Hello, Niner fan here.

[ballpeen]

They don't, and why the NFL won't do anything about the move if it happens.

 

You get in to wine country north of the city...so a move south probably helps more fans if there is any impact to fans.

[IHateTheYorks]

You have got to be kidding me. Asking for legal advice like that on an open forum? I should charge you!

Nevertheless, I will give you a nickel's worth of free advice:

1. The first thing you have to have is standing to file a lawsuit. It doesn't matter how many people are involved. The City of Cleveland had a written lease agreement signed by the Cleveland Browns and Art Modell with the City as the other signatory to the contract. Do YOU or anyone you know have a written contract signed between yourself and the Yorks which obligates them to play their games inside the city limits of San Francisco.

If you don't have that your lawsuit papers can be put to better use lining a birdcage.

 

That's where the shoe doesn't fit. No one really knows, not officially at least, how long the lease actually, goes. Some say 2013, some say 2014, some say 2016 and some say only Al Davis knows the truth since the time he helped the widows of Tony and Vic Morabito to find new owners of the Niners (late 70s) and found the DeBartolo's from Youngstown, Ohio. Some of Al's partners wanted tp buy the Niners at the time but the Morabito widows suggested a six-figure finders fee to Al if he could find them some new owners.

 

2. WTF are you talking about filing it outside the US? It would carry NO weight being filed outside the US. It has to be filed in the jurisdiction that is the situs of the action. On what planet did you come up with that question.

 

I meant filing at the appropriate place from outside the US. Not filing it outside of the US.

 

3. The NFL's intervention in the Browns case was to serve as a facilitor to come up with a negotiated settlement. The final settlement to keep the Browns franchise in Cleveland together with its history etc. to be reactivated in a few years, to grant a new franchise to Baltimore and Modell, and to let him then take his jock straps and toilet seat with him was massaged through back and forth talks designed to keep the case OUT of the court and a trial. It had nothing to do with setting any kind of priority on the court's docket.

 

I understand what you're saying but the lawsuits had to be a leverage to keep this case outside of the court, right? The hassel to go through all the lawsuits would be too costly and would just stall Modell's final get go to found the Baltimore Ravens. So theoretically speaking, the more you involve the courts, the more the NFL and the Yorks will be pissed? It will stall their plans, right?

 

Sorry kid, you are grasping at straws. Stay the F*** out of the court's. If anyone is going to file a suit, leave it to the City of San Francisco. Unless YOU are the Mayor of San Francisco, stay out of it. Your best bet: Have the city of San Francisco build a new Stadium for the Niners. And put a lot of cash in the York's pocket. That is how you will keep them inside San Fran proper.

Otherwise, you can go get signatures protesting the Niners move. Then go get that birdcage and put your petition there.

 

But the Yorks don't want to listen. The city of San Francisco passed a vote twice to build a new stadium. In 1997 and in 2006 when Lennar was given the go ahead to remodel Hunter's Point. They Yorks have pushed on with their agenda. Why should the city line the pockets of a family that lucked into the ownership of the Niners when Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was stripped of it? Why?

[Thaak]

Why should the city line the pockets of a family that lucked into the ownership of the Niners when Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was stripped of it? Why?

 

Because those "lined pockets" also pay the salaries of all your coaches and players.

[IHateTheYorks]

The book "False Start" by Terry Pluto is the best source on the move...and depressing.

 

I grew up less than 4 miles from Municipal Stadium, I know what you are thinking. The Niners should play temporarily in Berkley or Oakland after blowing up Candlestick & rebuilding.

 

Thanks man! I appreciate it.

[IHateTheYorks]

Because those "lined pockets" also pay the salaries of all your coaches and players.

 

But screw the coaches and players. They are no good. It's been downhill for the Niners since Mariucci was fired by John York. This current organization might win the NFC West, TOPS! And that's only because Kurt Warner will retire. Imagine how pathetic...being held up by Kurt Warner, a 39 year old. Few actually care.

