Time to defend Daboll, at least to SOME degree!

[Canton Mike]

Daboll seems to be the target of the "FIRE HIM" group. This man has the most to work with of any of our Coordinators..Right?..

He has:

1) FANTASTIC WRs. HELP!!!...We have NO WRs.

2) A SOLID right side of the O-line..especially when a starter or 2 goes down. Pray for no more injuries!

3) A SOLID RB to spell Hillis without a huge drop off in production. If Hillis goes down, we're DEAD!

RIGHT??...Daboll does not have a whole lot with which to work.

WOW!...He has a real CAKE job!!! How can we lose?

I was not a fan of the Daboll hiring, but is it really fair to run him out of town at this point? Yes, he has made mistakes & WILL make mistakes, but he has also come up with some VERY creative calls. Looking at the season, I'm somewhat impressed with what he has done, especially considering the lack of tools at his disposal. If we address the 3 areas I mentioned above, THEN I believe we can look at the coaching aspect. I'm not saying he's great, but I'm also not willing to give up on him. Who among us can come forward & say this is an offense that is worse than we've seen the last 2 years. It is actually much better.

 

Here's League ranking for those who PRAISE Rob Ryan, yet FRY Daboll:

 

Total Yards.. Offense #28 Passing... Offense #30 Rushing... Offense #15

Defense #24 Defense #23 Defense #21

 

Not exactly a DOMINANT defense either, is it? My point is, WHY can we overlook Rob's mistakes & not Brian's? NEITHER has all the tools they need to excel. Now, our depth is MUCH improved & our top subs, along with some solid starters, have pushed our Special Teams to #1 (I believe I'm right?).

I beg of you, as Brown's Fans, to show more patience after a loss or even POOR performance. Personally, I am elated that we can still be cheering & hoping for a win late in virtually EVERY game this year. Given the staff & FO we have & the continued acquisition of more quality players, we WILL be winners.

The glass is 1/2 full...continuity will fill it.

Mike

 

 

 

 

[steel88]

Daboll seems to be the target of the "FIRE HIM" group. This man has the most to work with of any of our Coordinators..Right?..

He has:

1) FANTASTIC WRs. HELP!!!...We have NO WRs.

2) A SOLID right side of the O-line..especially when a starter or 2 goes down. Pray for no more injuries!

3) A SOLID RB to spell Hillis without a huge drop off in production. If Hillis goes down, we're DEAD!

RIGHT??...Daboll does not have a whole lot with which to work.

WOW!...He has a real CAKE job!!! How can we lose?

I was not a fan of the Daboll hiring, but is it really fair to run him out of town at this point? Yes, he has made mistakes & WILL make mistakes, but he has also come up with some VERY creative calls. Looking at the season, I'm somewhat impressed with what he has done, especially considering the lack of tools at his disposal. If we address the 3 areas I mentioned above, THEN I believe we can look at the coaching aspect. I'm not saying he's great, but I'm also not willing to give up on him. Who among us can come forward & say this is an offense that is worse than we've seen the last 2 years. It is actually much better.

 

Here's League ranking for those who PRAISE Rob Ryan, yet FRY Daboll:

 

Total Yards.. Offense #28 Passing... Offense #30 Rushing... Offense #15

Defense #24 Defense #23 Defense #21

 

Not exactly a DOMINANT defense either, is it? My point is, WHY can we overlook Rob's mistakes & not Brian's? NEITHER has all the tools they need to excel. Now, our depth is MUCH improved & our top subs, along with some solid starters, have pushed our Special Teams to #1 (I believe I'm right?).

I beg of you, as Brown's Fans, to show more patience after a loss or even POOR performance. Personally, I am elated that we can still be cheering & hoping for a win late in virtually EVERY game this year. Given the staff & FO we have & the continued acquisition of more quality players, we WILL be winners.

The glass is 1/2 full...continuity will fill it.

Mike

 

That makes way to much sense to be posted here, please take it down.

[philbert79]

I agree that there isn't much talent on either side of the ball, but it's hard to compare the coordinators to each other. There is such a big difference in the way each side of the ball is called during the game. Defense is reactionary by nature. Sure it has a game plan and a scheme, but it needs to be adjust rather quickly. The offense walks onto the field with the 1st ten or so plays called and will run those plays no matter what. They are designed to establish the game plan early and force the opposing defense to adapt. I know what the stats say about total yards, rushing yards, passing yards, etc... but the only one that really matters and what I think is the true ranking of a defense is points allowed, for which the Browns defense is ranked #10 in the league. I really hope you're not trying to pin this or last week's losses on the defense. Six turnovers and all the offense can produce is 10 points? Not including those points which came off short fields and you're left with 3 offensive points generated by the offense. Unacceptable. This leads me back to Daboll...

