Weis to Cleveland, without Mangini, could be a possibility

[JoeSixPat]

things don't change in a single season, the man knows what he's doing.

 

I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)

 

In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.

 

None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.

 

Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.

 

That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.

 

I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.

 

[beefjerky]

that's because you've nitpicked all the things he's done wrong and haven't listed the things he's done right, such as being one of the least penalized teams in the NFL, last year we were probably one of the most penalized.

 

here is a post I quote from ATENEAR'S:

I agree. Mangini has cut 53 players, of which only 3 have been activated on another teams roster (see my post here). Gradkowski-Oak, Bret Lockett-NE, Phil Trautwein-Stl are the only three to make it on an active roster and are of no loss here. Gradkowski has seen a little playing time(my edit: he's doing good for the Raiders now), Lockett is a Db who has 5 tackles and a forced fumble, Trautwein hasn't played.

 

We are aligned perfectly for a complete rebuilding process, with 11 Draft picks stock-piled. Actually, the tearing down the team and getting ready for rebuild couldn't have been done much better at this point, IMO.

 

I'm still very much in support of Mangini ... only questioning the coaching on the offensive side of the ball, but realizing this team has very little talent to work with on either side.

[mopaji]

I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)

 

We got what we needed out of last years bad draft with the money we had to spend. He also started the day with 4 picks. He did excellent. He got a center that will see a few Pro Bowls before he's done, 1 WR in Mo Mass who is showing that although he's young and learning, seems to be getting open more often and is thinking 6pts whenever he gets the ball. Robo will be a solid #2 for years to come. Two young LBs who look like they can do this once they adjust. I say he did pretty well. Addressed needs with very little money. Lewis was trying to get out of town before he retired with a 1-15 team. Once he saw that the media saw him as a whiner, he retracted. Then, notice two weeks later he had concussion symptoms. Those symptoms are my word vs yours. No test can reveal them you just have to listen to the player and bench him.

 

 

In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.

None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.

 

Lets not kid ourselves, Lerner has no intention of hiring a GM to make decisions it will always be Mangini. Kokinis was fired to light a fire in the fanbase and since he was irrelavent, his position was expendable. That's it.

 

 

Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.

 

Pressured to find a way to put a bad Brady Quinn in while giving DA a fair shot is what delayed the decision. He knew who his guy was (DA) that's what took so long. Ownership wanted Brady and he needed to find a way to make it look fair. The short leash on Brady was a result of being forced to start him because TO's "intel leak". If he went with DA he would have looked indecisive and spiteful. If coach agreed with the Brady decision it would have been settled before the season. Of course that is all speculation but not even the dumbest human being would have handled it that way. It had to be a power struggle behind the scenes. Notice that every other decision has been concrete and resalute. Why would the QB decision be any different? Because one guy helped the owner, and one guy had the respect of his team. Hence, power struggle and delayed decision.

 

 

That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.

 

We'll see in Free agency who is scared to come here but up till now, he has gotten a few Jets guys to either sign here, or ask to be traded here. If the guy was all that bad, why would players with a choice choose to follow him to a bad team to rebuild?

 

I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.

 

 

Like it or not, these group of bad players are busting their asses for him. And the guys that aren't Romeo's guys stand behind him all the way. I mean, they poured gatorade over their coach after a 6-3 Bills game. Do you really think that if he were the tyrant the media makes him out to be they would bother with that? Now, he's stroking the fragile ego's of the players after a SD game in which we lost. Its apparent that the players and the coach are in this together. The results aren't there but look at the holes on the roster. QB, RB, WR, CB, OLB those are some big holes and will equal more losses than wins everytime. He needs two more years, the we can start chanting for Cowher.

[JoeSixPat]

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong on these.

 

I do think that you may be right that Lerner will insist on Mangini staying. He's got far too much ego himself riding on that choice now. Even if Mangini makes his decisions throwing darts against a wall he could restore this team to mediocrity and at least make Lerner feel a bit better.

