ESPN's John Clayton Reporting Holmgren Will Fire Mangini

[DAWGPOUND16]

Audio Link: http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/player?id=4764190

The part about Holmgren/Mangini starts around 0:43.

[cdl15]

Audio Link: http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/player?id=4764190

The part about Holmgren/Mangini starts around 0:43.

omg getting excited... finally someone who knows what they are doing. Build from the very top down should of done it years ago

[Flugel]

omg getting excited... finally someone who knows what they are doing. Build from the very top down should of done it years ago

 

What proof do we have he is any better than Carmen Policy and latte boy Dwight Clark? HOPE he is! I've always been a HOMER everytime we added an important position and it's come back to bite me.

 

If we fire Mangini for Jon Gruden, I'd hold off on the champagne celebrations. I've seen the West Coast offense without Montana and Young running them here pretty much the same way I've seen the 3-4 without Lawrence Taylor, Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson and Harry Carson.

 

I'm waiting for the return of innovation where a dude looks at the collective roster and says - we have a NUCLEUS of promising guys that we can FIND the right style and schemes for instead of cramming square pegs into round openings. By the time our team in transition wants to perfect every new fad - the league has caught up with these systems and outdated them if you will. SOMETIMES copycat leagues reward the innovators. AND in a division that has so many aggressive zone blitz schemes, I'm not sure a West Coast Offense is compatible with inexperienced QBs lacking Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Brent Jones. Come to think of it, we could really use talents like that in the vertical game before high 5 each other for another West Coast Offense coming to town minus the Jimmys and the Joes necessary for verticality.

 

This might not be fair but it's tough to shake the last image of Holmgren as GM in Seattle. I think the headline read "Sleepless in Seattle." There were rumors Parcells was interested in coming here; and I think he would have been more apt to KEEP the momentum we're seeing today BECAUSE of Mangini. You heard me, BECAUSE of Mangini. I think the biggest mistakes he's made is loyalty to Jamal Lewis and playing "I've a bunch of secrets" with the media. Again, I'm not saying I think Holmgren will fail - I've just never seen a business that interviews just 1 candidate for a Head Coaching job and there's no second interview or others interviewed. SAME thing here and then 3 years later - we're always asking was that REALLY the best person we could have hired. Who else was interviewed for such an important job here?

 

This is some of the BEST coaching I've seen in the 10 years (make it 11 if we count the 99 season). We've got virtual nobodies WINNING out there because guys like Rob Ryan (DC), Bryan Cox (dline), Brad Seeley (STs) and George Warhop (oline). When people auto-default to fire the OC every single day - it'sd hard to want to read their pount. Some of these guys would blindly hail Jon Gruden as the perfect fit here because he communicates with F-bombs and makes facial expressions like he's got a painful plop coming out the backdoor. Look at the offense he BUILT in Tampa - it got worse with every season as countless veterans took parting shots about his Napoleon complex and inability to communicate. If you CAN communicate - you don't need to dress it up vulgarities, voice volume and facial expressions 24/7. The ONLY Superbowl I saw Tampa win was Monte Kiffen's defense putting 28 points on the board vrs the Oakland Raiders team that could NOT make the Superbowl until Gruden's 1st year away. More specifically, Bill Callahan was more effective with Oakland's offense and it seemed like alot of their BEST players wanted America to know that for some reason.

 

I guess if WCO minus the West Coast QB, WRs, FB and TEs returns, I'd rather have it be Marriucci for the main reason that Gruden's act got stale in Tampa to the point of coin flipping us for a #3 overall pick. I WOULD like to see my first offense that understands FULLBACKS block better than 205 pound RBs. The Rams got it right when they had a 205 pound RB, they kept a FB into to block and they used Marshall Faulk to bury a blitz. That's how a RB collects over a 1000 yards receiving AND rushing in 1 season. Meanwhile, they kept their QB pretty clean. BTW, I'm sure Michael Turner could inform the masses that bodyweight has nothing to do with why he can't get on the field this season. There goes that big back never gets hurt theory eh? Trust me, Chris Johnson's 204 pounds is nearing 2000 rushing yards so I'm not buying this light guys can't run. James Brooks and Warrick Dunn never had issues with worklloads either.

- Tom F.

[lodilobo]

Audio Link: http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/player?id=4764190

The part about Holmgren/Mangini starts around 0:43.

Another Mangini hater expressing what he hopes will happen rather than reality. I hope Mangini will be the coach next season, and for Holmgren to fire him, just to replace him with some rookie assistant coach would be stupid. I don't see Holmgren changing the HC position unless he brings in Gruden or another proven guy.

