felt like he was in the enemies camp while giving his "unprecedented" speech.

 

 

Sounds like a coward to me, all he did was tell al qaeda when we were coming and when we will be leaving so lay low and no harm will come to you my muslim brothers.

 

 

 

Im not sold on it, neither is Obama he is playing politics with the lives of our military, the ones who have sacrificed so much to protect all of us while we enjoy all of the treasures that are available to each of us.

 

 

During the campaign they called Obama the empty suit, now we know why.

 

 

[Kosar_For_President]

I am not defending Obama on bit here, I am in favor of bringing a majority of all the troops there home, but everyone was bitching about not acting fast enough and now that he did you are still bitching. Wow, you're worse then my girl.

[Chicopee John]

So true, they are both crap.

 

 

Don't say that to XX, XXX, and XXXX.

 

I caught about 60 seconds of MSNBC last night - always an unpleasant experience - and Olbermann was almost begging Maxine Waters to say something nice about the surge.

 

Well, she did say he is a bright, articluate person but he backed himself into a corner during the campaign.

 

Olberman kept saying, dont you think..............dont you think..............dont you think.

 

[Mr. T]

I am not defending Obama on bit here, I am in favor of bringing a majority of all the troops there home, but everyone was bitching about not acting fast enough and now that he did you are still bitching. Wow, you're worse then my girl.

 

 

I am in favor of pulling back the troops and all of those who are not with al qaeda and then drop a couple of our nice weapons, say like hydrogen bombs, then let everybody back in.

 

Just look at all of the lives that will be saved then we can go forward to rebuilding the place without the coackroach al qaeda.

 

If you remember the shit worked in Japan at the end of WWII.

[Pumpkin Eater]

I don't like him announcing when we will remove the surge troops (Mid 2011). If I were the Taliban/Al Queda, I would just hunker down in my hole in the mountains, wait until the troops left, and start where I left off. Stupid.

 

my thoughts exactly.

[Chicopee John]

I don't know, T and Die, it seems to me that you won't even give Obama an inch or the benefit of a doubt.

 

Seems like you got everything wanted - at least it seems that way to me - but you looked and looked for a kernel that could be used to denigrate the entire plan.

 

Could you guys be happy with ANYTHING Obama brings forward?

 

I always like to distinguish between 'consensus' and 'commitment'. First of all, forget about 'consensus' - it is virtually impossible and, if it is possible, the horse is usually miles and miles out of the barn before the door is closed.

 

Commitment, however, is another animal all together.....You don't have to agree with 100% of the plan but there is enough there that you do agree with, you decide to commit to it.

 

On the surface, the argument that these folks are simply going to go underground for a few years and wait until we begin to move out is kind of simplistic. There will be more troops. They will cover more ground and will investigate more 'caves'. These guys have already committed a crime - they don't have to do anything at this point to make them 'guilty'.

 

I believe the pull out plan is political to appease the lefties who will begrugedly (sp) and quietly go along with the plan - don't expect any anti-war demonstrations.

 

The polar opposite of XX, XXX, and XXXX isn't any more effective and rational.

 

What do you LIKE about this plan?

 

 

[calfoxwc]

I like that he is sending more troops, but the enddate thing was strictly to pander to the left.

 

My biggest, most serious concern, is that Obamao and others of his leftist ilk, played politics with soldiers lives

 

during the campaign, discrediting Bush and running for Pres and other offices in Congress.

 

But, it reeks of the politically correct halfass running of the war. Send in more troops, but restrict

 

what they can do (rules of engagement) because of political avoidance of criticism, while

 

American soldiers die by great numbers because they are not allowed to WIN the battles and the war.

 

It's the LBJ syndrome during the Vietnam war.

 

Now, It's Obamao doing the same.

 

Check this out:

***********************************************

http://www.floppingaces.net/2009/09/09/oba...r-troops-lives/

 

 

The Marines were cut down as they sought cover in a trench at the base of the village’s first layer cake-style stone house. Much of their ammunition was gone. One Marine was bending over a second, tending his wounds, when both were killed, said Marine Cpl. Dakota Meyer, 21, of Greensburg, Ky., who retrieved their bodies.

 

Herschal Smith:

 

The new ROE should have been dealt with as a classified memorandum of encouragement and understanding to consider holistic consequences of actions rather than a change to formal rules by which our Marines and Soldiers are prosecuted by courts. Yet the damage has been and continues to be done by poor decisions at the highest levels of leadership.

 

Damn the ROE.

