Middle east palestinian Bias toward Israel the root cause?

[osusev]

I suppose out of curiosity how many of you think that or Israeli policies and support need to be adjusted to the majority (arabs) populations support of the Palestinian people.

 

There is a powerful Jewish influential lobbying group in the United States. I know they are an important voting bloc, but maybe our policies with Israel is what is causing so much anger toward us in the first place.

 

When we talk of syria and Iran along with Saudi arabia, egypt etc almost all of their populations support the Palestinians. The Palestinians are suffering massively. If we TRULY wanted to wage a hearts and minds campaign in that region we need to start with this topic.

 

How do you think either Obama or Mccain will handle this?

[Pumpkin Eater]

touchy subject. I agree though.

 

What I find odd is that a country that seperates church and state created and supports a country based on a church.

 

I wonder if the typical Arab sees the typical Isrealite living a great life while theirs sucks and blames it on our support and funding of Isreal?

[Guest mz.]

Guy: do you ever have anything to say or do you just post Photoshopped crap like a 5 year-old?

 

Anyway, being a Jew myself, this is a tough subject for me. I probably feel less loyalty to Israel than most American Jews, but this in no way condones the treatment Israel gets from its Arab neighbors. While I am a total believer in human rights, I find it extraordinarily tough to care a bunch for a group of folks (Palestinians) who are raised to hate me and my "people."

[Pumpkin Eater]

I think some of it is an educational issue. I agree the hatred in the middle east is ridiculous.

[Guest Aloysius]

I don't see it as being about whether we should be pro-Palestinian or pro-Israel. Rather, it's about whether or not we should be actively engaged in the peace process.

 

To a certain extent, engagement requires leaning on our Israeli allies, but that's okay; Israeli PM's will often justify their actions by saying that American pressure requires them to do x.

 

However, it's important to note that most experts don't think anything significant can be achieved right now on a final status agreement between the two sides. It's very hard to make peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians when the Palestinians themselves are bitterly divided.

 

What we should be doing is establishing a series of confidence-building measures between the two sides, especially Israel releasing prisoners & loosening restrictions on movement within the West Bank. Hopefully, those measures will give the moderates within Palestinian society more credibility, thereby preventing Hamas from gaining support in the West Bank.

 

And it's important that we establish an international oversight mechanism to make sure each side fulfills its obligations. One of the main reasons that Oslo failed was that the confidence-building measures were supposed to be reciprocal, so each side would say, "Hey, the other guys aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing, so we don't have to do jack squat."

 

If there's a workable oversight team - probably the Quartet (US, EU, UN, Russia) - then each side can do its part knowing that the other side will also be compelled to act.

 

And as I've mentioned before, pushing Israel towards the peace table is something that also benefits Israel's long-term interests. With the looming demographic threat of an Arab majority between the Mediterranean and the Jordan, Israel must come to terms with the Palestinians if it wants to remain a Jewish and democratic state.

 

Though the short-term prospects of that happening aren't too positive, the next president will have to take the necessary steps to ensure it will happens within the next 8-10 years.

[Guest mz.]

Alo, I love your take on the situation, but damn if the hate (from both sides, really) doesn't run deep. I'm at the point where I think it runs too deep...

[Guest Aloysius]

Yeah, the extremists on both sides make getting anything done extremely difficult. Hamas is a huge problem, and the Jewish settlers in the West Bank would likely resort to terrorism if Israel tried to remove them from the territory. They've done so in the past (Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein).

 

All good reasons to be pessimistic, but also good reason for us to be actively engaged in the peace process. Obviously, the two sides aren't going to be able to solve this by themselves, and I think we have both a moral & strategic responsibility to help.

 

And on Sev's point about improving our image in the Arab world: I linked on the old board to an interesting Arab public opinion poll conducted earlier this year. I found this part interesting:

 

What TWO steps by the US would improve your views of the US most?

