Will we go to WCO and a 4-3 Defense under Holmgren?

[ATENEARS]

Brady Quinn seems to fit the West Coast Offense (WCO), yet Holmgren had a cannon arm QB in Brett Farve so is Anderson still in the picture?

 

I believe Holmgren favors a 4-3 defense, and frankly I think our personnel has been better suited for that. Will we change back?

 

Does Holmgren sit back and let his head coach decide the offensive and defensive scheme?

 

What happens to the Jim Browns and Bernie Kosars that are on staff?

 

These are many of the questions left unanswered on tonights 'Browns Red Zone'.

 

... the draft? Offense or defense?

 

Wow, there will be NO off-season around here this year.

[Gips]

Brady Quinn seems to fit the West Coast Offense (WCO), yet Holmgren has a cannon arm QB in Brett Farve so is Anderson still in the picture?

 

I believe Holmgren favors a 4-3 defense, and frankly I think our personnel has been better suited for that. Will we change back?

 

Does Holmgren sit back and let his head coach decide the offensive and defensive scheme?

 

What happens to the Jim Browns and Bernie Kosars that are on staff?

 

These are many of the questions left unanswered on tonights 'Browns Red Zone'.

 

... the draft? Offense or defense?

 

Wow, there will be NO off-season around here this year.

 

These are all important questions that will be answered over time ,some to our liking and some probably not ,right now we can only guess ,starting with rather mangini stays or not because we cant really guess most of these without knowing who the coach is...for all we know holmgren may bump mangini up to GM and make dumbo the HC...hehehehehe...

 

Brown and kosar are lerners advisers i would think that falls exclusively under randys discretion..

I hope we do and i suspect we will switch back to a 4-3 we are geared and ready from day 1...

[Thaak]

only problem I have with switching to a 4-3, is that we've spent 5 years trying to build a 3-4. I'm not sure we are as primed and ready as you all think to have a 4-3.

[ATENEARS]

only problem I have with switching to a 4-3, is that we've spent 5 years trying to build a 3-4. I'm not sure we are as primed and ready as you all think to have a 4-3.

 

I hear ya ... for the past few years we had 4-3 personnel while trying to operate a 3-4, but I'm not so sure now. I like Mangini's idea of a LB better than Crennel bringing in so-called 'specialist' (such as Wimbley, hall, etc..).

 

Although we still have guys like Corey Williams who have showed us what they can do from the inside. Frankly, with where we are now, I wouldn't mind seeing a little hybrid of both schemes.

[Earl34]

I think that the only part of this defense that isn't "3-4" in terms of build is the CB position but I'm not so sure they'd be good in a 4-3 either. You have a stud 0-technique in Rogers and several guys who fit the 5-technique, 2-gap style.

 

The nature of the defense will depend on whether he keeps Mangini or not.

 

As for the WCO, I see a lot of WCO elements in what they're trying to do now but I think Holmgren's input or that of a Holmgren guy could take that to another level.

[Eastlakeian]

I say we go WCO for sure as far a Mangini he could keep him and the 3-4 like Tomlin in Pittsburgh he's a 4-3 defensive coach. With more teams going 3-4 Holgrem might be open to it. I guess it will depend on his evaluation of the players.

[Thaak]

I hear ya ... for the past few years we had 4-3 personnel while trying to operate a 3-4, but I'm not so sure now. I like Mangini's idea of a LB better than Crennel bringing in so-called 'specialist' (such as Wimbley, hall, etc..).

 

Although we still have guys like Corey Williams who have showed us what they can do from the inside. Frankly, with where we are now, I wouldn't mind seeing a little hybrid of both schemes.

 

although I suppose it will be easier to switch from the 3-4 to the 4-3 than the other way around. More players fit the 4-3 scheme than the 3-4. The 3-4 seems to need all these "hybrid" players that the 4-3 doesn't. When a 3-4 works, it really works, but when it doesn't quite work, it often is really bad. I'm tired of the feast or famine on D and would really like a nice solid defense. If switching to a 4-3 does that, I'm all for it.

 

But questions would be:

 

Who's our Singletary? Does DJack or Bowens do better as the sole MLB, or do they falter cause they have to cover more field than in the 3-4 and don't have the top end speed?

 

Who's our Freeney? Does Wimbley do better as a 4-3 DE where he won't be running into as many double teams? Can you imagine a Coleman/Robaire Smith - Rogers - Williams - Wimbley line in the 4-3? That might be quite sick!

