Anyone Hear This On Sunday?

[Flugel]

During the game, one of the commentators was talking about someone's son who was a Center that had to face Eric Mangini when he was the starting Nose tackle for Ohio Wesleyan. Long story short, the kid that allegedly faced Mangini said Mangini was hands-down the best Nose Tackle he faced at that level of college football. No wonder why he's always been fond of the 3-4. Perhaps playing for the same college program BB played for was the first of many coincidences leading to better things for Mangini. There's so much more to this guy than the Cleveland media has ever cared to print.

 

Anyway, I normally can't stand Randy Cross but yesterday I enjoyed him quite a bit. He was saying Mike Holmgren was a GREAT hire for the Browns; and he thought Eric Mangini did a fantastic job with what he had to work with this year. If you would have told me earlier this year that this team could put together 3 wins in a row with Pitt being one of them - I would have thought you were outside your mind. I don't even look at our record any more. I'm just thrilled at the direction fo the team and the current nucleus that seem to be buying into the staff/game plans.

 

We've still gotta a ways to go obviously but there's a growing number of people that would be pissed if Mangini got fired. And BEFORE anyone corrects me about Mangini - keep in mind that firing him means NEW Head Coach hires new coaches. Result? A terrific STs coach like Seeley gets walking papers as do coaches like Bryan Cox and Rob Ryan. I guess I wouldn't have a hard time with a new OC; BUT we're running the ball down esophagii starting with Pittsburgh and the reality that teams don't have to defense the pass meaning there's about 8-9 guys in the box.

 

Do you want a vivid reminder of what a poorly coached team does? See Oakland Raiders giving our offense 15 yard penalties or jumping offsides so we're in 1st and 5. Last year, we were ALWAYS in 1st and 15 or 1st and 20. That's an IMPROVEMENT nobody ever acknowledges. Not only that, hasn't your buddy Flugel been asking HOW MANY times are we pinning opponents inside their 5 yard line this year in the punting game? How'd you like that Cribbs and McDonald tagteam to down the ball at the Oakland on 1 of our punts. We might be the best punting team in the league whether we have the backup or the starter.

 

Folks, I'd hate like Hell to part with Mangini and the Staff HE hired. I really think we got the right Head Coach; and a big part of that is all the coaches he has hired. Maybe Holmgren can be the BIGGEST help with finding us a competant QB that can increase what we do offensively. I think we're finding a running game we can all enjoy.

- Tom F. (Looking forward to having 11 picks instead of dealing with the 5 picks and 4 picks Savage left us with the last 2 drafts)

[Mark O]

I completely agree..

 

The fact that we're in the top 3 least penalized teams in the league shows a discipline that Mangini has been preaching since training camp. I think we're on the right track, I don't care who the wins have come against. Pittsburgh is on the verge of making the playoffs and we beat them. Cincinatti is among the top 4 or so teams in the AFC and we played them tough twice.

 

This team is moving in the right direction...I like the hiring of Holmgren but I hope that Mangini gets to stay.

[daydawg19]

I completely agree..

 

The fact that we're in the top 3 least penalized teams in the league shows a discipline that Mangini has been preaching since training camp. I think we're on the right track, I don't care who the wins have come against. Pittsburgh is on the verge of making the playoffs and we beat them. Cincinatti is among the top 4 or so teams in the AFC and we played them tough twice.

 

This team is moving in the right direction...I like the hiring of Holmgren but I hope that Mangini gets to stay.

 

 

I agree with both of you. FWIW.

[Gips]

I am still unconvinced we are moving in the right direction with run ,run ,run i dont really see mangini fitting into the new scheme of things but who knows...we should get mauled this sunday..run run run!

[Mark O]

If the running game is working why change it? How long have we questioned why other teams throw the ball against us at all when we can't stop the run or why they wouldn't pass every down when it's clear we can't cover anyone at various times over the last 10 seasons? Sometimes playcalling isn't that complicated...keep doing what works until they prove they can stop it.

 

 

[Flugel]

I am still unconvinced we are moving in the right direction with run ,run ,run i dont really see mangini fitting into the new scheme of things but who knows...we should get mauled this sunday..run run run!