[Thaak]

But screw the coaches and players. They are no good. It's been downhill for the Niners since Mariucci was fired by John York. This current organization might win the NFC West, TOPS! And that's only because Kurt Warner will retire. Imagine how pathetic...being held up by Kurt Warner, a 39 year old. Few actually care.

 

I think Singletary is a great coach. He is slowly turning your organization around.

 

Marriucci is a terrible coach. He's proved it elsewhere.

 

I think Smith will surprise you and your new OL will get great in a year or two.

 

But regardless your complaints about your owner, he can't be as bad as Davis or Snyder.

 

And regardless of how effective you think the organization is... the fact is, the owner pays the salaries of all who play/coach/run the team for them. As such, they have the right every American business man has, to make money.

[The Gipper]

That's where the shoe doesn't fit. No one really knows, not officially at least, how long the lease actually, goes. Some say 2013, some say 2014, some say 2016 and some say only Al Davis knows the truth since the time he helped the widows of Tony and Vic Morabito to find new owners of the Niners (late 70s) and found the DeBartolo's from Youngstown, Ohio. Some of Al's partners wanted tp buy the Niners at the time but the Morabito widows suggested a six-figure finders fee to Al if he could find them some new owners.

 

Trust me. Someone knows. The NFL office knows. Team leases are required to be filed with the League.

 

 

 

I meant filing at the appropriate place from outside the US. Not filing it outside of the US.

 

I guess you could mail it in from whereever you are. My advice is: don't bother.

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying but the lawsuits had to be a leverage to keep this case outside of the court, right? The hassel to go through all the lawsuits would be too costly and would just stall Modell's final get go to found the Baltimore Ravens. So theoretically speaking, the more you involve the courts, the more the NFL and the Yorks will be pissed? It will stall their plans, right?

 

No, you just don't understand. Your so called case is frivolous, and it could be YOU paying THEM for bringing a frivolous case. And it wouldn't hold them up one second.

 

 

 

But the Yorks don't want to listen. The city of San Francisco passed a vote twice to build a new stadium. In 1997 and in 2006 when Lennar was given the go ahead to remodel Hunter's Point. They Yorks have pushed on with their agenda. Why should the city line the pockets of a family that lucked into the ownership of the Niners when Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was stripped of it? Why?

 

Well, there must be some serious trouble with the SF proposal if York doesn't accept it. I have no clue what it is. As far as the Yorks "lucking" into the team, the fact is, they are the same family. Denise is a DeBartolo. She always had some ownership of the team, she didn't have control until Eddie screwed the pooch and had to give it up to her. The thing is, what difference does that make? They own the team.

Why they would insist on going to Santa Clara if there was a good and viable offer from San Fran, I have no clue. It would require more info for me to figure that out.

 

[roach]

Fumble! by Michael Poplar is an excellent book on the Browns and the events leading up to Modell's move of the team. Poplar worked for Modell as vice president/treasurer of the Stadium Corp from 1975 to 1996. The book provides an insider's view of the blunders of Modell and city officials/politicians that resulted in the move to Baltimore.

 

It does not cover the specific topic of how the NFL was petitioned to get our team back, but it is a great read for those interested in Browns history.

 

[IHateTheYorks]

I basicly have nothing to add. Most of you guys seem knowledable enough in this discussion about the club that is your twin in football history. 1946 is OUR year. It's the year we were born. If you care you could help by stating what it is to almost lose your team. You can voice your opinion. You can state it here. Guess you have to register...

 

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26

 

I thank you all for the advices and discussions here today and I hope you all keep at least some space in your hearts for the San Francisco 49ers and the future of this ball clube. We are tied at the waste by history and by Ohio. Please understand our struggle as we understood yours.

[Zombo]

I basicly have nothing to add. Most of you guys seem knowledable enough in this discussion about the club that is your twin in football history. 1946 is OUR year. It's the year we were born. If you care you could help by stating what it is to almost lose your team. You can voice your opinion. You can state it here. Guess you have to register...