 

Mediocrity isn't what I think most fans want however (though it would be a welcome change to this season)

 

Lerner's said the "right" thing noting that he knows he needs a football "czar". Not everyone believes the Czar will be barred from making important decisions like, oh, who the coach is, but I think you could be right.

 

If Lerner really wants the "best" GM out there who doesn't stipulate that choosing the coach is his decision, I'd submit that's not the best GM available... far from it in fact.

 

If Mangini does get the ax I think you'll hear a bit more about how players truly did perceive him. There's certainly some truth that there were plenty of players in NY who liked Mangini... but then again there were plenty of players in NY who were also able to push Mangini around and demand new contracts or trades, and while knowing that they can manipulate their coach might make him popular with the players, that's not necessarily a good thing for the team either.

 

But beyond player perceptions I think the best you can say is that playcalling has been bad, player personnel decisions have been questionable to bad (and assessments of drafts need to wait multiple years) front office decisions have been bad, and player relations between the coach and players has been questionable to bad. I don't think anyone can look at the evidence of this past year and suggest that any of these realms fall in the good to excellent category.

 

Questionable/Time will Tell is the best I think anyone can say.

 

And if a "true" GM is selected with actual powers of a GM, I'd have to think that they might appreciate a fresh start. If you want to give Mangini some credit for completely tearing down what is here to allow for a fresh start, I think that's fair - but I don't think you'd be losing too much of the "progress" that's been made this season by bringing in a new coach next year. Whether Lerner's ego will allow for that is another matter.

[mopaji]

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong on these.

 

I do think that you may be right that Lerner will insist on Mangini staying. He's got far too much ego himself riding on that choice now. Even if Mangini makes his decisions throwing darts against a wall he could restore this team to mediocrity and at least make Lerner feel a bit better.

 

Mediocrity isn't what I think most fans want however (though it would be a welcome change to this season)

 

Lerner's said the "right" thing noting that he knows he needs a football "czar". Not everyone believes the Czar will be barred from making important decisions like, oh, who the coach is, but I think you could be right.

 

If Lerner really wants the "best" GM out there who doesn't stipulate that choosing the coach is his decision, I'd submit that's not the best GM available... far from it in fact.

 

If Mangini does get the ax I think you'll hear a bit more about how players truly did perceive him. There's certainly some truth that there were plenty of players in NY who liked Mangini... but then again there were plenty of players in NY who were also able to push Mangini around and demand new contracts or trades, and while knowing that they can manipulate their coach might make him popular with the players, that's not necessarily a good thing for the team either.

 

But beyond player perceptions I think the best you can say is that playcalling has been bad, player personnel decisions have been questionable to bad (and assessments of drafts need to wait multiple years) front office decisions have been bad, and player relations between the coach and players has been questionable to bad. I don't think anyone can look at the evidence of this past year and suggest that any of these realms fall in the good to excellent category.

 

Questionable/Time will Tell is the best I think anyone can say.

 

And if a "true" GM is selected with actual powers of a GM, I'd have to think that they might appreciate a fresh start. If you want to give Mangini some credit for completely tearing down what is here to allow for a fresh start, I think that's fair - but I don't think you'd be losing too much of the "progress" that's been made this season by bringing in a new coach next year. Whether Lerner's ego will allow for that is another matter.

 

 

