Top ten reasons why it was a disastrous

[calfoxwc]

Let's see -

 

1. Frantically get back support for Obama from extreme left special interest - Make part of speech about changing "don't ask, don't tell" in

despised American military. CHECK

 

2. Frantically get back support from college kids - partly freebie, mostly freebie if they become part of you, your (new?) government.CHECK

 

3. Blame the Bush admin for your failures again. Wearing very,very THIN, Obamao. CHECK

 

4. Make an arrogant, smart ass speech overall, to garner more support and energize the Dem Leftists in Congress who lost their super majority. CHECK

 

5. Make an arrogant, smartass partisan attack on Republicans again, as obstructionists... when they had no ability to stop anything. Then,

appeal for bipartisanship and the end of smartass partisan attacks. CHECK

 

6. Refuse to admit that the current health bill is a gigantic Chavez like, power grab, and it doesn't matter that

it hurts those who DO have coverage, and still will NOT make insurance available to about 13-18 million Americans who don't have it, including Americans who end up LOSING their great coverage. CHECK

 

7. Do an impression of an arrogant, smart ass, corrupt somebeech Chavez pouty pouty about the loss of momentum in deceiving

people and getting power over them via "man made" global warming frauds coming to light. CHECK

 

8. Say some nice things that you don't mean, to try to get back that "let me do anything I want" charisma love. Ain't happenin, Obamao. CHECK

 

9. Say nice things about our country, and our military, while you have denigrated our country overseas, and you put our Navy Seals on trial,

on the fraudulent sayso of al quaida operatives, who are trained to fraudulently sayso exactly like they did. CHECK

 

10. Say more stupid lies like "lookee, we did something really quick and we saved a bijillion jobs that otherwise would have been lost" CHECK LOL

[steel88]

Alright I'll humor you lol

Let's see -

 

1. Frantically get back support for Obama from extreme left special interest - Make part of speech about changing "don't ask, don't tell" in

despised American military. CHECK. This is one of the things he originally campaigned about I don't think he lost support from the extreme left

2. Frantically get back support from college kids - partly freebie, mostly freebie if they become part of you, your (new?) government.CHECK. Again one of his selling points was to the younger crowd and it had to do with student loans

 

3. Blame the Bush admin for your failures again. Wearing very,very THIN, Obamao. CHECK. He's only been in office a year what exactly could he have done in that time period?

4. Make an arrogant, smart ass speech overall, to garner more support and energize the Dem Leftists in Congress who lost their super majority. CHECK. opinion. there was a reason the dems had super majority to begin with

5. Make an arrogant, smartass partisan attack on Republicans again, as obstructionists... when they had no ability to stop anything. Then,

appeal for bipartisanship and the end of smartass partisan attacks. CHECK. they have been obstructionists. What he's been asking for is that if you don't like the idea's we have by all means come up with a better one

 

6. Refuse to admit that the current health bill is a gigantic Chavez like, power grab, and it doesn't matter that

it hurts those who DO have coverage, and still will NOT make insurance available to about 13-18 million Americans who don't have it, including Americans who end up LOSING their great coverage. CHECK. Ill never understand why people don't think helping each other is a good idea

7. Do an impression of an arrogant, smart ass, corrupt somebeech Chavez pouty pouty about the loss of momentum in deceiving

people and getting power over them via "man made" global warming frauds coming to light. CHECK. global warming is a natural thing but there is evidence that we have sped it up considerably

 

8. Say some nice things that you don't mean, to try to get back that "let me do anything I want" charisma love. Ain't happenin, Obamao. CHECK. opinion, but ill give you points for being funny

 

9. Say nice things about our country, and our military, while you have denigrated our country overseas, and you put our Navy Seals on trial,

on the fraudulent sayso of al quaida operatives, who are trained to fraudulently sayso exactly like they did. CHECK

 

10. Say more stupid lies like "lookee, we did something really quick and we saved a bijillion jobs that otherwise would have been lost" CHECK LOL

 

[Mr. T]

Sounds like you have made up excuses for the future 1 term president.

 

 

Within 2 years who will admit they voted for him?

 

 

I thought it was funny how he contradicted himself by saying the reason we are in this recession is due in part to "W's" tax cuts, then he says to pull out of this recession we will have to lower taxes?

 

 

Say What?

 

The man speaks with a forked tongue.

[calfoxwc]

This is one of the things he originally campaigned about I don't think he lost support from the extreme left

********************************

Wrong. He was catching hell from the left because he waited a whole year, before deciding to alienate most of America

and most all our military on this stupid ass issue.

********************************

Again one of his selling points was to the younger crowd and it had to do with student loans

********************************

Again, he already spent those $$$$$ on phoney, gigantic spending sprees, which made a lot of his most ardent supporters very rich.

The younger crowd is disenchanted with him. They are smart, and they see who he really is. Not good. Look at Mass.

********************************

He's only been in office a year what exactly could he have done in that time period?

**********************************

You're kidding, right? He could have STOPPED all the stupid, worthless spending, he could have REFUSED to denigrate our own country

overseas, he could have STOPPED the miranda rights to terrorists overseas, and he could have STOPPED the civilian court trials with PAID ATTORNEYS, he could have REFUSED TO attack the Supreme Court, He could...

 

you DO get the picture, right? Just humoring you too.

**********************************

opinion. there was a reason the dems had super majority to begin with

**********************************

Yes, there was. But there is a reason why he is dramatically losing support all over this country. See my "bark falling off the ugly OBama tree"

thread. Read it. Look at the graphs. There is a reason why, despite complaints about Bush, that Obamao is the last person we should have

had become president of our country. Hell, he doesn't even LIKE our country.

********************************I*

they have been obstructionists. What he's been asking for is that if you don't like the idea's we have by all means come up with a better one

*********************************

ah, baloney. How could they obstruct anything when the Dems had a SUPER MAJORITY. Look up what that means. It means

they had no way to obstruct.