 

From what I've seen, Daboll does really well when calling a game with a lead. He doesn't do so well when he needs to adjust the game plan. It's the main reason we see an 10-0 team in the first 3 quarters and a 3-7 team in the 4th. He becomes predictable and doesn't seem to quite get the concept of adjustments. We saw them move the ball really well with play action pass and screens against Jacksonville and then, it seems like Daboll took the ball out of Colt's hand with the lead in the 4th quarter. The Jacksonville defense did a nice job taking away Hillis in the run game, so why not throw out to him in the flat? Because you're taught you need to run the ball to keep the clock moving? Not if you have to punt on 4th and long after 2 run plays gain 3 yards and a 6 yard sack on 3rd down. When you're running the ball well (see vs. Saints, vs. Patriots, vs. Ravens, vs. Bengals) then it's fine to hand it off and let Peyton drive home the nail in the coffin. When the run game is taken away (see vs. Falcons, vs. Jets, vs. Jaguars) then you have to do something different. I'm not sure he has the ability to recognize and adapt to that situation. It seems the only times he really looks good are the first drive (scripted before the game), final minutes of the half when driving for a win or tie (smaller playbook and Colt's really in charge there), or with a comfortable enough lead that he doesn't have to worry too much about making a mistake.

 

I think this is the main reason I'm ready to see Daboll go. Answer this... Is Daboll the guy you want starting next season? If the answer is "no", then I think it's time to let him go now and not let Colt get attached. If the answer is "yes", then I'm not sure we're watching the same tape.

[WRREBEL]

I agree fire them all and let god sort them out

[Zombo]

Daboll seems to be the target of the "FIRE HIM" group. This man has the most to work with of any of our Coordinators..Right?..

He has:

1) FANTASTIC WRs. HELP!!!...We have NO WRs.

2) A SOLID right side of the O-line..especially when a starter or 2 goes down. Pray for no more injuries!

3) A SOLID RB to spell Hillis without a huge drop off in production. If Hillis goes down, we're DEAD!

RIGHT??...Daboll does not have a whole lot with which to work.

WOW!...He has a real CAKE job!!! How can we lose?

I was not a fan of the Daboll hiring, but is it really fair to run him out of town at this point? Yes, he has made mistakes & WILL make mistakes, but he has also come up with some VERY creative calls. Looking at the season, I'm somewhat impressed with what he has done, especially considering the lack of tools at his disposal. If we address the 3 areas I mentioned above, THEN I believe we can look at the coaching aspect. I'm not saying he's great, but I'm also not willing to give up on him. Who among us can come forward & say this is an offense that is worse than we've seen the last 2 years. It is actually much better.

 

Here's League ranking for those who PRAISE Rob Ryan, yet FRY Daboll:

 

Total Yards.. Offense #28 Passing... Offense #30 Rushing... Offense #15

Defense #24 Defense #23 Defense #21

 

Not exactly a DOMINANT defense either, is it? My point is, WHY can we overlook Rob's mistakes & not Brian's? NEITHER has all the tools they need to excel. Now, our depth is MUCH improved & our top subs, along with some solid starters, have pushed our Special Teams to #1 (I believe I'm right?).

I beg of you, as Brown's Fans, to show more patience after a loss or even POOR performance. Personally, I am elated that we can still be cheering & hoping for a win late in virtually EVERY game this year. Given the staff & FO we have & the continued acquisition of more quality players, we WILL be winners.

The glass is 1/2 full...continuity will fill it.

Mike

 

I think Daboll has done a pretty good job managing the offense with a rookie QB and no WRs to speak of. With the exception of the jags game, where we should have passed more on first down IMO, he think he has done a good job since Colt has been in there.

 

Zombo

--At the end of the day it's very hard to win the race if you don't have the horses.

[hx214]

1) FANTASTIC WRs. HELP!!!...We have NO WRs.

 

We have men on the team that have played WR for a very long time and have had good enough success to get them into the best football league in the world.

 

You're telling me that he doesn't know by now that Robo can't run the routes that he has for him? How about sliding him down into the slot so he can work against a small nickel back or linebacker and hit him on short quick passes so he can use his bigger body/speed faster than a LB to make a catch.

 

How about finding a way to keep your best hands reciever (Evan Moore) on the field for more than 2 plays a game.

