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Shaw's argument for firing Mangini


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16 games with Mangini is more than enough: Bud Shaw

By Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer

December 04, 2009, 8:13PM

 

A bad football team has become historically awful in its first year under Eric Mangini. And that's hardly the only reason why he should be one and done as Browns coach.

 

George Kokinis leaving the building with half a season remaining and with more people claiming Elvis sightings than general manager sightings.

 

Not one but two befuddled quarterbacks.

 

Jamal Lewis calling out Mangini for failing to take care of the "crops" not too long before taking a concussed and early retirement.

 

(Lewis retreated from those words. But he did so because he thought the coverage made him look as if he resented working hard.)

 

The debacle against Chicago/Green Bay/Detroit/all of the above.

 

In place of highlights, the FOX, CBS and ESPN studio analysts providing a laugh track at the mere mention of the Browns.

 

An offense reduced to its latest gimmick. What's the Browns' identity this deep into the season? The direct snap to Cribbs? Or Cribbs-to-Quinn?

 

The APB for Brian Robiskie, who can't get on the field ahead of Jake Allen. Claimed on waivers on Nov. 18, Allen was apparently rewarded for his hard work. All 10 days of it.

 

Shouldn't a 1-10 team be about developing young players? Remember when trading Braylon Edwards was going to mean an opportunity for Robiskie?

 

JOSHUA GUNTER / THE PLAIN DEALERIt's doubtful Eric Mangini's clipboard contains the blueprint for turning around the moribound Browns franchise.Maybe Mangini believes that Robiskie is developing on the sideline. After all, he swore that's one reason he put Brady Quinn back behind center.

 

The day of fantasy offensive football in Detroit aside, Quinn was better a year ago. Derek Anderson, too.

 

One defense of Mangini is that this is a young, talent-starved team. And that he bit the bullet hard with the owner's blessing to stockpile 11 picks for next year. Only the stockpiling is true.

 

The Browns are hardly young. One reason they're talent-starved is because the head coach didn't hit on the draft and didn't capitalize on roster turnover.

 

Now that the GM is long gone, how many candidates will line up to work with Mangini? Anyone feel comfortable with the draft day motherlode in Mangini's hands?

 

With five games remaining, the fear should be that Lerner won't land a football man with enough clout -- like Mike Holmgren -- to tell him his organization needs a complete fresh start, coach included.

 

Lerner might see the need to clear the decks himself if he considers a few simple questions.

 

Have his customers bought into Mangini? Have the players, other than the modestly skilled ex-Jets acquired to spread the gospel? What about Mangini would entice free agents?

 

Lerner lost GM candidates who either specifically didn't want to work with Mangini or wanted a say in the coaching hire. With any luck, he already sees the folly in that approach.

 

You've heard the argument for bringing Mangini back. The culture needed changing. The Browns are more disciplined -- the league's least penalized team. Who thought they would be good?

 

But step back and take an accident-scene gawk at what they've become.

 

They narrowly avoided another blackout Sunday. Oakland and Jacksonville will be much harder sells.

 

As will Browns fans come next year.

 

Think about it this way. Chris Palmer got fired after two seasons as the expansion coach of a runaway train. One year for the architect of this caboose seems just about right.

 

 

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I really don't think it's obvious that poor performances by Quinn, Anderson, and Robiskie are on Mangini. And Lewis' mouthing off? There was obviously more going on with Lewis than tough practices. The Kokinis situation is much too obscure to put much weight on that.

 

I'm not saying there is no case for firing Mangini. I just don't see it here, Bud.

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The problem with these sports writers is that they want a big old fluffy, media butt kisser for a coach, like Romeo Crennell. They will tolerate a loser as long as that loser is lovable to the media. They would rather have a lovable loser than a crusty, crotchety winner.

Now, obviously Mangini isn't a winner yet, and the losing just grates on the media more in addition to his attitude.

If the Browns do bring in this new GM/Czar, whatever, THAT person should have complete control of the football operations, including who the HC should be. But, if that were not to happen, then it would certainly be appropriate to let Mangini try to put in his program.