 

And, they DID have a lot of ideas. They were locked out of all deliberations by the Dems. The Republican better ideas are POSTING ON THE FREAKIN NET. Check it out. Then feel free to come back and say you're sorry. GGG

*********************************

 

Ill never understand why people don't think helping each other is a good idea

 

**********************************

OH, now I know you aren't being serious. You're just playing a silly comedic devil's advocate. I think...

 

How is making millions of people who have great health insurance lose their health insurance, helping people?

 

How is making millions of people who have really great health insurances pay cadillac taxes?

 

Why did he and the rest of the leftists give the unions and certain states exemptions from being affected, if it was

such a great thing? Think about that, while you're trying to be silly.

 

How is NOT COVERING about 12 million people who don't have insurance, despite this bill, helping THEM?

 

You do know, that they admit that millions won't be helped by this bill, right?

 

You do know that they admit, that millions will end up losing their health insurance, right? How is that helping them? It isn't. It's just a gigantic, leftist power grab.

******************************

global warming is a natural thing but there is evidence that we have sped it up considerably

 

*****************************

Hah. It was cherry picked, intentionally distorted to prove a theory was fact for political expediency. It was a big political gambit full of

lies. Read our posts on the subject.

********************************

opinion, but ill give you points for being funny

*********************************

Well, thank you, but I don't think the Supreme Court respects him anymore, and THAT is no joke. I forgot that debacle in his speech.

Why not just have your Acorn black militants and SEIU union thugs whack those Supreme Court justices on their knees, Obamao?

***********************************

You surely were just being an ornery cuss, you didn't have any comments on the last two:

 

But, thanks for playin...@@

 

9. Say nice things about our country, and our military, while you have denigrated our country overseas, and you put our Navy Seals on trial,

on the fraudulent sayso of al quaida operatives, who are trained to fraudulently sayso exactly like they did. CHECK

 

10. Say more stupid lies like "lookee, we did something really quick and we saved a bijillion jobs that otherwise would have been lost" CHECK LOL

[VaporTrail]

Yes, there was. But there is a reason why he is dramatically losing support all over this country. See my "bark falling off the ugly OBama tree"

thread. Read it. Look at the graphs. There is a reason why, despite complaints about Bush, that Obamao is the last person we should have

had become president of our country. Hell, he doesn't even LIKE our country.

 

Just because he disagrees with your personal beliefs doesn't mean he doesn't "like our country," as you put it. If you really believe he dislikes the country, I hope you felt that about every other president, EVER.

 

You say that he blames the Bush administration for everything, yet people like you are the same ones that blame Clinton for the deficit that W. made. In case you've forgotten, Clinton actually decreased the amount of debt we had. Oh, but you people say that he did it because of Reagan's policies.

 

I don't get how people believe that.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt...debt.2C_and_GDP

 

Also, if you believe that humans aren't a factor in global warming, then I believe you are mistaken. I could show you papers and graphs and charts, just like you could to me, but it doesn't matter. I urge you to read this study though, has nothing to do with global warming.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90701082720.htm

 

Cal, you just seem like one of those people who thinks that being loud makes your opinion correct. You appear to be very closed-minded and hate anything on the left. It's ok, I'm definitely biased against the right, though not as extremely as you are. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about you, but I've never really posted on this forum. I guess we'll see.

[steel88]

This is one of the things he originally campaigned about I don't think he lost support from the extreme left

********************************

Wrong. He was catching hell from the left because he waited a whole year, before deciding to alienate most of America

and most all our military on this stupid ass issue.

********************************

Again one of his selling points was to the younger crowd and it had to do with student loans

********************************

Again, he already spent those $$$$$ on phoney, gigantic spending sprees, which made a lot of his most ardent supporters very rich.

The younger crowd is disenchanted with him. They are smart, and they see who he really is. Not good. Look at Mass.

********************************

He's only been in office a year what exactly could he have done in that time period?

**********************************

You're kidding, right? He could have STOPPED all the stupid, worthless spending, he could have REFUSED to denigrate our own country

overseas, he could have STOPPED the miranda rights to terrorists overseas, and he could have STOPPED the civilian court trials with PAID ATTORNEYS, he could have REFUSED TO attack the Supreme Court, He could...

 

you DO get the picture, right? Just humoring you too.

**********************************

opinion. there was a reason the dems had super majority to begin with

**********************************

Yes, there was. But there is a reason why he is dramatically losing support all over this country. See my "bark falling off the ugly OBama tree"

thread. Read it. Look at the graphs. There is a reason why, despite complaints about Bush, that Obamao is the last person we should have

had become president of our country. Hell, he doesn't even LIKE our country.

********************************I*

they have been obstructionists. What he's been asking for is that if you don't like the idea's we have by all means come up with a better one

*********************************

ah, baloney. How could they obstruct anything when the Dems had a SUPER MAJORITY. Look up what that means. It means

they had no way to obstruct.

 

And, they DID have a lot of ideas. They were locked out of all deliberations by the Dems. The Republican better ideas are POSTING ON THE FREAKIN NET. Check it out. Then feel free to come back and say you're sorry. GGG

*********************************

 

Ill never understand why people don't think helping each other is a good idea

 

**********************************

OH, now I know you aren't being serious. You're just playing a silly comedic devil's advocate. I think...

 

How is making millions of people who have great health insurance lose their health insurance, helping people?

 

How is making millions of people who have really great health insurances pay cadillac taxes?

 

Why did he and the rest of the leftists give the unions and certain states exemptions from being affected, if it was

such a great thing? Think about that, while you're trying to be silly.

 

How is NOT COVERING about 12 million people who don't have insurance, despite this bill, helping THEM?

 

You do know, that they admit that millions won't be helped by this bill, right?

 

You do know that they admit, that millions will end up losing their health insurance, right? How is that helping them? It isn't. It's just a gigantic, leftist power grab.

