Worse than Wimbley

[JC]

Cushings, not Rey M. Rey is all hit flash and little substance from what I have seen (and have heard from big USC fans).

 

And if someone was gonna take one of OSU's LBs, I'd sooner go Marcus Freeman before Laurenitis.

 

Freeman over Laurenitis? Seriously? Freeman is fast but has trouble shedding blockers. He's a day two pick come April.

[Guest Aloysius]

Ha. Thanks, guys.

 

I'm just another irrational Browns fan who somehow thinks that my "scouting" will somehow result in our FO drafting better players. I probably should be e-mailing Phil some suggestions...then again, that probably wouldn't work out so well

 

Freeman over Laurenitis? Seriously? Freeman is fast but has trouble shedding blockers. He's a day two pick come April.

Freeman's speed should give a boost to his draft stock, but he's probably at best a mid-Round 2 guy. And you're right about him having trouble shedding blocks - he's exclusively a 4-3 weakside linebacker.

 

Laurinaitis, on the other hand, probably could play any of the 4-3 linebacker spots (excepts MLB in a Tampa 2), but he doesn't project well to a 3-4.

 

So if we're sticking with the 3-4 as our base D, I don't think we'll be drafting either of those guys.

[DTBH]

Freeman's speed should give a boost to his draft stock, but he's probably at best a mid-Round 2 guy. And you're right about him having trouble shedding blocks - he's exclusively a 4-3 weakside linebacker.

 

Laurinaitis, on the other hand, probably could play any of the 4-3 linebacker spots (excepts MLB in a Tampa 2), but he doesn't project well to a 3-4.

 

Care to expand on any of that with reasoning?

[Guest Aloysius]

Which part?

 

I don't watch as much OSU football as some of you guys, but the sense I've gotten from watching games & reading reports is that Freeman just isn't the football player Laurinaitis is, especially when it comes to instincts. However, his speed will impress NFL GM's, which should give a boost to his stock.

 

On the other hand, Laurinaitis is an instinctive, talented football player, but he too has problems shedding blocks. That probably eliminates him from 3-4 consideration, and there's some doubt as to whether he's athletic enough to play MLB in a Tampa 2 (the LB with the biggest coverage responsibilities).

 

Actually, the anonymous scout I quoted about a week ago didn't think he wouldn't be good at any linebacker spot in a Tampa 2 D.

 

But I think Laurinaitis will be a decent pro. Though the comparison's not perfect, I could see him being like Chad Greenway in Minnesota - a mid/late Round 1 guy who eventually becomes the leader of his defense.

[Guest Aloysius]

I originally posted the stuff here and here, but it's good to look at what two NFL scouts said about Laurinaitis side-by-side:

 

Scout #1

 

"Laurinaitis scares me a little. There are times where he looks like he’s thinking too much and he runs stiff. In the right defense he’s got a chance to be real good, but he’s no Tampa 2 guy. I’ll tell you one thing I love about him: James Laurinaitis thrives when challenged. You can’t coach that, you can’t teach that, and it’s that quality that separates the great from the good. Ray Lewis has it, Pat Willis has that. And Laurinaitis has it."

Scout #2

 

"He's similar to A.J. Hawk and I was a big fan of A.J. Hawk. I probably liked Hawk a little more than I like Laurinaitis. In a 3-4, when that guard is uncovered and he has to deal with an NFL guard coming down on him, he's not getting off that block and he isn't making a lot of plays. In a 4-3 that's closer to what they play in Columbus, he should be the player he has been in college, which is a really instinctive guy."

[DTBH]

I was just curious as to why you say Freeman is only a 4-3 weakside linebacker and why Laurenitis could play any position in the 4-3 but none in the 3-4. Just trying to understand the differences in resposibilities/necessities between each linebacker position in each type of defense.

 

You pretty much answered it.

[Guest Aloysius]

Yeah, I didn't explain any of that very clearly.

 

As far as the 4-3 goes, I think the main difference is that Laurinaitis is more physical, which translates into him being able to play inside linebacker (for a non-Tampa 2 team).