 

I always got the impression that with a 4-3, you needed better cover corners than in a 3-4, whereas the 3-4 required a stone cold killer at safety. I really like though how Ryan has been doing a yoemans job at covering our D's weaknesses with exotic looks, crazy blitzes, and lots of man coverage. For whatever reason, we have yet to have a good cover safety or LB, and they get lost big time in any zone D we try to run.

 

But then McDonald sucks as a man cover corner, so not sure what to do there.

 

My thoughts, since we won't be picking #1, #2, or #3 now, is that we pick up the best RT or CB that we can get at whatever spot we draft (even if we have to trade down based on perceived value.)

 

Wild Dream Trade Scenario: Romo and Cowboy's #1 for Quinn and Browns #1.

[Alo]

Who's our Singletary? Does DJack or Bowens do better as the sole MLB, or do they falter cause they have to cover more field than in the 3-4 and don't have the top end speed?

I don't think Bowens is athletic enough to play any of the linebacker spots in a 4-3. If we switch base defenses, he could be on the outs: he wouldn't be of much use on D and likely would be disgruntled (he's one of Mangini's biggest defenders).

 

D'Qwell could play MLB or the weakside, though it'd be interesting to see if his lack of speed would prevent him from being an impact player. And we'd need to add two starting linebackers: Maiava could play on the weakside, but I don't think you can rely on him to start.

 

Who's our Freeney? Does Wimbley do better as a 4-3 DE where he won't be running into as many double teams? Can you imagine a Coleman/Robaire Smith - Rogers - Williams - Wimbley line in the 4-3? That might be quite sick!

Both Wimbley and Roth seem like better fits for a 3-4. You could play Wimbley at RE, but you'll need to find someone for the other end spot. Neither Coleman or Smith is athletic or explosive enough an edge threat to do well at LE. Coleman in particular would be a questionable fit in a 4-3; he's played two gap end his entire pro career, and he lacks the explosion to be much of a playmaker in a one gap 4-3 scheme.

 

At this point, your starting front seven probably would look something like this:

 

RE: K. Wimbley

DT: S. Rogers or C. Williams

NT: S. Rogers or A. Rubin

LE: New Guy, maybe M. Roth

 

WLB: New Guy, maybe K. Maiava

MLB: D. Jackson

SLB: New Guy

 

So you'd need to spend a lot and use a lot of picks to transition to an effective 4-3.

[JoeSixPat]

Brady Quinn seems to fit the West Coast Offense (WCO), yet Holmgren had a cannon arm QB in Brett Farve so is Anderson still in the picture?

 

I believe Holmgren favors a 4-3 defense, and frankly I think our personnel has been better suited for that. Will we change back?

 

Does Holmgren sit back and let his head coach decide the offensive and defensive scheme?

 

What happens to the Jim Browns and Bernie Kosars that are on staff?

 

These are many of the questions left unanswered on tonights 'Browns Red Zone'.

 

... the draft? Offense or defense?

 

Wow, there will be NO off-season around here this year.

 

Accuracy is the most important thing for a WC offense QB. Whether they've got the arm for the long ball or only mid to short, accuracy is vital. I'm not sure that's Quinn.

 

On Defense all coaches need to be adaptable depending on the pieces they have and who is available. Expect a combo with 3-4 and 4-3 depending on how he assesses the skilll level.

 

I think it's a given that Holmgren wants his own people to implement HIS overall schemes. And Holmgren wants 100% of the credit for turning this franchise around. He's going to bring in his own people and his own coach.

[CribbsWalker]

Brady Quinn seems to fit the West Coast Offense (WCO), yet Holmgren had a cannon arm QB in Brett Farve so is Anderson still in the picture?

 

I believe Holmgren favors a 4-3 defense, and frankly I think our personnel has been better suited for that. Will we change back?

 

Does Holmgren sit back and let his head coach decide the offensive and defensive scheme?

 

What happens to the Jim Browns and Bernie Kosars that are on staff?

 

These are many of the questions left unanswered on tonights 'Browns Red Zone'.

 

... the draft? Offense or defense?

 

Wow, there will be NO off-season around here this year.

 

 

Article on this exact Topic

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/na...en-hired-122109

 

"With the news of Mike Holmgren agreeing to become the Cleveland Browns’ president Monday, it's time to begin piecing together what the team will look like in 2010.

 

Besides determining a coaching staff and front office, one of the first questions is if Cleveland will keep its 3-4 defense.

