Mike Holmgren's first challenge? Is Eric Mangini the right choice on the sidelines

[peterbell]

Mike Holmgren's first challenge? Is Eric Mangini the right choice on the sidelines: Bud Shaw

By Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer

December 22, 2009, 1:14AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Now that Mike Holmgren has signed up in Berea, his checklist of things to consider in reshaping the Browns should start with Eric Mangini's role in the George Kokinis fiasco -- not Mangini's part in a narrow win over a bad Kansas City team. If you think beating the Chiefs was more proof the Browns are trying to save the job of the head coach or finally buying into his program -- really now, give it some more thought. Lending legitimacy to that point in the wake of great success in the running game and on special teams requires you to consider, then, that the porous defense was trying to send the message that it wanted Romeo Crennel reinstated.

 

David Bowens, a Mangini guy who had every reason to run with the notion that the team is suddenly playing to spare their head coach, rejected it instead.

 

 

A couple of wins at the end of a miserable season can't be reason enough to keep Eric Mangini, and Mike Holmgren should know that, says Bud Shaw."I don't know if it's fair to say that," Bowens told reporters after Sunday's game. "I just think we're tired of losing. To keep it real, we're all auditioning for jobs if worst comes to worst."

 

Bowens seems to understand what manager Sparky Anderson meant when he said, "Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year."

 

Holmgren may decide to retain Mangini. But if he doesn't, what exactly is the huge setback? Why would 12 games of floundering followed by a four-game sprint to the finish line be such a mandate for the status quo that Holmgren shouldn't chance interrupting it?

 

In accepting Lerner's offer to become team president Monday, Holmgren has a tremendous opportunity to reshape the Browns. Eleven draft picks are only part of that. He could draw on a vision cemented over decades in pro football in hiring a GM and head coach who could work well together and who would share his philosophy.

 

He turned down Seattle, in part because he wouldn't have complete power. He'll get that here and he shouldn't be shy about exercising it solely because of late-season momentum.

In deciding what to do about a head coach, it's far more important to ask of Mangini what he'd ask of any candidate? Does he believe what I believe? Can he coach egos? Can he handle quarterbacks? Can he attract free agents?

 

Most importantly given the need for a GM, can he work well with others? Holmgren should ask a thousand things before wondering if it's fair to give Mangini only a year. Bill Parcells asked those same questions in Miami when he let Cam Cameron go after a single season.

 

Holmgren needs to know why it went south so quickly for the head coach and his hand-picked GM/friend. Kokinis is seeking arbitration, saying the Browns misled him when they guaranteed control of personnel.

 

Randy Lerner hasn't played hardball with the other football men he's canned, and that's not exactly a short list. So maybe the problem was Kokinis. Holmgren needs to evaluate that.

 

He also needs to know why the Jets let Mangini go after two winning seasons in three. Coincidentally, Holmgren, as Seattle's head coach, dealt Mangini one of the losses that might've helped cost him the Jets job in the next-to-last game of 2008.

 

His mandate isn't fairness to Mangini out of a shared empathy for a difficult job. It's to build a contending team and solid organization by any and all means.

 

 

Gee Bud this is not another biased article about Mangini is it? he asked a question in his header and answers it one way.his way

Bud Shaw is exactly whats wrong with the media around here..bash..bash ..bash. I'm so sick of this negative garbage I want to puke

[Canton Mike]

That's a sportswriter for ya! Let's see how long it'll take for him to start spewing negatives toward Holmgren? After all, as much as I like the hire, he's not perfect either. I honestly don't know what some of those folks will do once we return to respectability.

It's time to think positively.

Actually, Holmgren's FIRST challenge may be how to deal with many of the "bush league" sportswriters out there.

Mike

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Having read Bud's columns for quite some time, he rarely has anything positive to say about any Cleveland team. Screw him.

[ballpeen]

7

Gee Bud this is not another biased article about Mangini is it? he asked a question in his header and answers it one way.his way

Bud Shaw is exactly whats wrong with the media around here..bash..bash ..bash. I'm so sick of this negative garbage I want to puke

 

 

As a guy who likes mangini, I have to say I also like Shaw.

 

While there is no doubt about Shaw's position, I don't think he asks unfair questions.

 

Switching coaches at this point wouldn't do much to momentum.

 

If Holmgren isn't 100% satisfied that Mangini is his type of guy, keeping him would be a mistake.

 

If you aren't 100% sure you want the woman, and aren't 100% sure she feels the same way about you, then you best go separate ways.

