Underwhelmed

[Hoss]

So does that mean if we add one more person to the equation we become 10-6? People can arguee all they want but we had tons of injuries and mistakes made by both the players and coaches so this falls on everyone, including Holmgren and the GM for not getting us better back ups in the offseason. We can play the what if game all day but it wont change anything.

Yes, and because of multiple mistakes by all these people, you can make a case for getting rid of the head coach.

 

And Holmgren and Heckert can't flip the entire roster over that Mangini built, and then blame him for the losses by stripping him of "his guys." Make no mistake about it, Mangini had more to do with the lack of depth on this team than anyone. He could have brought in more depth, but his "process" and his love of ST's guys gutted the opportunity's for depth on this team.

 

The first things Holmgren said was he and Heckert are here to give the HC what he needs. You think Mangini told them he has no depth, "please get rid of all these mediocre guys who buy into my system?"

 

Yeah that happened.

[Hoss]

Who wanted Hillis? Hmmm?

And Heckert made it happen. Look who took out Hillis in the first game vs TB. We didn't do much without him did we? So instead of sticking with the guy and giving him some confidence, you bench him in the first game. Mangini mishandled a lot of players on game day (or making them inactive.)

 

But sure, I give props to Eric for getting Heckert to grab him. +1 to Mangini.

[cddbrowns]

And Heckert made it happen. Look who took out Hillis in the first game vs TB. We didn't do much without him did we? So instead of sticking with the guy and giving him some confidence, you bench him in the first game. Mangini mishandled a lot of players on game day (or making them inactive.)

 

But sure, I give props to Eric for getting Heckert to grab him. +1 to Mangini.

 

Holy bloody hell, you spin EVERYTHING into a negative with Mangini dont you? do something personally against you or something? LOL! How about how much BETTER this team has been with penalties, points allowed, started Colt after healthy didnt he? How many backup QBs can come in and win in the NFL by the way?

[Hoss]

Holy bloody hell, you spin EVERYTHING into a negative with Mangini dont you?

Mangini just got axed by his 2nd organization in his 2nd season - again. There is a lot of negatives.

 

Sure, none of this is his fault.

[cddbrowns]

Mangini just got axed by his 2nd organization in his 2nd season - again. There is a lot of negatives.

 

Sure, none of this is his fault.

 

First, he was after his 3rd season with the Jets.....second, fired means everything was his fault? HA! No wonder Browns fans are confused.......

 

I love the Browns, but the fans CAN BE the dumbest in the NFL sometimes. Not all, but some of you.

[longhorn]

This is all about Holmgren instituting his philosophy and style of play on the team, assisted by people he knows and trusts. I think he gave Mangini and his assistants a chance, but felt like they were not going to get there fast enough (or ever). If any of us was hired to do a job and we gave the people who were on board before we came a chance and, after a year or so, felt (1) we could bring in our own team and (2) our own team had a better shot at getting us to the end goal, we'd all do the same. This isn't E-Harmony, it's the NFL and you either win or you go bye-bye. New boss, new team of coaches.

 

It's gonna happen, rather than fret and worry and gripe, why not let things unfold and support the folks that get put in place. You can always grumble about the past, but that doesn't do a thing for the future. Embrace the change and hope for the best. Lord knows if these new guys fail we are all great at complaining and saying "I told you so".

[cddbrowns]

This is all about Holmgren instituting his philosophy and style of play on the team, assisted by people he knows and trusts. I think he gave Mangini and his assistants a chance, but felt like they were not going to get there fast enough (or ever). If any of us was hired to do a job and we gave the people who were on board before we came a chance and, after a year or so, felt (1) we could bring in our own team and (2) our own team had a better shot at getting us to the end goal, we'd all do the same. This isn't E-Harmony, it's the NFL and you either win or you go bye-bye. New boss, new team of coaches.

 

It's gonna happen, rather than fret and worry and gripe, why not let things unfold and support the folks that get put in place. You can always grumble about the past, but that doesn't do a thing for the future. Embrace the change and hope for the best. Lord knows if these new guys fail we are all great at complaining and saying "I told you so".

 

Bottom line, FIRE MANGINI! BRING IN A PROVEN HEAD COACH LIKE GRUDEN! OH, I MEAN SHURMUR! HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!