 

The Browns have been a 3-4 team since Phil Savage and Romeo Crennel took over in 2005. The trend continued as current Browns coach Eric Mangini was hired this year. That's five consecutive drafts and free-agency periods dedicated to adding 3-4 personnel.

 

But looking back at Holmgren-coached teams with the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, those clubs ran a 4-3 scheme and had a lot of team success.

 

So what happens to a player like Kamerion Wimbley, for instance? Can Wimbley put his hand down in the pros and be a full-time defense end, similar to what he did at Florida State? Or is he a 4-3 linebacker in the NFL?

 

But other key players like Shaun Rogers would not face nearly as many double teams going from nose tackle to one of two defensive tackles. "Big Baby" and other defensive linemen, such as Corey Williams, would probably welcome the move.

 

This will be something to closely monitor as it will impact Cleveland's draft plans and free agency.

 

An educated guess is Holmgren, who has complete control of the team, will move Cleveland to a 4-3 defense in 2010. His previous teams didn't run a 3-4 defense. So how could Holmgren feel comfortable picking the right players for that scheme?"

 

 

Oh, and hi all... long time ninja, decided to sign up!

[ballpeen]

I think Brown and Kosar are there more on the whim of Lerner, so I don't see much changing.

 

As to the other questions, we'll see....but I do think he has to allow the coach some ability to pick his staff.

 

I hope Holmgrens role isn't to micro-manage. I doubt that will work.

[ATENEARS]

Article on this exact Topic

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/na...en-hired-122109

 

"With the news of Mike Holmgren agreeing to become the Cleveland Browns’ president Monday, it's time to begin piecing together what the team will look like in 2010.

 

Besides determining a coaching staff and front office, one of the first questions is if Cleveland will keep its 3-4 defense.

 

The Browns have been a 3-4 team since Phil Savage and Romeo Crennel took over in 2005. The trend continued as current Browns coach Eric Mangini was hired this year. That's five consecutive drafts and free-agency periods dedicated to adding 3-4 personnel.

 

But looking back at Holmgren-coached teams with the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, those clubs ran a 4-3 scheme and had a lot of team success.

 

So what happens to a player like Kamerion Wimbley, for instance? Can Wimbley put his hand down in the pros and be a full-time defense end, similar to what he did at Florida State? Or is he a 4-3 linebacker in the NFL?

 

But other key players like Shaun Rogers would not face nearly as many double teams going from nose tackle to one of two defensive tackles. "Big Baby" and other defensive linemen, such as Corey Williams, would probably welcome the move.

 

This will be something to closely monitor as it will impact Cleveland's draft plans and free agency.

 

An educated guess is Holmgren, who has complete control of the team, will move Cleveland to a 4-3 defense in 2010. His previous teams didn't run a 3-4 defense. So how could Holmgren feel comfortable picking the right players for that scheme?"

 

 

Oh, and hi all... long time ninja, decided to sign up!

 

First of all, glad that you signed up and decided to participate. Secondly, I based this thread off of the Browns Red Zone show, which sounds like this ESPN article did as well. Good stuff though, just glad we beat ESPN in reporting it.

 

We've spent 5 drafts preparing for the 3-4, but did we really succeed?

 

[mopaji]

I think people are confused about what Holmgren's role with this team is. All he is going to be doing is run the organization for Lerner so he can go golfing in Dubai and collect tons of money. He is not going to be involved in scheme and will probably not be too involved in personel. He'll be in charge of employees but not scheme or rosters. He was hired to be Randy Lerner so Randy Lerner doesn't have to be. He'll make decisions like which light bulbs to use in the lobby and what stadium upgrades should be made. He'll hire a GM or appoint one that he can "help out" but he will not have any say over scheme or philosophy. He got himself a cake job and he got it because if Lerner is going to trust somebody to run his business, it should be a guy with 25 years experience in the league. Mangini and Ryan will still be making decisions on schemes, personel, philosophy, and schedules. Holmgren will be collecting tons of cash and basically be Randy Lerner but actually show up at practices and games. Asking things like "How's Veikune coming along in this 3-4? Good for him. Is he still looking at property in Cape Cod? I know a good realtor out that way".