******************************

global warming is a natural thing but there is evidence that we have sped it up considerably

 

*****************************

Hah. It was cherry picked, intentionally distorted to prove a theory was fact for political expediency. It was a big political gambit full of

lies. Read our posts on the subject.

********************************

opinion, but ill give you points for being funny

*********************************

Well, thank you, but I don't think the Supreme Court respects him anymore, and THAT is no joke. I forgot that debacle in his speech.

Why not just have your Acorn black militants and SEIU union thugs whack those Supreme Court justices on their knees, Obamao?

***********************************

You surely were just being an ornery cuss, you didn't have any comments on the last two:

 

But, thanks for playin...@@

 

9. Say nice things about our country, and our military, while you have denigrated our country overseas, and you put our Navy Seals on trial,

on the fraudulent sayso of al quaida operatives, who are trained to fraudulently sayso exactly like they did. CHECK

 

10. Say more stupid lies like "lookee, we did something really quick and we saved a bijillion jobs that otherwise would have been lost" CHECK LOL

 

ROFLMAO! I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say you listen to Rush Limbaugh and/or Glenn Beck, and with that I bid this forum on the browns board Adieu

[Mr. T]

Apparently the tone of the whole speech had the tone of him scolding the American people.

 

 

It seems as if he is pissed off because Scott Brown won in Mass. And Cal has pegged everything well, I am sure all of the twenty something liked his Free Candy when it came to student loans. If all you see in a politician is what do I get, maybe you should just stay home and collect a welfare check. Why bother with college.

 

 

Obama's biggest down fall is that he does not respect the average americans opinion. he is a self serving socialist at best, all puffed up feeling as if he is a king of the world.

 

 

Whats the current poll? only 29% of the people like the bum. IMO he will make Jimmy Carter look like a legend before he is done.

 

 

And why the hell does he conttinue to say I inherited this problem, damn the boy is in denial he has been president for a whole year and with a Monopoly with the senate and house, he can do whatever the freak he wants to but has done nothing to really stimulate the economy. His main objective is social engineering the american people.

 

 

Well the votes are in Obama, and the people have spoken and rejected your policies.

[osusev]

...... seriosly its been ONE year coming into a major recession, banking/wall street fallout, 2 active occupations to stabilize and maintain, worldwide PR issues surrounding our moral authority and cowboy politics

 

wall street is back to normal levels, spearheading potentially the most entrenched industry.... insurance, dealing with permanent legacy jobs loss affecting unemployment, lower GDP and collectables thanks to recession facing skyrocketing defecits....... forced into spending and investing into ourselves. etc etc etc

 

one year...... relax it not over yet..... lets see year 3

[Kosar_For_President]

one year...... relax it not over yet..... lets see year 3

 

Ok Sev. What is the bet here, lol. After year 3......

 

Steelers jersey like Obama or put of Bush sticker on your hybrid?

 

The first one is out of the question.

[calfoxwc]

Just because he disagrees with your personal beliefs doesn't mean he doesn't "like our country," as you put it. If you really believe he dislikes the country, I hope you felt that about every other president, EVER. Vaportrail

*************************************************

Nope. Big time wrongie. You see, Obamao has apologized to other countries for us being so bad. He doesn't like

our system of government, he wants it bigger, far more gigantic, and he wants it running every freakin thing.

He even lowered the boom on our Supreme Court. SUPREME COURT. He tried to intimidate them, ridicule them for not

voting the way his highness wanted them to vote.

HE CAMPAIGNED TO CHANGE THE FACE OF AMERICA. See? he doesn't even like our face. He wants it to be his face. For good.

Oh, and he doesn't like our Constitution either. Check out those youtube clips of him criticizing it.

***************************************************

 

You say that he blames the Bush administration for everything, yet people like you are the same ones that blame Clinton for the deficit that W. made. In case you've forgotten, Clinton actually decreased the amount of debt we had. Oh, but you people say that he did it because of Reagan's policies.

 

********************************

I never blamed Clinton. I simply didn't like the deficit W. made, but I understood that it ballooned because of our fighting the war on terror, and

upgrading our security, etc, etc, after 9/11.

 

*********************************

I don't get how people believe that.

*******************************

Now, don't go "you people" on me. I'm just me. Though, I have actually been shocked to say stuff on the board, or to friends,

and then I see Glenn Beck talk in nearly the same terms once in a while, and my wonderful cute Wife turns to me and says "okay,

that's weird, you just said that over at my brother's house last week. That's pretty good. "

*********************************************************************

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt...debt.2C_and_GDP

 

*********************************

Bush's deficit is a bad 450 billion.

 

Obama's deficit is ALREADY projected at 1.35 TRILLION.

 

I say, I understood the deficit, but I didn't like it. I say, our fed gov can spend the money they get, then they

can go jump in a lake after that, unless it's a war we have to go fight.

 

************************************

 

Also, if you believe that humans aren't a factor in global warming, then I believe you are mistaken. I could show you papers and graphs and charts, just like you could to me, but it doesn't matter. I urge you to read this study though, has nothing to do with global warming.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90701082720.htm

 

***********************************************************

It's a great study. I can see it's validity on both sides of the fence. I am more analytical than that, I think. The truth is what it is, I try to determine what that truth is, and I won't go along with baloney. Sometimes, I have to change what I believe, but I'm pretty freakin stubborn

to believe something in the first place, that my head and my heart have a fairly good track record.

 

Like, I believed I was right that Bush W. was going to be a great pres his second term. I was really wrong.

 

And, I really believed all these years, that no president would EVER make Jimmy Carter look like he wasn't the worst pres in my lifetime.

But, because of Obamao, I was wrong about that too. @@

 

************************************************

Cal, you just seem like one of those people who thinks that being loud makes your opinion correct. You appear to be very closed-minded and hate anything on the left. It's ok, I'm definitely biased against the right, though not as extremely as you are. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about you, but I've never really posted on this forum. I guess we'll see.

************************************************

Thanks for visiting, you should hang out here and discuss stuff. I appreciate you not calling me dirty names, or putting down my intel etc.