[longhorn]

...and if Shurmur gets us to the playoffs, Holmgren was right.....I wouldn't care if Carrot Top came in to coach if he got us to have the best record in the division.

[cddbrowns]

...and if Shurmur gets us to the playoffs, Holmgren was right.....I wouldn't care if Carrot Top came in to coach if he got us to have the best record in the division.

 

Odds that Shurmur getting us to the playoffs next year are WAY less than the odds that Mangini would have. This was ego, plain and simple.

[longhorn]

For folks in Mangini's corner, if our record is a lot better next year it will be because we had a much easier schedule. We'll never be able to get all of us to agree on much other than the Browns are the greatest NFL team ever, Pittsburgh fans suck donkey dangles, and WRREBEL really did sleep with Gruden.

[shepwrite]

For folks in Mangini's corner, if our record is a lot better next year it will be because we had a much easier schedule. We'll never be able to get all of us to agree on much other than the Browns are the greatest NFL team ever, Pittsburgh fans suck donkey dangles, and WRREBEL really did sleep with Gruden.

 

Wow. Talk about stacking the deck. If we lose a lot is it Mangini's fault? Or is this all Bill Clinton's fault, too?

[cddbrowns]

Wow. Talk about stacking the deck. If we lose a lot is it Mangini's fault? Or is this all Bill Clinton's fault, too?

 

Did you know Bush caused the brown spot in my back yard? Wasnt the dog, it was Bush pissing by the tree........

[shepwrite]

Thank you, Mrs. Holmgren!

 

That... was funny. Said like Chelsea Handler. Which is who I really am.

[cddbrowns]

For folks in Mangini's corner, if our record is a lot better next year it will be because we had a much easier schedule. We'll never be able to get all of us to agree on much other than the Browns are the greatest NFL team ever, Pittsburgh fans suck donkey dangles, and WRREBEL really did sleep with Gruden.

 

Not true at all, at least where I am concerned. If the Browns DO in fact win more, ALONG WITH THE MANY OTHER FACTORS THAT SHOULD GO INTO IT, then I will concede and say "I was wrong and good for Holmgren and Shurmur" If we beat crappy azz teams, but get destroyed by any good team, our stats and others go down, other factors, I will say what I am saying now.

[shepwrite]

Take the other side of the pendulum, without the 2 fumbles and one pick 6, we're 8 and 8.

 

Ifs and buts. The one thing I know, record or not, we improved each season with Mangini. Where we improved the most was in the draft tho with Heckert and co. We keep getting some good drafts and we'll be really competitive soon.

 

No, the only thing we know about Mangini is that he was 10-22. That's the bottom line. And we closed weak and disinterested.

[longhorn]

Wow. Talk about stacking the deck. If we lose a lot is it Mangini's fault? Or is this all Bill Clinton's fault, too?

 

 

It's helped Obama.

[shepwrite]

This is all about Holmgren instituting his philosophy and style of play on the team, assisted by people he knows and trusts. I think he gave Mangini and his assistants a chance, but felt like they were not going to get there fast enough (or ever). If any of us was hired to do a job and we gave the people who were on board before we came a chance and, after a year or so, felt (1) we could bring in our own team and (2) our own team had a better shot at getting us to the end goal, we'd all do the same. This isn't E-Harmony, it's the NFL and you either win or you go bye-bye. New boss, new team of coaches.

 

It's gonna happen, rather than fret and worry and gripe, why not let things unfold and support the folks that get put in place. You can always grumble about the past, but that doesn't do a thing for the future. Embrace the change and hope for the best. Lord knows if these new guys fail we are all great at complaining and saying "I told you so".

 

Bam. I was a hell of a lot more excited by Holmgren than Mangini... but the truth is I just want the Browns to win. I'll be bummed/excited by Holmgren's true reign (which begins next season) based on results.

[shepwrite]

Odds that Shurmur getting us to the playoffs next year are WAY less than the odds that Mangini would have. This was ego, plain and simple.

 

Whoa. That's SERIOUSLY out on a limb, man. Mangini is smarter than Holmgren now? Holy crap, he's becoming the stuff of myth of back to back 5-11 seasons?

 

Wow.