 

Herschal also takes issue with the leaders using the Anbar tactics in a completely different theater. Take for example the mission these Marines were on. To go talk to village leaders in an attempt to gain an alliance. But without the necessary force to back them up if it goes bad….and it did:

 

This was my fear – that counterinsurgency tactics advocated in FM 3-24 would become so religiously ingrained into the thinking of the armed forces that they would believe that it applies in any situation and without the necessary force projection to back up the nice intent.

 

Carrots and stick, folks. All carrots and no sticks makes for brave warriors who perish on the field of battle because the local fighters have little to fear – not because of our own warriors, but because of the lack of resourcing and tactics being implemented.

 

Things are going to turn real bad in Afghanistan because of the poor decisions being made by Obama, his Generals, and NATO. And my fear is that once enough of our bravest have died he will cut and run and leave that country to our enemy instead of doing what is necessary to win as Bush did in Iraq.

 

UPDATE

 

The calls for help was witnessed by a reporter:

 

A McClatchy newspapers’ journalist who witnessed the battle reported that a team of Marine trainers made repeated appeals for air and artillery support after being pinned down by insurgents in the village of Ganjgal in eastern Kunar province.

 

Press Secretary Geoff Morrell says it was the distance the helicopters had to fly that was responsible for the late help but the reporter who was with the troops disputes this as well as the soldiers on the ground.

 

According to the McClatchy report by Jonathan Landay, the US advisors assisting Afghan forces had been assured before the operation that “air cover would be five minutes away.”

 

UPDATE

 

Check this out…

 

Lt. Fabayo and several other soldiers later said they’d seen women and children in the village shuttling ammunition to fighters positioned in windows and roofs. Across the valley and from their ridgeline outposts, the Afghans and Americans fired back.

 

Read the whole account in the link I just gave, written by the reporter who witnessed the whole thing. In the reporters own words:

 

I wasn’t as terrified as I was angry: angry at the absence of air support, angry that there was no artillery fire

 

It’s a must read.

 

 

Obama’s Rules Of Engagement In Afghanistan Costing Our Troops Lives

Posted by: Curt @ 4:56 pm in Afghanistan, Barack Obama, Military, NATO, War On Terror, foreign policy | 4,011 views

 

Four Marines died yesterday in Afghanistan when the Taliban laid a trap:

 

Four U.S. Marines died Tuesday when they walked into a well-laid ambush by insurgents in Afghanistan’s eastern Kunar province. Seven Afghan troops and an interpreter for the Marine commander also died in the ambush and the subsequent battle, which lasted seven hours.

 

Three American service members and 14 Afghan security force members were wounded.

 

It was the largest number of American military trainers to die in a single incident since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion.

 

The battle took place around the remote hamlet of Gangigal, in a valley about six miles from the Pakistani border, after local elders invited the U.S. and Afghan forces for a meeting.

 

American officers said there was no doubt that they’d walked into a trap, as the insurgents were dug in at the village, and had preset their weapons and their fields of fire.

 

It was a trap alright….but one they could of extradited themselves out of if not for the rules of engagement laid out by Obama’s General, General Stanley McChrystal:

Airstrikes by coalition forces in Afghanistan have dropped dramatically in the three months Gen. Stanley McChrystal has led the war effort there, reflecting his new emphasis on avoiding civilian casualties and protecting the population.

 

NATO fixed-wing aircraft dropped 1,211 bombs and other munitions during the past three months — the peak of the fighting season — compared with 2,366 during the same period last year, according to military statistics. The nearly 50% decline in airstrikes comes with an influx of more than 20,000 U.S. troops this year and an increase in insurgent attacks.

 

The shift is the result of McChrystal’s new directives, said Air Force Col. Mark Waite, an official at the air operations center in southwest Asia. Ground troops are less inclined to call for bombing or strafing runs, though they often have an aircraft conduct a “show of force,” a flyby to scare off insurgents, or use planes for surveillance, Waite said.

 

The Marines who were killed were not the ones less inclined to call for a bombing run, in fact they were depending on it to get them out of the trap….and none came:

 

We walked into a trap, a killing zone of relentless gunfire and rocket barrages from Afghan insurgents hidden in the mountainsides and in a fortress-like village where women and children were replenishing their ammunition.

 

“We will do to you what we did to the Russians,” the insurgent’s leader boasted over the radio, referring to the failure of Soviet troops to capture Ganjgal during the 1979-89 Soviet occupation.

