dj_illness Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 i was reading on another site (browns fans) and someone suggested switching to the 4-3. as i recall, there were a few good points: - a lot of colleges run 4-3, so new players wouldn't have to make transitions to positions, systems they aren't familiar with - even some players we have now (Shawn Rodgers) have played in 4-3 and been (more?) productive - our pass rush with 3 on the line is NOT terribly effective i dunno.... just seemed like an interesting point. what do you all think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClevelandFanForLife Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 i was thinking the same thing yesterday. we could have rodgers and suh at tackle, wimbley and veikune (his natural position) at end, barton/jackson at mlb (even though he is undersized), and bowens/maiva/trusnik at olb. i think we should make the switch. we would need some shut down corners though and have a line that can put a ton of pressure on the qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_illness Posted December 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 i was thinking the same thing yesterday. we could have rodgers and suh at tackle, wimbley and veikune (his natural position) at end, barton/jackson at mlb (even though he is undersized), and bowens/maiva/trusnik at olb. i think we should make the switch. we would need some shut down corners though and have a line that can put a ton of pressure on the qb. it's a really good picture to imagine, isn't it? it seems to make a TON of sense. but why do i feel like it's nowhere on the radar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFreeze Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 How many years now have we run the 3-4 defense without success? I never liked it because we didn't have the proper personell to make it work effectively, but we stubbornly stuck with the thing. Whatever enables us to put consistant pressure on the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClevelandFanForLife Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 it's a really good picture to imagine, isn't it? it seems to make a TON of sense. but why do i feel like it's nowhere on the radar? because mangini is a stubborn a-hole who tries to force things to work even if they don't. there is no reasoning with someone who thinks they're always right: look at lumburgh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 it's a really good picture to imagine, isn't it? it seems to make a TON of sense. but why do i feel like it's nowhere on the radar? You feel that way because Head Coaches and DCs are going to run the type of defense they want to run and the talent on their rosters will just have to adjust to that even if that talent is better suited to another system. I don't know about any defensive examples, but the most obvious example I can think of is when Jeff Garcia was here. Garcia was a pure system QB. He was a fish out of water when he tried to do anything other than the West Coast offense. He thrived in that offense in SF, and Philly, and some other location. But when he was here, they wanted him to run a different kind of offense, Garia's talents and capabilities be damned. He ended up a square peg in a round hole and could never fit. The same is true for defenses, be it 3-4 or 4-3s. These guys require that the talent fit the system rather than the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louisville Slugger Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I dont think its the fact we dont have the people to run a 3-4. I think its more we dont have the people to field a legitimate defense. We have 2 LBs on the on the active roster Costanzo and Miava. The rest are DE/OLBs so we dont have enough LBers to run any kind of defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedawg Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 3-4, 4-3, whatever. We don't have the talent on defense to run anything effectively right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samoth Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 We have always had good 4-3 linemen and we squeeze them into a 3-4 system they can't make plays in, and with no talent at LB it makes our defense even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roach Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 i was reading on another site (browns fans) and someone suggested switching to the 4-3. as i recall, there were a few good points: - a lot of colleges run 4-3, so new players wouldn't have to make transitions to positions, systems they aren't familiar with - even some players we have now (Shawn Rodgers) have played in 4-3 and been (more?) productive - our pass rush with 3 on the line is NOT terribly effective i dunno.... just seemed like an interesting point. what do you all think? i suggested it in the Suh thread. There are plenty of reasons to consider the switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_illness Posted December 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I dont think its the fact we dont have the people to run a 3-4. I think its more we dont have the people to field a legitimate defense. We have 2 LBs on the on the active roster Costanzo and Miava. The rest are DE/OLBs so we dont have enough LBers to run any kind of defense. that new guy we picked up from the Jets is pretty good too.... better than we've had, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpolen4 Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 As long as Mangini is here there will be a 3-4. Its just his type and what he will run. 4-3 would be more effective but your going to have to get all new LB'ers that fit it. Jackson is good but undersized, Trusnik isnt a starter, bowens doesnt have enough speed i think. According to http://www.footballsfuture.com/2010/fa/lb.html Demarco Ryans, Kirk Morrison, Thomas Howard, Thomas Davis, Keith Bullock are free agents who play in a 4-3 who could contribute by being able to get just one of them. Just thoughts...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 The appeal of the 3-4 is that you have another linebacker on the field to either blitz or drop into coverage. Mangini and Ryan are 3-4 guys, and I can see why, it really seems like a superior system. But that's IF you have the talent at LB, which we do not. The pass rush primarily comes from the LB's in the 3-4, and the DL is there for run support and to take up blockers. In the 4-3, however, the pass rush comes primarily from DL, with the LB's to fill gaps for run support. I could understand the lobby for a move to the 4-3, with the success of teams like Carolina (in the past), NYG and Indy that run it. The problem is we don't have the personnel to run either system. We don't have a Peppers/Freeney/Umeyiora type player for DE. Rogers/Rubin/Smith/Williams are all big, run stopping 3-4 linemen. Suh could benefit from either scheme, he's got the pass rushing abilities for a DL in the 4-3, and the run stopping abilities for a DL in the 3-4. Personally, I think we should switch our base to South Carolina's system. The 4-2-5 nickel formation, but the nickel back being a "spurback" hybrid CB/LB. We'd surprise the shit out of everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louisville