Odds of winning the 2011 season Super Bowl

[DieHardBrownsFan]

1. Mozilla Firefox

2. Tabs

3. Boredom throughout the work week

4. Smart phone/lap top

 

Entire lives he says. I have more important sh.it to do than to sit on here all day but when I'm bored it's usually tabbed. Sue me.

 

 

Because he's a no life boring tweeb.

[Zombo]

Ben Watson who couldn't find a team outside of the Browns to sign him.

 

That is just an insane premise. We have one of the best GM in all of football, Watson was the top all-around TE free agent, and Heckert went out and got him. Then ... Watson exceeded expectations making Heckert look like even more of a genius ... and you turn this into a negative??

 

Zombo

[Vagitron]

That is just an insane premise. We have one of the best GM in all of football, Watson was the top all-around TE free agent, and Heckert went out and got him. Then ... Watson exceeded expectations making Heckert look like even more of a genius ... and you turn this into a negative??

 

Zombo

 

Did I say it was a negative? Watson didn't garner a ton of interest was my point. He has exceeded expectations and good on the front office. We'll see if he continues with that level of production. His career stats suggest otherwise.

[Slurp and Burp]

Watson will not have big numbers this year because Colt McCoy is injury prone and cannot take a hit. He will get injured playing in the AC North. If you look at what he did in the BCS Game against Alabama you can see why. The guy wimped out of the biggest college game of his career after the medical staff indicated that there wasn't anything wrong with him.

[FearTheRoo]

Watson will not have big numbers this year because Colt McCoy is injury prone and cannot take a hit. He will get injured playing in the AC North. If you look at what he did in the BCS Game against Alabama you can see why. The guy wimped out of the biggest college game of his career after the medical staff indicated that there wasn't anything wrong with him.

 

X-Rays were negative, but the medical staff determined he had a sprained throwing arm. Colt said he couldn't even feel the arm, but was willing to play until the coaches and medical staff told him not to jeopardize his future. Then he spent the off-season rehabbing his arm (which was documented on the NFL Network a few days ago).

 

Try doing some research before you speak...

[SJ_Browns]

I think the premise was who is the better tight end right now ... or, more to the fact, that you fell Ben Watson is currently the worst starting TE in the AFC North. It doesn't concern his New England years any more than his concerns his college years ... you are saying he is currently the worst tight end in the division.

 

However, the fine folks at Football Outsiders has done the homework for us ... and let's see what they say about CURRENT (2010 Season ... yes that is as current as you get) Tight ends:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/te

 