 

Gips,

Nothing wrong with wanting to see exciting football again. We all do. Mark O gave a pretty good explanation of what we're seeing and why we're seeing it though. When we played the Bills, our passing game could only complete 2 of 17 throws. BOTH QBs really look the same here in the sense that a 48% completion rate is a GOOD day for them; especially if one ends up being a nice TD pass like DA threw. I think our best time to throw is if we find ourselves in a 2nd and 1 situation.

 

Ask yourself this question - who is a legit #1 WR on this roster? MoMass looks to be our BIG play guy; but he was really like the #2 receiver on his college team at Georgia to a true freshman named AJ Green last year. Stucky is the equivalent of a #3 Receiver but he has a little more experience than MoMass so they're both about the same. I think Stucky runs better routes at this time and he had the experience to strip the DB from a potential INT on 1 of DA's throws. MoMass is getting better but he has to learn to come back to the football and that corners in this league close on the ball way faster than guys in college. You can see they're working with him. His biggest adjustment might have been he no longer has Matt Stafford throwing him accurate ropes.

 

I don't think we have had the reliable passers to give us the pass, pass, run playcalling you want right now. Remember Kosar's first year? We had TWO 1000 yard rushers primarily because the young QB wasn't ready for pass, pass, run just yet. That was a classic example of you gotta crawl before you can walk. However, Bernie had the intelligence to accelerate the learning curve so that we went from a crawl to Bernie mastering Lindy Infante's offense in just his 2nd season. Unfortunately, I don't think either of the QBs we started this year have shown me Bernie's VISION or any shred of evidence they have his accuracy either. It's taken a while for our rookie OC to learn what he has. For example, he knows not to waste ANY throws on Robert Royal especially now that we have BETTER receiving TEs like Moore and Gaines to complete passes for 1st downs to. It's taken a while to add these guys into our game day lineup but it's upgraded the TE position from useless to useful.

- Tom F.

[Drunkandstoopid]

I am still unconvinced we are moving in the right direction with run ,run ,run i dont really see mangini fitting into the new scheme of things but who knows...we should get mauled this sunday..run run run!

 

My guess is the coaches want to see more passing, but for now the quickest thing to fix is the running game. With the running game you pretty much have the line, the handoff, and the running back to deal with, the receivers com into play, but it's more for extending the run...

 

With the passing game you've got the line, the running back to pick up blitzes and mis-direct the opposing D, the QB has to make the reads and deliver, and the receivers need make the proper reads and run correct routes - that's a lot to fix in one year.

 

So many people want a quick fix... example, the writer in another thread who can't accept a 3 win streak as positive and dwells on the 1 and 11 start... I'm kind of surprised the Browns are up to 4 and knocking on the door of 5 wins this seasons with all the changes that have been made.

 

I'd bet the team, and it's offense, isn't anywhere near a finished product yet.

 

Aloha,

 

Steve

[Alo]

We've still gotta a ways to go obviously but there's a growing number of people that would be pissed if Mangini got fired. And BEFORE anyone corrects me about Mangini - keep in mind that firing him means NEW Head Coach hires new coaches. Result? A terrific STs coach like Seeley gets walking papers as do coaches like Bryan Cox and Rob Ryan.

Seeley's probably the best coach of the three, but he's also the one least likely to be replaced by a new coach. Eric Mangini inherited ST coach Mike Westhoff in New York; considering how well our specials have played this year, I'm guessing that a new head coach would do the same with Seeley.

 

Do you want a vivid reminder of what a poorly coached team does? See Oakland Raiders giving our offense 15 yard penalties or jumping offsides so we're in 1st and 5. Last year, we were ALWAYS in 1st and 15 or 1st and 20. That's an IMPROVEMENT nobody ever acknowledges. Not only, hasn't your buddy Flugel been asking HOW MANY times are we pinning opponents inside their 5 yard line this year in the punting game? How'd you like that Cribbs and McDonald tagteam to down the ball at the Oakland on 1 of our punts. We might be the best punting team in the league whether we have the backup or the starter.

A lot of people here have been dissing the Raiders, both because we just beat him and because Cris Carter said Cable shouldn't be fired and Mangini should.

