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Does Mangini really deserve another season?


SJ_Browns

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I'm just going to post some random thoughts that I've had about Mangini and see what other people think. I'm not saying I don't think Mangini can get it done, I just have some legitimate concerns.

 

Reggie Rucker made an interesting comment last night on chan. 5's Sunday Sports wrap up. He said that the Browns aren't playing hard for Mangini, they're playing hard for Holmgren.

 

I don't know how much credit Mangini really deserves for what's going on right now or if his recent coaching "success" is being overestimated by beating on lesser teams. I'm not totally comfortable with Mangini's decision making, some of the stuff that he does is just mind boggling.

 

For instance, he didn't handle the qb situation correctly. He should've stuck with BQ through the whole season to see what he had in him regardless if he struggled or not. That's what smart coaches do, let a young qb make mistakes. It's the only way young qbs will either grow or show that they don't have what it takes. You have to give them a fair chance.

 

Another thing that still bugs me is why did he stick with Jamal for so long? If Jamal didn't end up on the ir, would he still be the starting rb? How couldn't Mangini not see how much starting Jamal hurt the offense?

 

Mangini completely mishandled the rb position to. He had this bug up his ass about Jerome supposedly not blocking well or some bs like that. Dude, your team sucks, you can't afford to leave a person who can make plays on the sideline. If he's such a mangenius, why didn't he use his brain to figure out how to use Jerome earlier in the season?

 

Also, why didn't they kick it deep to the Raiders on the final possesion before halftime? On top of that, why didn't they have someone back by the goal post on the fg attempt to either block the fg or return it? Didn't the bears and Vasher do that in a similiar situation?

 

Mangini is kind of suspect to me. It seems like he's being Mr. nice guy all of a sudden and playing it straight now that he doesn't have all of the power and Holmgren is holding all of the cards. Where was all of this Mr. Nice guy stuff and being fair and nice to the players back in the begining of the season?

 

Mangini is a little suspect to me, but we'll see how Holmgren handles the situation.

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Come on man. The QB thing was handled exacvtly how the QB thing gets handled when you have two bad QBs. One has shown that he can put up 400 yards passing and the other is supposed to be the "answer" despite never displaying the nececarry tools to play in this league. The latter crapped all over the field and was hurting therest of the guys on the team who were busting their asses for a coach they didin't even understand yet. So, he got pulled. During a massive transformation of a franchise, you don't let the QB take his rookie lumps when you're trying to preech to your cynical team that your plan works. He pulled the plug and now we know what each guy can and can't do.

 

Jamal over Harrison? This applies to EVERY young guy player on this team that is getting their break due to injuries. You always want to put in the players who are least likely to make mistakes. This is doubley true when you are trying to change the culture and identity of a team. Stupid mistakes kill teams. It is always better to get beat by a team that is better than you than to beat yourself with mistakes. Once the players learn that they can perform in this system by executing properly and not making mistakes, you start seeing wins pile up. Mistake free ball leads to confidence, progress, and eventually, winning consistantly.

 

Mangini is acting more relaxed now because he had to rule with an iron fist. He inherited a team that needed a stiff kick in the face before anything else. This is how you create a culture. None of them deserved a happy-go-lucky coach when they were missing tackles, throwing picks, letting blitzers fly past them, dropping passes, and running into their lineman. Now, they are starting to get what Bernie called "an extremely difficult system to learn". We're seeing progress, and now the coach can relax on them a little bit. Because he's not strict for the sake of being strict. He's strict as a means to an end. Its like baby-sitting a bunch of assole little kids. You don't give them an inch until they earn it or they'll walk all over you. they are learning the system and now he knows the hardest parts of the process are over. From here on out, its all about just playing football.

 

 

PS. Don't listen to anybody in the media. The players were playing plenty hard before Holmgren came here. They like there coach and they play hard because that has become the culture of this team. Just like in the 80's. Blue-Collar, ass kicking players with class. That's what's happening here.

 

SORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING, i WENT PRETTY FAST

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I agree that the players are playing hard for him. And you really have to look at it, the Browns have won 3 games with no QB play of any kind. The players have not given up and that is a sign that the players buy into the coach. Holmgren isnt going to be the coach next year so why would the players be playing hard for him?

 

The coach has done enough to show he deserves another year, the OC, well maybe not. But the defense has for sure improved so you need to keep Ryan. Bring in a good class of rookies and free agents and get a QB that can remotely play the game and the Browns will be competitive.

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I think that Mangini handled several personnel issues terribly (QB, WR, at the very least). Not to mention the revolving door in our defensive backfield. What we're seeing late in the season is promising (3 wins in a row, a shot at winning 5 of the last 6). I think there are two ways to look at this:

 

1: Mangini laid the foundation for something very good. It's just now paying off.