 

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26

 

I thank you all for the advices and discussions here today and I hope you all keep at least some space in your hearts for the San Francisco 49ers and the future of this ball clube. We are tied at the waste by history and by Ohio. Please understand our struggle as we understood yours.

 

Dude ... it's just Santa Clara.

 

They'll still be the San Francisco 49ers, you just have to drive your hybrid a half hour to get there.

 

Zombo

[Speedyd900rr]

Dude ... it's just Santa Clara.

 

They'll still be the San Francisco 49ers, you just have to drive your hybrid a half hour to get there.

 

Zombo

 

 

Maybe the batteries wont last that long or something.

[IHateTheYorks]

Fumble! by Michael Poplar is an excellent book on the Browns and the events leading up to Modell's move of the team. Poplar worked for Modell as vice president/treasurer of the Stadium Corp from 1975 to 1996. The book provides an insider's view of the blunders of Modell and city officials/politicians that resulted in the move to Baltimore.

 

It does not cover the specific topic of how the NFL was petitioned to get our team back, but it is a great read for those interested in Browns history.

 

Thank you too! Most of you guys really came up big today. I'm going to digest all good advices over the next few weeks. Keep your fingers crossed for the Niners because we're in deep trouble.

 

THANK YOU!

[dawgpound3]

I basicly have nothing to add. Most of you guys seem knowledable enough in this discussion about the club that is your twin in football history. 1946 is OUR year. It's the year we were born. If you care you could help by stating what it is to almost lose your team. You can voice your opinion. You can state it here. Guess you have to register...

 

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26

 

I thank you all for the advices and discussions here today and I hope you all keep at least some space in your hearts for the San Francisco 49ers and the future of this ball clube. We are tied at the waste by history and by Ohio. Please understand our struggle as we understood yours.

 

I support his agenda. As a cleveland fan, I feel your pain. I feel that it should not be moving out of San Fran.

[The Gipper]

I support his agenda. As a cleveland fan, I feel your pain. I feel that it should not be moving out of San Fran.

 

Yea, but how about this:

 

When the Browns had threatened to leave and take their history etc. with them, there was a bit of a discussion about the possibility of bringing a new franchise here. It was even suggested/speculated that the new franchise could have ended up occupying a renovated Fawcett Stadium in Canton and be known as The Canton Bulldogs.

Now, that wouldn't be the same as keeping The Browns, but....could all you Northeast Ohio football fans have seen it in your hearts to support an NFL franchise located in Canton with the Cleveland/Akron area still its primary basis of support?

[IHateTheYorks]

The Akron Beacon Journal was a no go as they only have a searchable online archive back to 2001.

 

Although this looks like something interesting from The Cleveland Plan Dealer...

 

BROWNS OR NOTHING: DON'T STEAL A TEAM

 

'Author: JOE DIRCK

Date: December 10, 1995

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH)

Page: 1B

 

The hot rumor du jour last week had the Tampa Bay Buccaneers moving to Cleveland and becoming the Browns, with the ex-Browns moving to Baltimore and becoming the Buccaneers. Or something like that.

 

It's getting hard to keep all this straight. Let's see - first it was the Bengals moving here and calling themselves the Browns; then it was the Seahawks who supposedly were on their way.

 

And now Tampa Bay. Little more than a month has passed since the...'

 

And then you have to pay for the rest.

 

Anybody remember this one?

[IHateTheYorks]

This one, also from the Plain Dealer, looks interesting...

 

'LAWYERS'LAST RESORT NOT LEAST, BUT LEASE

 

Author: MARK ROLLENHAGEN PLAIN DEALER REPORTER

Date: February 4, 1996

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH)

Page: 10A

 

It was a last resort when lawyers hired by the city decided to read the lease that had allowed the Browns to play in the Stadium for the past 22 years.

 

Asked by Mayor Michael R. White to come up with a viable lawsuit to keep the Browns from moving to Baltimore, a team of lawyers from Squire, Sanders and Dempsey had spent the weekend of Nov. 4 reading cases in which other cities used various legal claims to try to block a team move.

 

"It was not fun reading,".'