We've had enough of all that here.

 

I'm really not loud. Meet me in person, Steve has, and I'm a pretty fun, easy going guy, not loud at all. But, in all my typin, maybe I come across that way. I just really feel that my values are the values I believe in, and I'm not giving them up just because somebody says I'm a

big stupid butthead.

 

I am staunch in my beliefs, yes. But you know, when I was a kid, well, a long bunch of years ago... ahem... I loved this country even then.

When I was a kid, I was reading my Dad's Blue jacket manual, his Navy basic training manual. I learned from him to dearly love our country,

our freedom that was fought for, and men died for.

 

It still means the world to me today.

 

Oh, I knew it wasn't perfect. But I have always bled Red, White and Blue. I went to Kent State, and even when I was listening to profs who

despised our country, I would still be one of a few who disagreed.

 

I love our flag and what it stands for. Some hated our flag and despised our country, because Bush or Reagan was pres.

 

My beliefs don't change because Obamao is president. I don't understand the left. Am I biased against the left? Yes, to be honest.

 

The left seems to typify emotionalist angst for political expediency. There are thousands of examples.

 

Mostly, the Right doesn't burn our flag, spit on our flag, when a liberal dem is president.

 

but, the left hated our flag, demeaned our country at every possible op, demeaned our military, ridiculed everything in sight.

 

But, now that Obama is pres, all that is gone.

 

That is how I see the left.

 

The right knows we are Constitutionally allowed to have our guns, and freedom of worship.

 

The left doesn't care, they want to disarm us, take em all away, and they want to kick the freedom of worship out of schools.

 

The right generally doesn't condone the wanton murder of unborn children as an encouraged common "choice", regardless of how

flippant the reasons could be.

 

The left, well, you know. They don't care about the wanton murder of unborn children.

 

The left attacks the children of conservative politicians, has SEIU goon sqauds roughing up innocent conservatives.

 

The left has ACORN.

 

Read the last three, and note, that the Right is..well, to me, "right".

 

The left is anti-status quo to crazed faults.

 

Marriage IS between a man and a woman.

 

The left thinks marriage is anything that occurs, same sexes of humans, even regardless of age,

maybe even human - sheep,

 

The right does not.

 

Yeah, I think I'm not loud, but I know what is right, and decent, and honorable, and true.

 

And I won't back down from that, and I will defend my country, and have, and I'll believe what I believe

 

unless I'm really wrong.

 

It's just that the left makes no sense to me to get me to think they have a case. That's all.

[VaporTrail]

First off, awesome response. I WAS trying to get a rise out of you. I'll be more respectful than 'you people' from here on. That being said, I do have some problems.

 

I am staunch in my beliefs, yes. But you know, when I was a kid, well, a long bunch of years ago... ahem... I loved this country even then.

When I was a kid, I was reading my Dad's Blue jacket manual, his Navy basic training manual. I learned from him to dearly love our country,

our freedom that was fought for, and men died for.

 

It still means the world to me today.

 

Oh, I knew it wasn't perfect. But I have always bled Red, White and Blue. I went to Kent State, and even when I was listening to profs who

despised our country, I would still be one of a few who disagreed.

 

I love our flag and what it stands for. Some hated our flag and despised our country, because Bush or Reagan was pres.

 

Agreed. Father was Army, dad was a Marine. I don't feel like getting my face blown off for a cause I don't really support (read: pussy). However, I do love my country too, and I feel obligated to the troops that are willing to risk their asses. I worked for the Air Force last year in laser research, the stuff our lab did was unclassified, but our experiments on the qualities of lasers get used in stuff that saves lives. EOCM. I still haven't graduated, but there is a very real possibility that my employer on graduation will be the Air Force or NASA. I'd like to think that that's worth something.

 

My beliefs don't change because Obamao is president. I don't understand the left. Am I biased against the left? Yes, to be honest.

 

The left seems to typify emotionalist angst for political expediency. There are thousands of examples.

 

I think the same can be said about the right, for different reasons.

 

Mostly, the Right doesn't burn our flag, spit on our flag, when a liberal dem is president.

 

but, the left hated our flag, demeaned our country at every possible op, demeaned our military, ridiculed everything in sight.

 

As much as I don't like to see my flag burning, the expression is protected by the Constitution. It might be deplorable to both you and me, but they sure as hell have a right to it.

 

But, now that Obama is pres, all that is gone.

 

That is how I see the left.

 

No, there's just a different type of idiocy that has taken its place. Teabagging. Those people are just as deplorable, in my opinion.

 

The right knows we are Constitutionally allowed to have our guns, and freedom of worship.

 

The left doesn't care, they want to disarm us, take em all away,

 

I would agree. Most people on the left hold this position. However, I have to agree with you on it being bullshit. I mean, it's the second amendment ever made, I'd say it's pretty important. I really don't think Obama's gonna do anything with your guns though. I'd own one, but being poor and living on a college campus, it'd be a really unpopular buy for me. But I honestly can't see any type of unpopular gun legislation being passed during his term, can you? I'd hope that people saw the pointlessness of Clinton's Assault Rifle Ban.

 

and they want to kick the freedom of worship out of schools.

 

I disagree. There are no qualms with people that wish to pray before class starts. However, when prayer becomes official school policy, that is a problem. Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. Personally, I am an atheist. I don't believe in a personal God, and if a school pushed religion on a child of mine, I have a huge problem with that, and they would catch hell. How would you feel if the school your kids attended thought it a good idea to have a traditional Islamic prayer every morning before class? I'm assuming you're Christian, and I'm also assuming it wouldn't sit well. If you want prayer to be involved in your child's schooling, then send them to a parochial school, there are a ton of them (I graduated from Lake Catholic).

 

 

 

[VaporTrail]

The right generally doesn't condone the wanton murder of unborn children as an encouraged common "choice", regardless of how

flippant the reasons could be.

 

The left, well, you know. They don't care about the wanton murder of unborn children.