 

It's his job to scheme plays around the talent he has, it's not like the Browns started the season with Moss, D. Jackson, A. Johnson and D. Bowe on the roster and he suddenly has these guys he has to work with.

 

2) A SOLID right side of the O-line..especially when a starter or 2 goes down. Pray for no more injuries!

 

Maybe you should tell Daboll his right side of the line blows! Then I bet he wouldn't call pass plays that require a five step drop from his QB and time for a WR (that I guess he should know isn't good enough to get open down field) to run a long route.

 

Maybe someone should let him know that his Rookie QB used to run the spread at Texas... you know short quick passes, kind of like an extended run game that keeps the clock moving.... I guess he thinks the guys he has that made it to the NFL as WR's can't catch 3 yards passes though...

 

3) A SOLID RB to spell Hillis without a huge drop off in production. If Hillis goes down, we're DEAD!

 

That's his own damn fault. He sat Harrison on the bench while he ran the wheels off of Hillis every game. At that point why do we need Harrison? Might as well dump him now.

 

James Davis would have been a nice little back to feature out of the backfield in the passing/screen game. What's that? He didn't use him either? He kept Hillis in the game for 95% of the snaps? See ya JD.

 

Made his own run game completely one sided.

 

How hard is it to design a defensive run scheme when the opposing team has 3 running backs that run the ball in the same manner?

 

1. Stack the box.

2. Crash the line.

3. Don't worry about the corners, they have no speed backs.

 

When Hillis is effective then there is nothing they can do. When a team like the Jags is able to bottle him up and stop that type of run, your screwed because you have no other options.

 

And if Daboll had no say in who stays and who gets traded in the offense, then why have him at all? Let the guy making those calls run the Offense.

 

 

 

Mike, I know what you are saying about dumping coaches in the middle of the season, but it's not like this is Daboll's first blown rodeo. We all watched his garbage last season and he has still failed to make adjustments.

 

And you said it yourself. Subtract Hillis from this equation and what does his offense look like?

 

You or I could strap on the OC Head set and send the "Run Hillis" call into the QB just as effectively as Daboll.

[slowburn]

Dabolls perfomance can defended statistically by evaluating the offensive numbers from last year. The rise isn't spectacular, but considering the challenges he's faced I feel he has earned to right to continue:

 

1. The QB merry-go-round due to injuries. He was challenged with designing specific offensive plays and developing an offensive game plans for three QB's. His starter, as determined in camp, was coming off

 

his worst year in the league. Wallace is a career back up who had yet to prove himself and Colt was a rookie with questionable potential. Not the best talent pool. Becuse of the ankle injuries early in the

 

season, I don't think he had the chance to develop a scheme that would take would focus on each QB's strengths and weaknesses. Not an excuse, but it explains a sometime unimaginative, watered down

 

offense.

 

2. His wide receivers aren't respected. Defenses are able to play single man coverage freeing up players to stack the line and/or blitz. The o line for the most part has done a decent job protecting the QB

 

and opening up lanes for Hillis, but as seen Sunday in Jacksonville when the running game breaks down the Brown's are dead in the water.

 

3. The running game needs a better one-two punch to keep the defense off balance.

 

It is difficult to make adjustments when your offfensive options are limited. For sake of continuity, let's see what Daboll can with a few more offensive weapons. Then we can better judge.

[Speedyd900rr]

I really wish we would of used Cribbs more in the running game. He has the potential to be a great RB. With him and Hillis in there, they would tire the opposing teams defense pretty quick imo.

[WRREBEL]

Listen as much as I don't like mangini or daboll, I believe they both probably should get the benefit of the doubt..

 

I mean how many other teams would have a winning record or a solid offense with the qb injuries we have had.. minus pitt who had guys who were played in there system and has a dominate d.

 

I think mangini will have to win 2 or 3 more games to save his job.

[philbert79]

Listen as much as I don't like mangini or daboll, I believe they both probably should get the benefit of the doubt..

 

I mean how many other teams would have a winning record or a solid offense with the qb injuries we have had.. minus pitt who had guys who were played in there system and has a dominate d.

 

I think mangini will have to win 2 or 3 more games to save his job.

 

I'd agree if the QB play hadn't improved with each injury. Colt has played better than Seneca, who played better than Jake.

 

Slownurn: a poor craftsman blames his tools.

 

I agree with hx214 for the most part. A good coordinator would be able to win with what he's got. How would you know if you have the next Welker or Miles Austin if you don't try something different. The only part I don't agree with is your assessment of the RB situation. I think the Mike Bell acquisition made a lot of sense. You don't want 2 different types of runners. That will just tip them off as to what you're doing. And while Hillis doesn't have elite speed, he can out run most backers and is a match-up problem for DBs.