 

Or this one...

 

'CITY, NFL NEAR DEAL THAT LETS BROWNS GO NAME, COLORS WOULD STAY; A NEW TEAM PROMISED

 

Author: STEPHEN KOFF, TONY GROSSI and TIMOTHY HEIDER PLAIN DEALER REPORTERS

Date: February 8, 1996

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH)

Page: 1A

 

Mayor Michael R. White is to arrive in Chicago today possibly to help finalize a deal that could allow the Browns to move to Baltimore, if Cleveland would be guaranteed a football team upon completion of a new stadium.

 

Intensive negotiations to keep NFL football in Cleveland continued on the eve of a league owners'meeting, but the framework of a deal appeared to be developing late last night and early this morning.

 

A source close to the negotiations said the framework...'

[Speedyd900rr]

This one, also from the Plain Dealer, looks interesting...

 

'LAWYERS'LAST RESORT NOT LEAST, BUT LEASE

 

Author: MARK ROLLENHAGEN PLAIN DEALER REPORTER

Date: February 4, 1996

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH)

Page: 10A

 

It was a last resort when lawyers hired by the city decided to read the lease that had allowed the Browns to play in the Stadium for the past 22 years.

 

Asked by Mayor Michael R. White to come up with a viable lawsuit to keep the Browns from moving to Baltimore, a team of lawyers from Squire, Sanders and Dempsey had spent the weekend of Nov. 4 reading cases in which other cities used various legal claims to try to block a team move.

 

"It was not fun reading,".'

 

Or this one...

 

'CITY, NFL NEAR DEAL THAT LETS BROWNS GO NAME, COLORS WOULD STAY; A NEW TEAM PROMISED

 

Author: STEPHEN KOFF, TONY GROSSI and TIMOTHY HEIDER PLAIN DEALER REPORTERS

Date: February 8, 1996

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH)

Page: 1A

 

Mayor Michael R. White is to arrive in Chicago today possibly to help finalize a deal that could allow the Browns to move to Baltimore, if Cleveland would be guaranteed a football team upon completion of a new stadium.

 

Intensive negotiations to keep NFL football in Cleveland continued on the eve of a league owners'meeting, but the framework of a deal appeared to be developing late last night and early this morning.

 

A source close to the negotiations said the framework...'

 

 

This is like one big nightmare happening all over again lol.

[ballpeen]

I admire your passion York, but if a move actually hits the plate as reality, the NFL or a court of law isn't going to stop it.

 

 

The only thing that will stop it is if SF puts together a stadium package/tax package that is comparable to what is being offered 30 miles south.

 

 

How old is the stadium the Niners play in....I really don't know, but if it is older than maybe 15 years, stadium designs have really changed and owners need to be able to get as many private boxes as possible.

 

 

The template you see in new stadiums is the template that will be used for the next 40 years....so you need to get moving with that.

 

 

The city needs to find a location large enough to fund a new stadium....or use the existing site and for 3-4 years work a deal with Stanford to use their stadium while your new facility is being razed and rebuilt.

 

I don't know the footprint of a stadium....maybe 40 acres??? How many sites in SF that are level enough to undertake such a project without moving mountains of dirt???

[Speedyd900rr]

Yea, but how about this:

 

When the Browns had threatened to leave and take their history etc. with them, there was a bit of a discussion about the possibility of bringing a new franchise here. It was even suggested/speculated that the new franchise could have ended up occupying a renovated Fawcett Stadium in Canton and be known as The Canton Bulldogs.

Now, that wouldn't be the same as keeping The Browns, but....could all you Northeast Ohio football fans have seen it in your hearts to support an NFL franchise located in Canton with the Cleveland/Akron area still its primary basis of support?

 

I guess any team is better then no team right?

[ballpeen]

I guess any team is better then no team right?

 

 

 

I suppose so, but having lived out of Cleveland for decades, it wouldn't be the same for me. I probably would have become a full fledged Titans or Falcons fan.....at least semi-full fledged

 

[NewEraDawg]

I was so crushed by the Browns leaving i quit watching the NFL

[ballpeen]

I was so crushed by the Browns leaving i quit watching the NFL

 

 

 

to be honest, i did too.