 

My understanding is that 4-3 OLB's are interchangeable for some teams, but others like their strong side linebackers to be a bit more physical, particularly because they have to deal with blocking TE's & big mauling RT's in the run game.

 

By contrast, the 4-3 weakside guy more often covers RB's coming out of the backfield, so having a little more athleticism can help.

 

Here's what a scout said about Freeman:

 

"He's a 4-3 weakside linebacker who does have a lot of value. He's a four-down player, like Laurinaitis - they can play on third down and cover and then play on the punt team or punt return team. He's played banged up so we probably haven't seen the best of him, but I have the tape from a year ago and NFL teams do their homework. I think he'll work out well, so for a 4-3 team he's a second or third (round) type guy."

[Vegasdogg]

Maybe injuries to other players, opposing teams scheming for him, and bad coaching have played a role in Wimbley's decreased production.

IMO, if losing some starters causes you to disappear for 6-7 games at a time, you're not very good to begin with. Scheming to stop him is one thing, but when he does not make a play or two a game, he is a bust as a 1st rounder. The guy simply cannot rush the passer for shit. I should be able to line that kid up anywhere and he should produce for us. Think Shaun Rogers needs other starters to make him play well?

 

Wimbley is no better than a 3rd or 4th rounder to me.

[Mr. T]

Wimbley has 3 sacks the team inwhole has 15. Our team defense dosn't blitz very often and the results are evitable, we give up way to much ground inthe air let alone on the ground.

 

Opposing quarterbacks get approximatley 8 seconds to stand flat footed in the pocket and pick our defense apart. Wimbleys lack of production in the sack department cannot be blamed on diminshing skills, it is the fault of our Defensive coordinater and head coach.

 

This bend but do not break scheme that they are playing is killing us.

 

How many 3 and outs has this years defense executed? very few.

 

Sunday Houston was called for holding on first down, I'm thinking great maybe we can get them to punt. Hell No! 2 plays later they pick up a first down.

 

I shouldn't of gotten my hopes up.

 

Our defense was dropping back and playing 4 to 5 yards off of every receiver and we did not one time blitz!!!! to put pressure on the QB. It was all read and re-act BullCrap!

 

When was the last time you saw one of our DB's Drill a receiver so hard that it dislodged the ball when they were coming down with it? no all we see is terrry cousins trying to catch up and tackle ther ankles.

 

Why is it that whenever Cousins is in the game opposing QB's look to see who he is covering and that is there primary receiver?

[DieselPusher]

Laurinaitis, on the other hand, probably could play any of the 4-3 linebacker spots (excepts MLB in a Tampa 2), but he doesn't project well to a 3-4.

 

 

What is the responsibility of a MLB in a Tampa 2?? why would a MLB in a 4-3 not cut it at a MLB in a Tampa 2.

 

thanks

 

 

 

[Guest Aloysius]

What is the responsibility of a MLB in a Tampa 2?? why would a MLB in a 4-3 not cut it at a MLB in a Tampa 2.

As I understand it, the key difference is that an MLB in a Tampa 2 is responsible for dropping as deep as 30 yards down field in coverage.

 

Each safety in a Tampa 2 D is responsible for half the field, providing a second layer of coverage over the CB's, who are expected to jam & disrupt the receiver's routes.

 

That prevents the receivers from making big plays, but it also leaves the center of the field wide open for a TE to run between the safeties. As a result, the Tampa 2 requires the MLB drop deep into pass coverage, eliminating that hole in the defense.

 

So the MLB in a Tampa 2 has to be extremely athletic - like Brian Urlacher, who played safety in college. Generally speaking, scouts determine whether a guy can play the position based on their athletic ability, not their downhill tackling abilities.

As Brian Urlacher puts it, "My primary purpose in [the Tampa 2] is to run back to the huddle and congratulate somebody for making a play while I was running down the field with the tight end."

 

Because Laurinaitis has a rep for "playing stiff" and sometimes overthinking, he's probably not a good fit for a position that requires him to drop back deep almost immediately. While he may be athletic enough for one of the outside spots (which drop into 8-12 yard middle zones), Little Animal probably isn't well-suited to playing the 30 yard deep zone that a Tampa 2 MLB must play.