 

I agree with that. I mean, my view of it is kind of xxxxed up. I was almost aborted. Everyone wanted my mom to have an abortion, but she wouldn't do it. I'm very lucky to be alive, and I owe it all to her. That being said, I still think a woman has a right to not bear a child. And I really think that the republican party focuses too much on that single issue to get the vote of the uneducated religious right. To me, there is nothing more infuriating than knowing that the Church doesn't support abortion, and strongly encourages people to vote that way. Then, there are people who are so ignorant of what is going on around them, that abortion is the biggest issue they have on presidential elections.

 

I wish I could say that the educated would realize that the two topics that will have the biggest impact on them are foreign and economic policies. However, I'm going to school and I've met engineers that don't give a shit about the impact a "war" will have on the economy. Do I care about the wanton murder of unborn children? Somewhat. I don't feel that a decision either way will have much of an impact on life. I just have a huge problem with people that make abortion a bigger deal than foreign and economic policy.

 

The left attacks the children of conservative politicians, has SEIU goon sqauds roughing up innocent conservatives.

 

And the right wing media doesn't do this? Remember Michelle Obama's "Terrorist Fist Jab?"

 

The left has ACORN.

 

Don't know enough about this to make a comment.

 

Read the last three, and note, that the Right is..well, to me, "right".

 

The left is anti-status quo to crazed faults.

 

The biggest group the republican party had in the last election was the crazed religious right. People that claimed that the US is a "religious nation" and that they KNEW Obama was a terrorist and a Muslim. It's called separation of church and state. And if that's what you consider the status quo, then with all due respect, eff that noise.

 

Marriage IS between a man and a woman.

 

The left thinks marriage is anything that occurs, same sexes of humans, even regardless of age,

maybe even human - sheep,

 

The right does not.

 

Might be because of my lack of respect for religion, but I don't see how the foundations of the world will come apart when fags are allowed to marry. I mean, if you're against government intervention in most things, why is this an exception? It doesn't make any sense, it is only because it is aligned with your personal beliefs. It really doesn't make a difference to me. If the church doesn't want to support this bigoted belief, fine, they can do whatever they want. But why should the government alienate its own people when it would make their lives easier. I just don't see at all how giving gays the right to marry will ruin ANYTHING.

[calfoxwc]

First off, awesome response. I WAS trying to get a rise out of you. I'll be more respectful than 'you people' from here on. That being said, I do have some problems.

****************************

Oh, you are cruel. LOL

*****************************

Agreed. Father was Army, dad was a Marine. I don't feel like getting my face blown off for a cause I don't really support (read: pussy). However, I do love my country too, and I feel obligated to the troops that are willing to risk their asses. I worked for the Air Force last year in laser research, the stuff our lab did was unclassified, but our experiments on the qualities of lasers get used in stuff that saves lives. EOCM. I still haven't graduated, but there is a very real possibility that my employer on graduation will be the Air Force or NASA. I'd like to think that that's worth something.

****************************

Excellent. Are you ever working at a lab at Wright-Patterson AFB? I have some ancient fishin advice for ya. Don't know if those lakes are there anymore... GGG

*****************************

As much as I don't like to see my flag burning, the expression is protected by the Constitution. It might be deplorable to both you and me, but they sure as hell have a right to it.

*****************************

Sure they do. But it affects their crediblility to me. I used to sit in the Kent State student union in those couple of years after May 4, 1970.

(I was there that day visiting the campus with a friend.... @@) One day one of the more prominent anti-war hippies needed a seat, and asked me

if he could sit down. I said "sure".

We ended up having a great converstation. He actually was a sincere guy, whose Dad was in the war. I understood his concern.

After all, we were talking the debacle of Vietnam, right?

At one point, he leaned toward me and said, "you know man, I despite some of these fools. It isn't Nixons' war. It's LBJ's war. But they

lean Democratic. How dishonest is that?"

 

He was good friends with another young lady I met another time. I had sat down, after asking if it was okay... she was crying. Her brother was in 'Nam, and she desperately protested the war.

 

Remember they all went to Washington DC? Well, they raised all this money to go in buses. And while they were there. the "leaders" of the antiwar

rallies trip didn't go to the rally. They spent the money on their own party. Those kids had to wire home for $$$ to get back... etc....

 

and after that, they lost all cred, and this young lady's tears rolled down her face. They didn't care about our troops, her brother. She

was so betrayed, and felt like a fool.

 

Sometimes, some May 4th's, I remember that story. I've always hoped her brother came back. So, yeah, as much as I had no respect

for the anti war movement - I always deemed it counter-productive to the alleged effort to end the war. Some of them just wanted to raise hell,

and they alienated the middle class, actually delaying the end of the war.

 

But they did have a right to freedom of expression. But not burning down the ROTC building, which a few of them did do.

************************************

No, there's just a different type of idiocy that has taken its place. Teabagging. Those people are just as deplorable, in my opinion.

************************************

Wait, you lost me. You defended the flag burners as exercizing their freedom of speech, but you deplore the tea baggers? What?

 

I went to a tea party. It was great, speakers, and a few thousand of the rest of us Americans who are concerned, very concerned.

 

One young lady was crying. She was holding a sign that said "This Obama is not the one I voted for"

 

You should go with me sometime. It's far more wholesome a freedom of speech, than the far more nasty, hateful "kill your parents" crowd.

 

That's an old Jerry Rubin quote, you know, from a speech he made at an anti-war rally at Kent one year.

**********************************

I would agree. Most people on the left hold this position. However, I have to agree with you on it being bullshit. I mean, it's the second amendment ever made, I'd say it's pretty important. I really don't think Obama's gonna do anything with your guns though. I'd own one, but being poor and living on a college campus, it'd be a really unpopular buy for me. But I honestly can't see any type of unpopular gun legislation being passed during his term, can you? I'd hope that people saw the pointlessness of Clinton's Assault Rifle Ban.

