Burden of Proof

[The Gipper]

For those of you wondering "how can they not charge Ben Roethlisberger", it is a pure and simple matter. It is called "The Burden of Proof". For someone to be convicted of a criminal charge, he must be shown to have committed the act and violated the law "beyond a reasonable doubt". How do you get to the point that you can convince a jury that a person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? By the introduction of significant, compelling evidence.

 

So? What do we have here in the BR case? We have a girl that says "he did it"; and we have a guy who says "I didn't do it..or if I did something it was all strictly consensual". To my knowledge no other credible evidence, beyond the statement of the purported victim, has been discovered. In essence we have a "she said, he said" case.

Sorry folks, but that ain't good enough.

It is particularly not good enough where you have a small town prosecutor who may be asked to bring a criminal charge against a high profile defendant. Take my word for it, Prosecutors do not like to lose. They want to win. But they only want to win in situations where they are perfectly confident they can win. The evidence here apparently is not sufficient, and the prosecutor came to the conclusion that he could not win...particulary if he were to go up against the highly compensated and competent defense counsel that BR could afford to bring in....and when he is confronted with the level of the burden of proof of beyond a reasonable doubt. "He said, she said" is never a winning formula in a criminal trial.

 

Note also however that this does not mean the the prosecutor concluded that BR did not commit the act he is accused of, but simply that he cannot prove it at a criminal trial.

 

Also note that the situation is completely different in a civil case for damages. If this "victim" were to bring a civil case against BR, then the burden of proof is much lower. In a civil matter it is merely a "preponderance of the evidence" that is needed to win your case. In a civil case "He said, she said" may actually be successful for this complainant. Why you ask?

CREDIBILITY. In a civil case of this nature when the jury is presented with dichotomous evidence where she says "he did it" and he says "I didn't do it" it all comes down to: who do you believe?

So, ask yourself: who would a jury believe? The girl or the quarterback?

I am of the firm belief that BR will now face another civil action as a result of this incident. The whole trial wouldl revolve around "who do you believe"...that is, if there is a trial. If his attorneys are convinced that BR has poor credibility, and the the girl has good credibility, I would expect a settlement.

So, there you have it.

[Browns57]

He isn't getting charged so can we get back to talking about the Browns now, and quit dwelling on the Steelers players and their problems. This is not The Steelers Board.

[Spunkonmyback DPOY]

The accuser doesn't have any witnesses. Ben has two off duty police officiers testifiying in defense of him. At this point, there's nothing that has been made public that would even get charges brought against Ben. "Proof" isn't a requirement to be guilty in a civil court. With two cops on Ben's behalf, he won't be found criminally or civilly guilty.

 

This fact is overlooked, but Holmes has yet to be convicted of any crime since being drafted by the Steelers.

 

The Steelers have had some off-field problems (though most blown out of proportion), but we are still then one of the most talented teams on the field.

[The Gipper]

The accuser doesn't have any witnesses. Ben has two off duty police officiers testifiying in defense of him. At this point, there's nothing that has been made public that would even get charges brought against Ben. "Proof" isn't a requirement to be guilty in a civil court. With two cops on Ben's behalf, he won't be found criminally or civilly guilty.

 

This fact is overlooked, but Holmes has yet to be convicted of any crime since being drafted by the Steelers.

 

The Steelers have had some off-field problems (though most blown out of proportion), but we are still then one of the most talented teams on the field.

 

 

Unless those off duty cops were inside that bathroom with the girl and BR, it is doubtful that they know what went down. It is still a he said, she said matter.

And, you are wrong, you still need "proof" in a civil action....its just that the "percentage" if you will of "proof" is less stringent in a civil action than in a criminal action.

If I were you I wouldn't go predicting what the outcome of a civil matter is any more than I would predict the outcome of a criminal matter. I haven't seen any affidavits of these off duty cops. Have you? They may have simply done a Sgt. Shultz and have said "I know nothing, I saw nothing, I heard nothing". That wouldn't necessarily help...or hinder, either side of the case. It would go back to the statements...and the credibility of the two people involved.

As for the Steelers being one of the most talented teams? I don't know. They didn't make the playoffs last year, so apparently they weren't one of the 6 most talented AFC teams, nor one of the 12 most talented NFL teams.