[Guest Aloysius]

SI ran a great article on the history of the Tampa 2 before the Bears-Colts Super Bowl.

 

Here's an interesting snippet:

 

The giant leap forward was initiated by Bud Carson, defensive coordinator for Pittsburgh's Steel Curtain defenses of the 1970s. Carson came to the Steelers from Georgia Tech in '72 and installed the Cover Two with wrinkles that would change NFL history. In addition to splitting the Steelers' safeties and rolling up the cornerbacks, Carson had his middle linebacker drop deep into the void between the safeties instead of sitting close to the line of scrimmage. This move would prove prescient two years later with the arrival of Jack Lambert, the 6'4", 220-pound future Hall of Famer whose freakish athletic skills were matched by his ferocity. "Bud came in one day, drew it up on a chalkboard, we started playing it. We just loved it from the first day," says Mike Wagner, the strong safety on those Pittsburgh teams.

 

The Steelers won Super Bowls after the 1974 and '75 seasons. In '76 they gave up just 28 points in the final nine games of the regular season and pitched five shutouts but lost to Oakland in the AFC Championship Game. Before the '77 season Pittsburgh signed University of Minnesota quarterback Tony Dungy as a free agent and converted him first into a wide receiver and then a safety. He played two years for the Steelers, including '78, when they won their third championship. He also paid attention. "Everything we do now you can find in my Pittsburgh Steelers playbook," Dungy says. "I did keep it all those years."

[DieselPusher]

thanks for the info

[Guest Aloysius]

No problem.

[Guest Aloysius]

PFW has an interesting report about a guy a lot of us liked in the '06 draft, Manny Lawson:

 

Lawson becoming more involved in defense

 

By Dan Arkush

Nov. 26, 2008

 

In dire need of more difference makers on defense, the 49ers are making a conscious effort to give former first-round OLB Manny Lawson more playing time. “They’re definitely trying to get him on the field more, not only in the base 3-4, but also in a 3-3-5, which allows him to rush the passer more from a two-point stance,” a longtime team insider told PFW. “He can still disappear at times, but he’s good for at least one impact play per game, which forces teams to account for him.” It has been a long road back for Lawson, who team insiders tell us is just now getting back to full strength from the knee surgery that forced him to sit out the final 14 games last season. “We wanted to make sure that we were not rushing him back into something where he gets re-injured,” head coach Mike Singletary said of Lawson. “He’s really been coming on, and you can see the confidence. He’s not having to think. … It’s just happening.”

[Guest Aloysius]

PFW also has a report from an anonymous NFL scout that pretty much confirms what Russ & others have been saying about Wimbley:

 

“(Browns OLB Kamerion) Wimbley is too elongated. He does not come to balance in space. He’s a one-trick pony, and the league has figured him out. Just look at his sack production. It’s gone straight downhill every year he’s been in the league. He was able to surprise teams with his quickness when he got into the league, but you need more than an outside speed rush to rush the passer in the NFL.”

[Guest Aloysius]

Final season stats:

• Kamerion Wimbley: 66 tackles, 4 sacks

• Manny Lawson: 45 tackles, 3 sacks

• Mark Anderson: 18 tackles, 1 sack

Boy, have these guys regressed.

 

Here are a few guys who would have been better 3-4 OLB prospects to take in the 2006 draft:

• Mathias Kiwanuka: 51 tackles, 8 sacks

• Parys Haralson: 39 tackles, 8 sacks

[YtownBrownsBacker]

I agree. But just like we don't have an LB core suitable for the 3-4, we don't have the set of DE's we'd need to run a 4-3.

 

Wimbley and (possibly) Hall are exclusively 3-4 players, so I think "path dependency" will lead us to stick with the 3-4, even if the coaching staff changes this offseason.

 

This is where I have to disagree with you. Wimbley is strickly a 4-3 DE speed rusher. He isn't a 3-4 OLB and he isn't a power rusher. If some of you tape the games, watch how many times he actually rushers the passer anymore. How do you sack a QB if you are dropping into coverage. I believe if Wimbley is put into a 4-3 one gap system that he is suited for, he will be a very good DE.