 

 

I don't think I watched any NFl game, Super Bowls included in entirety.

 

 

It's when I reconnected with the Gators and college football.

 

 

I have held Gator tickets for 33 years now, but before the move only went to maybe a game or two a year....my buddy who sits next to me buys up any I don't use for business purposes.

 

 

 

After the move....I started going to 2-3-4 and realized I really like college football.

 

 

 

 

[The Gipper]

I admire your passion York, but if a move actually hits the plate as reality, the NFL or a court of law isn't going to stop it.

 

 

The only thing that will stop it is if SF puts together a stadium package/tax package that is comparable to what is being offered 30 miles south.

 

 

How old is the stadium the Niners play in....I really don't know, but if it is older than maybe 15 years, stadium designs have really changed and owners need to be able to get as many private boxes as possible.

 

 

The template you see in new stadiums is the template that will be used for the next 40 years....so you need to get moving with that.

 

 

The city needs to find a location large enough to fund a new stadium....or use the existing site and for 3-4 years work a deal with Stanford to use their stadium while your new facility is being razed and rebuilt.

 

I don't know the footprint of a stadium....maybe 40 acres??? How many sites in SF that are level enough to undertake such a project without moving mountains of dirt???

 

 

Well, according to this guy, the team moving to Stanford/Palo Alto would be unacceptable....and "abandonment" of the City. He wouldn't apparently even accept a move to Daly City, or Half Moon Bay or Burlingame, or even South San Francisco (yes, there is a town by that name). His position apparently is that the Cleveland Cavaliers when they played in Richfield, weren't the Cleveland Cavaliers and that the city of Cleveland should have been awarded a separate franchise.

Yes, I am sensative to the plight of teams abandoning their cities. But there is an issue of dimension. When Art Modell bought land in Strongsville to build a stadium there, no Browns fan would have really complained about that (Downtown merchants and the Cleveland Treasurer may have, but not the fans). How far away would that have been from the team's current location? At least about 25-30 miles.

[The Gipper]

to be honest, i did too.

 

 

I don't think I watched any NFl game, Super Bowls included in entirety.

 

 

It's when I reconnected with the Gators and college football.

 

 

I have held Gator tickets for 33 years now, but before the move only went to maybe a game or two a year....my buddy who sits next to me buys up any I don't use for business purposes.

 

 

 

After the move....I started going to 2-3-4 and realized I really like college football.

 

 

Gators suck swamp water.

 

No, really, they do. How do you think those reptilians get hydrated?

[IHateTheYorks]

Sorry, I missed your post yesterday.

 

I admire your passion York, but if a move actually hits the plate as reality, the NFL or a court of law isn't going to stop it.

 

Why not? Even the mayor (Gavin Newsom) has said they could file a lawsuit and take away the San Francisco part and they would win. But that would only be a hollow win. The debate is who has the right to the history and legacy.

 

The only thing that will stop it is if SF puts together a stadium package/tax package that is comparable to what is being offered 30 miles south.

 

There is a stadium package. It's even bigger than that. It's a total remodeling of the Hunter's Point naval base with housing, malls, green industries and of course a waterfront stadium. All that is in place and passed by voters in th city twice. In 1997 and 2006.

 

How old is the stadium the Niners play in....I really don't know, but if it is older than maybe 15 years, stadium designs have really changed and owners need to be able to get as many private boxes as possible.

 

It's the old SF Giants home from 1960 and the Niners moved there from Kezar Stadium in 1971. That shouldn't really be a factor in the debate since the Packers play at Lambeau Field opened in 1957.

 

The template you see in new stadiums is the template that will be used for the next 40 years....so you need to get moving with that.

 

If you would look at the proposed designs of the Santa Clara stadium you would see how cheap it looks. It looks even cheaper than the Jaguars stadium...