Slugger Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Trusnik is horrible in coverage and Im not sure what his natural position but hes built in the DE/OLB mold. Trusnik and Roth have the same problems. Not great athletes who need to work on their tackling. I hate seeing NFL players whiff because they dont keep theyre heads up. Id let Roth start becasue of his pass rush skills and he holds his ground in the running game but we need to get a stud on the other side to compensate. Trusnik is a decent bench player but should never start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_illness Posted December 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 The appeal of the 3-4 is that you have another linebacker on the field to either blitz or drop into coverage. Mangini and Ryan are 3-4 guys, and I can see why, it really seems like a superior system. But that's IF you have the talent at LB, which we do not. The pass rush primarily comes from the LB's in the 3-4, and the DL is there for run support and to take up blockers. In the 4-3, however, the pass rush comes primarily from DL, with the LB's to fill gaps for run support. I could understand the lobby for a move to the 4-3, with the success of teams like Carolina (in the past), NYG and Indy that run it. The problem is we don't have the personnel to run either system. We don't have a Peppers/Freeney/Umeyiora type player for DE. Rogers/Rubin/Smith/Williams are all big, run stopping 3-4 linemen. Suh could benefit from either scheme, he's got the pass rushing abilities for a DL in the 4-3, and the run stopping abilities for a DL in the 3-4. Personally, I think we should switch our base to South Carolina's system. The 4-2-5 nickel formation, but the nickel back being a "spurback" hybrid CB/LB. We'd surprise the shit out of everyone. A- we're not stopping the run. (this sunday aside), let's be honest. so what good is our 3-4? I want to see Shawn Rodgers kill a quarterback. period. B- i don't think we can do anything super complicated or gimicky. heck, i'd LOVE to see us be tight-lipped and "surprise" everyone with the 4-3. maybe Mangini would get excited if he had a secret to keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_illness Posted December 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Trusnik is horrible in coverage and Im not sure what his natural position but hes built in the DE/OLB mold. Trusnik and Roth have the same problems. Not great athletes who need to work on their tackling. I hate seeing NFL players whiff because they dont keep theyre heads up. Id let Roth start becasue of his pass rush skills and he holds his ground in the running game but we need to get a stud on the other side to compensate. Trusnik is a decent bench player but should never start didn't he get that safety a game or two ago? (or if it's DET, i guess that doesn't count) i guess anybody who makes BIG PLAYS (read: sack, safety, interception) on D is good in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 A- we're not stopping the run. (this sunday aside), let's be honest. so what good is our 3-4? I want to see Shawn Rodgers kill a quarterback. period. B- i don't think we can do anything super complicated or gimicky. heck, i'd LOVE to see us be tight-lipped and "surprise" everyone with the 4-3. maybe Mangini would get excited if he had a secret to keep. A- We aren't stopping the run. I agree. But we're definitely showing sparks of improvement, you can't deny that. Shaun Rogers can benefit from either system, but his size definitely fits a 3-4 moreso than a 4-3. The problem is, our other positions are geared more towards a 3-4 than a 4-3. Outside of Rogers, nobody else is really going to transition well. Ryan is a 3-4 coach, so he'd have to implement a new system he's not used to running. We'd have to rebuild the defense yet again, which would set us back even further. At least we have a system implemented, and the core of the system in place. Now we just need some playmakers. B- It's not gimmicky, every team has the 4-2-5 in their playbook, it's a base nickel formation. It just has essentially a fast LB as a nickel back, instead of the third corner on the depth chart. But I was kidding anyway, it wouldn't work well in the NFL, it's not good at stopping runs up the gut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbackbrownie2 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 personally i dont think switching from 3-4 to 4-3 will do much. shaun rodgers seems to be a better fit for the 3-4. And drafting a guy like suh would only make rodgers (assuming he is healthy) that much better... But i will say the most frustrating thing i have seen all year on defense is how pathetic we are at defending screen plays. I don't know how many times the opposing QB will be in trouble, we have good coverage downfield, and then he dumps it off to a RB or FB for like a 20+ yard gain. We saw it twice last week against the chargers both that went for touchdowns. We shut that down we will have a lot more 3 and outs because we are getting decent pressure on the OBs..and if our offense has as much life as it did this past week we have a great shot at beating the steelers and effectively eliminating them from the playoff picture... lots of 'ifs' but i feel unusually confident... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 personally i dont think switching from 3-4 to 4-3 will do much. shaun rodgers seems to be a better fit for the 3-4. And drafting a guy like suh would only make rodgers (assuming he is healthy) that much better... But i will say the most frustrating thing i have seen all year on defense is how pathetic we are at defending screen plays. I don't know how many times the opposing QB will be in trouble, we have good coverage downfield, and then he dumps it off to a RB or FB for like a 20+ yard gain. We saw it twice last week against the chargers both that went for touchdowns. We shut that down we will have a lot more 3 and outs because we are getting decent pressure on the OBs..and if our offense has as much life as it did this past week we have a great shot at beating the steelers and effectively eliminating them from the playoff picture... lots of 'ifs' but i feel unusually confident... Our underneath coverage is terrible. It's all on the LB's, and they aren't doing anything. They can't recognize the pulling guards on a screen and get to the flats, they can't recognize a block-release route, they can't stick with the checkdowns, and they can't generate pressure. It's terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gips Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Ryan already adds a lot of 4-3 looks to his scheme or did before injury decimation..the 4-3 has many advantages over a poorly manned 3-4 like ours ,we lack the right LBs and safeties in particular for an effective 3-4..but i like ryans defense it just needs the right secondary and LB personnel ,which getting the right players for an effective 3-4 is not an easy task especially with so many teams going 3-4 these days.....just another reason to discuss changing to the 4-3 my own opinion is to go with whatever our personnel is best suited for which would currently be a 4-3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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