 

JMO

 

While Holmgren will be the Prez...I am sure he will want to add his 2 cents worth in planning meeting. He needs to have a coach who is going to listen rather then let it go in on ear and out the other.

 

If we don't stick with Mangini, I think Mooch and Gruden become to top of the list guys. Both come from the Holmgren tree, so a lot of what they do was shaped my Holmgren, and Holmgren has a working relationship with both, which should help put him at ease and allow the coach to coach as I am sure Holgren knows you can't micro-manage that position.

[kshutchins]

Sounds like Bud is a little miffed that he hasn't been able to wheedle out any information about the Kokinis situation. It's nothing but mean-spirited insinuation.

 

I suspect that the reason Holmgren was hired is that he has the good sense to look at every aspect of the Cleveland Browns objectively and turn the ship in the right direction. I hardly think he needs Bud telling him what he "should" be doing.

 

 

[Gips]

I can see where bud is coming from losing mangini isnt really much of a setback in terms of progress made this year vs restarting again from scratch...we all want the coaching carousel to end and if holmgren keeps mangini and gives him a fair chance only to end up firing him next year due to not being on the same page then we have lost more time and still didnt stop the carousel...

 

We know that as coaches there are some serious differences in the 2 gentlemens coaching trees ,techniques and implementation of their knowledge..but wanting to win is something they both have in common and so far holmgren has taken the right first step in declaring he is the president and will not coach..to me that means he will likely hire a GM to deal with mangini perhaps one that will accommodate EM while holmgren may simply kick back and oversee the big picture of the football operations while letting his new GM run the show on the ground ,i know its hard to imagine mike "the big show" holmgren letting someone else make the decisions but its to early to tell yet ,we will know soon enough but it looks to me like we are going to have the proven standard trinity management tree at last..

[kshutchins]

I can see where bud is coming from losing mangini isnt really much of a setback in terms of progress made this year vs restarting again from scratch...we all want the coaching carousel to end and if holmgren keeps mangini and gives him a fair chance only to end up firing him next year due to not being on the same page then we have lost more time and still didnt stop the carousel...

 

We know there are some serious differences in the 2 gentlemens coaching trees ,techniques and implementation of their knowledge..but so far holmgren has taken the right first step in declaring he is the president and will not coach..to me that means he will likely hire a GM to deal with mangini while holmgren may simply kick back and oversee football operations while letting his new GM run the show ,i know its hard to imagine mike "the big show" holmgren letting someone else make the decisions but its to early to tell yet ,we will know soon enough..

 

I'd like to see a true collaborative process with each person (Owner, President, GM and HC) bringing their unique talents to the table. The President needs to be both a good listener and a decisive decision-maker. No doubt you'll see Holmgren's fingerprints all over this team. I'm personally more comfortable with leadership that nurtures talent at all levels and allows everyone in the organization to flourish. This sort of style counts on each individual accepting personal responsibility for his/her role in the organization. I prefer this to a "my way or the highway" micromanaging dictatorship. I guess it boils down to the kind of organization Randy Lerner prefers.

 

Either way, I'm not going to be working for the Browns so I guess as a fan I'm looking for an organization I can be proud of with a product on the field I can enjoy. I want to feel I'm getting good value for the money I put into the organization. I'd also like genuine communication with the fans as opposed to remarks that sound like they came from an approved list of scripted comments.

 

As President, I'm guessing Holmgren is going to be in charge of everything from player contracts to the kind of mustard served in the stadium. He'll be making lots of decisions from the mundane to the sublime; From how the team scouts players to whether or not there will be cheerleaders. This is quite an opportunity. Of course, we're all focused on the product that takes the field every week because that's the most important thing, but it will be interesting to me to see how the fan experience is also affected by his arrival (if at all). The team relationship with an adversarial gaggle of media will also evolve.

 

This should be fun.

 

 

[mopaji]

I swear, these writers are pissed that the Browns are winning. THEY HATE THE BROWNS!!!

 

Two record breaking performances and two wins in a row (one vs. Pitt) and all they can say is "so what, Mangini doesn't kiss our asses". They are all pissed that they no longer have a mole in the organization and so they blast Mangini for it. They are all lame. Their happy about Holmgren because they expect him to tell them everytime a practice squad guy gets a drink of water. What happens when he doesn't? They'll bash him too. Its really sick.

[mopaji]

I can see where bud is coming from losing mangini isnt really much of a setback in terms of progress made this year vs restarting again from scratch

 

Tell that to the players.

