Bye Bye Mangini

[Mark O]

Mike Lombardi of NFL.com wrote today that Mangini was on a short leash before the season and the last 2 losses sealed his fate. He picks John Fox as the most likely replacement.

 

 

[WRREBEL]

I'm not that hyped up on john fox. Knowing our luck he will try to revive jake delhommes career..

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I think gruden gets a bad rap when it comes to some of his x players. Simeon Rice called him a scumbag, cause he was released after being injured. Simeon was a popular player and it didnt go over well with some of the players im sure. It was a business move and was best for the team.

 

None of the players Mangini traded called him a scumbag. They only trash talked to organization, and the city. Not one word about the type of person or coach Mangini was.

 

When he coached in Oakland he was able to do what other coaches havent be able to do and that is win with a crappy owner. He is a fiery guy who is from the same tree as Holmgren. As far as the knock he cant develop young qbs, not really fair cause he only had Chris simms. He is an extremely smart guy, as is mangini.

 

His first two years, he went .500 both seasons. It's not winning, but it's not losing. It's better than Mangini's first two years, I'll give you that. It's not Mangini's fault he's coaching a team in the AFC North, where 8-8 doesn't get you second place in the division. Last year, 8-8 would still have gotten us 4th place.

 

 

 

Let me ask you, do you really think Mangini is the guy to get us to a superbowl? Players in New York wore thin on his act. I think Mangini has so much going against him.

 

This is just an opinion.

 

 

Let's look at the facts. When Jon Gruden showed up, the Raiders had:

 

Steve Wisniewski, perennial Pro Bowler at Offensive Guard.

Lincoln Kennedy, Pro Bowl Right Tackle.

Tim Brown at WR, 9x Pro Bowler and 1000+ yards almost every season. A legitimate #1 WR.

Charles Woodson at corner. Enough said.

E-Rock at the other corner (until his untimely death).

Darrell Russell, Pro Bowl defensive tackle.

 

They went 8-8 Gruden's first year with a stable of QB's. Then, in 1999, Gruden adds Rich Gannon and Tyrone Wheatley, and that's when things started happening. Another 8-8 season while the team started to jell and then, in 2000, they make it to the AFC Championship. Rich Gannon throws for 3480 yards, 28 TD's and 11 INT's. Tyrone Wheatley rushes for over 1000 yards and 9 touchdowns. Tim Brown posts another 1000+ yard season.

 

The Raiders defense that year finished 9th, ours finished 10th this season. The only difference in the Raiders 2000 season and our current season is that the Raiders had an offense. Jon Gruden inherited a team that had some studs on it, maybe a little old, but playmakers nonetheless. Gruden added a QB and an RB. That's it. That's all they needed, sided with some strong coaching.

 

Mangini, on the other hand, had to completely rebuild a team from the bottom up. We had two and a half playmakers, and they didn't want to be here. So he got rid of them. He added a QB, he added a RB, a CB and a SS. We're a WR and a RT away from having a team that can compete. And compete in a better division, I might add.

 

 

I don't see why Mangini isn't the guy to lead us to a Super Bowl. Why don't you think he's the guy?

 

 

[shepwrite]

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...12/post_71.html

 

Steve D. mentions it, too. I'll go get it.

[ClevelandBigDawg]

Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.

 

There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.

 

I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.

 

I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.

[medicineman]

Im a little happy with our 5 wins. If you looked at our roster at before the season began some would say we would be lucky to win a game. But with a very impressive year from Hillis and Mcoy we have a positive foundation. Let Eric get us a vet wr and maybe draft another wr we are heading in the right direction. Replace Daboll and a stud de we will be good. ImO

[shepwrite]

BTW, Steve D. sees Holmgren coaching next year before handing off to Gruden in 2012.

 

http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x180877300...h-in-the-mirror

[shepwrite]

Mike Lombardi of NFL.com wrote today that Mangini was on a short leash before the season and the last 2 losses sealed his fate. He picks John Fox as the most likely replacement.

 

I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.

[medicineman]

We just have to wait and see.............Who knows mite not be nothing to see as there might not be a season anyhow.

[bringbackbrownie2]

Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.

 

There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.

 

I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.

 

I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.

 

I agree. I am willing to bet Holmgren hasn't even made up his mind yet. He has two more weeks of football to watch...

[medicineman]

I agree. I am willing to bet Holmgren hasn't even made up his mind yet. He has two more weeks of football to watch...

Very true. And I think Mike knows Eric did a good job with what he had. Ya we lost games we should have won but we also won games we should have lost.

[shepwrite]

Here's PFT sort of summing it up. They connected the effort quotes to Mangini's future as well:

 

 

Speculation increases about Mangini’s future in Cleveland

 

Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on December 20, 2010, 1:52 PM EST

 

Don’t tell Browns coach Eric Mangini that December games are meaningless for losing teams.