[Flugel]

Another Mangini hater expressing what he hopes will happen rather than reality. I hope Mangini will be the coach next season, and for Holmgren to fire him, just to replace him with some rookie assistant coach would be stupid. I don't see Holmgren changing the HC position unless he brings in Gruden or another proven guy.

 

The thanks was for everything except Gruden. Folks, PLEASE research this guy and read all the parting shots of countless All Pros in Oakland AND Tampa before crowning him what we need. The SB wasn't a WCO offense taking flight - it was Kiffen's defense scoring on Oakland's West Coast offense 4 times. Gruden had little to do with it. Once that Gruden got all HIS guys in Tampa - he was completewly firable and forgettable. We've SEEN this act before - do we REALLY want it again?

- Tom F.

[mopaji]

I didn't listen to the audio but I read the column. He doesn't give a single reason or source for this "opinion" or "wish". Is there something in the audio that proves this? If not, this hardly sounds like a "report". It seems every "report" about Mangini is spin or a baseless opinion. Is this one different?

[Chip Banks]

The thanks was for everything except Gruden. Folks, PLEASE research this guy and read all the parting shots of countless All Pros in Oakland AND Tampa before crowning him what we need. The SB wasn't a WCO offense taking flight - it was Kiffen's defense scoring on Oakland's West Coast offense 4 times. Gruden had little to do with it. Once that Gruden got all HIS guys in Tampa - he was completewly firable and forgettable. We've SEEN this act before - do we REALLY want it again?

- Tom F.

 

Dead on. Chucky is a fraud. He went 4-12 with much more favorable conditions than Mangini inherited (locker room cancers, righting salary cap, limited draft choices) and was a sub .500 coach over his last 5 years.

 

That said, I'm not worried that he'll come here. Gruden isn't going to want to come to Cleveland and take just a coaching position. And at this point in their careers, Holmgren will not want to deal with a high profile coach with whom me might butt heads.

 

Peter King thinks it'll be Marty Morningweig. Mangini still has a chance to win as many games this year (5) as MM won in TWO seasons with the Lions.

 

I think Holmgren goes the young coordinator route. And his "tree" is full of offensive coaches promoted to head coach. Darell Bevel is the name I'm throwing out.

 

As much as I think this is all a mistake, I see us in the WCO. Seventy percent chance we go back to the 4-3. Holmgren is going to want his team to run schemes that he believes in and has mastery of. Outside of the D tackles, I'm not sure we have the personnel for either.

 

The ironic thing is that we were best suited to make this transition when Romeo/Savage took the reins and they were considering "Chilly". We were running a 4-3 defense and were one stud D-lineman and a few linebackers short of having a solid personnel grouping with tons of cash under the cap. We had Garcia, three WCO-type receivers in Winslow, Bryant and A. Davis and even a serviceable (although oft injured) WCO-type receiving back in Suggs.

 

 

[kshutchins]

I'm waiting for the return of innovation where a dude looks at the collective roster and says - we have a NUCLEUS of promising guys that we can FIND the right style and schemes for instead of cramming square pegs into round openings.

 

I agree with you completely.

 

John Clayton certainly sounds convincing but nowhere does he say how he knows this. He may be 100 % correct but I won't be convinced until I hear it from Holmgren himself. I'll think less of the Holmgren hiring if the first thing he does is toss everybody out without looking in depth at what's in place.

 

The thing I DIDN'T hear anywhere that makes me think Clayton could be right, was the report of any discussion between Holmgren and Mangini other than a friendly chat. There was no mention of a conversation about Mangini's goals/plans/observations of the team currently in place. Nothing that would assure me that they know they're on the same page. Of course, since we assume Holmgren has the ability to fire Mangini at any point, I can see how these discussions might happen once Mike takes the job. (It really irritates me when reporters convey information as fact when they are simply inferring something from their general impressions or making a wild-ass guess.)

 

The one thing I can't WAIT to see in Cleveland Browns territory again is STABILITY.

I like what Mangini has said and shown that he believes. I'm not sure I want THAT part to change. I'd certainly love for them to find the cheese and enjoy it for a while.

[Gips]

Geez guys,

We dont even know how holmgen plans on handling anything yet ,it seems most likely to me that he will name a GM first to help develop a regime plan and then take the time honored traditional method of "cleaning house" starting upstairs and moving down to lower management in rapid succession..