 

Dashing from boulder to boulder, diving into trenches and ducking behind stone walls as the insurgents maneuvered to outflank us, we waited more than an hour for U.S. helicopters to arrive, despite earlier assurances that air cover would be five minutes away.

 

U.S. commanders, citing new rules to avoid civilian casualties, rejected repeated calls to unleash artillery rounds at attackers dug into the slopes and tree lines — despite being told repeatedly that they weren’t near the village.

 

“We are pinned down. We are running low on ammo. We have no air. We’ve lost today,” Marine Maj. Kevin Williams, 37, said through his translator to his Afghan counterpart, responding to the latter’s repeated demands for helicopters.

 

While the enemy was directly responsible for their deaths, those rules of engagement, and those leaders who refused to send help also have blood on their hands.

 

 

 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I don't know, T and Die, it seems to me that you won't even give Obama an inch or the benefit of a doubt.

 

He imo is letting politics interfere with his job as Commander in Chief. He took way to long to come to a decison..

 

Seems like you got everything wanted - at least it seems that way to me - but you looked and looked for a kernel that could be used to denigrate the entire plan.

 

Could you guys be happy with ANYTHING Obama brings forward?

 

He took way to long to finally come to a decision on how many troops. He did not go with the recommendation of his hand picked General.

 

I always like to distinguish between 'consensus' and 'commitment'. First of all, forget about 'consensus' - it is virtually impossible and, if it is possible, the horse is usually miles and miles out of the barn before the door is closed.

 

Commitment, however, is another animal all together.....You don't have to agree with 100% of the plan but there is enough there that you do agree with, you decide to commit to it.

 

I agree with more troops, but he should have sent the 40,000 asked for not 30,000.

 

On the surface, the argument that these folks are simply going to go underground for a few years and wait until we begin to move out is kind of simplistic. There will be more troops. They will cover more ground and will investigate more 'caves'. These guys have already committed a crime - they don't have to do anything at this point to make them 'guilty'.

 

I don't think you understand the size of the area where they could hide. It is vast. I disagree with your term "crime", I would call it a terrorist act. Comparing what they did to a crime is not wise.

 

I believe the pull out plan is political to appease the lefties who will begrugedly (sp) and quietly go along with the plan - don't expect any anti-war demonstrations.

 

The polar opposite of XX, XXX, and XXXX isn't any more effective and rational.

 

What do you LIKE about this plan?

 

Not much. Him stating that it is limited is just giving way to much information to the enemy. These people can just simply blend into the civilian population, do hit and skip IED attacks, mortar attacks, etc. Wait until the troops leave and then go all out. If you are going to go for a "victory", you can't do it half assed. This is a half assed attempt to apease both sides of the "politcal" fence.

[Kosar_For_President]

I am in favor of pulling back the troops and all of those who are not with al qaeda and then drop a couple of our nice weapons, say like hydrogen bombs, then let everybody back in.

 

Just look at all of the lives that will be saved then we can go forward to rebuilding the place without the coackroach al qaeda.

 

If you remember the shit worked in Japan at the end of WWII.

 

The Japanese was beat, the h bomb just made them surrender

[Chicopee John]

Thanks for your thoughts, Die.

[Mr. T]

The Japanese was beat, the h bomb just made them surrender

 

 

Of course they were beaten, they were scared shitless when they saw their brothers, cousins and so on get vaporized.

 

poof!!

 

Also by using the bombs it stopped the whole population of the japanese from suicide

[osusev]

I am in favor of pulling back the troops and all of those who are not with al qaeda and then drop a couple of our nice weapons, say like hydrogen bombs, then let everybody back in.

 

Just look at all of the lives that will be saved then we can go forward to rebuilding the place without the coackroach al qaeda.

 

If you remember the shit worked in Japan at the end of WWII.

 

that might be the dumbest comparison ever.

[osusev]

come on you guys..... this is not really about Afghanistan.... no economy or even hope of one. very little natural resources except poppy..... EXTREMELY tribal like society.....extremely uneducated...... never been a strong central government......... extremely religous..... geographically almost impossible to root out "insurgents" out of each valley.....

 

PAKISTAN IS NUCLEAR...... INDIA IS NUCLEAR....... clear the cobwebs its about regional nuclear stabilization..... keeping Pakistan stable when they have MASSIVE problem with their very segmented population.