 

Last year, a four-game winning streak to close the season saved Mangini’s job. This season, back-to-back losses to the Bills and Bengals have folks in Cleveland believing that Mangini could be on his way out.

 

Marla Ridnour of the Akron Beacon-Journal believes that “not even a split” of the Browns’ final two games would save Mangini’s job. Dennis Manoloff of the Cleveland Plain-Dealer also believes the entire coaching staff will be gone unless the Browns win the last two games. (The same paper said last week Mangini needed to win two of their final three games for him to stay.)

 

Rookie quarterback Colt McCoy partially blamed the team’s effort for the loss.

 

“It’s our division — you’ve got to get hyped up. I thought early on we lacked a little bit of energy — we lacked a little bit of intensity,” McCoy said.

 

The Browns gave up 188 yards rushing, and only had one rushing first down on offense. Essentially, the Browns looked like the opposite of what we’ve come to expect from a team that has mostly played better than their 5-9 record indicates.

 

Once again, the team’s December play may decide Mangini’s January fate.

 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.

 

 

It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.

 

It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.

 

This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.

 

 

This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.

[medicineman]

You can't always blame a loss on the coach. Yes we as fans want people held accountable but that don't always hang on the coach.

[drake54]

TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.

[shepwrite]

It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.

 

It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.

 

This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.

 

 

This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.

 

You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or fair... but when players on a 5-9 team question effort or motivation, it always looks bad for the head coach. The buck stops there, as they say. The takeaway is that the coach isn't able to get all his players to play hard every Sunday, which tends to piss off GMs, presidents, and owners.

 

It's just the way it is. Nothing to do with what I do or don't want. I don't hate Mangini at all... but I think he's toast.

[1 more season]

TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.

 

What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.

 

EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.

 

I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

If I tried to do that, Mikey, I'd be faking it. I know Walsh's offense uses two backs, usually two receivers, and a TE. I know it's heavy on slants, bigger "YAC" receivers, and a very high-percentage passing game. Needs an accurate passer but not necessarily a cannon and mobility is a really good thing.

 

I know that Haskell/Holmgren have integrated "WCO elements" into Daboll's offense, which indirectly comes from the Parcells coaching tree, which I believe runs the same offense as the Jimmy Johnson coaching tree because they're both from the same source I can't remember (but someone else has brought up). This offense and the WCO are the two major "trees."

 

Was it the Alabama coach who became coach of the Giants 30 years ago? And does it connect to Coryell in any way? I know Walsh comes from Paul Brown and was the one who coined WCO.

 

It would be awesome if somebody could delineate these coaching trees and offenses. It's pretty fascinating.

 

 

Every offense is connected nowadays. That's why this "He wants him because he's a WCO guy" is just ridiculous. A good coach curtails his game plan to be effective against the team that he's playing each week. For a coach to do that, the offense has to be familiar with many types of offenses, or else they'd be learning a completely new playbook each week. There's a reason it takes rookie QB's a season or two to become completely comfortable with a team's playbook.

 

If anything, these terms "WCO" and "Air Coryell" and "Erhardt-Perkins" come down to just the nomenclature of the plays as well as just a mindset, not necessarily the way a play is run. For instance, Walsh believed heavily on scripting his first 20 or so plays, that's a "West Coast" thing to do. But you can script your first 20 plays no matter what offense you run.

 

That's why I think bringing in a new coordinator and head coach to implement a new "system" at this point would be counterproductive. That means all of the offensive players are going to have to learn an entirely new vocabulary. Audibles will be completely different. A simple inside slant to the slot receiver could go from "Zero Mountain Slot South, Fourteen Fly Kong" in our current system to "Flex Right Heavy 824, Swing Circle" in the new system. Imagine that, multiplied by about 300 times. And that's not including the audibles.

 

That's why Alex Smith has struggled so much in his short career, he's had 5 different OCs in his 6 years. You can't win when you change a system over and over again.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or fair... but when players on a 5-9 team question effort or motivation, it always looks bad for the head coach. The buck stops there, as they say. The takeaway is that the coach isn't able to get all his players to play hard every Sunday, which tends to piss off GMs, presidents, and owners.

 

It's just the way it is. Nothing to do with what I do or don't want. I don't hate Mangini at all... but I think he's toast.

 

 

I understand what you're saying. And when I said "you" in my last post, I didn't mean specifically you. I just mean it as each person has their own agenda, so they'll read it how they want to read it.

 

It's going to look bad on Mangini because the media in Cleveland has hated him since day one. And they won't change how they feel about him. So they'll try and tear him down no matter what. You'll notice last year, when we went on the end of the season streak, nobody in the media was saying "Well, good job Mangini for getting your players up and pumped". It was "Where the hell has this been all season, why couldn't you have done it then?"