Very good points but I strongly disagree with bringing somebody else in this soon. Tear downs aren't a matter of cutting random guys or flat out dead weight. They are a lot of times very strategic moves based on next years draft, free agents, cap room, coaching strengths, roster depth, roster age, roster experience, and team philosophy and scheme. Moves now are made for the year to come. If you bring in a new guy with a new philosophy and scheme, he's gonna want to go his own direction when the roster has already been set up to go another direction. And since we've been back in 99, coaches try and fix the team in one year and that is a hit or miss strategy. So far, we'ver missed. And that is what sets franchises back 3-5 years. Mangini seems to have the ability and the patience to build for the long-term and anyone who loves the Browns should be excited about that approach. Forget that he has an ego, what coach doesn't. Forget that he practices in full pads more often than not, that's how you change the culture. And forget that he doesn't answer questions clearly, most coaches don't. All I care about is that somebody with experince is trying to build a consistant winner and I have a feeling in a few years fans will be very happy with where we are. If not, let him go and bring in somebody else but at least after a few years Mangini will have this team stable and back in order. I think 2007 gave fans the wrong idea about what this team has been. Its been filled with bad players since 1999 and if it weren't for DA, Braylon, Jamal, and KII playing out of their minds in 07, we were a 4-12 team that year also. The talent isn't here, give the guy a few years to fix it. If not then, throw him out.

[Dawgdamit]

Maybe the VP/GM has been picked but can't be anounced until after thier season. These moves like talking to Wies is his suggestion to Lerner and Bernie, There will be competition for Wies, So waiting may make the Browns lose the opportunity to hire Wies.

[Pumpkin Eater]

Blah blah blah blah blah.... I hate Mangini because he exposed my patriots as the cheaters they are blah blah blah....

 

 

You are irrelevant.

[JoeSixPat]

Very good points but I strongly disagree with bringing somebody else in this soon. Tear downs aren't a matter of cutting random guys or flat out dead weight. They are a lot of times very strategic moves based on next years draft, free agents, cap room, coaching strengths, roster depth, roster age, roster experience, and team philosophy and scheme. Moves now are made for the year to come. If you bring in a new guy with a new philosophy and scheme, he's gonna want to go his own direction when the roster has already been set up to go another direction. And since we've been back in 99, coaches try and fix the team in one year and that is a hit or miss strategy. So far, we'ver missed. And that is what sets franchises back 3-5 years. Mangini seems to have the ability and the patience to build for the long-term and anyone who loves the Browns should be excited about that approach. Forget that he has an ego, what coach doesn't. Forget that he practices in full pads more often than not, that's how you change the culture. And forget that he doesn't answer questions clearly, most coaches don't. All I care about is that somebody with experince is trying to build a consistant winner and I have a feeling in a few years fans will be very happy with where we are. If not, let him go and bring in somebody else but at least after a few years Mangini will have this team stable and back in order. I think 2007 gave fans the wrong idea about what this team has been. Its been filled with bad players since 1999 and if it weren't for DA, Braylon, Jamal, and KII playing out of their minds in 07, we were a 4-12 team that year also. The talent isn't here, give the guy a few years to fix it. If not then, throw him out.

 

If you buy into the notion that Mangini's main task this season was to strategically disassemble the team, then while he's certainly done the next coach a favor, I'm not sure he's done much to move the team forward in such a way that a new coach would find himself in a major strategic disadvantage as a result.

 

The new coach may have chosen to disassemble one part of the team instead of another, but with this team the "strategic disassemble" was more or less across the board.

 

For what it's worth Florio at NBC's PFT says he's hearing that a change at Head Coach is in the cards

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/...ng-a-hire-soon/

 

[NW Ohio Brownie]

I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)

 

In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.

 

None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.

 

Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.

 

That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.

 

I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.

 

Joe,

 

You really need to stop reading PFT. Seriously, dude. Half the sh*t you're spouting here is verbatim from that muck, including your "Raiders East" shout-out.

 

Fact: Mangini has salvaged our impending salary cap issues

Fact: Mangini has compiled eleven draft picks for April

Fact: Mangini's team is one of the least penalized teams in the NFL, a marked improvement from last year's Browns

Fact: Braylon Edwards has not improved since moving to New York

Fact: The 1-10 Browns did not quit when down 20 to a very good SD team Sunday

Fact: Several players testified to the media that Mangini's practices were just as short as Crennel's practices and not as hard

Fact: Personnel decisions such as the additions of Roth, Stuckey, and Trusnik.

