Change You Can Believe In

[Chicopee John]

In a war with only 1 potential measure of success

Spending Billions of dollars on a witch hunt

Same Secretary of Defense as George W. Bush

Same General as George W. Bush (after the new General had to be removed)

Same surge strategy as George W. Bush except it worked in Iraq but not in Afganistan

Same 'deadline' for removing troops as the one initiated by George W. Bush

 

 

Am I missing something? If so, what am I missing?

 

 

PS Merry Christmas to all and nothing but good fortune in 2011.

[Kosar_For_President]

In a war with only 1 potential measure of success

Spending Billions of dollars on a witch hunt

Same Secretary of Defense as George W. Bush

Same General as George W. Bush (after the new General had to be removed)

Same surge strategy as George W. Bush except it worked in Iraq but not in Afganistan

Same 'deadline' for removing troops as the one initiated by George W. Bush

 

 

Am I missing something? If so, what am I missing?

 

 

PS Merry Christmas to all and nothing but good fortune in 2011.

 

Same shit, different pile.

[Westside Steve]

In a war with only 1 potential measure of success

Spending Billions of dollars on a witch hunt

Same Secretary of Defense as George W. Bush

Same General as George W. Bush (after the new General had to be removed)

Same surge strategy as George W. Bush except it worked in Iraq but not in Afganistan

Same 'deadline' for removing troops as the one initiated by George W. Bush

 

 

Am I missing something? If so, what am I missing?

 

 

PS Merry Christmas to all and nothing but good fortune in 2011.

 

 

Come now, there's Black Eyed Peas in the CD player on AF1 instead of Garth Brooks.

 

 

But at least the left can't cry that we're in Afghanistan to "steal their oil."

WSS

[calfoxwc]

Okay, so which Obamao czar's have oil interests?

 

It's all a sick joke. The predicted pull outs was just a big lie to the

 

silly libs who will buy anything lib politicians says.

 

Change for the WORSE, BIGTIME.

[Kosar_For_President]

Come now, there's Black Eyed Peas in the CD player on AF1 instead of Garth Brooks.

 

That is the ONLY difference.

[calfoxwc]

Bush didn't NEED a teleprompter. Bush didn't put commies and marxists in the White House...

[osusev]

He figured out he has to govern from the center to get reelected.....

 

He has had major accomplishments as well as failure (nothing as epic as Bush)

 

You really only get to see the real motives in the back half of a presidents 2nd term because they have nothing to lose at that point.

 

 

[Mr. T]

Come now, there's Black Eyed Peas in the CD player on AF1 instead of Garth Brooks.

 

 

But at least the left can't cry that we're in Afghanistan to "steal their oil."

WSS

 

 

I prefer to listen to

 

And the hippies on the left should be pleased that we are able to keep the drugs coming in from Afghanistan.

[dogma]

I prefer to listen to

 

And the hippies on the left should be pleased that we are able to keep the drugs coming in from Afghanistan.

I hear Hank the 3rd is the real deal. I'm about to pick up a CD off amazon.

[Westside Steve]

He figured out he has to govern from the center to get reelected.....

 

Whhy?

That's not how he got elected the first time.

He ran to the hardest left he could get away with.

 

He ran against the wars that even the right were tired of.

He ran against the spending of the Bush admin that "caused" the economic downturn.

He ran against the public mandate for universal care.

 

He ran on more entitlements paid for by soaking the "rich."

 

He didn't renig on Gitmo to appear conservative, he just realized it was a stupid promise that bought no extra bvotes.

 

He's not moving to the center he's just failing to keep his unrealistic (if not actually actually dishonest) promises.

All with one of the most lopsided congresses in history.

 

WSS

[dogma]

Bush didn't NEED a teleprompter. Bush didn't put commies and marxists in the White House...

No, but he sure misunderestimated the need for one.

He didn't put commies in, but he put the oil industry and the coal industry in charge of energy.

And he put possibly the biggest numskull in Donald Rumsfeld in charge of the war.