 

[Dave]

"He'll get that here and he shouldn't be shy about exercising it solely because of late-season momentum. "

 

Wait, winning doesn't count now?

 

[peterbell]

The sportswriters will say its not their job to cowtow to the coach..okay so its their job to be the diometricly opposite and constantly put down the team and coach...Theres no balance by any of them except Pluto. hypocritical phoneys

[yosemitejam]

Mike Holmgren's first challenge? Is Eric Mangini the right choice on the sidelines: Bud Shaw

By Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer

December 22, 2009, 1:14AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Now that Mike Holmgren has signed up in Berea, his checklist of things to consider in reshaping the Browns should start with Eric Mangini's role in the George Kokinis fiasco -- not Mangini's part in a narrow win over a bad Kansas City team. If you think beating the Chiefs was more proof the Browns are trying to save the job of the head coach or finally buying into his program -- really now, give it some more thought. Lending legitimacy to that point in the wake of great success in the running game and on special teams requires you to consider, then, that the porous defense was trying to send the message that it wanted Romeo Crennel reinstated.

 

Hey Bud, what makes you think MH gives a flying fck about the "George Kokinis fiasco"? You state this should be at the top of his to do list. You are a pin head. Let the shark lawyers take care of any pending litigation...Just because you have been out of the loop doesn't mean that MH is going to cater to your need for

inside 411..How the hell would you know what msg the defense was trying to send if any??? speculation at best

 

David Bowens, a Mangini guy who had every reason to run with the notion that the team is suddenly playing to spare their head coach, rejected it instead.

 

 

A couple of wins at the end of a miserable season can't be reason enough to keep Eric Mangini, and Mike Holmgren should know that, says Bud Shaw."I don't know if it's fair to say that," Bowens told reporters after Sunday's game. "I just think we're tired of losing. To keep it real, we're all auditioning for jobs if worst comes to worst."

 

What the hell qualifies you to make an idiotic statement about what MH SHOULD know? You live in a fairy tale world.

 

Bowens seems to understand what manager Sparky Anderson meant when he said, "Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year."

 

What does this have to do with the theme of your article??? A 25 year old Sparky quote?? Can we be a bit more timely??

 

Holmgren may decide to retain Mangini. But if he doesn't, what exactly is the huge setback? Why would 12 games of floundering followed by a four-game sprint to the finish line be such a mandate for the status quo that Holmgren shouldn't chance interrupting it?

 

In accepting Lerner's offer to become team president Monday, Holmgren has a tremendous opportunity to reshape the Browns. Eleven draft picks are only part of that. He could draw on a vision cemented over decades in pro football in hiring a GM and head coach who could work well together and who would share his philosophy.

 

He turned down Seattle, in part because he wouldn't have complete power. He'll get that here and he shouldn't be shy about exercising it solely because of late-season momentum.

In deciding what to do about a head coach, it's far more important to ask of Mangini what he'd ask of any candidate? Does he believe what I believe? Can he coach egos? Can he handle quarterbacks? Can he attract free agents?

 

Most importantly given the need for a GM, can he work well with others? Holmgren should ask a thousand things before wondering if it's fair to give Mangini only a year. Bill Parcells asked those same questions in Miami when he let Cam Cameron go after a single season.

 

Holmgren needs to know why it went south so quickly for the head coach and his hand-picked GM/friend. Kokinis is seeking arbitration, saying the Browns misled him when they guaranteed control of personnel.

 

Randy Lerner hasn't played hardball with the other football men he's canned, and that's not exactly a short list. So maybe the problem was Kokinis. Holmgren needs to evaluate that.

 

He also needs to know why the Jets let Mangini go after two winning seasons in three. Coincidentally, Holmgren, as Seattle's head coach, dealt Mangini one of the losses that might've helped cost him the Jets job in the next-to-last game of 2008.

 

His mandate isn't fairness to Mangini out of a shared empathy for a difficult job. It's to build a contending team and solid organization by any and all means.

 

 

Gee Bud this is not another biased article about Mangini is it? he asked a question in his header and answers it one way.his way

Bud Shaw is exactly whats wrong with the media around here..bash..bash ..bash. I'm so sick of this negative garbage I want to puke

 

 

i could spend hours ripping into this negative BS....

[Speedyd900rr]

That's the problem with today's media, there lazy. They dont want to go out and get the information, intead they want to sit at there desk and have it handed to them. If they dont have it handed to them then they will write what they want and make it sound like it was handed to them.

[Chicopee John]

....... losing mangini isnt really much of a setback in terms of progress made this year vs restarting again from scratch...