2. The Browns had the pieces, but Mangini mishandled them until recently.

 

I'm tempted to think it's a bit more of the second.

 

Here are my real concerns:

1. Quinn should have started all season, from preseason, with full blessings from Mangini.

2. When Lewis looked like he did, his carries should have been reduced much sooner.

3. Robiskie should have been playing all along.

4. Any TE option should have been explored. Ours flat out sucked until Moore came along.

5. DBs, like the QB situation, need a bit of confidence from their coach. You're left on an island a lot. If you aren't the strongest player mentally, knowing that your coach has your back can pick you up after a blown coverage. We haven't had that.

6. Playcalling. Wow.

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Come on man. The QB thing was handled exacvtly how the QB thing gets handled when you have two bad QBs. One has shown that he can put up 400 yards passing and the other is supposed to be the "answer" despite never displaying the nececarry tools to play in this league. The latter crapped all over the field and was hurting therest of the guys on the team who were busting their asses for a coach they didin't even understand yet. So, he got pulled. During a massive transformation of a franchise, you don't let the QB take his rookie lumps when you're trying to preech to your cynical team that your plan works. He pulled the plug and now we know what each guy can and can't do.

 

Jamal over Harrison? This applies to EVERY young guy player on this team that is getting their break due to injuries. You always want to put in the players who are least likely to make mistakes. This is doubley true when you are trying to change the culture and identity of a team. Stupid mistakes kill teams. It is always better to get beat by a team that is better than you than to beat yourself with mistakes. Once the players learn that they can perform in this system by executing properly and not making mistakes, you start seeing wins pile up. Mistake free ball leads to confidence, progress, and eventually, winning consistantly.

 

Mangini is acting more relaxed now because he had to rule with an iron fist. He inherited a team that needed a stiff kick in the face before anything else. This is how you create a culture. None of them deserved a happy-go-lucky coach when they were missing tackles, throwing picks, letting blitzers fly past them, dropping passes, and running into their lineman. Now, they are starting to get what Bernie called "an extremely difficult system to learn". We're seeing progress, and now the coach can relax on them a little bit. Because he's not strict for the sake of being strict. He's strict as a means to an end. Its like baby-sitting a bunch of assole little kids. You don't give them an inch until they earn it or they'll walk all over you. they are learning the system and now he knows the hardest parts of the process are over. From here on out, its all about just playing football.

 

 

PS. Don't listen to anybody in the media. The players were playing plenty hard before Holmgren came here. They like there coach and they play hard because that has become the culture of this team. Just like in the 80's. Blue-Collar, ass kicking players with class. That's what's happening here.

 

SORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING, i WENT PRETTY FAST

 

i don't necessarily believe everything i hear from the media, but i do listen to them see if their info is worthwhile or just pure garbage.

 

i disagree with you assesment of the qb and rb situation for the reasons i listed in my op. we can agree to disagree on that and thanks for your feedback.

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YES Mangini deserves another season, he got rid of two players in return for more draft picks and a lower salary requirements (not to mention they are me first primadonnas) neither are playing well....

 

He cut tons of players with 90% of them not playing in the NFL anymore (our roster was basically filled with practice squad guys...) The defense is showing some light with basically 2nd string guys from NY as quick fill system/team attitude guys......

 

positioned us with a lot of drafts, and the team is showing some positive changes toward the end of the season...... ITS CRAZY to not let him have another year to show more positive direction and wins on the field. We dont have to be playoff material but 7-9 wins in his second year would be nice.

 

Things typically get worse before they get better, patience for next season and than we will have a better metric on if he is going to bring results.

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I think that Mangini handled several personnel issues terribly (QB, WR, at the very least). Not to mention the revolving door in our defensive backfield. What we're seeing late in the season is promising (3 wins in a row, a shot at winning 5 of the last 6). I think there are two ways to look at this:

 

1: Mangini laid the foundation for something very good. It's just now paying off.

2. The Browns had the pieces, but Mangini mishandled them until recently.

 

I'm tempted to think it's a bit more of the second.

 

Here are my real concerns:

1. Quinn should have started all season, from preseason, with full blessings from Mangini.

2. When Lewis looked like he did, his carries should have been reduced much sooner.

3. Robiskie should have been playing all along.

4. Any TE option should have been explored. Ours flat out sucked until Moore came along.

5. DBs, like the QB situation, need a bit of confidence from their coach. You're left on an island a lot. If you aren't the strongest player mentally, knowing that your coach has your back can pick you up after a blown coverage. We haven't had that.