 

[Harry Buffalo]

Daboll seems to be the target of the "FIRE HIM" group. This man has the most to work with of any of our Coordinators..Right?..

He has:

1) FANTASTIC WRs. HELP!!!...We have NO WRs.

2) A SOLID right side of the O-line..especially when a starter or 2 goes down. Pray for no more injuries!

3) A SOLID RB to spell Hillis without a huge drop off in production. If Hillis goes down, we're DEAD!

RIGHT??...Daboll does not have a whole lot with which to work.

WOW!...He has a real CAKE job!!! How can we lose?

I was not a fan of the Daboll hiring, but is it really fair to run him out of town at this point? Yes, he has made mistakes & WILL make mistakes, but he has also come up with some VERY creative calls. Looking at the season, I'm somewhat impressed with what he has done, especially considering the lack of tools at his disposal. If we address the 3 areas I mentioned above, THEN I believe we can look at the coaching aspect. I'm not saying he's great, but I'm also not willing to give up on him. Who among us can come forward & say this is an offense that is worse than we've seen the last 2 years. It is actually much better.

 

Here's League ranking for those who PRAISE Rob Ryan, yet FRY Daboll:

 

Total Yards.. Offense #28 Passing... Offense #30 Rushing... Offense #15

Defense #24 Defense #23 Defense #21

 

Not exactly a DOMINANT defense either, is it? My point is, WHY can we overlook Rob's mistakes & not Brian's? NEITHER has all the tools they need to excel. Now, our depth is MUCH improved & our top subs, along with some solid starters, have pushed our Special Teams to #1 (I believe I'm right?).

I beg of you, as Brown's Fans, to show more patience after a loss or even POOR performance. Personally, I am elated that we can still be cheering & hoping for a win late in virtually EVERY game this year. Given the staff & FO we have & the continued acquisition of more quality players, we WILL be winners.

The glass is 1/2 full...continuity will fill it.

Mike

 

Ryan's defense still finds ways to get the job done. We haven't let a team score more than 28 points all season, shutting down some of the best offenses. Hell our games against the saints and patriots weren't won by the offense, they were won by the defense. Our offense has been the reason for us losing all these games. You can't win too many games when your offense only scores on average 1.5 touchdowns a game.

[professor_g]

I'm a die-hard Daboll fan. We're 7-7 over the last 14 games because we've managed to piece together a legitimate running game with no-name backs and lack of stability on the line. For someone who loves to watch great running and run-blocking, this team can be a ton of fun. Let's just stop these painful, last-minute losses!

[Canton Mike]

I'm not badmouthing the D, but let's not say the D does ALL the adjusting & put all the negatives on the offense......just a few examples...

 

Ravens beat us 24-17

Boldin 8 catches for 142 yds & burns Wright for 3 easy TDs (that's 21 points folks!)...HOW did we adjust? Was Wright replaced?

Bengals.. we won 23-20

While possession was literally even (we had it 1 minute longer), Cinci amassed 413 yds, TO had 10 catches for 222 yds....had it NOT been for the offense with sustained drives, the D would have lost it.

Patriots...we won 34-14

We had possession 16 minutes LONGER than the Pats...while this was a well played game on both sides of the ball, it was the OFFENSE who kept Brady & the Pats offense OFF the field.....THAT was the key to that win.

 

I'm not badmouthing our D, but if you are unable to see the improvement in our offense as you've seen on D, you're not looking at the total picture. We still need a lot of help on BOTH sides of the ball. If the offense flounders, it's Daboll's fault. If the defense flounders, it's Mangini's fault.....That's all hogwash! The greatest Coaches & Coordinators in history can't win without the players. Don't tell me about the experience of COLLEGE WRs either...that means NOTHING once they hit the NFL.

Mike

 

[philbert79]

I didn't think you were badmouthing the D. I was just pointing out that the stats and coordinators shouldn't be compared to each other.

 

BUT, since you have now started to badmouth them, I feel somewhat compelled to defend them...

 

They didn't adjust in the Baltimore game and it cost us. But they did eventually replace Wright with Haden somewhere around the bye week.

 

Again, Wright was victimized in the Bengals game, and if I remember correctly, the big play came off Sheldon Brown tripping on TO's shoe, but you are correct... the offensive drives kept the Bengals offense off the field.

 

And they thoroughly dominated the Pats on both sides of the ball in the trenches. You don't think the defensive scheme in that game helped at all? Not to mention the fumble they forced on the goal line at the end of the first half that kept the Browns comfortably ahead at half time knowing they'd get the ball back to start the 3rd?