RECEIVING: Minimum 25 passes, 45 players ranked

Player Team DYAR Rk YAR Rk DVOA Rk VOA Passes Yards EYds TD Catch

Rate FUM

A.Gates SD 371 1 370 1 79.5% 1 79.3% 65 782 1,169 10 77% 0

R.Gronkowski NE 249 2 243 2 53.2% 3 51.9% 59 546 888 10 71% 1

J.Witten DAL 216 3 220 3 18.9% 15 19.5% 128 1002 1,162 9 73% 1

V.Davis SF 207 4 209 4 27.5% 10 27.8% 93 914 954 7 60% 0

A.Hernandez NE 160 5 162 5 30.8% 7 31.5% 64 563 701 6 70% 0

A.Fasano MIA 144 6 140 6 29.1% 8 27.9% 60 528 650 4 65% 0

K.Winslow TB 135 7 137 7 14.8% 16 15.1% 97 733 809 5 68% 1

T.Heap BAL 134 8 134 8 25.9% 11 26.0% 64 599 632 5 63% 1

B.Watson CLE 125 9 113 12 11.4% 20 9.6% 103 762 836 3 67% 0

J.Tamme IND 123 10 130 10 12.6% 19 13.7% 93 631 791 4 72% 0

M.Lewis JAC 123 11 132 9 13.0% 18 14.4% 88 700 781 10 66% 2

J.Dreessen HOU 120 12 121 11 28.6% 9 28.8% 54 518 545 4 67% 1

J.Finley GB 109 13 110 13 57.8% 2 58.4% 26 301 377 1 81% 0

T.Moeaki KC 98 14 97 16 13.9% 17 13.6% 72 557 604 3 65% 0

J.Graham NO 98 15 93 17 24.8% 12 23.4% 43 356 469 5 72% 1

Player Team DYAR Rk YAR Rk DVOA Rk VOA Passes Yards EYds TD Catch

Rate FUM

F.Davis WAS 97 16 99 15 40.0% 5 41.2% 30 316 383 3 70% 0

E.Moore CLE 83 17 80 19 41.5% 4 39.4% 26 323 326 1 62% 1

J.Cook TEN 82 18 88 18 23.5% 13 26.1% 45 361 401 1 64% 0

Z.Miller OAK 81 19 99 14 6.2% 22 9.3% 92 685 683 5 65% 1

B.Pettigrew DET 74 20 72 21 3.2% 24 3.0% 111 722 751 4 64% 0

T.Gonzalez ATL 72 21 68 23 2.2% 25 1.6% 109 656 799 6 64% 0

R.McMichael SD 69 22 72 20 31.1% 6 32.8% 27 221 303 2 74% 0

J.Shockey NO 65 23 71 22 8.8% 21 10.3% 59 409 484 3 69% 0

D.Clark IND 48 24 54 24 6.0% 23 7.6% 53 347 412 3 70% 0

Z.Miller JAC 44 25 49 25 19.1% 14 21.9% 26 216 236 1 77% 0

O.Daniels HOU 38 26 36 27 1.2% 26 0.7% 68 471 468 2 56% 0

H.Miller PIT 36 27 42 26 1.0% 27 2.4% 67 512 441 2 63% 1

D.Keller NYJ 31 28 28 28 -2.6% 31 -3.2% 101 687 637 5 54% 0

D.Walker SF 23 29 24 29 0.4% 28 0.7% 45 331 308 0 64% 1

D.Fells STL 19 30 20 30 -2.5% 30 -2.5% 65 391 389 2 63% 0

Player Team DYAR Rk YAR Rk DVOA Rk VOA Passes Yards EYds TD Catch

Rate FUM

A.Quarless GB 12 31 13 32 -2.0% 29 -1.8% 33 238 220 1 64% 1

K.Boss NYG 11 32 13 31 -4.9% 32 -4.4% 70 531 416 5 50% 1

V.Shiancoe MIN 6 33 1 34 -6.2% 33 -7.0% 79 530 445 2 59% 0

C.Cooley WAS 0 34 3 33 -7.3% 34 -6.9% 126 849 676 3 61% 3

B.Scaife TEN -13 35 -16 35 -11.0% 36 -11.8% 52 316 273 4 69% 2

B.Celek PHI -15 36 -19 36 -10.0% 35 -10.8% 80 511 423 4 53% 0

J.King CAR -23 37 -26 37 -17.5% 40 -18.9% 31 121 136 2 61% 0

J.Gresham CIN -33 38 -26 38 -13.0% 37 -11.9% 83 471 406 4 63% 2

D.Thomas NO -34 39 -35 41 -18.2% 41 -18.5% 46 219 190 2 65% 0

T.Scheffler DET -35 40 -35 40 -14.9% 38 -14.8% 72 378 307 1 63% 1

G.Olsen CHI -36 41 -27 39 -15.1% 39 -13.0% 70 404 310 5 59% 2

M.Bennett DAL -53 42 -57 42 -24.8% 42 -26.4% 47 262 138 0 70% 1

D.Rosario CAR -79 43 -91 44 -28.6% 43 -31.8% 58 264 139 0 55% 0

J.Carlson SEA -94 44 -85 43 -31.2% 44 -29.1% 58 318 125 1 53% 0

D.Graham DEN -133 45 -136 45 -60.7% 45 -61.9% 37 153 -80 0 49% 1

 

 

They've got Heap 8th, Watson 9th, Miller 26th, Gresham 36th. Heck, our second TE, Moore ranked ahead of both Miller and Gresham

 

Watson had 836 effective yards and a catch rate of 67%

Miller had 441 effective yards and a catch rate of 63%

 

Both guys are considered excellent blockers.

 

Why is Heath Miller better again?

 

Zombo

 

damn! nice work, zombo. but you and me both know these steeler dorks will continue to spin, spin, spin and argue in circles constantly avoiding your main topic. you've proven your point as others have previously in their own way. most of us never said ben was elite or a hof'er. we just said the guy is good and his stats prove that.

 

the reason why colt threw to him so much is because he was the only reliable person in the receiving corp. the reason why watson was reliable is because 1) he can get open. 2) he runs good routes. 3) he has good hands. there's nothing to really argue with there.

[The Gipper]

And Ben Watson has less yards and less TD's than Miller over the length of his career with ONE MORE SEASON than Miller. Argument ended. The Stats don't lie

 

Get over it.

 

 

 

The stats show that they are very similar over their careers, but that last year Watson was considerably more productive.

Maybe it simply shows that Miller's better days are behind him and that Watson is now just reaching his apex.

I wouldn't surprise me at all if Watson is again the most productive TE in the AFCN next year.

[The Gipper]

I never said anything about careers. Who was the better tight end last year? Ben Watson...no matter how you try to spin it, Watson was better! deal with it

 

If we're talking about the past, using your "logic"....Colt is better than Ben because he won more games in college right

 

 

Yea, you know, Mike Ditka and Ozzie Newsome are in the Hall of Fame as TEs, so maybe we should argue they are better.

 

And, again, the question is: How do you measure "Better"? Do you do it like they would at a combine? "Gee, this guy looks good in shorts and a T-shirt and has X 40 time and Y vertical leap and does Z bench presses"

Or do you base it on opinion? Homo "thinks" Miller is better. Does that make him better? I think I like Vanilla better than Chocolate, but someone else's opinion that says chocolate is better than vanilla, or that Watson is better than Miller is just as valuable.

No, more objective measures are needed.

How about things like "passes caught", yards gained, touchdowns, ypc. etc. etc. Of course, these stats don't take into account blocking ability which is a major component of a TEs job. Unfortuneatly I don't have any objective measures for that.