 

But if we're going to talk about how impressive it is that Mangini beat the Steelers (8-7), shouldn't we also note that the Raiders have beaten the Steelers, as well as the Eagles (11-4), Bengals (10-5), and Broncos (8-7)?

 

They've had a tougher schedule than us, gone through the same inconsistency issues at the quarterback position, and been without their top offensive lineman for most of the season, yet their record is better than ours. With that in mind, can we really say that our team has benefited from superior coaching? Or is their talent just better than ours?

 

All in all, I don't think the comparison reflects well on Mangini's year in Cleveland.

[hoorta]

I am still unconvinced we are moving in the right direction with run ,run ,run i dont really see mangini fitting into the new scheme of things but who knows...we should get mauled this sunday..run run run!

 

Actually our friends in Vegas are predicting a close game.

 

BTW, IIRC it was Don Shula who said- "If you're doing something and the other team can't stop it, keep on doing it until they DO stop it."

 

[ballpeen]

My guess is the coaches want to see more passing, but for now the quickest thing to fix is the running game.

 

 

My guess is you are wrong. My thinking is most coaches would never throw if their running game produced 1st downs and touchdowns.

 

Running the ball at will demoralizes a team and uses the clock which keeps the other teams scoring opportunities to a minimum.

 

[Flugel]

Seeley's probably the best coach of the three, but he's also the one least likely to be replaced by a new coach. Eric Mangini inherited ST coach Mike Westhoff in New York; considering how well our specials have played this year, I'm guessing that a new head coach would do the same with Seeley.

 

 

A lot of people here have been dissing the Raiders, both because we just beat him and because Cris Carter said Cable shouldn't be fired and Mangini should.

 

But if we're going to talk about how impressive it is that Mangini beat the Steelers (8-7), shouldn't we also note that the Raiders have beaten the Steelers, as well as the Eagles (11-4), Bengals (10-5), and Broncos (8-7)?

 

They've had a tougher schedule than us, gone through the same inconsistency issues at the quarterback position, and been without their top offensive lineman for most of the season, yet their record is better than ours. With that in mind, can we really say that our team has benefited from superior coaching? Or is their talent just better than ours?

 

All in all, I don't think the comparison reflects well on Mangini's year in Cleveland.

 

Thanks for the reply Alo. Some good points made like about WHOM the Raiders beat. BUT you have to admit on Sunday the Raiders played like a really poor coached team lacking discipline, unity and game day smarts. You almost have to wonder if they can beat all those good teams you spoke of - then how do they lose twice as many games as they win at the expense of crappy and injury depleted teams like the Washington Redskins as recently as December 13th. That wasn't even competitive.

 

IMO, the object for a team in transition is to improve and gain momentum. However, if we looked at our starting roster heading into the KC game - the ONLY returning starters from 2008 on offense were Joe Thomas, Eric Steinbach, and Lawrence Vickers. That's not giving a new coaching staff alot of continuity and lingering chemistry. Heading into our KC matchup, our defense only had 4 returning starters in uniform from the 2008 team (Williams, Wimbley, McDonald and Wright). It looks to me liek Williams and Wimbley are way betetr than they were 1 year ago at this time. We're imrpoving inspite of the following realities: we lost an All Pro Nose tackle, traded a former All Pro WR, lost D'Qwell (whom I wasn't worried about replacing because as we've seen he's replaceable), lost CJ Mosely, lost Robaire Smith (on and off), lost Pool, lost Zastudil, lost Steve Heiden, lost Jamal (this is an upgrade and my only beef with our staff), lost Rex Hadnot for considerable lengths, lost Quinn (not too much later than DA needing to be benched for lousy completion percentages).

 

Alot of staffs like our 2008 staff couldn't even consider winning with the injury volumes this team has endured. This staff has young guys motivated to play for these coaches. Alex Mack has turned in a very good season. You liked Rubin last year while I thought he stood straight up out of the stance too much for my liking. This year Rubin is playing with much better base and leverage because he's getting better coaching. Corey Williams actually looks useful in comparison to the disappointing 2008 season we saw from him. Marcus Benard wasn't even drafted - and I'm seeing him make alot of big plays at or behind the line of scrimmage. Trusnik came here with 1 expectation to help us out on STs and here he is getting in the starting LBer rotation. Schaefering was a practice squad guy giving us solid reps on the interior dline. We've got a bunch of no-names where I know their names all of a sudden as games have gone from TOUGH to watch to enjoyable.

