What do you think our policy focus should be in Iraq

[osusev]

Iraq and its Shiite controlling government is obviously going to deal heavily (they already are) with Iran.

 

The sunni's and the Kurds still have their own armies basically as do the shiites.

 

How do you guys think the Next president should shape his policies with Iraq economically and militarily?

[Pumpkin Eater]

I like the idea of splitting Iraq into three seperate factions.

[Westside Steve]

I like the idea of splitting Iraq into three seperate factions.

 

 

Yeah that'll work

 

 

Straight from Mr. Biden himself, and it's a terrible idea, just like going over there and trying to bring democracy to that region. We ain't splittin' shit.

 

Oh it's a great idea.

But it won't work in a million years.

Sending Sugar Pops Pete over to blast 'em with his sugar popper to sweeten 'em up is a good idea too.

If it'd work.

 

(sorry if the ref is too dated)

 

WSS

 

Best bet is to plant as many people over there as we can in their gov't to keep an eye on things and bring our troops home. We have many other countries to invade.

[Guest Aloysius]

Our main problems are probably of the Sunni-Shia variety.

 

For instance, we're going to be paying the salaries of the Sunni Awakening forces for a long time. The Shiite-dominated gov't probably won't pay them regularly (or at all), so we'll end up paying Sunnis not to return to the insurgency.

 

In addition, it's not very well-known that Iraq actually has two intelligence services: one run by the Iraqi gov't and one the CIA started with the Sunnis.

 

Obviously, the Iraqi gov't wants that second intelligence service to come under its control, but the Sunnis will resist & we might want to keep it as a counterbalance to the Iranian-tied Shiite gov't.

 

On the Kurdish front, representatives of the Kurdish gov't recently met with reps from the Turkish gov't, which is a very good sign. We don't need Turkey engaging in cross-border raids; only we should be allowed to do that

 

Based on the recently-leaked SOFA, it looks like the plan is to have US troops out of all Iraqi cities by the end of 2009, and (hopefully) all combat troops out by 2011.

 

That sounds like a reasonable timetable.

[osusev]

I dont think there is such a thing as a unified Iraq right now. The "surge" is not what is stabilizing the "country" its our money being paid to the Sunni's and the Kurds who have their own autonomous region with their own military in the north not fighting either the Shia or Sunni's.

 

IT ALREADY IS THREE NATIONS. The Shiites are going to continue to deal with Iran and the Sunni's will want to keep their own organizations or they will be wiped out by the Iranian backed Shia.

 

I like the people who denigrate the three seperate groups with one loose central federal government because the the reality is that it basically exists right now. That is what is keeping the peace not the surge, along of course with our Israeli type assasination tactics.

[Pumpkin Eater]

I dont think there is such a thing as a unified Iraq right now. The "surge" is not what is stabilizing the "country" its our money being paid to the Sunni's and the Kurds who have their own autonomous region with their own military in the north not fighting either the Shia or Sunni's.

 

IT ALREADY IS THREE NATIONS. The Shiites are going to continue to deal with Iran and the Sunni's will want to keep their own organizations or they will be wiped out by the Iranian backed Shia.

 

I like the people who denigrate the three seperate groups with one loose central federal government because the the reality is that it basically exists right now. That is what is keeping the peace not the surge, along of course with our Israeli type assasination tactics.

 

perhaps the government should be set up something like our government, i.e. the great compromise, when small states were worried about representation?

 

in any event, the three factions will not be happy with each other unless there is equal representation and no favoritism. I doubt that would ever happen as one country, and even if resources are being divided equally among each faction, they will not be happy because the population differences between the two will allow one faction to get most of the money or to be underfunded, depending on how resources are divided.

[Westside Steve]

Anybody see the irony of Biden calling for nation building?

 

BTW all in all how successful have the UN or European colonialists been in creating new and improved nations?

 

And the proper strategy in Iraq is give Petraeus the green light to go ahead wiht the plan in place which will get up the hell out of there in about the same time as the white flag plan.

(Which BTW has only been made possible by the McCain surge plan)

 

WSS

[osusev]

Steve you really dont understand the "surge" of 30k extra personnel is not the stabilizing factor do you.

 

ITS the MONEY we give to the Sunni factions along with the hits we are making with intelligence and MONEY we throw at intelligence against the Shia leadership IE:they syria hit recently. That is what is temporarily stabilizing Iraq. The moment the MONEY dries up to the Sunni's they will be at full go against the Shia and vice versa.