Oh and he created the unfunded mandate that is still killing districts, NCLB.

Yea Bush sure wasn't in need of a teleprompter.

That's so important.

The right is so much smarter than anyone would think from looking at what they do.

[Westside Steve]

No, but he sure misunderestimated the need for one.

 

True enough.

Still is being a good reader the best qualification for president?

He didn't put commies in, but he put the oil industry and the coal industry in charge of energy.

Yeah boy. We shoewed then huh?

And he put possibly the biggest numskull in Donald Rumsfeld in charge of the war.

Huh? What did you disagree with Rumsfeld over and how is ot better bnow? Afghanistan looking like a win win yet?

Oh and he created the unfunded mandate that is still killing districts, NCLB.

Teddy's bill? Yep. Bad compromise there. Guess the Dems coulda dumped that over the last couple years eh?

Yea Bush sure wasn't in need of a teleprompter.

There are few better monologues than Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men.

Do I want him running the military? Hmmmm

That's so important.

The right is so much smarter than anyone would think from looking at what they do.

Well apparently from the successes of the last 4 years not a lot less smart.....

WSS

[dogma]

Rumsfeld and the whole crowd sent an unprepared national guard into a situation the leaders in the administration were clueless about. He had the great quote, "you send the army you got, not the army you want. What's better now? Not much except at least they have more materials than the troops who were originally sent in to be "welcomed as liberators".

 

Yea Teddy helped get the Bush Administration's Bill through the senate. Teddy was a murderer too. That doesn't make the right any better or less than the non right they bitch about all day long and people buy that crap.

 

Is the right less smart? Hardly. There all clever enough to keep their jobs and get that corporate dollar. Neither side has your or my true interests at heart. They're all working for someone else.

[Westside Steve]

Rumsfeld and the whole crowd sent an unprepared national guard into a situation the leaders in the administration were clueless about. He had the great quote, "you send the army you got, not the army you want. What's better now? Not much except at least they have more materials than the troops who were originally sent in to be "welcomed as liberators".

 

Yea Teddy helped get the Bush Administration's Bill through the senate. Teddy was a murderer too. That doesn't make the right any better or less than the non right they bitch about all day long and people buy that crap.

 

Is the right less smart? Hardly. There all clever enough to keep their jobs and get that corporate dollar. Neither side has your or my true interests at heart. They're all working for someone else.

 

 

First one of ther disagreements that led to Rummy's exit was his idea that the war should have been short and sweet like Kuwait.

He didn't like having to try to keep the "more bopots on the ground" gang happy OR the nation builders.

 

And we have never ever gone to any war as prepared as we'd like to be.

 

And I repeat despite the drawbacks we're better with no Saddam no Iraqi nuclear program and no Iraqi oill sold for Euros.

 

(and yes I realize that's much like Obama telling us "well it'd be a lot worse if we didn't la la la.")

WSS

[dogma]

First one of ther disagreements that led to Rummy's exit was his idea that the war should have been short and sweet like Kuwait.

He didn't like having to try to keep the "more bopots on the ground" gang happy OR the nation builders.

 

And we have never ever gone to any war as prepared as we'd like to be.

 

And I repeat despite the drawbacks we're better with no Saddam no Iraqi nuclear program and no Iraqi oill sold for Euros.

 

(and yes I realize that's much like Obama telling us "well it'd be a lot worse if we didn't la la la.")

WSS

Imagine how in debt we'd be if we unilaterally took out every government we'd be better off without.

 

[Westside Steve]

Imagine how in debt we'd be if we unilaterally took out every government we'd be better off without.

 

No idea.

Greece is about to collapse (among others) and they have no military to speak of.

 

Are you guessing tht isolationism is the key to prosperity in this day and age?

 

 

" Neither side has your or my true interests at heart. They're all working for someone else. "

 

So what's new?

Do you have my best interest at heart?

 

WSS

[dogma]

No idea.

Greece is about to collapse (among others) and they have no military to speak of.