After all, Chuck Noll, who was no fluffy Teddy Bear, won 1 game his first year. Tom Landry, no cuddly type either, won -0- games his first year. Bill Belichick, obviously not to be confused with Rodney Dangerfield, had a poor record, not only here but in his first year as Pats HC. Jimmy Johnson won 1 game his first year. Originally, he was not that media friendly. He later became so.

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16 games with Mangini is more than enough: Bud Shaw

By Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer

December 04, 2009, 8:13PM

 

 

Not one but two befuddled quarterbacks.

What are you saying Bud..Both QB's aren' any good

 

Jamal Lewis calling out Mangini for failing to take care of the "crops" not too long before taking a concussed and early retirement.

 

(Lewis retreated from those words. But he did so because he thought the coverage made him look as if he resented working hard.)

 

Nick Mangold laughed on the radio saying Rex's practices are longer..lewis isn't complaing about his hefty pay check

 

 

In place of highlights, the FOX, CBS and ESPN studio analysts providing a laugh track at the mere mention of the Browns.

[An offense reduced to its latest gimmick. What's the Browns' identity this deep into the season? The direct snap to Cribbs? Or Cribbs-to-Quinn?

b]Lets get rid of a coach because Deon Sanders or Shannon Sharp say so?..Rich Gannon thought Mangini has the right take on rebuilding the team.[/b]

 

The APB for Brian Robiskie, who can't get on the field ahead of Jake Allen. Claimed on waivers on Nov. 18, Allen was apparently rewarded for his hard work. All 10 days of it.

 

Shouldn't a 1-10 team be about developing young players? Remember when trading Braylon Edwards was going to mean an opportunity for Robiskie?

 

Mangini makes it clear you must makes contributions on special teams and Robiskie hasn't shown a propensity to do so? Mangini makes it quite clear you must do someting besides play your position in every freakin press conference

 

 

The day of fantasy offensive football in Detroit aside, Quinn was better a year ago. Derek Anderson, too.

Oh..I see.. Mangini is to blame for Quinn inacuracy..seriously

 

Now that the GM is long gone, how many candidates will line up to work with Mangini? Anyone feel comfortable with the draft day motherlode in Mangini's hands?

Mangini has a good reputation in NFL circles..Many would want to work with him

 

With five games remaining, the fear should be that Lerner won't land a football man with enough clout -- like Mike Holmgren -- to tell him his organization needs a complete fresh start, coach included.

OOH..Mike Holgrem the "savior of all Football"..Shut up with that BS

 

What about Mangini would entice free agents?

Lets see Bud, Calvin Pace, Alan Faneca, Kris Jenkins,Brett Favre ring a bell? Pay them and they ALL come

 

Lerner lost GM candidates who either specifically didn't want to work with Mangini

Like exactly who Bud..Thats a statement that requires some factual information..or some Horse s**t you just made up

 

You've heard the argument for bringing Mangini back. The culture needed changing. The Browns are more disciplined -- the league's least penalized team. Who thought they would be good?

Anyone who understands football Bud..apparently not you.But step back and take an accident-scene gawk at what they've become.

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Mangini is a horrible coach trapped in his own ego with a small time scope and approach on things i can name 50 real reasons of my own off the top of my head why he should be a one and out coach ,but ultimately it doesnt matter because randolph lerner makes that call and im betting randy is stupid enough to keep mangini and keep us all depressed and anguished for years to come...as browns fans...dont say i didnt tell ya so..;)

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Not one but two befuddled quarterbacks.

What are you saying Bud..Both QB's aren' any good

Duh

Jamal Lewis calling out Mangini for failing to take care of the "crops" not too long before taking a concussed and early retirement.

 

(Lewis retreated from those words. But he did so because he thought the coverage made him look as if he resented working hard.)

 

Nick Mangold laughed on the radio saying Rex's practices are longer..lewis isn't complaing about his hefty pay check

 

Anytime a player criticzies the Mangenius there's always an excuse from his supporters who then turn around and say that the players don't display dislike for their coach

 

 

In place of highlights, the FOX, CBS and ESPN studio analysts providing a laugh track at the mere mention of the Browns.