**********************************

GGG, I gotcha. There's these common sense restrictions on freedoms, or it violates other's freedoms... but I did post

legislation, several of them, being forwarded for consideration in NY.

**********************************

I disagree. There are no qualms with people that wish to pray before class starts. However, when prayer becomes official school policy, that is a problem. Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. Personally, I am an atheist. I don't believe in a personal God, and if a school pushed religion on a child of mine, I have a huge problem with that, and they would catch hell. How would you feel if the school your kids attended thought it a good idea to have a traditional Islamic prayer every morning before class? I'm assuming you're Christian, and I'm also assuming it wouldn't sit well. If you want prayer to be involved in your child's schooling, then send them to a parochial school, there are a ton of them (I graduated from Lake Catholic).

*************************************

Ah, excellent reply, man. But, I'm talking freedom of religious expression in schools. Like, a school group of kids wanting to read their Bible

during an open reading study hall. That has nothing to do with school mandated religious official religious propaganda. I agree with you entirely -

but I paraphase this way:

 

Freedom of Religion shall not be infringed by Freedom to not be Religious. Those kids have every right to be Christians and read their Bible, in a setting where there is an open reading study hall... just as Jewish kids/Muslim kids/etc.

 

As always, we're talking about legit religions here. Surely there will be some who will try to wreck the system with satanic crap, etc, in that case,

society has a right to protect their children from the evil of that. Where do you draw the line, you will ask... the answer is us.

 

Freedom of religion, Freedom to not be religious, Freedom of the adults to protect their children from extremist, dangerous and threatening behavior.

 

Too much freedom means others have the freedom to take other's freedom.

 

Wait, I have to quit this, I haven't had my coffee yet.... @@

***************************************************

[calfoxwc]

I agree with that. I mean, my view of it is kind of xxxxed up. I was almost aborted. Everyone wanted my mom to have an abortion, but she wouldn't do it. I'm very lucky to be alive, and I owe it all to her. That being said, I still think a woman has a right to not bear a child. And I really think that the republican party focuses too much on that single issue to get the vote of the uneducated religious right. To me, there is nothing more infuriating than knowing that the Church doesn't support abortion, and strongly encourages people to vote that way. Then, there are people who are so ignorant of what is going on around them, that abortion is the biggest issue they have on presidential elections.

 

I wish I could say that the educated would realize that the two topics that will have the biggest impact on them are foreign and economic policies. However, I'm going to school and I've met engineers that don't give a shit about the impact a "war" will have on the economy. Do I care about the wanton murder of unborn children? Somewhat. I don't feel that a decision either way will have much of an impact on life. I just have a huge problem with people that make abortion a bigger deal than foreign and economic policy.

*************************************************************

Thanks for sharing, that's a terrific story. Try to not be infuriated with churches, their obvious focus IS morality, it's what they do. After all, they have the freedom to prioritze as they see fit, too. We'll all just have to be tolerant of that.

 

I am a staunch Christian. I know, in my heart, that God is there. But, I couldn't care less to go to church. I am totally non-religious. In my college days, I'd go to Bible studies with my friends, some who were married. And, I was famous for a few of them having their coffee spit right back out,

when I'd say stuff like "going to church is really great, unless there are people there" and "I feel a lot closer to God when I'm up on

a mountain, than in a church of bickering people. I'll stay with the outdoors"

And my wonderful cute Wife? She was a pk, her Dad is a retired Presbyterian minister. But after a bad, nasty church split, she isn't religious either.

We can go to church once in a decade, but we have far more fun being together without that.

 

Having spiritual beliefs, IOW's, does not have to translate into religion. Oh, here's another one - some of my friends would look at me at Bible studies,

and say "Is Mike going to say anything, or is it okay if I take a drink of coffee and eat my cookie?"

 

... "Religion is the worst thing to ever happen to Christianity". That one was always my favorite. It's a wonder that my friends kept

inviting me for their socials... LOL

 

Oh, yeah, I am so bad. LOL

*****************************************************************

And the right wing media doesn't do this? Remember Michelle Obama's "Terrorist Fist Jab?"

*****************************************************************

SEIU is a union, and their goon squads have roughed up innocent people. One of them, was a retired black minister

who was selling American flag pins, etc, and was a conservative. They beat him up. It's on youtube. Honest.

 

And, I referred to kids, like Palin's kids, W.'s kids. Michelle Obama, who I am pretty mean to, is a politically active adult.

 

The kids should always be respected, and left alone. I've seen the left riducle Palin's kids, even Trig, the little boy with Down's Syndrome.

 

Even distorted photos.

 

That is far more than vicious. And it typifies what I'm meaning here. You don't see the right mocking Obamao's kids.

 

The right tends to have important values that they stick to, and political expediency doesn't change those important values.

****************************************************************

Acorn - the community organizing, liberal/leftist/corrupt political group, that was indicted on flagrant election fraud.

SEIU - wow. You should read up on THIS union. Not good by anybody's estimation, I believe.

 

The whacko religious right, (ie Pat Robertson, Ernest Angley, BLECH) are not the primary part of anything. It's a fringe.

 

Not a widely well-thought of fringe. Very much stupid minority such as the communist party USA, which heartily supported Obamao in the election,and still does.

 

Neither is a huge part of either side. But, with the Communist Party, it's a lunatic fringe. So is the lunatic super wacko religious right.

 

But, the that religious minority is demonized as the primary part of conservativism to demonize it.

 

That's another thing. You don't read much about how the communist party USA LOVES Obama.

**************************************************

Might be because of my lack of respect for religion, but I don't see how the foundations of the world will come apart when fags are allowed to marry. I mean, if you're against government intervention in most things, why is this an exception? It doesn't make any sense, it is only because it is aligned with your personal beliefs. It really doesn't make a difference to me. If the church doesn't want to support this bigoted belief, fine, they can do whatever they want. But why should the government alienate its own people when it would make their lives easier. I just don't see at all how giving gays the right to marry will ruin ANYTHING.