 

Are you guessing tht isolationism is the key to prosperity in this day and age?

 

 

" Neither side has your or my true interests at heart. They're all working for someone else. "

 

So what's new?

Do you have my best interest at heart?

 

WSS

I have no idea why you'd assume that I'm an isolationist. That's kind of a lame argument against the stupidity that was the invasion of Iraq. To unilaterally assume the debt of destroying and trying to rebuild a nation is a really bad business decision. I think Colin Powell told them that.

 

Am I your political representative that you're concerned about whether or not I have your interest in mind?

[Westside Steve]

I have no idea why you'd assume that I'm an isolationist. That's kind of a lame argument against the stupidity that was the invasion of Iraq. To unilaterally assume the debt of destroying and trying to rebuild a nation is a really bad business decision. I think Colin Powell told them that.

 

Am I your political representative that you're concerned about whether or not I have your interest in mind?

 

Nope.

I just assumed since you were upset about the issue you thought there was a faction out there that had my (or your) best interest at heart.

If so I wonder who that might be and whether you support them.

 

And as to the isolation bit, you mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong) that we can't afford to take out every foreign government we don't like.

 

So which ones, if not Iraq, can we afoord to take out and to what benefit?

If the answer is "none" then it sounds isolationist.

WSS

[dogma]

Nope.

I just assumed since you were upset about the issue you thought there was a faction out there that had my (or your) best interest at heart.

If so I wonder who that might be and whether you support them.

 

And as to the isolation bit, you mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong) that we can't afford to take out every foreign government we don't like.

 

So which ones, if not Iraq, can we afoord to take out and to what benefit?

If the answer is "none" then it sounds isolationist.

WSS

It seems you're attempting to lead me down a road we weren't on.

I started with a comment about Bush being stupid and now you want me to prove how stupid I am. Let me help. Real stupid, but no so stupid to not realize that the Iraq war was and still is a fiasco.

[calfoxwc]

The Iraq war WAS NECESSARY.

 

My liberal friend, who worked in Intel over there, said so. He said the reasons why are classified,

 

and we won't be privy to knowing why.

 

No, I couldn't tease him into telling me in person, either.

 

Unlike a lot of libs, with them saying we should only have been in Afghanistan ...

 

I say Afghanistan, still being there, is stupid.

[dogma]

The Iraq war WAS NECESSARY.

 

My liberal friend, who worked in Intel over there, said so. He said the reasons why are classified,

 

and we won't be privy to knowing why.

 

No, I couldn't tease him into telling me in person, either.

 

Unlike a lot of libs, with them saying we should only have been in Afghanistan ...

 

I say Afghanistan, still being there, is stupid.

My conservative friend told me it was all BS to get oil.

Unlike a lot of "everybody" who thought we had reason to go into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, who's family was friends with who?

I swear conservatives will climb out on any skinny branch to say something evil about someone not in their party, but they haven't done the slightest bit of that crap with "that fact" or others.

Conservatives are so bent on getting and maintaining power that they don't stop with the BS even when they win elections.

[Westside Steve]

It seems you're attempting to lead me down a road we weren't on.

I started with a comment about Bush being stupid and now you want me to prove how stupid I am. Let me help. Real stupid, but no so stupid to not realize that the Iraq war was and still is a fiasco.

 

trying to get a take on your position.

As a progressive who claims to be to the left of Obama I wonder if you're an anti war guy.

If not I'm just wondering which ones have been cool.

WSS

[dogma]

trying to get a take on your position.

As a progressive who claims to be to the left of Obama I wonder if you're an anti war guy.

If not I'm just wondering which ones have been cool.

WSS

 

I just read that only 31% of the people admit to being democrat and 29% admit to being republican. I've voted for Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, John Anderson, Bill Clinton, and Ralph Nader.

 

Locally, I've voted both parties, but have yet to see an Independent on that level who appears capable of accomplishing anything in Washington or Columbus.

 

I'm not your "progressive" or your "liberal" or any other notch you want to dismiss me to.