 

IMHO the guy he chooses as his GM (including possibly himself) will give away the direction holmgren plans on taking us but like many others im hedging my bet on us converting to a WCO and a 4-3 defense ,and i dont see mangini as being part of the transformation ,mangini has proven that he isnt capable enough of administering his own systems/process efficiently or effectively let alone the WCO and 4-3 that holmgren and his henchman GM are likely to initiate...

 

Its all just a guess right now but i am for going with the WCO and converting back to the 4-3 ,after 5 years of failed 3-4 due to poor scouting combined with too few truly talented convertible prospects for a 1 or 2 gap is more than enough wasted time..

 

Gruden isnt coming folks i like him far better then the borderline frauds we currently have as a HC and his idiot OC but im thinking holmgren wants to attempt to build his own empire from scratch from the top down...if so lets just hope its the beginning of the last rebuild for a while..

 

We cant really expect a guy like holmgren to take just any path its his "big show" and i say lights ,camera , action baby!

 

[NW Ohio Brownie]

What proof do we have he is any better than Carmen Policy and latte boy Dwight Clark? HOPE he is! I've always been a HOMER everytime we added an important position and it's come back to bite me.

 

If we fire Mangini for Jon Gruden, I'd hold off on the champagne celebrations. I've seen the West Coast offense without Montana and Young running them here pretty much the same way I've seen the 3-4 without Lawrence Taylor, Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson and Harry Carson.

 

I'm waiting for the return of innovation where a dude looks at the collective roster and says - we have a NUCLEUS of promising guys that we can FIND the right style and schemes for instead of cramming square pegs into round openings. By the time our team in transition wants to perfect every new fad - the league has caught up with these systems and outdated them if you will. SOMETIMES copycat leagues reward the innovators. AND in a division that has so many aggressive zone blitz schemes, I'm not sure a West Coast Offense is compatible with inexperienced QBs lacking Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Brent Jones. Come to think of it, we could really use talents like that in the vertical game before high 5 each other for another West Coast Offense coming to town minus the Jimmys and the Joes necessary for verticality.

 

This might not be fair but it's tough to shake the last image of Holmgren as GM in Seattle. I think the headline read "Sleepless in Seattle." There were rumors Parcells was interested in coming here; and I think he would have been more apt to KEEP the momentum we're seeing today BECAUSE of Mangini. You heard me, BECAUSE of Mangini. I think the biggest mistakes he's made is loyalty to Jamal Lewis and playing "I've a bunch of secrets" with the media. Again, I'm not saying I think Holmgren will fail - I've just never seen a business that interviews just 1 candidate for a Head Coaching job and there's no second interview or others interviewed. SAME thing here and then 3 years later - we're always asking was that REALLY the best person we could have hired. Who else was interviewed for such an important job here?

 

This is some of the BEST coaching I've seen in the 10 years (make it 11 if we count the 99 season). We've got virtual nobodies WINNING out there because guys like Rob Ryan (DC), Bryan Cox (dline), Brad Seeley (STs) and George Warhop (oline). When people auto-default to fire the OC every single day - it'sd hard to want to read their pount. Some of these guys would blindly hail Jon Gruden as the perfect fit here because he commincates with F-bombs and makes facial expressions like he's got a painful plop coming out the backdoor. Look at the offense he BUILT in Tampa - it got worse wqith every season as countless veterans took parting shots about hius Napoleon complex and inability to communicate. If you CAN communicate - you don't need to dress it up vulgarities, voice volume and facial experessions 24/7. The ONLY Superbowl I saw Tampa win was Monte Kiffen's defense putting 28 points on the board vrs the Oakland Raiders team that could NOT make the Superbowl until Gruden's 1st year away. More specifically, Bill Callahan was more effective with Oakland's offense and it seemed like alot of their BEST players wanted America to know that for some reason.

 

I guess if WCO minus the West Coast QB, WRs, FB and TEs returns, I'd rather have it be Marriucci for the main reason that Gruden's act got stale in Tampa to the point of coin flipping us for a #3 overall pick. I WOULD like to see my first offense that understands FULLBACKS block better than 205 pound RBs. The Rams got it right when they had a 205 pound RB, they kept a FB into to block and they used Marsall Faulk to bury a blitz. That's how a RB collects over a 1000 yards receiving AND rushing in 1 season. Meanwhile, they kept their QB pretty clean. BTW, I'm sure Michael Turner could inform the masses that bodyweight has nothing to do with why he can't get on the field this season. There's goers that big back never gets hurt theory eh? Trust me, Chris Johnson's 204 pounds is nearing 2000 rushing yards so I'm not buying this light guys can't run. James Brooks and Warrick Dunn never had issues with worklloads either.