 

The city needs to find a location large enough to fund a new stadium....or use the existing site and for 3-4 years work a deal with Stanford to use their stadium while your new facility is being razed and rebuilt.

 

See my answer above. The Niners will play at Candlestick Park until 2013-2014. And they could probably extend that by 1-2 years while Hunter's Point is being cleaned up.

[ballpeen]

Gators suck swamp water.

 

No, really, they do. How do you think those reptilians get hydrated?

 

 

 

I know they do.....I get it....you are jealous to a degree.

 

You wouldn't dislike the gators if they weren't pretty good.

 

 

I like having a team many people don't like. It means you are beating up on people.

 

 

 

 

Yes Gip, I know, we lost to Alabama.

 

[The Gipper]

I know they do.....I get it....you are jealous to a degree.

 

You wouldn't dislike the gators if they weren't pretty good.

 

 

I like having a team many people don't like. It means you are beating up on people.

 

 

 

 

Yes Gip, I know, we lost to Alabama.

 

WE? What? Are you on their paid staff? I don't really dislike the Gators. I just think that some of their fans started getting stupidly arrogant after a win or two. (present company excepted) (sound a little familiar...do the initials PS come to mind.)

As for having a team people don't like....face it, no team is more disliked because of their success than Ohio State. That whole school has had to take on the entire SEC, the entire PAC-10, and good chunk of the ESPN media haters. So OSU supporters have had to have some pretty broad shoulders.

[The Gipper]

Just to settle the "NFL moving" claim, the following is the list of the Nielsen DMAs. These are the single markets that the NFL and any sports franchise uses for its primary home viewing area:

 

Local Television Market Universe Estimates

Comparisons of 2008-09 and 2009-10 Market Ranks

2008-09 2009-10 2009 2010

Rank Rank Difference DMA Name TV Homes TV Homes

1 1 New York 7,433,820 7,493,530

2 2 Los Angeles 5,654,260 5,659,170

3 3 Chicago 3,492,850 3,501,010

4 4 Philadelphia 2,950,220 2,955,190

5 5 Dallas-Ft. Worth 2,489,970 2,544,410

6 6 San Francisco-Oak-San Jose 2,476,450 2,503,400

7 7 Boston (Manchester) 2,409,080 2,410,180

8 8 Atlanta 2,369,780 2,387,520

9 9 Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) 2,321,610 2,335,040

10 10 Houston 2,106,210 2,123,460

11 11 Detroit 1,926,970 1,890,220

12 12 Phoenix (Prescott) 1,855,930 1,873,930

14 13 +1 Seattle-Tacoma 1,819,970 1,833,990

13 14 -1 Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) 1,822,160 1,805,810

15 15 Minneapolis-St. Paul 1,730,530 1,732,050

18 16 +2 Denver 1,524,210 1,539,380

16 17 -1 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale 1,546,920 1,538,090

17 18 -1 Cleveland-Akron (Canton) 1,524,930 1,520,750

19 19 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn 1,466,420 1,455,620

20 20 Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto 1,399,520 1,404,580

21 21 St. Louis 1,249,820 1,249,450

22 22 Portland, OR 1,175,100 1,188,770

23 23 Pittsburgh 1,156,460 1,154,950

24 24 Charlotte 1,122,860 1,147,910

25 25 Indianapolis 1,114,970 1,119,760

27 26 +1 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) 1,080,680 1,107,820

26 27 -1 Baltimore 1,102,080 1,093,170

28 28 San Diego 1,066,680 1,073,390

29 29 Nashville 1,016,290 1,019,010

30 30 Hartford & New Haven 1,014,990 1,010,630

33 31 +2 Salt Lake City 919,390 944,060

31 32 -1 Kansas City 937,970 941,360

34 33 +1 Cincinnati 915,570 918,670

32 34 -2 Columbus, OH 925,840 904,030

35 35 Milwaukee 905,350 901,790

36 36 Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And 858,050 865,810

37 37 San Antonio 818,560 830,000

38 38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce 779,430 776,080

41 39 +2 Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York 738,880 743,420

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