 

 

[ATENEARS]

I think people are confused about what Holmgren's role with this team is. All he is going to be doing is run the organization for Lerner so he can go golfing in Dubai and collect tons of money. He is not going to be involved in scheme and will probably not be too involved in personel. He'll be in charge of employees but not scheme or rosters. He was hired to be Randy Lerner so Randy Lerner doesn't have to be. He'll make decisions like which light bulbs to use in the lobby and what stadium upgrades should be made. He'll hire a GM or appoint one that he can "help out" but he will not have any say over scheme or philosophy. He got himself a cake job and he got it because if Lerner is going to trust somebody to run his business, it should be a guy with 25 years experience in the league. Mangini and Ryan will still be making decisions on schemes, personel, philosophy, and schedules. Holmgren will be collecting tons of cash and basically be Randy Lerner but actually show up at practices and games. Asking things like "How's Veikune coming along in this 3-4? Good for him. Is he still looking at property in Cape Cod? I know a good realtor out that way".

 

LOL ... umm, I don't think that we are that confused. Have you ever coached? It's not very easy to stay a part of the game without viewing it from a coaches perspective once in that field.

[mopaji]

First of all, glad that you signed up and decided to participate. Secondly, I based this thread off of the Browns Red Zone show, which sounds like this ESPN article did as well. Good stuff though, just glad we beat ESPN in reporting it.

 

We've spent 5 drafts preparing for the 3-4, but did we really succeed?

 

 

Not really but we have only had a qualified person in one of those drafts. That was 2009. The scheme works if its run correctly and staffed with the correct players. We have to give these young LBs until next year to see how they will turn out. Neither of them is playing instinctual football yet but you can see the ability is there. Once they have this scheme all worked out and they can play off instinct and reaction, they shoud be just fine if not excellent. The D-line has actually looked pretty solid this year and that goes a long way in a 3-4. The DBs absalutely need upraded and so I hope to get a guy like Berry who can come in and change the entire attitude of the defense. Offenses hate a guy who can cover that much field and that can make every play. Berry would help Elam out trmendously so he doesn't have to baby-sit Wright and McDonald all day. We need to have a physical defensive backfield again a-la Dixon, Minnifield, and Wright. When was the last time you saw Wright or McDonald bump anybody at the line? That's why we are getting chewed up on defense. WRs are able to run their routes with very little resistance at all and it makes pass rushing difficult and causes LBs to pay attention to intermediate routes rather than the backfield. The only time the DBs showed up was against Pittsburgh (thank you wind) and you saw the results. The LBs were able to concentrate on the backfield and get A LOT of stats. And Pitts, running game was non-existent. I'm sure Mangini and Ryan were aware of the weather and figured if they were going to man-up and blitz, that that was the time to do it. You saw what this Defense can do whe the DBs are shutting people down. Don't lose faith in this scheme, it works and can work once we can man up and play physical on receivers.

[mopaji]

LOL ... umm, I don't think that we are that confused. Have you ever coached? It's not very easy to stay a part of the game without viewing it from a coaches perspective once in that field.

 

 

I know, I get that and he will forever look at the game differently but he wasn't brought in to make decisions on schemes or gameplans. He's here to work in an office. Of course he will enjoy watching the game and have some opinions but he's an office worker and won't have a direct impact on what happens on the field. I'm happy he's here only because it means that somebody at the top finally knows the game and the business. Mike didn't inherit a company, he's a football guy who worked his way up. You gotta love that. Just don't expect him to effect what happens on the field too much. Can you name, without googling, any other President of football operations in the league? Because they are always behind the scenes making sure the ground crew gets the field painted and the Weight room has all of the finast equipment for the players. They don't call plays or sit in on coaches meetings inquiring about the gameplan. He will be a great rescource for Mangini but he won't have say over what goes on on the field. What makes anybody think he will?

[NW Ohio Brownie]

I hope Mangini stays for another reason: I will enjoy watching the media.

 

Here's our local media who dis everything Mangini does, yet it's apparent they are ready to give Holmgren plenty of rope. If Mangini stays, it will be funny to watch how they approach every move this organization makes. Their heads might explode, not knowing how to spin it.

 

As far as your questions, Stan, they are good ones and just as important. For once, I agree with Grossi. Let the coaches coach. We should not run a 4-3 or WCO because Holmgren wants that. We would only become the Raiders in that instance. We should do what ever the coach wants to do. He's cooking the food, let Holmgren shop for the groceries. I hope it's Mangini cooking the food because right now he's making a mighty mean sh*tburger for Grossi, Mary Kay and the rest of the Plain Dealer goof troop (not you, Mr. Pluto).