 

 

[1 more season]

Shep break down for me exactly what is different in a WCO and the Daboll offense?

 

Is this a serious question?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.

 

EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.

 

I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.

 

 

You're right, they didn't beat the best team in football, or the defending Super Bowl champions. You only see what you want to see.

 

A success over the Pats is going to mean more than a loss to the Bills because we were expected to lose to the Bills.

 

 

[longhorn]

Some of you folks talk as though we have the least talented, best coached team in football. I just don't see it. Neither our offense or our defense are good statistically. I said at least 5-6 weeks back that we could not run well to the middle or right and that teams were gonna stack up on Hillis which happened. I've seen nothing creative from the coaches to deal with that. The UFO defense has now been "identified". We lost at least two games at the very end with poor defense and awful tackling. Our offensive play calling has been highly questionable. As for Hillis and McCoy's comments, they are probably right on track. To me they question the desire of the players, not the coaches. If I were Holmgren I'd take a REAL hard look at Mangini, Ryan, et al on the coaching staff. I'd also be sure to uninvite any player back for 2011 who didn't put forth their best effort toward the end of the 2010 season. All coaches are expected to win with the team they have....that's just how it goes in the NFL.

 

 

[longhorn]

I thought it was Wallace's and Delhomme's ankles that told Holmgren and Mangini to play Colt.

 

These days the "WCO" (which is really not what it is anymore) is a fast-paced pass/run offense that is designed to spread the ball all over the field so defenses don't know whether to prepare for a pass or run on any given play and whether the ball goes left, middle or right. The QB reads the defense and runs the primary play or switches off to one or more pre-called alternate plays. Daboll's offense has been a little more limited than that, although he gets some serious slack from me for our wideouts (I won't call them receivers). Our offensive line has sucked badly too which dictates conservative calls or face more turnovers.

 

Colt ran this type of offense at Texas very effectively unlike his Chris Simms like replacement who is now at Texas (aka Gilbert the Grape).

[BrownB499]

Here's where Mangini differs from any before for him and I fear any who may come after him

 

Eric is looking to build a "culture" if you will,he searching out certain "types" that fit his "system"...that's right "system"

something we haven't experienced here for a while

 

He demands hardworking,self motivated,loyal,cerebral,dedicated players.

 

Right now some of those types aren't the most athletic,or talented players in the league,but they need to be here to set the example

for the Hadens,McCoys,Wards,and Hillis'... that are talented and athletic...and over time he'll replace the Trusniks,and Ventrones

with talented,athletic kids who will learn from Haden,McCoy,Ward and Hillis...They'll learn hard work,motivation,loyalty,etc.

 

They'll learn to be... Cleveland Browns

 

That's what I see Mangini's building here ...a team we can identify with...not just now but years from now

I really believe that if Gruden came here it would be all about winning today...and the hell with tomorrow

 

I look at a guy like Cam Wimbley...nice guy...but he never felt like a Cleveland Brown to me...hell I couldn't even tell you what number he wore

But I know Gene Hickerson wore 66,Tom Darden wore 27,Dick Ambrose was 52, Matthews 57,Shirk 72,Cockroft 12,Minnefield 31,Pruitt 34&43

 

How do I know this right off the top of my head,when I couldn't tell you what I had for supper last night?

because these guy's busted their ass for me,for us,for Cleveland every Sunday.

 

And that is what I believe Eric Mangini is trying to bring to Cleveland...a team that busts its ass for us every week,a team this city

can identify with...but its gonna take more time...more drafts...more talent

 

I really believe that if we give this guy 2 more years...that 30 years from now we'll all know who wore 23,12,43,and 40.

[1 more season]

You're right, they didn't beat the best team in football, or the defending Super Bowl champions. You only see what you want to see.

 

A success over the Pats is going to mean more than a loss to the Bills because we were expected to lose to the Bills.

 

There's more to a season than 2 games. Once the Browns returned to their old I knew everyone would be hanging onto those wins for a long time.

 

I don't see only what I want. You think I want to see the Browns play like this.

 

If this "process" was really working there would be a steady and consistent improvement. Not beat the best and lose for the worst, twice.

[DawgPoundPitt]

This is just my opinion but this is who i think will be the next coaching staff

 

HC: Mike Holmgren or Jon Gruden

 

OC: Jim Zorn

 

DC: John Fox

 

and i do believe who ever our next HC is we will make the change to a 4-3 Defence OR we will show multipul fronts

[longhorn]

After catching up on the board this evening I decided that, as a public service, I would make a trip to the local Palm Reader's house to ascertain the future of the Browns. I've got good news and bad news.

 

First the good news.