• Providing more economic assistance to the region (13%)

[/*:m:1m56yb1y][*]Pushing even more to spread democracy in the Middle East (13%)

[/*:m:1m56yb1y][*]Stopping economic and military aid to Israel (28%)

[/*:m:1m56yb1y][*]Brokering a Comprehensive Middle East Peace with Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 border and establishing a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capitol (50%)

[/*:m:1m56yb1y][*]Withdrawal of US forces from the Arabian Peninsula (46%)

[/*:m:1m56yb1y][*]Withdrawal of US forces from Iraq (44%) [/*:m:1m56yb1y]

 

The '67 borders thing is a little fishy, but it definitely seems like brokering peace between the two sides would significantly improve our image in the Arab world.

[Koa]

I suppose out of curiosity how many of you think that or Israeli policies and support need to be adjusted to the majority (arabs) populations support of the Palestinian people.

 

There is a powerful Jewish influential lobbying group in the United States. I know they are an important voting bloc, but maybe our policies with Israel is what is causing so much anger toward us in the first place.

 

When we talk of syria and Iran along with Saudi arabia, egypt etc almost all of their populations support the Palestinians. The Palestinians are suffering massively. If we TRULY wanted to wage a hearts and minds campaign in that region we need to start with this topic.

 

How do you think either Obama or Mccain will handle this?

 

AIPAC is the Jewish lobby you're referring to. Leading heads like Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz have so much pull in this country they dictate American foreign policy based on Israeli interests, not our interests. The US has contributed a majority of its foreign aide in the form of cash and weapons technology to an "ally" that does absolutely nothing for us: no natural resources and no diplomatic leverage with the international community.

 

I'm curious why we love a country so much that's been caught red handed spying on us. If you're unaware of this just look up information on Jonathan Pollard. If you aren't sold on the ultimate power and manipulation of AIPAC just look into the history of the USS Liberty. The Liberty was a massive naval ship sunk by the Israeli military and ultimately covered up by the US government to protect the alliance.

 

I'm not an "anti-semite" I just strongly question our ties with this country. Why treat them any different than Iran or Syria?

[Guest mz.]

Why treat them any different than Iran or Syria?

 

Israel, for one, hasn't been tied to the desire to eliminate Western culture from the planet.

[Koa]

Why treat them any different than Iran or Syria?

 

Israel, for one, hasn't been tied to the desire to eliminate Western culture from the planet.

 

I'm not saying Iran or Syria are role model countries. However, Israel's history of violence to other peoples and countries speak louder than alleged desires of other regimes. My question, once more, is why treat them different than any other country when they provide no beneficial resource to the US? It makes no sense. 95% of the citizens (not government) in every Middle East country despises Israel's policies. So in other words, if we cut off ties with Israel our war against terrorism and extremism would diminish sooner than later.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

touchy subject. I agree though.

 

What I find odd is that a country that seperates church and state created and supports a country based on a church.

 

I wonder if the typical Arab sees the typical Isrealite living a great life while theirs sucks and blames it on our support and funding of Isreal?

I wonder if I give a damn????

[Guest mz.]

So tell us what you do care about, Jeffro?

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I don't care about what Arabs think about Israel. I think we support Israel because of the Holocaust. We supported them and still support them because of what happened. Maybe you should think before you type sometimes Mikey.

[Guest mz.]

Just askin' a question, homey.

 

And PS, Israel didn't exist until after the Holocaust.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Just askin' a question, homey.

 

And PS, Israel didn't exist until after the Holocaust.

 

I realize this oh wise one. What I am trying to communicate to you is that I support Israel. I think the Hollocaust was a horrible event. I think Israel deserves our support and am proud to offer it. I'm just sayin.

[Guest mz.]

We agree here. I just think there are reasons beyond the Holocaust as well.

 

Including the fact that a majority of the enemies of Israel happen to hate our way of life just as much. Sometimes common enemies is enough...

[Koa]

We agree here. I just think there are reasons beyond the Holocaust as well.

 

Including the fact that a majority of the enemies of Israel happen to hate our way of life just as much. Sometimes common enemies is enough...

 

That seems like a cliche "they hate us because of our freedom" campaign slogan. Heres a thought, maybe they hate us because we're tailgating in their backyard and stealing their beer (oil).

[Guest mz.]

Stealing???

 

Come on, dude.

[Guest Aloysius]

I'm not saying Iran or Syria are role model countries. However, Israel's history of violence to other peoples and countries speak louder than alleged desires of other regimes.