 

I tend to not vote republican on a national level, due to their beliefs about what constitutes an American. I don't think they're concerned about anybody else's rights but their right to make a profit. That's very generalistic or stereotypical, but I'm not perfect.

 

I've stated before I'm very ANTI-conservative pundits. I believe Ronald Reagan and GWB were the 2 worst president in my time. I understand Richard Nixon broke the law and he was stuck in a tough unwinable war that he wanted to win. I blame Kissinger for that. Other than that his time as president seemed to be a very optimistic period. Except for that damn war.

 

Carter was an idealist who got stuck in a hostage crisis and an energy crisis that his idealism couldn't provide answers for.

 

Reagan started the polarization of this nation with his attacks and insults to any one who disagreed with his policy. He also made it popular to blame the "Welfare Queen" for this nation's economic woes. He made democrats (liberals) and equated them with communists, moving the Cold War to our citizens.

 

Every election since then has been a practice in hatred.

 

I'm pro-labor in the sense that workers do the work and need to be protected and compensated. I believe there are unions who do well and unions who are corrupt. There are companies and corporations who do well and some that are corrupt. I don't own or run a corporation, so that kind of guides where my interests lie. I'm not anti-business because that would be anti-worker. I have concerns when I see that workers' wages have risen relatively very little since the 80's, but owners' and CEOs' salaries and profits have increased over 400%, plus many of their employees' jobs have left our shores.

 

I believe the propagandists are for keeping the status quo and the status quo is much like a Cola War. Pepsi or Coke? Who cares. (I prefer Coka-Cola)

 

Even I wouldn't care if I believed that serious issues were being dealt with by serious and intelligent people(both sides) working towards compromise, but it seems pundits (both sides) want "no compromise". I believe this will hurt us all in the end and I have grand kids now that I care about.

 

I have a job, mortgage, family, values and beliefs that I hold dear. I have never served in the military, but many in my family have. I trust and honor the military and the police. I trust many politicians(both sides) to a certain extent and believe that some of the most effective ones have been involved in some sort of corruption to accomplish their goals.

 

I believe the Tea Party is as idealistic as Jimmy Carter ever was and their mettle will be tested.

 

Am I left, center, or right?

 

We have been identified as a center/right nation and I've been a citizen here all of my life.

 

Does that help?

[Westside Steve]

Some.

Hey over the last 40 odd years I've been all over the map too.

And I don't identify wholeheartedly with either party or any third party.

 

Seems you'd be on the liberal side just from the list of people who piss you off. And sure the labels aren't very tight but you've been pretty free with the left and right labels.

No big deal.

 

Ya must be older'n I thought if you voted for Nixon.

WSS

[dogma]

Some.

Hey over the last 40 odd years I've been all over the map too.

And I don't identify wholeheartedly with either party or any third party.

 

Seems you'd be on the liberal side just from the list of people who piss you off. And sure the labels aren't very tight but you've been pretty free with the left and right labels.

No big deal.

 

Ya must be older'n I thought if you voted for Nixon.

WSS

I disagree with conservatives and yea, that's a label. It's a label I freely use because they have identified themselves as 'conservatives" and the only true Americans and everyone else are "liberals".

The fact is, to disagree with a conservative does not mean I or anybody else who disagrees with them is a liberal. I don't even know what a liberal is except that conservatives use the term to conveniently identify anybody who disagree with them.

 

Believe me I read all the clever BS that they send around to each other about what a liberal is, but that's all part of the propaganda agenda.

 

Don't you think it's more accurate that conservatives are extremists and the rest of us are somewhere around the center?

 

 

[Westside Steve]

I disagree with conservatives and yea, that's a label. It's a label I freely use because they have identified themselves as 'conservatives" and the only true Americans and everyone else are "liberals".

The fact is, to disagree with a conservative does not mean I or anybody else who disagrees with them is a liberal. I don't even know what a liberal is except that conservatives use the term to conveniently identify anybody who disagree with them.