 

Mangini stays, Daboll goes. Chucky comes to Cleveland. Holmgren names Chucky as head coach and Mangini volunteers to become the Offensive Coordinator. A.J Green and Julio Jones go crazy and get arrested for indecent exposure. Both choose community service in lieu of jail time and volunteer to come to Cleveland for free. Justin Blackmon is traded to Cleveland from the Redskins....just because he is deemed to have a poor cardiovascular system. Ryan Broyles is also drafted by the Browns to run in the slot. We also pick up 2 all pro offensive linemen. Someone from Cleveland beats up their dog and then drives him to Michael Vick's house and he has to leave Philly in the middle of the night. He comes to Cleveland because he has always like the Dawgpound. Several key defensive pickups also occur. Sal Alosi is hired for the sole purpose of strengthening the defense to ensure solid tackling at the end of all close games.

 

Now the bad news. There is a lockout for all of 2011 so there are no games.

 

Now more good news. Our 2012 draft is even stronger than the 2011. We are loaded for the 2012 season. The 18 game season gets implemented too. As of the middle of December we are UNDEFEATED and a lock for home field advantage throughout the playoff's. The entire NFL is envious of the Browns. In a big surprise, the Steelers franchise crashes and the entire team is moved, during the middle of the night, to Canton where they become the Canton Clowns. Their team colors are changed to pink and white. Big Ben has to retire from football when he gets too friendly with a polar bear at the Canton Zoo and suffers a horrific injury.

 

Now for the really bad news. Those damn Mayans were right and the world ends on December 21, 2012 when there is a huge polar shift. The 2012 playoff's never happen. Only two people remain on earth and must repopulate the planet. Those two people are Jenn Sterger and Brett Favre.

 

 

 

 

[1 more season]

Here's where Mangini differs from any before for him and I fear any who may come after him

 

Eric is looking to build a "culture" if you will,he searching out certain "types" that fit his "system"...that's right "system"

something we haven't experienced here for a while

 

He demands hardworking,self motivated,loyal,cerebral,dedicated players.

 

Right now some of those types aren't the most athletic,or talented players in the league,but they need to be here to set the example

for the Hadens,McCoys,Wards,and Hillis'... that are talented and athletic...and over

time he'll replace the Trusniks,and Ventrones

with talented,athletic kids who will learn from Haden,McCoy,Ward and Hillis...They'll learn hard work,motivation,loyalty,etc.

 

They'll learn to be... Cleveland Browns

 

That's what I see Mangini's building here ...a team we can identify with...not just now but years from now

 

Wow, he's like King Arthur, George Washington and Captain Kirk all in one.

I really believe that if Gruden came here it would be all about winning today...and the hell with tomorrow

 

I look at a guy like Cam Wimbley...nice guy...but he never felt like a Cleveland Brown to me...hell I couldn't even tell you what number he wore

But I know Gene Hickerson wore 66,Tom Darden wore 27,Dick Ambrose was 52, Matthews 57,Shirk 72,Cockroft 12,Minnefield 31,Pruitt 34&43

 

How do I know this right off the top of my head,when I couldn't tell you what I had for supper last night?

because these guy's busted their ass for me,for us,for Cleveland every Sunday.

 

And that is what I believe Eric Mangini is trying to bring to Cleveland...a team that busts its ass for us every week,a team this city

can identify with...but its gonna take more time...more drafts...more talent

 

I really believe that if we give this guy 2 more years...that 30 years from now we'll all know who wore 23,12,43,and 40.

 

[choco]

part of the problem as i see it is a portion of the fanbase. if you really expected a turnaround of this team after 2 years then you need to reevaluate your expectations. how can anyone expect this team to be a finished product now? why such urgency to win after losing for more than a decade? the reason: impatience.....

 

there's a reason we constantly hear that we need to have patience.....cause we do. everyone was flippin shit after mangini's first year cause he only improved one game. so we get halfway thru a rebuild and what......everyone is going crazy and calling for heads before all the pieces can be put into place. we were a fluke in '07....sustained success means we need stability.

 

think grudens gonna walk in here and get us to the playoffs his first year? please....no coach is going to succeed in this environment until we...as fans....shut the xxxx up and quit acting like we know more than the people who do this for a living. seriously....just shut the xxxx up....all of you. if you want a winner so bad, just shut...the...xxxx...up and let the process run its course. demanding a winner these past ten years has really worked out...hasnt it? whats the common denominator over that time.....lerner, and the fans.

 

try acting like the great football fans you claim to be, rather than whining like a bunch of school girls.

 

 

[peterbell]

Name me one coach in the NFL that came back after being out of coaching for a 2 to 3 year period and were successful

This league is a coach killer and the grind of all grinds..Something tells me MH is beyond that.

 

Shanahan=disaster in DC

Gibbs=too brutal to talk about

Parcells=.500 coach

 

I'm sure there are other examples.

 

Most football fans don't understand how this NFL works