Calling the Iranian & Syrian regimes non-violent is ridiculous. Not only do both regimes use violence to repress against their own citizens, but each has engaged in massive repression of their Kurdish minorities.

 

Israel's committed its share of human rights abuses, but Iran & Syria have committed more (& far more obscene) abuses. I'd suggest you read about the Hama massacre (the "Hama Rules" chapter in Tom Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem would be a good start).

 

And specifically talking about oppression of the Palestinians, you should read about what happened in Jordan in September 1970 (a.k.a. Black September). Or what happened to the Palestinians in Kuwait after Gulf War I.

My question, once more, is why treat them different than any other country when they provide no beneficial resource to the US?

First, your claim above that Israel receives a majority of US foreign aid is false. Though it receives the most aid of any country, the next top recipient is Egypt. Why, you ask? Because the promise of foreign aid played a large role in forging peace between Israel & Egypt.

 

And I'd dispute that Israel "provide no beneficial resource to the US". There's a strong security relationship there that goes back to the Cold War, as well as strong economic ties. If you go to Tel Aviv, you'll immediately notice how many American businesses have R&D labs there. One of Intel's latest microprocessors was developed in Israel.

It makes no sense. 95% of the citizens (not government) in every Middle East country despises Israel's policies. So in other words, if we cut off ties with Israel our war against terrorism and extremism would diminish sooner than later.

Cut off ties with Israel? That's absurd.

 

I'm all for us using our alliance with Israel to nudge them towards the peace table with the Palestinians, but I don't think severing ties with one of our democratic allies makes any sense.

[Koa]

Just askin' a question, homey.

 

And PS, Israel didn't exist until after the Holocaust.

 

I realize this oh wise one. What I am trying to communicate to you is that I support Israel. I think the Hollocaust was a horrible event. I think Israel deserves our support and am proud to offer it. I'm just sayin.

 

What's the point of supporting Israel? Because of the Holocaust? They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough? Do you support the billions of aide we ship over their while our country is growing its deficit? What do they do for us? Seriously, I think its a joke.

[Guest mz.]

They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough?

 

You sound like a petulant child who was left without a chair when the music stopped.

 

Why you'd support regimes that despise democracy over ones that foster it is beyond me. Please re-read Alo's response to you if you are still having trouble. He can discuss this way more eloquently than I.

[Guest Aloysius]

What's the point of supporting Israel? Because of the Holocaust? They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough?

Yes, that seems like a fair trade: 6 million slaughtered so that 600,000 could have a state

 

Actually, it wasn't even 600,000 in 1948. Well, it was, but then 6,000 Israelis lost their lives fighting off the invading Arab armies.

[Legacy Fan]

That seems like a cliche "they hate us because of our freedom" campaign slogan. Heres a thought, maybe they hate us because we're tailgating in their backyard and stealing their beer (oil).

 

Wow. Your top customer that pays in advance for your product is now "stealing"? How well does that go over at a lunch?

[Guest Aloysius]

Please re-read Alo's response to you if you are still having trouble. He can discuss this way more eloquently than I.

Ha. Thanks.

 

One of the things I love about this board is that I end up defending a Palestinian in one thread & Israel in another. Hopefully, I've convinced a few people here that those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[Westside Steve]

We agree here. I just think there are reasons beyond the Holocaust as well.

 

Including the fact that a majority of the enemies of Israel happen to hate our way of life just as much. Sometimes common enemies is enough...

 

That seems like a cliche "they hate us because of our freedom" campaign slogan. Heres a thought, maybe they hate us because we're tailgating in their backyard and stealing their beer (oil).

 

 

They hate us because humans need someone to hate.

The Sheiks have trillions in oil the people have jack shit.

Looks like they're in bed with the big bad US.

(and they are)

People like Osama (and Hitler ) want power.

Like Hitler targeted the Jews Osama targets the west.

Hell boys look at American TV through their eyes. Every American throws money away while they have hot rocks and dirt.

So if it wastn't for the great satan they'd share in the riches.

Bullshit but it's human nature.

 

Ask yourself what WW2 Germans might say if polles about what would make them like the US or Russia more.

 

 

WSS

[Guest Aloysius]

lets just leave isreal while we are leaving iraq.