 

Interesting how the many folks who wanted RAC fired because he was such a bad coach (presumably with great talent) now want to maintain Mangini because the team has shown improvement - in the short run and against equally inept teams. Year to date, the team is - AT BEST - as good or bad (take your pick) as last year.

 

All of a sudden, the talent sucks and Mangini has made good strides?

 

I don't buy it and I don't believe - for a split second - that Mangini will return next year. Nor do I believe he should.

[JoeSixPat]

Holmgren can't overlook the fact that if Mangini had been doing a good job, Holmgren wouldn't be here in the first place.

 

Aside from that one assumes Holmgren will want a Head Coach (and QB) very familiar with the West Coast offense. Mangini wouldn't even claim to be that. Mangini is a defensive specialist (who allowed Kansas City to score 34 points on them last week.)

 

[kshutchins]

Holmgren can't overlook the fact that if Mangini had been doing a good job, Holmgren wouldn't be here in the first place.

 

Not necessarily.

 

[Jantz2086]

Do some of you know anything, other than the results you see on Sportscenter? Some of you are just plain non-knowledge and ridiculous sounding in your posts. This team was in shambles before Eric Mangini took over - we had 0 depth, we had less draft picks than we ever had, and we had members of this organization that were upset that we now have a coach that would rather hit em across the head and make sure they do it right - rather than go out and buy them a drink. The team you see now, is 30 times different than the team you saw 2 months ago. This team is starting to create and identity, this team is starting to gain a sense of self-worth, and they are starting to form into a unit.

 

Mangini took this job because he wanted to start from square one, he wanted to develop his own teams - his own identity. He didn' want pre-madonna's out there that were worried about their fantasy stats more then how good their block was. He's getting a certain type of player, and it's showing. If you thought this team was going to be a .500 team, you had absolutely known nothing about this team. Not only have we cut salary cap - but we'v cut unecesarry contracts as much as we could - we've added 17 men to our organization that has played in more games this year then they had the year previously (depth), and we've added 4-6 draft picks.

 

The New England Patriots hired Bill Belichek in 2000. That year, the Patriots went 5-11. Bill through people out of the organization, he brought in people - he created his identity, he created his unit to how he wanted it done. He didn't care if your names was Bledsoe or Glenn - if you didn't fit and want to play, you weren't playing, and you we're on your way out. The next year, 2001 - Bill and the Patriots went 11-5, and went on to win the Super Bowl and create an absolute dynasty. I see that in Mangini - I see that in his attitude and demeanour, and it is unfair and unjust to not give Mr. Mangini more time to develop this team into how he sees it. This team was in absolute dissaray before he got here, once he finishes - we will be no longer hoping for sub .500 seasons, we will get seasons that are more successfull.

 

The hiring of Mike Holmgren was a good one. He can add a demention of scouting and football operations that Mangini can't cover - but do not take away the role from Mangini. This is his football team, and needs to be his football team.

 

Mike H.

HC - Mangini

DC - Rob Ryan

OC - Fire Drabol, bring in Jim Zorn or Weis

 

We're going to be fine. It's going to be fun. But don't ruin what Mangini started.

[Chicopee John]

>>But don't ruin what Mangini started.>>

 

What did he start? You got to be kidding.

 

I hope the door doesn't hit Mangini on the way out. Parcells canned Cameron after one year and there is no reason that Holmgren will keep Mangini around either.

 

[beefjerky]

>>But don't ruin what Mangini started.>>

 

What did he start? You got to be kidding.

 

I hope the door doesn't hit Mangini on the way out. Parcells canned Cameron after one year and there is no reason that Holmgren will keep Mangini around either.

what did he start? Discipline.

[bonedawg]

Note to Bud Shaw: STFU!

[Chicopee John]

what did he start? Discipline.

 

Why not just hire a school marm? Or an old Nun?

 

Our town's High School team was very disciplined this year. They stunk but they were sure disciplined!!!

[Jantz2086]

>>But don't ruin what Mangini started.>>

 

What did he start? You got to be kidding.

 

I hope the door doesn't hit Mangini on the way out. Parcells canned Cameron after one year and there is no reason that Holmgren will keep Mangini around either.

 

You never played organized team sports, did you? What did he start? He started a team that has shown more of an identity than any Browns team since their return. He's not out to make friends, he's out to create a unit and a structure. He cares about this football program and wants to turn it into something that will be built to last, rather than built for now (RAC and Savage era). If you think that any Browns teams since their return has more of an identity and more "structure" and knowledge of what they want to accomplish than this team at this exact point - then you are just kidding yourself. I don't care about Cameron. Cameron was a completely different coach, with a style similar to RAC - what's good right now, who's good right now, what can I do - right now.