6. Playcalling. Wow.

 

good points. let me also add that hank poteat should've been benched long time ago just like slowmal lewis. neither one helped the team in the bigger scheme of things.

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YES Mangini deserves another season, he got rid of two players in return for more draft picks and a lower salary requirements (not to mention they are me first primadonnas) neither are playing well....

 

He cut tons of players with 90% of them not playing in the NFL anymore (our roster was basically filled with practice squad guys...) The defense is showing some light with basically 2nd string guys from NY as quick fill system/team attitude guys......

 

positioned us with a lot of drafts, and the team is showing some positive changes toward the end of the season...... ITS CRAZY to not let him have another year to show more positive direction and wins on the field. We dont have to be playoff material but 7-9 wins in his second year would be nice.

 

Things typically get worse before they get better, patience for next season and than we will have a better metric on if he is going to bring results.

 

so what about this scenario, keep mangini and see how he does in the off-season and the begining of the regular season. see if he's the real deal or if he's just playing the role.

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so what about this scenario, keep mangini and see how he does in the off-season and the begining of the regular season. see if he's the real deal or if he's just playing the role.

 

keeping him till the regular season and fire him if he does not cut out ? that is going to burn the whole of next year. And we dont know if the next coach we hire will be good ... and thus we return to the circle.

 

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Mangini needs to be retained for another year. He has made so much progress with a team of mediocre players. They are playing hard and commiting very few penalties, they have won three straight and obviously they the players believe in Mangini.

 

Does anybody think that we have a super talented #1 receiver on our roster, or a shutdown corner, or a pro bowl linebacker? I can see us moving in the right direction and it is the first time we have done so in over 5 years!

 

 

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Here are my real concerns:

1. Quinn should have started all season, from preseason, with full blessings from Mangini.

.

 

Sorry I stopped reading here.

 

1. Did you really watch the first 3 games of the year or just read about them in the paper?

 

2. Yes or No answer please, I would pay BQ the $11 myn he was due this yr because of his escalator and the $9 myn he would be guaranteed next year if I would have committed to him all year, it would have been worth it.

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Yes, he deserves another season.

 

Regarding the QB controversy. Brady had the chance to grab that job by the throat even if he had only played as a top 20 QB. Instead he sucked big time and really showed no improvement during that time. You cannot leave a QB in week after week who is sucking and expect the team to play hard. It wasn't all Brady's fault but you owe a change to the other players who are working their butts off in every game. He gave Anderson a chance and when that failed he gave the reigns back to Brady. He did not leave one QB in but making it clear that #2 could come in at halftime if things weren't going well.

 

He gave each QB a legitimate chance and neither of them has proved anything. Hasn't Brady had two season ending injuries after only starting about eight games?

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It doesn't matter to me that he beat some weaker teams (Pittsburgh as well). No one gets credit when they lose to good teams. You play whoever is on the schedule. When the Pats went 16-0 in the regular season, did it matter that two wins were against the Bills?

 

I'm not buying that argument.

 

The players are playing hard and you (as an outsider) cannot determine whether they are playing for their coaches or themselves. There have been quotes (Matt Roth's comes to mind) that explains that they want to win for Ryan and Mangini. Take it for what it's worth. He could be telling the truth or he could be lying. We'll never know. The bottom line is that they're playing hard for the Cleveland Browns.

 

I am not going to act surprised if Eric Mangini loses his job but I think that this is a better team than sixteen weeks ago. I think that you can argue all you want about him handling the personnel in a way that you disliked but you also don't have all of the facts that the coaches have. There were plenty of posters on here in weeks 1-3 complaining that Harrison wasn't picking up the blitz. Now, everyone is bashing the coaching staff for not playing him more before now. How do we know that the benching of Jerome Harrison didn't lead to the extra effort it took to both get into the lineup and excel?

 

If Mike Holmgren wants a WCO/43 guy, then Mangini is gone for sure. I don't think that's fair but life isn't fair.

 

If Mike Holmgren says "My ego isn't so big that I am going to can a guy who's making progress as long as that guy is willing to work with me and subject to my rules." then I am okay with that too.

 

If Mike Holmgren gets rid of Eric Mangini because he isn't impressed, well, then there's going to be some debate especially if Marty Morningwheg (?sp) is his guy.

 

Perhaps Mike Holmgren waiting until next week is because he's thinking about giving Mangini a chance to continue if he'll agree to some changes in his staff.

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Sorry I stopped reading here.

 

1. Did you really watch the first 3 games of the year or just read about them in the paper?

 

2. Yes or No answer please, I would pay BQ the $11 myn he was due this yr because of his escalator and the $9 myn he would be guaranteed next year if I would have committed to him all year, it would have been worth it.