I know what will save money lets leave every one alone and let them battle it out.

Maybe we can watch it live.

After an another obamination speach.

Ha. It's funny how two of the people ardently defending Israel here are Obama supporters.

 

And if I had to guess, I'd say that Mr. Koa isn't an Obama supporter. Considering the anti-foreign tirade he just went on, I'm betting he's a Pat Buchanan or Ron Paul type.

[Guest mz.]

Ha. It's funny how two of the people ardently defending Israel here are Obama supporters.

 

But remember, all Lefties go with the flow 100% of the time and cannot discern between what they really believe and what the Party tells them to believe.

 

Might I add that even when I agree with WSS on an issue, his explanations are fucking grating.

[Koa]

I'm sorry but when did I call Iran or Syria "non-violent"? I believe these are aggressive countries that don't serve our interest, but I believe Israel has a far more decorated history of violence and aggression than either. Shall I elaborate?

 

Maybe you should read into the USS Liberty. During the Six Day War, Israeli warplanes attacked the USS Liberty killing 34 US servicemen. Or perhaps the Sabra and Shatila Massacre. In 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) directed militiamen into the Lebanese villages of Sabra and Shatila killing upwards of 4,000 Lebanese men, women, and children. This massacre was blamed on the late Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. If he were to step foot into Hungary he would have been tried as a war criminal. What about Jonathan Pollard? He was a convicted of espionage for selling sensitive and classified US material at Israel's request. We can also look at Israel's history with the UN Security Council. They have 88 resolutions criticizing their violent and oppressive behavior... more than any other country. I'm sure you remember Israel's recent Hezbollah retaliation by completely grazing the infrastructure of Lebanon. I can go on and on. Even rogue countries like Iran haven't attacked another country with such malice.

 

Furthermore, what I meant was that Israel receives the most foreign aide compared to any other country. As of 1997, that aide was up to $75,000,000,000. Also, the total American taxpayer cost per Israeli is $24,000. Imagine what it is 10 years later! http://www.washington-report.org/html/u ... israel.htm

 

Like I said before, they do not serve any vital interests of the United States. As for your Intel comment, Israel's recent contribution to high-technology was fueled by the influx of American intelligence and aide over the past four decades and not internal innovation. What resource do they provide America besides tourism and creating distaste within the Arab community for us. Certainly no natural resources. I believe the US is more prone to terrorist attack due to our alliance with the country more than anything else... why you ask?

 

How exactly can we mediate the Israeli-Palestinian peace process when we are biased in all respects towards Israel? You can't expect Arabs to comply when their isn't a level playing field.

[Koa]

What's the point of supporting Israel? Because of the Holocaust? They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough?

Yes, that seems like a fair trade: 6 million slaughtered so that 600,000 could have a state

 

Actually, it wasn't even 600,000 in 1948. Well, it was, but then 6,000 Israelis lost their lives fighting off the invading Arab armies.

 

Instead of rolling your eyes maybe you should just chalk it down as a terrible event regarding human history instead of disregarding the fact Israel as a country serves us no purpose.

 

-How about the upwards of 40 million killed under Communist Mao Tse Tung?

-Over 20 million were killed under the Stalin regime.

-In Rwanda their Holocaust lasted for twelve years while the U.S. and Europe did nothing.

-The "Killing Fields" of Cambodia by the Communist Pol Pot consumed about 3-5 million people.

 

As you can see the Jewish Holocaust isn't the only tragic event to happen in our history.

[Koa]

They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough?

 

Why you'd support regimes that despise democracy over ones that foster it is beyond me.

 

This is the second time I've been misinterpreted or misquoted in this thread alone. Where do I show support for regimes that despise democracy? I'm simply comparing Israel with said countries and showing you there is no difference in terms of aggressive behavior/violence.

 

Dude, seriously, visit Gaza or the West Bank where Palestinians dwell then stroll through the brick-lined streets of fashionable Tel Aviv. You'll see how Palestinians are strangled mentally and economically by Israeli sanctions, checkpoints, and apartheid behavior. Palestinians have played a negative role in the conflict as well, but the US hasn't taken effective steps to allow a level playing field where Arabs can feel "accepted".