 

IF we leave without some sort of structure like say BOSNIA you know splitting them up like BIden suggested they will be at war with each other.

 

It was a nice try to link partisan credit for something that has NOTHING to do with poliitcs. We are using money to placate one side and Israeli black ops and intelligence tactics to actively assasinate leaders of the Shia militia on the other..... funny Al Sadr is hiding in IRAN for a good reason.... so he does not get killed by our black ops.

[Pumpkin Eater]

even then, one congressman can hardly take credit for something that he had absolutely nothing to do with. The president is Commander-in-chief.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I say we withdraw within 18 months. Let them kill each other off, I could care less really. Keep a close eye on them for terror training camps and if we locate them, destroy them. We need to concentrate our forces in the Afganistan/Iran/Pakistan border region. We can't worry about Iraq anymore. We got rid of Hussein, have a relatively stable government. Let them sort it out.

[Westside Steve]

Steve you really dont understand the "surge" of 30k extra personnel is not the stabilizing factor do you.

 

So you're saying that Senator Obama lied when he grudgingly acknowledged it?

 

ITS the MONEY we give to the Sunni factions along with the hits we are making with intelligence and MONEY we throw at intelligence against the Shia leadership IE:they syria hit recently. That is what is temporarily stabilizing Iraq. The moment the MONEY dries up to the Sunni's they will be at full go against the Shia and vice versa.

 

IF we leave without some sort of structure like say BOSNIA you know splitting them up like BIden suggested they will be at war with each other.

 

Well let's see that pie in the sky plan happen.

We should have the clout to form three countries right?

Especially after the Obama pledge to bail ASAP.

 

It was a nice try to link partisan credit for something that has NOTHING to do with poliitcs. We are using money to placate one side and Israeli black ops and intelligence tactics to actively assasinate leaders of the Shia militia on the other..... funny Al Sadr is hiding in IRAN for a good reason.... so he does not get killed by our black ops.

 

Shoulda wiped him out three and a half years ago.

WSS

[osusev]

No steve I dont think Obama is lying intentionally, no more than Mccain is. I would bet 1000 dollars that both know that our assasinations and CIA hit squads are heavily to credit and not the surge. They both also know that we are paying off the other half of the problem in Iraq.

 

Does the American General public want to know or be associated with bribery and assasinations? NO, but that the reality of what we are doing. The term "surge" you better believe was designed to alleviate the PR problem for telling us why Iraq is stabilizing.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Sev, your tripping on something. You really believe that bullshit? What happened to you? Good lord.

[osusev]

Come on Diehard you know the concentration of law enforcement to citizen in the U.S. is something like 1 to 386. thats what keeps us (who I like to believe much more civilized than say the Iraqis) even with the additional "surge" against armed militias and crazy religous zealouts the ratio in iraq is something like 1 to 3000..

 

There police force and military is basically sectarion thugs and other militia members. The ratio is not enough of a saturation to truly keep the peace. It is a fact that we pay the Sunni's, it is a fact that our black ops and intelligence agencies have the go for assasinating heads of "terrorists".

 

The general public here does not want to accept real on the ground reality of war let alone HOW we are controlling the violence. You really think a few more troops patrolling is seriously tamping down Suicide bombers? Thats exactly what they want... If you start cutting off the leaders and funding people currency to tell on them that is what tamps down these extremists.

[Mr. T]

Iraq really dosn't want us pulling out, because if we do they fear Iran will start a war with them.

 

They like our presence over there, they just want some accountability of foreigners in there country. aka blackwater

[Guest Aloysius]

Our main problems are probably of the Sunni-Shia variety.

 

For instance, we're going to be paying the salaries of the Sunni Awakening forces for a long time. The Shiite-dominated gov't probably won't pay them regularly (or at all), so we'll end up paying Sunnis not to return to the insurgency.

Unfortunately, the Awakening forces appear to be becoming a huge issue:

 

Seven car bombs exploded across Baghdad yesterday in a surge of violence linked to growing dissatisfaction among the Sunni militias that helped turn the tide against al-Qaida and other insurgent groups.The wave of attacks - the largest number of bombs in one day in almost two years - killed 34 people and wounded close to 120. The city was rocked by blasts throughout the morning, within two days of the sixth anniversary of the fall of Baghdad, which had been seen by defence officials as a potential landmark date for Sunni-linked militants and loyalists to executed president Saddam Hussein, who was a Sunni.