 

Believe me I read all the clever BS that they send around to each other about what a liberal is, but that's all part of the propaganda agenda.

 

Don't you think it's more accurate that conservatives are extremists and the rest of us are somewhere around the center?

 

 

Not really.

 

Give me a few examples of the extremism of mainstream conservatives.

We have no real Hitlers or Marxs in the senate.

WSS

[dogma]

Not really.

 

Give me a few examples of the extremism of mainstream conservatives.

We have no real Hitlers or Marxs in the senate.

WSS

Why are you even bringing up names that Beck, Limbaugh and all the other crapheads throw out as if they're meaningful. Conservatives have identified themselves as being right of the current republican party. You have identified everyone else as non-American, liberal, baby killing, terrorist loving, sodomizing, commie, socialist, tree huggers, who want you to marry Bob next door.

You guys sound like paranoid lunatics. You've painted yourselves into a conservative corner. Everyone is the enemy. Everyone else is Hitler or Marxist.

 

You have such little regard for your fellow citizens that you actually believe anybody would allow these things to happen and only you and your conservative buddies have the credentials to run this country because everyone else is so naive they'll let Chairman Mao come back to life and live in the White House.

 

Do you guys ever listen to yourselves?

 

You hate non conservatives when you lose elections, you hate non conservatives when you win elections. It's kind of all about the hate.

[Westside Steve]

Why are you even bringing up names that Beck, Limbaugh and all the other crapheads throw out as if they're meaningful. Conservatives have identified themselves as being right of the current republican party. You have identified everyone else as non-American, liberal, baby killing, terrorist loving, sodomizing, commie, socialist, tree huggers, who want you to marry Bob next door.

You guys sound like paranoid lunatics. You've painted yourselves into a conservative corner. Everyone is the enemy. Everyone else is Hitler or Marxist.

 

You have such little regard for your fellow citizens that you actually believe anybody would allow these things to happen and only you and your conservative buddies have the credentials to run this country because everyone else is so naive they'll let Chairman Mao come back to life and live in the White House.

 

Do you guys ever listen to yourselves?

 

You hate non conservatives when you lose elections, you hate non conservatives when you win elections. It's kind of all about the hate.

 

 

So no examples?

Whew!!!!!

Just a looney over the top rant attacking me??

Sp what is I've personally said to sent you over the edge?

Or (and take a breath and think hard) are you mad at somebody else?

WSS

[dogma]

So no examples?

Whew!!!!!

Just a looney over the top rant attacking me??

Sp what is I've personally said to sent you over the edge?

Or (and take a breath and think hard) are you mad at somebody else?

WSS

Oh I'm sorry. I thought you were actually accusing me of supporting Hitler and Marxism.

But of course you had no intention of doing that when you included those names in your post to me. So I apologize. My bad.

 

My problem was thinking anybody who wanted to bring in the names Hitler or Marx was a lunatic who was so deeply ingrained in the dogma of the political correctness of the extreme right that maybe they needed to hear the truth instead of the same old garbage they reinforce themselves with on a continual basis.

 

OK, you have no Hitlers or Marxes. YAY! My bad.

[Westside Steve]

Oh I'm sorry. I thought you were actually accusing me of supporting Hitler and Marxism.

 

Not at all Dog.

Just saying that for all the acusations of extremeism from both sides there really aren't any here in US govt.

We're pretty MOR on either side.

 

But of course you had no intention of doing that when you included those names in your post to me. So I apologize. My bad.

 

No big deal sir.

 

My problem was thinking anybody who wanted to bring in the names Hitler or Marx was a lunatic who was so deeply ingrained in the dogma of the political correctness of the extreme right that maybe they needed to hear the truth instead of the same old garbage they reinforce themselves with on a continual basis.

 

OK, you have no Hitlers or Marxes. YAY! My bad.

 

 

Cool.

And I'd probably been more accurate to day Hitler and Stalin.

{and no we don't have an American Stalin either )

Though I don't agree with him and don't think communism works I don't think Marx was a bad guy.

But that's another topic.

WSS