 

We cant really stabilize Afghanistan.... totally corrupt ineffective central government with Valley by Valley controlled tribal populations with warlords infused with opium cash and influenced heavily by the taliban (religion)

 

PAKISTAN is nuclear and you evidently have forgotten about how they were the ones selling nuclear secrets to Iran/Iraq/North Korea/ anyone with money in the first place. India and Pakistan both are nuclear with a long combat history. Pakistan IF the Nuclear arsenal falls into the hands of their extremists we REALLY have something to worry about.

 

This "time" you partisans are crying about is because this is EXTREMELY complicated with many moving parts with all of the different regional problems.... let alone IRAN borders Afghanistan.

 

Keep talking about partisan attacks without looking at the regional issues. Stupid.

[Westside Steve]

Keep talking about partisan attacks without looking at the regional issues. Stupid.

 

Aside from trying to prop up your decision to vote for a man with the least military experience in many years after you demended it of a candidate just what is it about the Afghan invasion do you see as vital to the US security?

 

Are we just holding the fort until the UN can get things in order?

I can't imagine yuou believe that.

The UN is almost as corrupt and toothless as Karzai.

 

Can you at least admit that boasting of a "war of necessity" was just bullshit for the campaign?

 

I'm not saying I have a clear direction but he should pick one.

Go in like you mean it or get the f*ck out.

Pick one.

 

The number of people enthralled by the daily drone of his speeches is shtrinking.

 

WSS

 

 

[osusev]

Steve I dont care about Obama's speeches on this matter, however the time it took him was probably because of the political/PR component versus reality. The general American populace does not care about Pakistan or even thinks about regional stabilization but they do care about "terrorists" etc.

 

We broke a country that can destabilize a nuclear power who already has been caught selling nuclear secrets to other unstable nations. Its a massive problem and now one we are stuck with.

[Westside Steve]

Steve I dont care about Obama's speeches on this matter, however the time it took him was probably because of the political/PR component versus reality. The general American populace does not care about Pakistan or even thinks about regional stabilization but they do care about "terrorists" etc.

 

They don't care about Afghanistan for sure.

And we don't have much control over the Pakis or Iranians (who will be nuclear sooner than later)

 

We probably f*cked up by doing the UNs bidding in the first place.

A wink and a nod to Saddam overtaking Kuwait would have saved us a lot of problems. But...

 

We broke a country that can destabilize a nuclear power who already has been caught selling nuclear secrets to other unstable nations. Its a massive problem and now one we are stuck with.

 

We "broke" what wonderful piece of real estate???

 

And running another 30 K soldiers through the meat grinder for one year "fixes" it exactly how?

WSS

[Mr. T]

I don't know, T and Die, it seems to me that you won't even give Obama an inch or the benefit of a doubt.

 

Seems like you got everything wanted - at least it seems that way to me - but you looked and looked for a kernel that could be used to denigrate the entire plan.

 

 

 

What do you LIKE about this plan?

 

 

Obama is like a little spoiled kid it has taken him 5 months to act upon a request and the he did not even listen to those with experience in these matters like his generals, Obama put together some big political charade and had his West Point cadets to stand around him as props for a speech where they were even qued when to clap. Its all a dog and pony show to him, IMO he really dosn't give a damn you can tell that with the words that he says. Obama's only compassion is for and about himself and his ideals.

 

1 Corinthians 13

Love

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

 

 

He is nothing more than a talking billlboard.

[calfoxwc]

Sev, we were stuck with terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan before Bush was ever pres.

 

We were going to be hit on 9/11 for about 2.5 years of the Clinton admin.

 

The Soviets just got hit by a terrorist hit... is that because they went into Iraq?

 

No, it's because they aren't Muslim extremists. I don't see the idea that so many

 

wanted to diss Iraq in favor of Afghanistan as the problem, now so many want to diss Afghanistan

 

in favor of Pakistan being labeled the problem.

 

It sounds like anti-status quo whining, to me. Terrorism is a global problem, and we

 

have to go after it to hold it back.

 

The ever so popular liberal refrain of "we can't totally stop it, so we should do nothing" doesn't fly.

 

Neither does the whining.

 

But Steve is absolutely right. You either have just cause and you go in and completely kick ass, or you don't.

 

This LBJ politically expedient "rules of engagement" loses more American lives by far, than just going in and completely winning.

 

There's been about 400 legit enemy killed by predator drone attacks. Only 20 civilians killed. The 20 are very unfortunate, but

 

you don't have much choice. Things happen in war, you can't totally avoid it. But the NATA commander denying air strikes

 

to our soldiers under fire? He should be put into prison for a long, long time.