 

All that said, the games you've brought up go more to prove my point than contest it. In each of these games, the opposing defense could not stop Peyton Hillis. There were no adjustments needed on offense to maintain the lead and Hillis could just continue to run all over the other team. It's in this area that I've seen improvement in the play of the offense. When they're able to establish the run, their offense is a threat. If not, they seem lost. I have to put that on the guy with the headset on, calling the plays. If Daboll's not that guy, why is he there? If he is the guy, why is he still there?

 

My opinions on this subject are not based on a limited amount of games or situations. He's been the OC here for a year and a half now and I just don't think he's the guy that will develop the young talent we do have on this team to legitimate offensive threat.

 

All said and done, in Holmgren I trust. I'm confident he's going to put the right guy in place. I'd be surprised if Daboll's back next year. And if we don't see a massive improvement in the management of this offense, I don't know that he'll make it through the year. We shall see.

 

 

[Canton Mike]

P79,

Please don't get me wrong. The main point I make is that we really CAN'T judge the Coaches given the talent (or lack of) with which they have to work. It just seems like Daboll has become a "whipping boy" & I DO get tired of that. I don't know how how he will ultimately pan out, but he sure deserves more of a chance than some have given him. IMHO, we will NEVER be a contender if we continue with the "revolving door" for coaches. I have some criticisms for the coaching staff & here are some of mine...

1) WHY have we continued to play an obviously injured QB, RB, etc when we risk further injury to them AND usually sacrifice production? Examples would be DelHomme, Hillis, & Colt.

2) WHY don't we replace starters when they aren't getting it done, or try something different? Examples here are usage (lack of) of Evan Moore, trying Cribbs at RB (when healthy I think it would be his best position & a GREAT teaming with Hillis), sitting Wright completely for a couple games, Mitchell IN the passing game.

 

My argument for trying "unproven" skill players (other than O & D line) is that, like Colt, all through practice & pre season, these guys labored with 3rd & 4th teamers....Let's try 'em & SEE how they perform when lined up with the starters. This is my main criticism with our Coaching staff as a whole. Would I FIRE them because of it?.....NO! The Browns are playing better & harder than we've seen since they've been back, & I want that to continue. Replacing coaches at this point would kill the continuity & we all know how that can set us back. Let's stay the course & see what tomorrow brings.

BTW, I DID say that both sides of the ball played very well in the Pat's game. I simply mentioned, and rightly so, that keeping their offensive unit OFF the field was the key.

Mike

[philbert79]

I couldn't agree more with you about stopping the revolving door. Unfortunately I believe it starts by bringing different guys in that understand the front office's goals and guys that the front office trusts. I'm just not sure the staff we have is what Holmgren wants. I hear what you're saying about continuity, but what it will hurt more if we let the current situation carry on and pass on a better option to maintain continuity. I'm really torn between letting Daboll go now and letting him expose his true identity over the last few weeks this year. Wins aren't enough. He has to show that he has what it takes to call a game from behind and win it. This is not something we've been able to do the last 2 years. We just keep losing close games, this year's Bengals game being the exception.

 

I'm really not trying to make Daboll out to be the whipping boy. He just happens to be the weakest link in a rusty chain, in my opinion. I thought Mangini was gonna be a bust, but he's been ok. Ryan has been the brightest spot on this staff since coming in. The main reason I like Ryan so much is that he has what seems to be a tremendous repoir with everyone on the sideline. When I see Joe Thomas run up and chest bump Ryan after a big stop, that tells me they like having him around. Not that Daboll isn't getting the same treatment, it's just not as prevalent.

 

Again I totally agree with you about bringing in some other guys that Colt has worked with all year. Mitchell seems like an obvious choice as does Even Moore. I think part of the issue is that those guys don't get nearly as much time running their own offense as they do their upcoming opponent's as the scout team. Especially for the rookies. As for Cribbs qt tailback, I'm just not sure his body can hold up. We've seen him in this role a couple times and he didn't look comfortable with the reads. I like him at WR. He's shown a lot of improvement in his hands and I really think he can be a legitimate Z receiver in the mold of Larry Fitzgerald. This will protect his body a little better and still allow him to return kicks and run the Flash package.

 

Wright needs to get better now or go. I really miss Brandon McDonald. I understand the business side of things, but feel we sacrificed depth at DB. Ah well. Like you said, not worth firing them over. Besides it's really not their fault.

 

Great discussion. Thank you.