*************************************************

I think it would be cool to have you and Steve come out to the farm some evening on a weekend, and we could sit around our campfire,

and talk about stuff. GGG

 

The easiest way for me to explain is - society has a right to protect itself. Without some shell/structure of society, we cannot thrive, nor

continue to exist.

 

Gays shouldn't lose rights because they are gay. I don't really know what gay is... I imagine it's a biological/psycholgical anomaly, but what the heck do I know?

 

I know this - gays exist, and it isn't natural. Look at the history of mankind. It exists because of the union of men and women.

 

So, arbitrarily, I have history on my side of this whole biz... @@

 

But unlimited freedom, is no freedom at all, because other's have a right to infringe/deny other's freedoms. So, there are resetrictions, there are

 

societal structures deemed necessary by society, to protect itself, and it's members.

 

Underage children are protected. Parents have a right to teach their own children their own values, morally. Gays have no right to destroy the freedom of parents teaching their own kids their own values, via our education system, nor via legal justification of something that doesn't exist,

morally, biologically. The fact that they are gay isn't a crime. But to try to legitimize a new definition of marriage, and legally mandate that the Bible

be trashed as far as marriage definition goes, is actually the government mandating a new religion or sorts.

 

To destroy our definition of marriage, is just another devious, leftwing political attack on America's status quo. They are free to be gay, but not free to destroy other's freedoms, to destroy our society's fabric that holds us together.

 

I have no problem with "don't ask, don't tell". That's a fine protection of gays' rights. But, I was in the service. I'd rather have been in basic training and tech school or in battle with some young ladies in my squadron, than some gay men I don't know what the heck about em.

Well, all I know is, those generals at Obamao's "State of the Union" speech were NOT happy.

 

Society has a right to protect itself, to continue to exist. So does the branches of our military. I guess there are other countries where

it's no big deal.

 

But, they aren't America, by far the biggest protector of freedom on this planet.

 

Well, I say, it's part of taking our America, and deliberately turning it completely upside down, destroying everything, for those who would like

to take power over everthing.

 

By some of the same logic supporters of this fraudulent "gay marriage" biz use, somebody can try to justify marriage to anything. A doll, a tree...

 

I have to go have lunch and read my farming stuff now.

 

 

[VaporTrail]

Thanks for sharing, that's a terrific story. Try to not be infuriated with churches, their obvious focus IS morality, it's what they do. After all, they have the freedom to prioritze as they see fit, too. We'll all just have to be tolerant of that.

 

I am a staunch Christian. I know, in my heart, that God is there.

 

Yes, I'd agree that their on of their focuses is morality, but when they share a bigoted view on something that doesn't make a damn difference to me. There was evidence that churches gave support to prop 8. If they don't want to let gays marry in their church, then that is absolutely fine. But if you're going to use your power as a church to get your way in the government, then you have no right to a tax-exempt status.

 

And as for knowing that God is there... I mean, you believe God is there, that doesn't mean that he is. There is most likely nothing I can tell you that will change your mind on that. lol, I have these convos all the time w/ my girlfriend, she's a member of a catholic lay community. I tell her that she believes that eating magic crackers once a week will save her soul. But I digress...

 

The kids should always be respected, and left alone. I've seen the left riducle Palin's kids, even Trig, the little boy with Down's Syndrome.

Even distorted photos.

That is far more than vicious. And it typifies what I'm meaning here. You don't see the right mocking Obamao's kids.

The right tends to have important values that they stick to, and political expediency doesn't change those important values.

 

Sure they should be respected, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Had Obama's daughter gotten preggers, you had better believe that Fox News would be putting her in the spotlight and questioning Obama's ability as a father and a leader (im not really sure how old they are, but see my point?). You did see the right mocking Obama's ethnic background, Beck even claimed Obama "hated the white race." I mean, in my opinion it's all fair game because the media are scum, and they'll do whatever, I just chose to take it with a grain of salt.

 

The whacko religious right, (ie Pat Robertson, Ernest Angley, BLECH) are not the primary part of anything. It's a fringe.

Not a widely well-thought of fringe. Very much stupid minority such as the communist party USA, which heartily supported Obamao in the election,and still does.

Neither is a huge part of either side. But, with the Communist Party, it's a lunatic fringe. So is the lunatic super wacko religious right.

 

You can't compare Pat Robertson with the Communist Party. Robertson has a huge following while the Pinko Party is a joke. The religious right is not a fringe group. In 2004, 45% of Americans considered themselves Young Earth Creationists. You know that he is speaking to people that believe nonsense like that. I mean, there is zero evidence for YEC theory, yet people just blindly believe it because it is an absolute religious truth.

 

I think it would be cool to have you and Steve come out to the farm some evening on a weekend, and we could sit around our campfire,

and talk about stuff. GGG

 

Word, I've spent a few nights out in farmtown Ottawa county with some buddies. Fired my first rifle there my freshman year of college. Much different than the burbs of Cleveland.

 

The easiest way for me to explain is - society has a right to protect itself. Without some shell/structure of society, we cannot thrive, nor

continue to exist.

Gays shouldn't lose rights because they are gay. I don't really know what gay is... I imagine it's a biological/psycholgical anomaly, but what the heck do I know?

 

Okay, I'm somewhat with you. Gayness is probably a genetic thing. I have a very hard time believing it's a choice, many of the gays I know wish they were attracted to the opposite sex mostly because they wouldn't be shunned. It's a load of bullshit, and it's heartbreaking to know that some of my friends' parents won't accept them because they're gay.

 

I know this - gays exist, and it isn't natural. Look at the history of mankind. It exists because of the union of men and women.

So, arbitrarily, I have history on my side of this whole biz... @@

 

Yes, mankind exists because of male/female reproduction. I'm with you there. You may have history on your side, but you certainly do not have science. Many species of animals exhibit homosexual behavior. Is that unnatural? I will say nothing of the morality of it. Morality is all relative, but homosexuality is a very natural thing. It may not lead to the continuation of your genes, but if it makes them happy, then who cares?