 

 

[Thaak]

I think people are confused about what Holmgren's role with this team is. All he is going to be doing is run the organization for Lerner so he can go golfing in Dubai and collect tons of money. He is not going to be involved in scheme and will probably not be too involved in personel. He'll be in charge of employees but not scheme or rosters. He was hired to be Randy Lerner so Randy Lerner doesn't have to be. He'll make decisions like which light bulbs to use in the lobby and what stadium upgrades should be made. He'll hire a GM or appoint one that he can "help out" but he will not have any say over scheme or philosophy. He got himself a cake job and he got it because if Lerner is going to trust somebody to run his business, it should be a guy with 25 years experience in the league. Mangini and Ryan will still be making decisions on schemes, personel, philosophy, and schedules. Holmgren will be collecting tons of cash and basically be Randy Lerner but actually show up at practices and games. Asking things like "How's Veikune coming along in this 3-4? Good for him. Is he still looking at property in Cape Cod? I know a good realtor out that way".

 

Actually, I think you are confused. I don't care how the team, Lerner, or Holmgren officially define his role as President of the club, he will have a hand in the draft room. Count on it.

[mopaji]

I hope Mangini stays for another reason: I will enjoy watching the media.

 

Here's our local media who dis everything Mangini does, yet it's apparent they are ready to give Holmgren plenty of rope. If Mangini stays, it will be funny to watch how they approach every move this organization makes. Their heads might explode, not knowing how to spin it.

 

 

They're pathetic aren't they? They always start out supportive so they can say they were behind im from the start and its his fault they're bashing him. Truth is, the media has a false sense of power in this town and when any one of their subjects dismisses their "power" they go on the attack and won't stop. I know they say they didn't run BB out of town and the media wasn't mentioned as a cause in his termination but I happen to know that they take some pride in his dismissal. They don't like it when somebody doesn't cooperate and Mangini's "open door policy except for the media" approach is killing them. They would rather be 0-16 and have unlimited acces to the team than be 16-0 with no information.

[Chip Banks]

Brady Quinn seems to fit the West Coast Offense (WCO), yet Holmgren had a cannon arm QB in Brett Farve so is Anderson still in the picture?

 

In some ways, yes. He's mobile. But a WCO QB has to be deadly accurate. Quinn's lack of accuracy has been scary at times. Holmgren is going to want to put his stamp on this team right away. Colt McCoy in round 2 with Quinn or a vet with a one-year bridge.

 

I believe Holmgren favors a 4-3 defense, and frankly I think our personnel has been better suited for that. Will we change back?

 

Why do you think this? Okay, the obvious is C. Williams and S. Rogers at D tackles with some depth behind them. Who are our ends? I'm not as high as many on Jackson, but he has less chance of being an effective 4-3 MLB than a 3-4 linebacker. Roth, Trusnik, Wimbley, Veikune, Bernard are all 3-4 linebackers. DE tweeners. The secondary needs a stud corner and a stud safety regardless. WIth a 4-3, I see us needing to add starting DEs and basically starting over at LBer, while with a 3-4 I'm starting to think we need one impact MLB. I think with the emergence of Rubin, we can probably get by with our line in a 3-4 scheme. That leaves us with the job of finding a Safety (Berry/Mays), DB (Haden/Robinson) or ILB (Spikes/Johnson). If we concentrated on D in the draft, I think we could fill two of these three needs with our first 2 picks.

 

Does Holmgren sit back and let his head coach decide the offensive and defensive scheme?

 

Don't see it. He's pulling down 10 million a year to lend his expertise. That's in the WCO.

 

What happens to the Jim Browns and Bernie Kosars that are on staff?

 

Brown is a player resource. Holgren is smart to keep him. BK? I think Lerner is trying to help him out and BK has some potential as a PR asset.

 

 

 

[kshutchins]

They're pathetic aren't they? They always start out supportive so they can say they were behind im from the start and its his fault they're bashing him. Truth is, the media has a false sense of power in this town and when any one of their subjects dismisses their "power" they go on the attack and won't stop. I know they say they didn't run BB out of town and the media wasn't mentioned as a cause in his termination but I happen to know that they take some pride in his dismissal. They don't like it when somebody doesn't cooperate and Mangini's "open door policy except for the media" approach is killing them. They would rather be 0-16 and have unlimited access to the team than be 16-0 with no information.

 

I appreciate that their jobs are more difficult without unlimited access but ... I don't really care. We all seem to come up with enough to write about the team without ANY access and we're not paid for doing it.