OK, then the other question is: should we take a guys entire career, or just what he has done recently?

If the proposition is: Who is the best TE in the AFCN today, right now, or for the 2011 season, perhaps it is arguable that the most recent statistics should be looked at, and not those over an entire career.

What we are trying to do is come up with some predictive measure on who will help their team most in NFL season 2011.

Isn't it fair to say that that is the only truly relevent analysis that we should be looking for?

Not who was best in 2005, or '07, or 09, or even '10?

That is like saying: The New York Giants are the best team in the NFL. Why? Because they won the SB in 2007! But that was 4 years ago.

See how all this BS goes back and forth and you will never get an answer?

 

I would bet however if you asked NFL scouts, experts, talent evaluators etc. as to who the most talented, i.e. best TE in the AFCN is, you know who they would probably say: Gresham of the Bengals. Because he has all those combine traits and measurables and because he probably has the highest upside going forward.

[The Gipper]

Yo Nickers I don't want your slack nor have I ever asked for it. It's not even a cry baby rant on Heath Miller but rather a realistic take on Ben Watson who couldn't find a team outside of the Browns to sign him.

 

 

And WTF does that matter a goddamn farthing now? I actually think that is just fu88ing great. Nobody else wanted him and we got him and he caught the 5th most passes and gained the 5th most yards in the entire NFL.

That just shows the Browns were a damn sight smarter than the rest of the league who didn't want him. Fu88 the rest of the teams in the NFL. I hope they all commit quite a few more Fu88ups like that and that the Browns pick up 4 or 5 more of the most productive players in the NFL at the rest of the league's expense.

[The Gipper]

Let's compare both cities and their respective teams in terms of recognized championships. By this I mean NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL.

 

Pittsburgh NFL Championships (6), Cleveland (13)

 

Pittsburgh MLB ( World Series) (5), Cleveland (2)

 

Pittsburgh NHL (Stanley Cups) (3), Cleveland does not have a hockey team.

 

Cleveland Cavaliers NBA titles (0), Pittsburgh does not have an NBA team.

 

So when you add it all up Pittsburgh simply dominates the city of Cleveland in terms of "just being a better and smarter city" in terms of bringing the bacon home.

 

Cleveland has 15 titles compared to 14 for Pittsburgh. Pretty lean bacon you have there. You need some fatter pigs.

[The Gipper]

Watson will not have big numbers this year because Colt McCoy is injury prone and cannot take a hit. He will get injured playing in the AC North. If you look at what he did in the BCS Game against Alabama you can see why. The guy wimped out of the biggest college game of his career after the medical staff indicated that there wasn't anything wrong with him.

 

 

Well, that all remains to be seen.

 

The guy was able to stay on the field when he was with Texas long enough to be able to win more college football game than anyone else in history. If he was so injury prone he wouldn't have been able to do that.

[Slurp and Burp]

Guppie,

 

I am talking legitimate titles for the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB

 

The Browns have won 4 NFL Championships in 1950, 1954, 1955, 1964 - not 13.

 

Ask anyone and get a clue.

 

later skater.

 

 

 

 

Cleveland has 15 titles compared to 14 for Pittsburgh. Pretty lean bacon you have there. You need some fatter pigs.

 

[The Gipper]

Guppie,

 

I am talking legitimate titles for the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB

 

The Browns have won 4 NFL Championships in 1950, 1954, 1955, 1964 - not 13.

 

Ask anyone and get a clue.

 

later skater.

 

 

Northeast Ohio has 13 Pro Football titles. Nine of them are NFL, 4 are AAFC. They are ALL recognized. Maybe you need to recognize. So read. Count the ones that say Cleveland, Akron, or Canton :

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/

 

 

[Slurp and Burp]

Guppie,

 

The Browns have won 4 NFL Championships in 1950, 1954, 1955, 1964

 

Those are the facts. Ask anyone.

 

Ok Guppie, please get a clue will ya man?

[The Gipper]

Guppie,

 

The Browns have won 4 NFL Championships in 1950, 1954, 1955, 1964

 

Those are the facts. Ask anyone.

 

Ok Guppie, please get a clue will ya man?

 

OK, right. The Browns won 4 NFL titles. But they also won 4 AAFC titles, and the Browns are only 1 of 5 teams from NEOhio to win NFL titles. If you knew dick about NFL history you would have known that.

[The Gipper]

Cleveland Cavaliers NBA titles (0), Pittsburgh does not have an NBA team.

 

 

Not only that, just to show I am fair, Pittsburgh actually does have a basketball title. The Pittsburgh Pipers won the ABA title in like 1968 I believe. See basketball title winners here:

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/

[nickers]

Cleveland Cavaliers NBA titles (0), Pittsburgh does not have an NBA team.

 

 

Not only that, just to show I am fair, Pittsburgh actually does have a basketball title. The Pittsburgh Pipers won the ABA title in like 1968 I believe. See basketball title winners here:

 

<a href="http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/" target="_blank">http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/</a>

 

Hey werent alot of those Stooler fans Cavs fans when LeBoob was here?...theyre probably all Miami Heat fans now "laughs"