 

But unlimited freedom, is no freedom at all, because other's have a right to infringe/deny other's freedoms. So, there are resetrictions, there are

societal structures deemed necessary by society, to protect itself, and it's members.

 

You have a right to your freedom until it infringes upon another's freedom. That's all I have to say about that.

 

Underage children are protected. Parents have a right to teach their own children their own values, morally. Gays have no right to destroy the freedom of parents teaching their own kids their own values, via our education system, nor via legal justification of something that doesn't exist,

morally, biologically. The fact that they are gay isn't a crime. But to try to legitimize a new definition of marriage, and legally mandate that the Bible

be trashed as far as marriage definition goes, is actually the government mandating a new religion or sorts.

 

To destroy our definition of marriage, is just another devious, leftwing political attack on America's status quo. They are free to be gay, but not free to destroy other's freedoms, to destroy our society's fabric that holds us together.

 

Here, you are completely wrong, and I am confident that this will change in the next 20 years. I need to stress again, that the churches can have their own beliefs and refuse services to whomever they want. However, the state should NOT have the same beliefs as a church. I have to bring up that this nation was made because church and state needed to be separate.

 

Yes, it would remove the Christian definition of marriage from the American definition of marriage, but the Christian belief would still be intact for practicing Christians and their parishes. As it is now, this belief DOES infringe on the rights of gays. Your beliefs toward gays are bigoted. If the gays were allowed to legally marry, what 'fabric of society' gets destroyed? The Churches are still allowed to refuse them services, but they're a church, not the United States.

[VaporTrail]

"Excellent. Are you ever working at a lab at Wright-Patterson AFB? I have some ancient fishin advice for ya. Don't know if those lakes are there anymore... GGG"

 

Well, I was. Not anymore. Perhaps again this summer, but yes the lakes are still there.

 

"Wait, you lost me. You defended the flag burners as exercizing their freedom of speech, but you deplore the tea baggers? What?

I went to a tea party. It was great, speakers, and a few thousand of the rest of us Americans who are concerned, very concerned.

One young lady was crying. She was holding a sign that said "This Obama is not the one I voted for"

 

I meant to say I deplored them both. I hate when people burn OUR flag. Selfish view on my point, but eff them. But it's their right to do it.

 

You should go with me sometime. It's far more wholesome a freedom of speech, than the far more nasty, hateful "kill your parents" crowd.

 

I might actually be down for this. I very much agree with that thing I posted in how people are closed-minded about things they don't want to hear. I figure it'd be a good experience. Where are you from anyways?

 

 

[Mr. T]

The term teabaggers is just a liberal media spin to disenfranchise others as to why these people are there in the first place and to make them look like they are coo coo.

 

 

I wonder if the same media would be so daring to pull a stunt like this at civil rights march, there is not much difference between the two groups. Those who support the tea parties are probably the most compassionate patriots we have here in America. Plus they are the one who will always be the first to step forward in the event of a national emergency.

 

 

It is sad that the politics of the left like to throw punches below the belt. And then cry foul.

[calfoxwc]

VaporTrail - We're in the Akron/Canton area, not that many miles from the HOF in Canton, or the Airport.

 

I missed meeting T when he was over in the Barberton? area... but I have met Steve, who is a fun guy to meet.

 

I really appreciate the discussion, bigtime.

 

About those lakes at Wright-Pat.

 

One was called Bass Lake, and the other had Trout in it. A good old boy from Kentucky came to me one afternoon, and said "You and me have to go fish for trout tonight".

 

I told him okay, but that nobody, but nobody could catch any of the freakin things. LOL

 

He said you have to know the secret. So, on his instructions, I went to the store after work, and bought a package of Velveeta

cheese.

 

We fished from shore, not all that far out, with little treble hooks and with molded balls of cheese. Those rainbow trout were all over em.

 

The look on the other folks' faces was priceless.

 

Seems that those trout are stocked, and at the fishery, they feed them little yellow cheeseballs.

 

The trout was great, and when two kids, their parents were a bit around the bend of the lake, came over and were watching,

 

my buddy and I quietly explained the secret, and gave them some cheese. Great fun, great fish.

 

I had never caught trout before, and tried to fillet one. That doesn't work.

 

The next day, he grinned at me, and said, "so, how did filleting a trout work?"

 

I lied and said it went fine. So, he laughs and says "well, I'll be, that is the -first time- it's ever worked..."

 

Bass Island, had tons of channel cat in it. But, part way around, don't go pass a sign, near the building.

 

Whatever used to be stored there, well, it was guarded very seriously.

[VaporTrail]

It is sad that the politics of the left like to throw punches below the belt. And then cry foul.

 

Right because the left is the only side that's willing to sling mud.

 

And cal, that heavily guarded area was probably whatever was left over from Hangar 18, yes?

 

Anywho, I'm from Mentor, but currently studying at University of Dayton, I usually make it up to Cleveland for two Browns games or so a year.

[calfoxwc]

I have always wondered if it was one of those hangars.

 

We were a SAC unit, and there were B-52's on the flight light, and nukes were stored somewhere.

 

I figured it was back there.

 

They had to have camera's there, I had em come down and sternly admonish me no more than a minute after I walked

 

two yards past the sign to retrieve my hung-up fishing line. It isn't like I didn't have a security clearance and wasn't in the Air Force...

 

I guess I interrupted their tea and crumpets. GGG

 

Oh, and you can fish around that lake, with a lead head jig tipped with a bit of worm or a few maggots. Use a bobber

about whatever depth works, and with a slight breeze, you can slowly bring it back toward shore, past brush piles,

usually without too much risk of getting hung up unless it's set too deep, and catch crappie like crazy in the spring.

 

Crappie in summer don't taste nearly as good, at all. Nice bluegill, too, back then.

 

But, that was back in the 70's... long time ago......