[cddbrowns]

Whoa. That's SERIOUSLY out on a limb, man. Mangini is smarter than Holmgren now? Holy crap, he's becoming the stuff of myth of back to back 5-11 seasons?

 

Wow.

 

Same thing as saying Mangini would never take the team any further doncha think? I can make outlandish claims too.....and again, not taking considerations into the "back to back 5-11 seasons" is beyond shallow. Just sayin.....

[kshutchins]

Whoa. That's SERIOUSLY out on a limb, man. Mangini is smarter than Holmgren now?

 

Unless Holmgren is the next coach, that's not the question. The question: Is Mangini smarter than the guy Holmgren brings in next?

 

I think Mangini did the hard part. Changing the culture in an organization like this is no easy feat. Hacking your way through the QB problems of the last couple of years was no simple task. Whoever comes in next will have an easier time of it.

[hammertime]

Same thing as saying Mangini would never take the team any further doncha think? I can make outlandish claims too.....and again, not taking considerations into the "back to back 5-11 seasons" is beyond shallow. Just sayin.....

 

now you are glossing over the fact that we went 5-11 back to back.

 

whether its now 'considerations' or 'reasons' its not that Mangini couldn't take them farther but whats next back to back 6-10 seasons.

 

hes gone because he didn't win, this team will continue to improve to a certain level provided their drafting continues to improve

 

if Mangini wins he stays.

 

At this point Mangini's still gonna get paid and said all the right things on his way out, tough business.

[longhorn]

Not true at all, at least where I am concerned. If the Browns DO in fact win more, ALONG WITH THE MANY OTHER FACTORS THAT SHOULD GO INTO IT, then I will concede and say "I was wrong and good for Holmgren and Shurmur" If we beat crappy azz teams, but get destroyed by any good team, our stats and others go down, other factors, I will say what I am saying now.

 

That's more than fair. I think we think agree more than disagree. Using the Mangini logic, the new group has ~2 years to make a big difference and the measure of success should be a consistent winning record year in and year out, understanding that even great teams have a bad year every now and then, but quickly return to their winning ways. That is all I want for the Browns.

 

The era of slow, methodical forward progress over a number of years really doesn't exist in the NFL any more given parody, economics and fan expecttions. Even if we invest time, money and effort in great players, we won't be able to keep all of them so the real "art" in all of this is to keep a good core, develop younger players and have a knack for filling in the gaps, SUCCESSFULLY, year after year.

 

 

[sisky fringo]

Unless Holmgren is the next coach, that's not the question. The question: Is Mangini smarter than the guy Holmgren brings in next?

 

I think Mangini did the hard part. Changing the culture in an organization like this is no easy feat. Hacking your way through the QB problems of the last couple of years was no simple task. Whoever comes in next will have an easier time of it.

it's exactly what he said he didn't want to be--"The Cleaner...like Harvey Keitel in Pulp Fiction". that's not verbatim but pretty close and essentially his words. and that's what he's been, twice.

 

i wanted...still want...Mangini to have another year. this is the wrong move after year 2, with a rookie QB, rash of injuries, top 5 hardest schedule in football, no wide receivers, the asst head coach getting all ballsy and inventive while Cribbs is half a man...coordinating the O with a suspect OC...

 

the Steelers went from shit to Lombardi in 3yrs, with a rookie at QB>>it can be done. 5-11 year 1 is actually ahead of sched. year 2 >> 8-8 is realistic and it's where i expected us. the Browns could have achieved more than 8 wins simply playing crisp and sound ball with the same cast and crew and i see that, so i made accomodations and gave them a pass this year. if in year 3 EM didn't have the team contending then i'd feel a lot better about parting ways...but you really need to give them 3 years. and that's with some continuity and stability. there is a case for saying he improved the team, and if he continued to do so could even deserve 4 years. i think he really had us close to getting over the hump this year and that he definitely deserved next year...especially after seeing Lazarus aka Marvin Lewis survive yet another atrocious season. his '09 Coach of the Year" was definitely the exception, clearly not the rule regarding him.