 

If we fire Mangini we will regret it. There's no denying that. There is thousands of reasons to keep Mangini.

[Jantz2086]

Why not just hire a school marm? Or an old Nun?

 

Our town's High School team was very disciplined this year. They stunk but they were sure disciplined!!!

 

Really? How can we discuss anything with you when you have replies like this.

[mopaji]

You never played organized team sports, did you? What did he start? He started a team that has shown more of an identity than any Browns team since their return. He's not out to make friends, he's out to create a unit and a structure. He cares about this football program and wants to turn it into something that will be built to last, rather than built for now (RAC and Savage era). If you think that any Browns teams since their return has more of an identity and more "structure" and knowledge of what they want to accomplish than this team at this exact point - then you are just kidding yourself. I don't care about Cameron. Cameron was a completely different coach, with a style similar to RAC - what's good right now, who's good right now, what can I do - right now.

 

If we fire Mangini we will regret it. There's no denying that. There is thousands of reasons to keep Mangini.

 

 

And only one reason to fire him. He doesn't leak information out of Berea to the media. WHAT A DICK!! I'm with you jantz, the guy's doing what nobody else has had the courage to do since 99. He's tackling the hard parts of the process first. He's installing a plan and a future for this franchise. He's BUILDING a franchise not REbuilding. He has done everything pefectly and it has taken an obscene amount of courage to do it. He has already changed the culture and attitude of the team which I thought would be impossible and it almost was. It took the players 10 weeks to realize he is here to stay and they better quit pouting nad play football. Despite the most talentless roster in sports, he has them playing together like we haven't seen since Marty. We may only have 3 wins but we won ech of those games with no talent and more importantly, we won them in 3 different ways! That tells me this group of players are basically willing themselves to victory despite having no talent. That speaks volumes about what he has done.

 

Big Show has to see that and more, and be happy he has this type of coach on his team. He would be a fool not to.

[mopaji]

You never played organized team sports, did you? What did he start? He started a team that has shown more of an identity than any Browns team since their return. He's not out to make friends, he's out to create a unit and a structure. He cares about this football program and wants to turn it into something that will be built to last, rather than built for now (RAC and Savage era). If you think that any Browns teams since their return has more of an identity and more "structure" and knowledge of what they want to accomplish than this team at this exact point - then you are just kidding yourself. I don't care about Cameron. Cameron was a completely different coach, with a style similar to RAC - what's good right now, who's good right now, what can I do - right now.

 

If we fire Mangini we will regret it. There's no denying that. There is thousands of reasons to keep Mangini.

 

 

He's never played ANYTHING obviously because he thinks it works like PS3. One draft and one free agency and a champion you have built. That's the mentality that is against Mangini and it's basically 5th graders and the media.

[Jantz2086]

He's never played ANYTHING obviously because he thinks it works like PS3. One draft and one free agency and a champion you have built. That's the mentality that is against Mangini and it's basically 5th graders and the media.

 

Exactly. ESPN has killed Mangini's reputation with the world. If you knew how professional sports were ran, and how a football dynasty should be built - you'd agree with EVERY decision Mangini has made. And I have.

[kshutchins]

He didn' want pre-madonna's out there that were worried about their fantasy stats more then how good their block was.

 

He didn't want prima donnas either. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

He didn't want prima donnas either. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

 

 

Thank you. I've been biting my tongue on that matter for quite a long time. What the hell is a pre-madonna? A person born before Madonna?

 

[Jantz2086]

Thank you. I've been biting my tongue on that matter for quite a long time. What the hell is a pre-madonna? A person born before Madonna?

 

:lol, my bad indeed. That is what I get for typing a long response on my blackberry. I had seemingly spelled it wrong, and now pay the consequences of technology. Anywho, back to the subject at hand shall we?

 

[Mark O]

If we don't stick with Mangini, I think Mooch and Gruden become to top of the list guys. Both come from the Holmgren tree, so a lot of what they do was shaped my Holmgren, and Holmgren has a working relationship with both, which should help put him at ease and allow the coach to coach as I am sure Holgren knows you can't micro-manage that position.

 

 

I think being able to get either one of these guys out of the broadcast booth is part of the decision whether we keep Mangini or not. If they both turned down Holmgren, Mangini is likely to stay, but I think if Holmgren can get "his" guy, Mangini will be gone.