Fact: Personnel decisions such as the removal of me-first guys Shaun Smith, Braylon Edwards, and Kellen Winslow.

Fact: Mangini has an offense with young players at the core (Quinn, Thomas, Harrison, Robiskie, Stuckey, Massaquoi, Mack), four of whom he added just this year

Fact: A consistent approach from week to week that is paying off with the team's level of competitiveness despite a terrible record

 

And here's my two cents: STFU about free agents not coming here already. When the hell have the Cleveland Browns EVER brought in the best free agents? Anybody remotely good either gets hurt (Bentley, Joe J), is a selfish overpaid POS (Rison), or runs people down with their SUV (Stallworth). I've got a news flash for ya JoeSixPat: We don't give a FU*K about free agency. It's all about the draft and you should know that already.

[JoeSixPat]

Joe,

 

You really need to stop reading PFT. Seriously, dude. Half the sh*t you're spouting here is verbatim from that muck, including your "Raiders East" shout-out.

 

Fact: Mangini has salvaged our impending salary cap issues

Fact: Mangini has compiled eleven draft picks for April

Fact: Mangini's team is one of the least penalized teams in the NFL, a marked improvement from last year's Browns

Fact: Braylon Edwards has not improved since moving to New York

Fact: The 1-10 Browns did not quit when down 20 to a very good SD team Sunday

Fact: Several players testified to the media that Mangini's practices were just as short as Crennel's practices and not as hard

Fact: Personnel decisions such as the additions of Roth, Stuckey, and Trusnik.

Fact: Personnel decisions such as the removal of me-first guys Shaun Smith, Braylon Edwards, and Kellen Winslow.

Fact: Mangini has an offense with young players at the core (Quinn, Thomas, Harrison, Robiskie, Stuckey, Massaquoi, Mack), four of whom he added just this year

Fact: A consistent approach from week to week that is paying off with the team's level of competitiveness despite a terrible record

 

And here's my two cents: STFU about free agents not coming here already. When the hell have the Cleveland Browns EVER brought in the best free agents? Anybody remotely good either gets hurt (Bentley, Joe J), is a selfish overpaid POS (Rison), or runs people down with their SUV (Stallworth). I've got a news flash for ya JoeSixPat: We don't give a FU*K about free agency. It's all about the draft and you should know that already.

 

Yes - I've seen that lots of Cleveland fans seem to think you can ignore free agency and build a team through the draft. And I agree, over about 5-7 years you can do that if you draft very very well, since many players need a few years to develop. Which is why most teams recognize the need to do both.

 

Free agents don't want to play for the Raiders either. Has that hurt them? I guess most Cleveland fans would say "Hell no". I'd disagree.

 

I'm never sure what people mean by the fact that someone has "solved the salary cap" problem. By definition no team can exceed the salary cap. Their alternative is to cut expensive players, trying to keep as many of the good ones as possible. That's not rocket science. Did Cleveland fans expect that Mangini would exceed the salary cap? What are you actually giving him credit for? I could cut players too if forced to - that doesn't make me a good coach.

 

With Cleveland one needs to be wary of celebrating the fact that a mediocre player was drafted or signed and displaced a very bad veteran. All these guys are good, no doubt... good enough to win one game against the Bills by a score of 6-3 at last count. I'm not saying they can't improve - but the evidence we've seen is that they are what their record says they are, as Bill Parcells used to say... and for all the coaching decisions, schemes, playcaling, drafting and free agent moves, Mangini has inspired this team to win a grand total of one game.

 

[mopaji]

If you buy into the notion that Mangini's main task this season was to strategically disassemble the team, then while he's certainly done the next coach a favor, I'm not sure he's done much to move the team forward in such a way that a new coach would find himself in a major strategic disadvantage as a result.

 

The new coach may have chosen to disassemble one part of the team instead of another, but with this team the "strategic disassemble" was more or less across the board.