 

for some that seem to have never bought in to EM, back to back 5-11 is pretty cut and dry. for me, i was all in. embraced his philosophy, maybe best one yet. "S.A.T., core characteristics"...but now i won't get to cash in on a two year investment i made--we all made. i certainly don't need some Texas fan (no disrespect )to remind me to embrace the next regime, support my next team coach etc etc. i know all about that, i've lived it for decades. this time it was about continuity for me. the team was in damn near every game this season but the last one, with about 5 of them being decided in the last couple minutes. to change the culture and accomplish that, in our division? that's huge improvement. my big gripe w EM was clock management, and i'm not prepared to commit to yet another teardown/rebuild just because of his time/out usage---cuz it's completely fixable.

 

cut and dry, Eric Mangini's confidence in Mohammed Massoquoi and Brian Robiskie got him fired. or, in other words, Mo and Robo's suck got him canned...but really it was still Eric's belief in them that did it. talk about adversity, terrible receivers and a QB carousel. it's pretty ironic that had EM kept Winslow and Edwards, he might actually still be the Head Coach.

 

whatever. it goes down a little easier with every day that passes. here we go again.....

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

Yes, and because of multiple mistakes by all these people, you can make a case for getting rid of the head coach.

 

And Holmgren and Heckert can't flip the entire roster over that Mangini built, and then blame him for the losses by stripping him of "his guys." Make no mistake about it, Mangini had more to do with the lack of depth on this team than anyone. He could have brought in more depth, but his "process" and his love of ST's guys gutted the opportunity's for depth on this team.

 

The first things Holmgren said was he and Heckert are here to give the HC what he needs. You think Mangini told them he has no depth, "please get rid of all these mediocre guys who buy into my system?"

 

Yeah that happened.

 

The roster that Mangini built? In one year?

 

He didn't build a roster he built a culture. Ridding the team of guys that didnt want to work there asses off to bring a winner to Cleveland. Several players have

 

said this team is special and the closest they've ever been on. They play together, worked hard, and held each other accountable. In one year Mangini did what

 

no other coach has done, every Sunday I Believed we could win and believed the players would try their damnedest to make sure we did. Adding players and

 

getting them to be successful in that atmosphere is the easy part, he just wont get the chance to be apart of it unfortunately

[DieHardBrownsFan]

The roster that Mangini built? In one year?

 

He didn't build a roster he built a culture. Ridding the team of guys that didnt want to work there asses off to bring a winner to Cleveland. Several players have

 

said this team is special and the closest they've ever been on. They play together, worked hard, and held each other accountable. In one year Mangini did what

 

no other coach has done, every Sunday I Believed we could win and believed the players would try their damnedest to make sure we did. Adding players and

 

getting them to be successful in that atmosphere is the easy part, he just wont get the chance to be apart of it unfortunately

 

 

Exactly. Saying Mangini built his team in one year is asinine. Show's a total lack of football knowledge. Unfortunately it is too late for Mangini.

[sisky fringo]

Make no mistake about it, Mangini had more to do with the lack of depth on this team than anyone. He could have brought in more depth, but his "process" and his love of ST's guys gutted the opportunity's for depth on this team.

Brad Seeley has gone under the radar as the "Assistant Head Coach", but has owned that title since he joined the Browns. Mangini openly recognized the value of solid ST's players, but he also stressed to the young guys that they needed to define a role for themselves on ST as well, and continually encouraged them to do so.

 

when it was time to shave the roster down and multiple guys were on the bubble, and the team went in the direction of proven ST's guys, i think assigning some responsibility to the Assistant Head/Specials Coach is pretty deserving. don't know for sure how loud his voice was but in the least he offered trusted input and it was enough to break ties.

[bringbackbrownie2]

I just think its obvious that Holmgren had planned all along to get rid of Mangini and build his own way from scratch. Even though I was against the firing of Mangini, at this point I will trust Holmgren because we have seen evidence that he (and heckert) can draft well. I will not be biased towards the new coach and will give him a chance. But if we aren't any better than last year, I would already consider Holmgren a failure. Next year should not be a rebuilding year- we should be a decent team. I don't expect playoffs but we should compete in every game including division games. If we go 3-3 in the division, we should have a good year.

 

Now the NFL just has to get their sh** together and give us football in 2011 (and beyond).

[ballpeen]

I guess the positive is in the past, we have been overwhelmed with the head coaching hires, only to be disappointed in the end, so maybe being underwhelmed at the beginning is a good thing.