 

Yesterday's attacks follow a series of arrests of ranking members of the militias - known as Awakening Councils - whom government officials branded as outlaws. The arrests led to pitched street battles and have stirred anger among the groups, with some officials claiming they will soon be discarded despite the key role they played against al-Qaida in 2007. A spokesman for Iraq's interior ministry said Iraqi officials had an open mind about the cause of yesterday's violence but feared it might be the start of a renewed push.

 

"We are considering all the probabilities," Major General Abdul Kareem Kaliph said. "First the ongoing release of prisoners from US detention centres." Since the start of the year, the US military has been releasing up to 1,500 detainees a month from its detention centres, which it aims to close by the end of 2009 and transfer to Iraqi control. The Iraqi government had approved of the handover, but now fears that some senior militia members are among those being released. Defence officials have confirmed that one former detainee has been responsible for a suicide attack in recent months.

 

Several stashes of gold have been found in northern Iraq over the past fortnight, in what is believed to have been a foreign-led attempt to refill the insurgents' war chest. However there is little evidence that foreign fighters have been able to penetrate the country in large numbers as they did from 2004-07.

 

Sheikh Ali Hatem al-Suleiman, a tribal leader from Anbar province, which acted as the gateway for foreign insurgents, said there was a clear link between the renewed violence and current political tensions. "Five to six months ago we warned the government, but there are many officers in the government that did not accept them, like the parliament, which has been slow to approve their salaries," he said. "This has caused an adverse effect. Also, when they have been arresting Awakening leaders, they are using great force. If they are wanted by the Iraqi government, why are they dealing with them in the first place, giving them weapons and salaries? It is a mistake to arrest them like this."

 

A spokesman for the Awakening Councils acknowledged that al-Qaida members had infiltrated the movement's ranks, but said it was now up to the security forces to weed them out.

[Legacy Fan]

Since the start of the year, the US military has been releasing up to 1,500 detainees a month from its detention centres,

 

Holy shit.

[calfoxwc]

Releasing that many detainees? Based on... WHAT?

 

We surely are going to get hit again.

 

I think we need to resolve the Iraq and Afghanistan terrorist problems and have our

military come back here to fight terrorists here.

 

Whether they are in the Congress or Potus or not. @@

[Guest Aloysius]

I'm guessing the issue is that we can't hand these detainees over the Iraqi central government, given that they'll do not very nice things to Sunnis known to have been active in the insurgency.

 

As for the security issue - yes, it could pose a problem, but the surge itself was built upon bribing former al Qaeda allies into joining our side. So we can't be too upset about pretty bad dudes going free - a lot of those guys are now on US gov't payroll.

[Legacy Fan]

I'm guessing the issue is that we can't hand these detainees over the Iraqi central government, given that they'll do not very nice things to Sunnis known to have been active in the insurgency.

 

As for the security issue - yes, it could pose a problem, but the surge itself was built upon bribing former al Qaeda allies into joining our side. So we can't be too upset about pretty bad dudes going free - a lot of those guys are now on US gov't payroll.

 

My problems with this are:

A) We have that many detainees to begin with... (yet still are fighting an invisible threat armed with pitchforks & ponies) but anyway.... There are so many, that if we train the Iraqi's well enough that we are comfortable with turning over security to them, then theoretically they will be able to re-capture these persons of interest and end up launching the human rights catastrophe we're hoping to avoid by releasing them now anyway. Huge waste of time, work, and resources, if you ask me.

 

B ) We aren't exactly the 101st liberating concentration camps back in '45. Some of these guys belong there, and probably deserve what comes their way if handed over to the Shiites in charge.

[Guest Aloysius]

A) We have that many detainees to begin with... (yet still are fighting an invisible threat armed with pitchforks & ponies) but anyway.... There are so many, that if we train the Iraqi's well enough that we are comfortable with turning over security to them, then theoretically they will be able to re-capture these persons of interest and end up launching the human rights catastrophe we're hoping to avoid by releasing them now anyway. Huge waste of time, work, and resources, if you ask me.

Well, that gets to the tension inherent in the surge strategy: we both built up the central gov't with the envisioned goal of governing the entire country and local militias like the Awakening to govern Sunni areas. With the US beginning to withdraw, an obvious tension will arise between the Shiite central gov't, which wants to impose its will on the entire country, and the Sunni militias that view the central gov't with a great deal of hostility.