Shame you stopped reading when you did. You missed a nice post. Do me the courtesy of finishing reading it and I'll gladly answer your question.

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Here is another way to look at this situation, what if mangini can not handle taking orders and having to answer to the prez and gm after being stripped of all the power he had?

 

Which is another way of saying "I want my guy in here who will do what I tell him to do. I don't have time to be the coach but I have enough time to tell him what to do"

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Which is another way of saying "I want my guy in here who will do what I tell him to do. I don't have time to be the coach but I have enough time to tell him what to do"

 

Huh? How did you come up with this response to my post? When Lerner originally hired Mangini, he wanted all of the power. That is why he picked Kokinis to be his gm, so he could control everything and use those individuals that he brought in like puppets on a string.

 

What I'm asking is how will Mangini be now that he is under a true NFL structure where the coach isn't in charge of it all?

 

Also, Holmgren clearly stated that while he has the final decision, collective decision making is what he believes is the correct format to use for a fo to be successful, so your comment is off base (there's no reason to believe otherwise at this point).

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My only doubt is: this year he turned the place upside down, which you can only do once in a franchise.

The lower tier players seemed to respond pretty well and what we have today is probably the best one HC can take out of such roster.

With 2009 season the "unleash hell in the locker room" option is gone.

He has to build on what he has.

I think he can do it but I'm not 100% sure.

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Mangini inherited a lazy soft team from RAC. He changed the entire way of coaching. He got rid of the people who didn't want to do it his way, and has established a team that plays its heart out. This team has been improving. Players who don't like the coach don't perform. Remember Palmer's second year? We got blown out virtually the last few games with players who didn't care. This team is making a statement. They want Mangini to stay. You don't get rid of a coach after only one season. I would give him minimum of one more season. I think he will do good.

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Of course they are playing for pride and their jobs. It's what I said when when people all over Mangini that the team had quit on him. Now that they are playing hard people are finding a new way to criticize Mangini. Rucker's right. The point is that players really don't play for their coaches. But if a team wins, is well prepared, and is put in situations to be successful that's coaching. Against KC Robiskie was a force on special teams. Where were all the people that chided Mangini for insisting that he do so? Special teams won that game and great special teams give teams a huge advantage. In the last three games our QBs have managed the game. Does anybody remember all the motion and delay of game penalties we had last year.

 

The team is composed. Our disguise defense is taking hold. We're making up for our lack of talent with scheme. Guys like Bernanrd and Trusnik are looking like they can be major contributors going forward. Mangini, BTW had the eye to pick up Roth when Parcells absolutely screwed the pooch in cutting this guy. This isn't a fluke. He was a second round pick who was HUGE in their 11-5 year last season. If this is an uncapped year, he's restricted as a free agent. Meaning we can tender him and we get draft compensation if he signs with another team. Ummmm, DUH! I guarantee you that Belichick would LOVE to have this guy. He's been amazing at setting the edge and has a beastly bull rush.

 

Anyway, here's the thing with Harrison. We went through 3 QB injuries last year because we couldn't protect our QBs. As soon as he showed he could pick up the blitz, Harrison got his playing time.

 

And don't forget that we ran up 170 plus yards against the number 1 rush defense in the NFL on a night where no one could throw and in that game our major contributors were Jennings and Cribbs. The line play has improved and most knowledgeable football people will tell you that an offensive line needs to play together for a while to jell. Mack has REALLY emerged in the second half of this season. But the way to negatively spin this is: why didn't Harrison get these touches earlier?

 

Harrison's been fantastic in the last two games, but his fresh legs in the 14th and 15th weeks of the season haven't hurt. It's really not realistic not to take this into consideration. I remember Lee Suggs having a similar end to a season a few years back. And in both Pitt (against a really good rush defense) and Oakland (a pretty bad one) our defense played strong and our QBs did not turn the ball over. We played from ahead and were able to get the RBs a ton of carries where they racked up a ton of yards.

 

As for Jamal, the guy was a team leader and Mangini has to deal with locker room issues. He had to give Lewis every opportunity to succeed and really was limited in options. Harrison was limited in participation at practice the week following the Bengals game and had an inexcusable "ball security" lapse that cost the Browns a TD the other way (and the game considering the D otherwise pretty much shut down the Cincy offense). He had a pretty big fumble in the Oakland game as well.

 

Harrison deserves a ton of credit. He's hit the hole fast and taken advantage of this opportunity. Things that Mangini has done over the course of this season, however, has contributed to that success.

 

Hopefully, he keeps working so that he doesn't put the ball on the carpet.

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