 

I come across like I'm giving Mangini ALL the credit but I really like the majority of the coaches he hand selected. I'm prolly a little more patient with the rookie OC than others because inheriting the 2 QBs he got sentenced to as well the # of remaining starers I spoke of regarding the KC game - means I'm excited to see the type of growth where we rush for 286 yards on a day the opponet knew we could only complete 30% of our passes. That translates to alot of 9 in the box play run exclusively and we're still running the ball down peoples' throats. Another move that I think benefitted our rookie Center was seeing Fraley next to him at OG in various games, which can help out immensely if there's something he's never seen before when it's time to make the line calls.

 

I ask myself - WHY am I seeing the things I want to see all of a sudden? And why is this staff different than the last one? There's a plan that works in accordance with the Head Coach's philosophy. Defensive guys look like they LIKE playing for Bryan Cox and Rob Ryan and if they don't they're really good at faking it.

 

We're still missing some parts but I'm enjoying this team again. Understanding we've played ourselves out of an opportunity for Suh and Berry - what/who do you think we should draft in round 1? And why?

- Tom F.

[Alo]

Some good points here, Tom. I'll try to respond tomorrow when my brain's a little less fried.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

During the game, one of the commentators was talking about someone's son who was a Center that had to face Eric Mangini when he was the starting Nose tackle for Ohio Wesleyan. Long story short, the kid that allegedly faced Mangini said Mangini was hands-down the best Nose Tackle he faced at that level of college football. No wonder why he's always been fond of the 3-4. Perhaps playing for the same college program BB played for was the first of many coincidences leading to better things for Mangini. There's so much more to this guy than the Cleveland media has ever cared to print.

 

Anyway, I normally can't stand Randy Cross but yesterday I enjoyed him quite a bit. He was saying Mike Holmgren was a GREAT hire for the Browns; and he thought Eric Mangini did a fantastic job with what he had to work with this year. If you would have told me earlier this year that this team could put together 3 wins in a row with Pitt being one of them - I would have thought you were outside your mind. I don't even look at our record any more. I'm just thrilled at the direction fo the team and the current nucleus that seem to be buying into the staff/game plans.

 

We've still gotta a ways to go obviously but there's a growing number of people that would be pissed if Mangini got fired. And BEFORE anyone corrects me about Mangini - keep in mind that firing him means NEW Head Coach hires new coaches. Result? A terrific STs coach like Seeley gets walking papers as do coaches like Bryan Cox and Rob Ryan. I guess I wouldn't have a hard time with a new OC; BUT we're running the ball down esophagii starting with Pittsburgh and the reality that teams don't have to defense the pass meaning there's about 8-9 guys in the box.

 

Do you want a vivid reminder of what a poorly coached team does? See Oakland Raiders giving our offense 15 yard penalties or jumping offsides so we're in 1st and 5. Last year, we were ALWAYS in 1st and 15 or 1st and 20. That's an IMPROVEMENT nobody ever acknowledges. Not only that, hasn't your buddy Flugel been asking HOW MANY times are we pinning opponents inside their 5 yard line this year in the punting game? How'd you like that Cribbs and McDonald tagteam to down the ball at the Oakland on 1 of our punts. We might be the best punting team in the league whether we have the backup or the starter.

 

Folks, I'd hate like Hell to part with Mangini and the Staff HE hired. I really think we got the right Head Coach; and a big part of that is all the coaches he has hired. Maybe Holmgren can be the BIGGEST help with finding us a competant QB that can increase what we do offensively. I think we're finding a running game we can all enjoy.

- Tom F. (Looking forward to having 11 picks instead of dealing with the 5 picks and 4 picks Savage left us with the last 2 drafts)

 

 

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Westside Steve]

As far as the penalties I think the refs went a little overboard.

I'm no Raider fan but there really were some chickenshit calls.

 

WSS