- Tom F.

 

Tom,

 

You hit on a lot of my feelings here. My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good. I think one thing everyone can agree on that he really needs to hire a good scout/player personnel guy to run the draft. That's imperative.

 

But, yeah, I'm with you on the head coaching thing. I want Mangini to stick around for the reasons you said and more. What's more is that the media hasn't given me one, ONE, potential replacement that I would want more than I want the guy who is currently in charge.

 

In fact, I had a nightmare last night that Holmgren had fired Mangini and replaced him with (are you ready for this?) . . . Steve Spurrier. Not making that up.

[MudratDetector]

i don't care if he's correct or not, but i just can't stand john clayton (or kiper for that matter)

[dj_illness]

here's a hint: don't listen to ANYTHING the media has to say about mangini.

 

 

end of story.

[Bob806]

here's a hint: don't listen to ANYTHING the media has to say about mangini.

 

 

end of story.

 

I second the motion.

[samoth]

Tom,

 

You hit on a lot of my feelings here. My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good. I think one thing everyone can agree on that he really needs to hire a good scout/player personnel guy to run the draft. That's imperative.

 

But, yeah, I'm with you on the head coaching thing. I want Mangini to stick around for the reasons you said and more. What's more is that the media hasn't given me one, ONE, potential replacement that I would want more than I want the guy who is currently in charge.

 

In fact, I had a nightmare last night that Holmgren had fired Mangini and replaced him with (are you ready for this?) . . . Steve Spurrier. Not making that up.

The last time we had a really good scout/personnel guy we had Savage giving us John Dunn and Travis Wilson.

 

Heck, look at Scott Pioli in KC. Supposedly he was a genius, but it looks like Haley may well be one and done with the talent that Pioli gave him to work with. Their draft was one stinker after another, and picking a 3-4 DE who can't stop the Browns dominate rushing attack #3 overall cant be helping their cause too much.

[NW Ohio Brownie]

The last time we had a really good scout/personnel guy we had Savage giving us John Dunn and Travis Wilson.

 

Heck, look at Scott Pioli in KC. Supposedly he was a genius, but it looks like Haley may well be one and done with the talent that Pioli gave him to work with. Their draft was one stinker after another, and picking a 3-4 DE who can't stop the Browns dominate rushing attack #3 overall cant be helping their cause too much.

 

 

When Holmgren ran the Seattle drafts, he hit on 37% of the picks. That's a fact. I'm just sayin' that the more voices we have in that draft room the better and we better damn well have someone hired soon who will scout the hell out of the college players. Holmgren ain't it. He's not a scout by trade. He's more of an administrator, which is great, in my opinion.

 

And Savage ain't gettin' this job. But he did do well to bring in guys like Cribbs, McDonald, and Harrison who were late-round/FA guys. Yes, Wilson was a bust, no question. Savage's downfall was his FA spending, IMO. Crazy money for a lot of guys who didn't contribute here (Baxter, Bentley, Stallworth to name a few).

 

I just don't trust Holmgren to be the sole operator of the draft. Again, he's a great coach, but he's not Ernie Accorsi either.

[next2nothing]

I really hope the Crypt Keeper is wrong about this.

[Kosar_For_President]

My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good.

 

Why was he not a good GM? And he was coaching at the time. I know everyone wants perfection, but it is just not possible. He is the best choice out there.

[dj_illness]

When Holmgren ran the Seattle drafts, he hit on 37% of the picks. That's a fact. I'm just sayin' that the more voices we have in that draft room the better and we better damn well have someone hired soon who will scout the hell out of the college players. Holmgren ain't it. He's not a scout by trade. He's more of an administrator, which is great, in my opinion.

 

And Savage ain't gettin' this job. But he did do well to bring in guys like Cribbs, McDonald, and Harrison who were late-round/FA guys. Yes, Wilson was a bust, no question. Savage's downfall was his FA spending, IMO. Crazy money for a lot of guys who didn't contribute here (Baxter, Bentley, Stallworth to name a few).

 

I just don't trust Holmgren to be the sole operator of the draft. Again, he's a great coach, but he's not Ernie Accorsi either.

 

 

then we need some good scouting.

[peterbell]

Mangini isn't going anywhere..Clayton is an English major geek who never strapped on the pads.