[An offense reduced to its latest gimmick. What's the Browns' identity this deep into the season? The direct snap to Cribbs? Or Cribbs-to-Quinn?

b]Lets get rid of a coach because Deon Sanders or Shannon Sharp say so?..Rich Gannon thought Mangini has the right take on rebuilding the team.[/b]

No we shouldn't because media personalities say so, but when they give reasons why he's a failure, it doesn't invalidate their observations

The APB for Brian Robiskie, who can't get on the field ahead of Jake Allen. Claimed on waivers on Nov. 18, Allen was apparently rewarded for his hard work. All 10 days of it.

 

Shouldn't a 1-10 team be about developing young players? Remember when trading Braylon Edwards was going to mean an opportunity for Robiskie?

 

Mangini makes it clear you must makes contributions on special teams and Robiskie hasn't shown a propensity to do so? Mangini makes it quite clear you must do someting besides play your position in every freakin press conference

 

How can Robiskie make any contribution when he's not even dressing for games?

 

 

The day of fantasy offensive football in Detroit aside, Quinn was better a year ago. Derek Anderson, too.

Oh..I see.. Mangini is to blame for Quinn inacuracy..seriously

In part yes he is! Because he didn't give Quinn the full starts in preseason and yanked him three games in. How the hell could he possibly get enough practice to establish rhythm and raport?

 

Now that the GM is long gone, how many candidates will line up to work with Mangini? Anyone feel comfortable with the draft day motherlode in Mangini's hands?

Mangini has a good reputation in NFL circles..Many would want to work with him

 

If his reputation is so great, then why is he being nearly universally panned? How many owners that needed a new HC were beating down his door the second that Lerner showed interest in him? Why is Holmgren looking to head back to the Hawks?

 

With five games remaining, the fear should be that Lerner won't land a football man with enough clout -- like Mike Holmgren -- to tell him his organization needs a complete fresh start, coach included.

OOH..Mike Holgrem the "savior of all Football"..Shut up with that BS

Mangini essentially ran this past draft(if we're to believe Lerner's assertion Kokinis never did his job) and we saw how abysmal it was; he also sucks at PR; without a credible leader we have no public face regardless of your feelings on Mike. This point was also more than just Holmgren it was about anyone person with experience that won't become a Mangini acolyte

 

What about Mangini would entice free agents?

Lets see Bud, Calvin Pace, Alan Faneca, Kris Jenkins,Brett Favre ring a bell? Pay them and they ALL come

You killed your own argument here; it was the money that got Faneca and I don't think that money came from Eric's private printing press. Favre went somehwere where he could keep playing. Mangini had nothing to do with either one of those two acquisitions. And how many free agents, or even for that matter potential draft picks are hoping to end up in Cleveland?

 

Lerner lost GM candidates who either specifically didn't want to work with Mangini

Like exactly who Bud..Thats a statement that requires some factual information..or some Horse s**t you just made up

http://www.cleveland.com/brownsbeat/index.ssf/2009/01/cleveland_browns_gm_search_los.html

 

You've heard the argument for bringing Mangini back. The culture needed changing. The Browns are more disciplined -- the league's least penalized team. Who thought they would be good?

Anyone who understands football Bud..apparently not you.But step back and take an accident-scene gawk at what they've become.

I'll cede this point because the dumbass penalties from the Romeo era have evaporated, yet they've been replaced with dumbassed offensive plays that are either given approval by the Mangenius or uncorrected

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No doubt there are still a few fans who would argue with the truisms and points of these reporters.

 

The bottom line for Lerner however isn't whether Mangini is a misunderstood Lombardi or the football equivilent of Hitler. It's what the fans perceptions of him are - and that of course is based on a 1-10 record as of now, including some well publicized bone head missteps as a Coach/GM.

 

We could go into them in detail here... was Mangini's decision to hire Kokinis a wise decision? Was Mangini's decision to hand over the offense to Brian Daboll a good decision? Is Mangini's decision not to give rookies and younger players more playing time in a lost season wise? Did Mangini handle the QB situation well and are their trade values better or lower today, etc. etc..

 

But the bottom line for Lerner may be whether the fans believe those were all wise decisions.