(and as I have always said, the Steelers whole has been greater than the sum of its parts....particularly with their defensive coaching. The talent level may not be as high as you think, but the coaching level on that side has been)

[Spunkonmyback DPOY]

Unless those off duty cops were inside that bathroom with the girl and BR, it is doubtful that they know what went down. It is still a he said, she said matter.

And, you are wrong, you still need "proof" in a civil action....its just that the "percentage" if you will of "proof" is less stringent in a civil action than in a criminal action.

If I were you I wouldn't go predicting what the outcome of a civil matter is any more than I would predict the outcome of a criminal matter. I haven't seen any affidavits of these off duty cops. Have you? They may have simply done a Sgt. Shultz and have said "I know nothing, I saw nothing, I heard nothing". That wouldn't necessarily help...or hinder, either side of the case. It would go back to the statements...and the credibility of the two people involved.

As for the Steelers being one of the most talented teams? I don't know. They didn't make the playoffs last year, so apparently they weren't one of the 6 most talented AFC teams, nor one of the 12 most talented NFL teams.

(and as I have always said, the Steelers whole has been greater than the sum of its parts....particularly with their defensive coaching. The talent level may not be as high as you think, but the coaching level on that side has been)

But the cops will having a stronger say in court than the prosecutor, defandant and any civilion witness who didn't specifically see the sexual assult occur. It's still a he said she said deal, but the cops will give tesimony that will help Ben. The court system is innocent until proven guilty so even the cops don't specificly say they watched Ben's every movement and know he didn't do it, them saying they didn't see the crime take place still maintians Ben's inncocents.

 

What team had two of it's three best defenders out for most of the season and made the playoffs? Especially when both players have been to probowls and the defensive unit as a whole was top 10 all-time the previous year. Many coaching mistakes led to our five game losing streak. We lost no major pieces of our team from our 08 Super Bowl season and still had many players from our 05 season. We certianly had a down year due to many factors (many of which every team faces every year), but saying our team was bad (depending on how you view 9-7) becuase we lacked talent doesn't hold as much water as saying we simply had a down year.

[DawgTracker]

I wouldn't feel good having a guy who probably raped two women and maybe more that wouldn't come forward on my team. Good luck with that, hope you feel good that the burden of proof wasn't shown

[The Gipper]

But the cops will having a stronger say in court than the prosecutor, defandant and any civilion witness who didn't specifically see the sexual assult occur. It's still a he said she said deal, but the cops will give tesimony that will help Ben. The court system is innocent until proven guilty so even the cops don't specificly say they watched Ben's every movement and know he didn't do it, them saying they didn't see the crime take place still maintians Ben's inncocents.

 

It doesn't mater if it is an off duty cop or a civilian. If those off duty cops didn't see anything, they have nothing to add. It might as well be me or you testifying. I didn't see anything. Did you? What happened behind those closed doors is what matters.

( I mean, if the cops say that the girl went into the bathroom and came out with a smile on her face and cum on he lips, that may be one thing. But, apparently, that didn't happen.)

 

What team had two of it's three best defenders out for most of the season and made the playoffs?

 

The Indianapolis Colts. Both Sanders and Freeney were out good parts of the year.

 

Especially when both players have been to probowls and the defensive unit as a whole was top 10 all-time the previous year. Many coaching mistakes led to our five game losing streak. We lost no major pieces of our team from our 08 Super Bowl season and still had many players from our 05 season. We certianly had a down year due to many factors (many of which every team faces every year), but saying our team was bad (depending on how you view 9-7) becuase we lacked talent doesn't hold as much water as saying we simply had a down year.

 

I am not saying that you were bad because you lacked talent. I am saying that your talent level isn't necessarily any better than many other teams talent level nor as good as the coaching level that runs the Steelers talent. They are not without some decent talent, but their coaching schemes are the key to your success. How many times have I quoted Bum Phillips here: "He can take his'n and beat your'n or he could take your'n and beat his'n." LeBeau could have taken the Browns defensive players and made hay with them these past few years. And if your guys played with the Browns, they would have played about as well as the Browns did.

 

[The Gipper]

Here is this weeks survey:

 

I will answer my own questions.