You think Clayton wasn't slamming Holgrem near the end in Seattle..sure he was..You think MH

would tell Clayton anything..doubtful.

[MudratDetector]

I really hope the Crypt Keeper is wrong about this.

 

i look at john clayton and i can't help to wonder if he spent the first 9 months of his life dodging a wire coat hanger

[dj_illness]

i look at john clayton and i can't help to wonder if he spent the first 9 months of his life dodging a wire coat hanger

 

 

that's terrible.

[NW Ohio Brownie]

Mangini isn't going anywhere..Clayton is an English major geek who never strapped on the pads.

You think Clayton wasn't slamming Holgrem near the end in Seattle..sure he was..You think MH

would tell Clayton anything..doubtful.

 

pete,

 

I hope you're right. I just don't have a good feeling about it.

 

I really hope these last two games go our way and the guys continue to fight for EM and themselves.

[NW Ohio Brownie]

Why was he not a good GM? And he was coaching at the time. I know everyone wants perfection, but it is just not possible. He is the best choice out there.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with the hire. I think he will be a good leader for the organization. I'm just not sold on his drafting ability. He's not a scout by trade. Nobody argues this. But he is a good evaluator of coaches, no question.

 

Therefore, I am hoping for the following things:

1) Hire a good personnel director/scout for the draft

2) Work with EM

3) Open up the possibilities of additions to EM's staff that would help (Weis, Zorn, etc.)

4) For Czar Holmgren to tell the PD and other local hacks to stick it

[peterbell]

If Marty Morningwig is the Browns HC i'm done..mangini took over the most DYSFUNCTIONAL FRANCHISE in the NFL and has clearly made major strides to right this ship..Anyone who doesn't see that is kidding themselves, a Mangini hater or a low watt light bulb.or a dull tool in the shed.

[Kosar_For_President]

I'm not disagreeing with the hire. I think he will be a good leader for the organization. I'm just not sold on his drafting ability. He's not a scout by trade. Nobody argues this. But he is a good evaluator of coaches, no question.

 

Therefore, I am hoping for the following things:

1) Hire a good personnel director/scout for the draft

2) Work with EM

3) Open up the possibilities of additions to EM's staff that would help (Weis, Zorn, etc.)

4) For Czar Holmgren to tell the PD and other local hacks to stick it

 

Could quite be. I think he did well in the draft.

 

1999 - Lamar King

2000 - Shaun Alexander and Chris McIntosh

2001 - Steve Hutchinson, Ken Lucas, Orlando Huff, Floyd Womack

2002 - none

 

So 3 pro bowlers in 4 years? Not including the serviceable players taken in the 4th and above rounds. Not bad considering he was coaching at the time. Compare that with all the other teams and I would say he was in the top 10 for those 4 years. Yes he did draft 2 busts Koren Robinson (pro bowl 05 though) and Jeremy Stevens.

 

I do agree if he can get someone to look into character a bit more, which I think he will, I think he is going to draft great!

[Frenchie]

Is there anything we (as fans and as members of the Brown's Board) can do to send a message to Holmgren and Lerner that we want EM to be given the chance he deserves? Can the Browns Board pin a thread where we can voice our concern and send it with everyone's comments to their respective offices?

[peterbell]

Is there anything we (as fans and as members of the Brown's Board) can do to send a message to Holmgren and Lerner that we want EM to be given the chance he deserves? Can the Browns Board pin a thread where we can voice our concern and send it with everyone's comments to their respective offices?

 

 

Stan..i believe you have an assignment..Great idea Frenchie

[mopaji]

If Marty Morningwig is the Browns HC i'm done..mangini took over the most DYSFUNCTIONAL FRANCHISE in the NFL and has clearly made major strides to right this ship..Anyone who doesn't see that is kidding themselves, a Mangini hater or a low watt light bulb.or a dull tool in the shed.

 

 

I agree, that's why I cannot imagine why the Walrus wouldn't keep Mangini for at least another year. Holmgren has got to recognize progress when he sees it. And considering the fact that his contract may be for 10 years, it can only help him to give the coach another year. Now, if he were under a 3 year deal, I could see him wanting to get his own guy in here and sprint to the finish. Lerner has let him know with the 10 year deal that he is in it for the long-haul and so he shouldn't be rushed to make rash, uneducated decisions.

 

How does Morningwig still have job offers in the NFL?

[beefjerky]

I wouldn't be worried if it comes out of Clayton's mouth, but if Schefter says it, then that's when we should start to be worried about Mangini.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]