 

And when you're looking at a string of potential blackouts coming up, it's going to be difficult to convince Lerner that his new coach has brought the organization and fans the fresh sense of hope, optimism and confidence that most owners expect when they hire a new coach.

 

Unfortunately for Mangini you only have one chance to make a first and lasting impression.

 

If a new GM and Coach have the potential to restore confidence and ticket sales I can't see why Lerner would be opposed to that.

 

 

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No doubt there are still a few fans who would argue with the truisms and points of these reporters.

 

and this is exactly why I argue against it....they are reporters they dislike the way mangini and others like him keep info a secret so a lot of this stuff is made up crap. NONE of us know what exactly is going on not even the reporters. Mangini told us at the beggining of the year this would be a rough season, its not his fault you all werent listening.

 

Me id rather look at the facts and see that people want to play for him, and the fact that his jets were 9-2 last year before favres arm fell off. Lerner is not as dumb as some of you portray him dont get me wrong he did make a mistake with savage and crennel but that was more the firm he hired to find them wrong doing. Mangini's hiring was a bit quick I wont lie, but that doesnt mean there werent other teams interested. It was Accorsi who recommended him and he didnt do to bad a job with those giants he had....right joe :)

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Mangini is a horrible coach trapped in his own ego with a small time scope and approach on things i can name 50 real reasons of my own off the top of my head why he should be a one and out coach ,but ultimately it doesnt matter because randolph lerner makes that call and im betting randy is stupid enough to keep mangini and keep us all depressed and anguished for years to come...as browns fans...dont say i didnt tell ya so..;)

 

Every HC that has ever lived has got an ego that can fill a stadium, that's a terrible argument. The small time scope argument is just inaccurate. It is the exact opposite. EM is technically building a brand new franchise from the ground up. Its like a team of replacements that needs to not only learn how to play football, but also needs how to LIVE the football player's life. This takes a few years at least as most of club Romeo's guys are now spoiled and feel entitled (see BE). The roster needs flipped and the culture needs gutted. I mean, this losing culture is so deep that it has bled over to the fans and the media. That is no easy fix my friends. Yeah Mangini dosn't tell too many jokes but WHO GIVES A F**K?! And if you go through this year's pres on the Brown's, any contraversy the media has tried to drum up has been debunked eventually. If you list all of the "scandal" they have put out there this year you can debunk each one of them one at a time. That's why the media is now taking a very narrow view of the situatio and basically saying "The Browns Suck!". Why aren't they bringing up all of these scandals they used all year to sell paper's and build up web-site hits? Because they have all been eventually disproven.

 

Here's a little life lesson about the media. If you don't give them all the BS fodder they want from you they will bash you in public for as long as it takes for you to give in, and give them what they want. They must make an example out of you and sadly, a lot if fans eat this crap up and assume there is some merit to their words. Its all BS and our local media has got to be the worst in the country. If I've lost faith in anything Brown's related this year its the local coverage. This town is filled with a bunch washed up, old fashioned media drones who's ego's are bigger than Mangini's will ever be but have far less chance of ever creating something worth-while or lasting.

 

 

PS. National media needs one butt of a joke each year and who better than the guy who ratted out BB. A recognized name, and an easy target. Its all TMZ folks just some hide it better than others.

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I think the issue for Lerner is quite simple. You can't go back in time and you made a committment to Mangini. You gave him a terrible team and asked him to start the rebuilding process. Has he been perfect? No. Does he deserve another year? Yes, because nobody could have accomplished it in a year. Does this team need a really good GM? Absolutely. So (Mr. Lerner) stop making mistakes and go hire the best GM you can find and afford. Give the GM control of the team with the understanding that the coach needs a chance to prove himself for one more year. That condition does not apply to the players or other coaches and we should definitely get ourselves a new OC.

 

My biggest crticism of Mangini is the handling of the team's new players. This was a throw-away season and all the newly drafted players and developing players should have seen more playing time. If I were the coach, I would have made that trade with the Giants for Edwards, immediately started both Robisiki and Mass. Immediately named BQ the starter and stuck with him unless injured. Used Harrision and the rookie RB instead of Lewis. Etc. Our record woudn't be any different but at least our players would be developing and we would know if they could cut the mustard by year-end.

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