 

For what it's worth Florio at NBC's PFT says he's hearing that a change at Head Coach is in the cards

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/...ng-a-hire-soon/

 

Florio is a douche. The only reason anybody knows his name is because he prints the most rediculous opinions and manufactures "sources" out of his own gut. When he speaks, cover your ears.

 

Back to the point. I just think that the two most important things successful teams in the league have in common is patience and consistancy. NOBODY has ever built a winning franchise by changing coaches every two years. That has never been a winning formula. And if a new guy comes in here and starts drafting "sexy" picks and signing 32 year old former Pro Bowlers, then in two years we'll be right back where here having TV blackouts. Mangini is building for the future and I applaud his patience and dknowledge of the situation. We need to be patient and understand the situation. This formula works and I think he and Lerner know that. However, if we only win 5 games next year, he's gone. But, we will have a solid foundation of players and a new culture in place by then. And that is huge.

 

 

I just read that article and I had to go and take a shower afterwards. He didn't mention any source for his statement that Mangini is gone after this year. In fact, he said that the Browns aren't giving any type of clues as to what they are doing. So again, its all speculation. He is assuming that a football czar will be firing Mangini which is not happening. The reason nobody has been hired is because Lerner intends on letting Mangini have full control and candidates aren't interested in just being a figurehead with no voice. That too is speculation but it makes a lot more sense than firing a good coach after one year in a rebuilding process.

[NW Ohio Brownie]

Yes - I've seen that lots of Cleveland fans seem to think you can ignore free agency and build a team through the draft. And I agree, over about 5-7 years you can do that if you draft very very well, since many players need a few years to develop. Which is why most teams recognize the need to do both.

 

Free agency addition is important in two situations: 1) When you don't have a viable QB 2) When you need to pursue a high-priced free agent to fill that one/two needs on a good team. Right now, the Browns aren't in that situation. So their FA pick-ups right now are middling players. Both these situations are why someone like Minnesota pursues Brett Favre.

 

Free agents don't want to play for the Raiders either. Has that hurt them? I guess most Cleveland fans would say "Hell no". I'd disagree.

 

Sure, it's hurt them, but not as much as drafting poorly as the Browns have done. Look at Washington. They just keep throwing money at their problems instead of drafting smart. They're stuck in a perpetual state of mediocrity.

 

I'm never sure what people mean by the fact that someone has "solved the salary cap" problem. By definition no team can exceed the salary cap. Their alternative is to cut expensive players, trying to keep as many of the good ones as possible. That's not rocket science. Did Cleveland fans expect that Mangini would exceed the salary cap? What are you actually giving him credit for? I could cut players too if forced to - that doesn't make me a good coach.

 

Clearing cap space allows us to pay our #1 draft pick as well as our other picks AND money left over to pick up a few free agents, you dolt. That's what he's getting credit for, stupid. Mangini has cut/traded the expensive players who were me-first (Smith, Edwards, Winslow) or just plain sucked (Jones, Davis, Shaffer).

 

With Cleveland one needs to be wary of celebrating the fact that a mediocre player was drafted or signed and displaced a very bad veteran. All these guys are good, no doubt... good enough to win one game against the Bills by a score of 6-3 at last count. I'm not saying they can't improve - but the evidence we've seen is that they are what their record says they are, as Bill Parcells used to say... and for all the coaching decisions, schemes, playcaling, drafting and free agent moves, Mangini has inspired this team to win a grand total of one game.

 

Yep, one game. So let's fire Spagnuolo and Morris, too. Let's fire all the guys in this league that are trying to make chicken salad out of chickensh*t. And continue to ignore those coaches who have had underachieving teams this year: Rex Ryan, John Harbaugh, Gary Kubiak, etc. These are the guys who've done a piss poor job, in my estimation.

 

You have to understand something here, Joe. This is not a quick-fix situation in Cleveland. Mangini is not making quick-fix moves. He's making long-term fix moves: salary cap, more picks, change of culture, etc. But go ahead and continue to read PFT and look at the W-L record if it makes you happy.