 

As you said, this could end badly. Things are better than they were pre-surge, but it could all still fall part.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

My personal opinion is that Dentist's and Ad writer's should stick to their "profession" and let the man work be done by the military. Next.

[Guest mz.]

Hey DieHard, there was actually a conversation two intelligent people going on here before you Retarded it up.

 

Is it me, or am I the only one who doesn't have you on ignore at this point?

[DTBH]

My personal opinion is that Dentist's and Ad writer's should stick to their "profession" and let the man work be done by the military. Next.

 

Translation..

 

"I'm about as smart as the average babboon so I had no choice but to hold a gun and wear a helmet. I could never earn a legit college degree because earning a degree requires hard work, intelligence, and dedication. Holding a gun and saluting your immediate superior requires none of that."

 

Blue collar work gets paid shit wages for a reason, despite that it's "man" work. Because it's easy and a monkey can do it. White collar work gets paid the big money and the great benefits for a reason. Because we deserve it. And it's real "man's" work.

 

Luckily for you, you were stupid enough (and you can call it brave if that makes you feel better) to put your life on the line, so you're getting paid better than your Retarded monkey ass would be if you were sweeping floors at Wal-Mart.

[Herman M]

Hey DieHard, there was actually a conversation two intelligent people going on here before you Retarded it up.

 

Is it me, or am I the only one who doesn't have you on ignore at this point?

 

 

Who the fook was DieHard talking to?

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Translation..

 

"I'm about as smart as the average babboon so I had no choice but to hold a gun and wear a helmet. I could never earn a legit college degree because earning a degree requires hard work, intelligence, and dedication. Holding a gun and saluting your immediate superior requires none of that."

 

Blue collar work gets paid shit wages for a reason, despite that it's "man" work. Because it's easy and a monkey can do it. White collar work gets paid the big money and the great benefits for a reason. Because we deserve it. And it's real "man's" work.

 

Luckily for you, you were stupid enough (and you can call it brave if that makes you feel better) to put your life on the line, so you're getting paid better than your Retarded monkey ass would be if you were sweeping floors at Wal-Mart.

LMAO at Doggie the dick licker. I bet I make more than you now doggie. And your tax dollars are paying my retired pay, make sure you pay on April 15th. Don't be late.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Hey DieHard, there was actually a conversation two intelligent people going on here before you Retarded it up.

 

Is it me, or am I the only one who doesn't have you on ignore at this point?

 

 

Did I hit a nerve sissy boy? You don't have to like what I say, I could care less puss. Now go to the pro gay rally with your boyfriend and let men discuss war. Not pussies like you and Dog the dick licker. Next-------

[Kosar_For_President]

Did I hit a nerve sissy boy? You don't have to like what I say, I could care less puss. Now go to the pro gay rally with your boyfriend and let men discuss war. Not pussies like you and Dog the dick licker. Next-------

 

 

This about sums up that statement.

[Mr. T]

Translation..

 

"I'm about as smart as the average babboon so I had no choice but to hold a gun and wear a helmet. I could never earn a legit college degree because earning a degree requires hard work, intelligence, and dedication. Holding a gun and saluting your immediate superior requires none of that."

 

Blue collar work gets paid shit wages for a reason, despite that it's "man" work. Because it's easy and a monkey can do it. White collar work gets paid the big money and the great benefits for a reason. Because we deserve it. And it's real "man's" work.

 

Luckily for you, you were stupid enough (and you can call it brave if that makes you feel better) to put your life on the line, so you're getting paid better than your Retarded monkey ass would be if you were sweeping floors at Wal-Mart.

 

These statements are from someone who is a self proclaimed intelectual, who has been schooled by some of the best.

 

Did you just graduate middle school?

 

[calfoxwc]

DTBH -

 

In your immature and dense liberal attack, you have just dissed all soldiers. This is mz the pussy's

 

method of hitting below the belt.

 

There are a lot of us who are very, very proud of our United States military service, and

 

far too many have died doing their job fighting terrorism, protecting this country, or rescuring civilians

 

to make blanket statements like that.

 

I know DH is wild and crazy and deserves some responses in kind, but seriously, both of you. Watch what

 

you are saying. There is no need to hit below the belt, and DH just said you weren't soldiers, you were in your different

 

carreers. DH never said you were stupid for your career. He never said you were "stupid" for your career.

 

WE don't put down dentsitry, right? But some of you "intellectual" arrogant libs pretend to be experts at

 

our military careers. Let's all be free to be proud of our careers without the serious, personal cheapshots.

 

Stop.