 

1. How much of the draft, which is now a 3 day event, will you watch?

I will probably watch the 1st round, then depending on if I am watching TV I will flip back and forth for the rest of it...or be doing something else.

 

 

2. Ben Roethlisberger...did he skate, or was justice preserved?

 

I think justice was served, if not preserved. From this standpoint: I don't think that they had the evidence to convict him. It was just a he said, she said deal, and that is not enough for a small town prosecutor to take on a high profile defendant. It probably wouldn't be enough for him to take on Joe Blow off the street. This doesn't mean he didn't do something, just that it could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. What he probably did was grope her..and there was certainly no penetration. But our system requires more than he said, she said.

 

 

3. Were you surprised at how well Tiger Woods performed in The Masters after a 5 month layoff?

 

Borderline surprised. I didn't think he would win, but I thought he would do OK. Being in it until the the final 9 holes is a bit of a surprise for someone who had not played in 5 months.

 

 

4. The Top 5 albums on the Billboard Top 100 are by the following artists: 1. Jimi Hendrix 2. Barenaked Ladies 3. She&Him 4. The Gorillaz 5. New Moon Soundtrack. Who would be your pick to purchase if you were to, and are you surprised that a guy that died 39 years ago has the leading selling album in 2010?

 

Well, my son may already have the Gorillaz, and I bet my daughter already has the New Moon soundtrack. I personally was never that big a Hendrix fan, but the historical aspect of this album could be worthwhile. But I won't buy it because I haven't bought anything in a long time.

But, I guess I could do the old geezer act and say "of course I am not surprised that it is #1, the music then was just better". To an extent, I believe that. But there is still good music made today, so though it is not a surprise, it should be a surprise. Though, perhaps we should give credit to the younger generation for discovering this music.

 

 

5. This week in history, April 12 through the 19th the following events occurred. Which one has the most important historical significance?:

1775 The Battle Road, Lexington and Concord, after all, the rest of our history is based on a foundation that started with this event.

1861 The South fires on Ft. Sumter to begin the Civil War

1865 Abraham Lincoln is assassinated

1906 The San Francisco earthquake hits

1912 The Titanic sinks

1945 FDR dies

1993 Waco tragedy

1995 Oklahoma city federal building bombed

[Spunkonmyback DPOY]

My point was Ben is innocent until being proved guilty. If the two cops claim to have seen no wrong doings it's not proof or even evidence that ben didn't do anything wrong. But by claiming they didn't see a crime is another way of maintaining Ben's innocents as he is not obligated to prove himself innocent, the police bear the burden of proof. Although this is all over now anyways.

 

 

Freeney wasn't put on IR like Smith was. Troy wasn't put on IR but in hines sight he should have been. Plus the Colts live and die by their offense and hope the defense pulls through if need be. The Steelers are the exact opposite.

 

I do agree the Steelers coaches/system seem to bring out the best in the players.

[BUNSofSTEEL08]

I wouldn't feel good having a guy who probably raped two women and maybe more that wouldn't come forward on my team. Good luck with that, hope you feel good that the burden of proof wasn't shown

TWIST and SHOUT !!! Taking advantage of a 20 yr old college girl who has to be smart enough to know better ...Maybe so. A shame . defiantly so ... Rape ? Please .... No. # 1 ...Raise your women to be smarter and classier. No.#2 If Ben hasn't learned a lesson by now , he is a lost cause. We will see. Because a leopard doesn't change his spots. IF Ben is truly a total jackass and pig , it will happen again. If he is a Grown man with a Teenagers Brain ... Maturity should follow. we will see.

[Mark O]

I disagree with the "she should've known better" defense. From what I've read, there is no proof of rape and again..the "raise your women to be smarter and classier" is no defense for sexually taking advantage of a woman. There's only two people who know what happened that night...the girl and Ben and after two accusations, I would guess that he hasn't learned his lesson and I would guess that it does happen again.

 

However...even without charges being filed, the girl did nothing wrong.

 

[Speedyd900rr]

I know what's going on here. All these pissburgh fans would actually want their wives to bang Ben if givin the chance. They would see it like owning a trophey or even compare her with his autographed jock strap they paid $5,000 for that is just sitting in a glass case on the kitchen counter inside their trailer. Since they would be willing to give their girlfriends to him for a night they figure its impossible for him to actually rape anyone.