Bounty Appeals

[Harry Buffalo]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/19/haystack-of-nfl-evidence-has-a-few-possible-bounty-needles/

 

I don't know if anyone has been looking into this stuff or not but its kind of crazy. The NFL release 200 pages of the "50,000" pages of evidence they said they had for the appeal hearing. This is the evidence they are using to declare that all 4 players were involved in paying for a bounty program.

 

First thing I have wrong with this is that the NFL for some reason took it upon themselves to type copies of hand written notes into microsoft word programs and then not supply the notes which they said they copied. I don't know how you can do that and claim you didn't change anything on the notes to your liking.

 

Second thing I have a problem with is that the most Fujita is linked to paying for anything (on the copied notes) is putting $2000 in for a general pool and $500 in for sacks or FF. There is nothing there that actually links him to paying for players to head hunt.

 

Third if this is to be counted as hard evidence then they are showing names of players who paid for stuff that were not punished. If this evidence is so cut and dry like the NFL is claiming it is then there should be at least 2 other players that received suspensions.

[choco]

so you have at your disposal, 0.4% of the total evidence, whats the problem again? you think the other 49,800 pages are blank?

 

you see those 200 pages and have somehow formed an opinion on whats contained int he rest, as if they gave you the biggest and juiciest of the available information. have you considered that the 0.4% of pages released are the least damaging to the players and the league, thus why we are permitted to read them?

 

There is nothing there that actually links him to paying for players to head hunt.

in any of the pages that were released, at least.

 

If this evidence is so cut and dry like the NFL is claiming it is then there should be at least 2 other players that received suspensions

holy fucking assumptions..... the NFL claimed those 200 pages were so "cut and dry"? who was suspended because they "paid for stuff"? so, fujita put money in the pool, and there's nothing that links him. yet from teh same documents, 2 others should be suspended because they "paid for stuff"?

 

WTF are you talking about? can you make any more snap judgements about a situation that has even less information available to the public than pryor trading his trinkets?

[The Gipper]

Here is my view of the situation from 2 fronts:

 

A. Unless this situation affects the Browns, I could give a rat's ass. Yea, the Browns Fujita is being suspended, but I see that as a blessing in disguise. This will give the Browns a chance to see what JimMickJack or Acho can do. Fujita's head was on the chopping block at his position anyway. This moves simply is an act of strapping him down so the Guillotine can ultimately do its work.

 

B. This is what the Player's Union bargained for. They gave the Commish absolute power in the CBA to decide matters of discipline. So Shut the fuck up. This IS matter of discipline. If these players engaged in either a bounty program to injure other players, or even if it was just a "pay for play" program where they got money for ints', fumble recoveries, big hits, etc. etc. it was still a violation of league rules to do those things and it was a matter of discipline that Goodell has the right under his authority to deal with.

You made your bed when you elected to NOT fight for an independent arbiter to decide matters of discipline. Don't complain now about the deal that you made. Now lay in that bed.

[Harry Buffalo]

so you have at your disposal, 0.4% of the total evidence, whats the problem again? you think the other 49,800 pages are blank?

 

you see those 200 pages and have somehow formed an opinion on whats contained int he rest, as if they gave you the biggest and juiciest of the available information. have you considered that the 0.4% of pages released are the least damaging to the players and the league, thus why we are permitted to read them?

 

 

in any of the pages that were released, at least.

 

 

holy fucking assumptions..... the NFL claimed those 200 pages were so "cut and dry"? who was suspended because they "paid for stuff"? so, fujita put money in the pool, and there's nothing that links him. yet from teh same documents, 2 others should be suspended because they "paid for stuff"?

 

WTF are you talking about? can you make any more snap judgements about a situation that has even less information available to the public than pryor trading his trinkets?

 

Get the corn cob out of your ass... did I already say that to you this week.

 

These 200 pages are the evidence against them. The league took those other 48,000 pages of so called evidence and threw them out, including the ledger that was leaked to the media a few weeks ago. In the 200 pages all that Fujita is linked to is paying into a general pool and for specific plays like sacks and FF. Having a reward system for legal plays is not illegal and the only thing he is linked too is paying for legal plays. At the same time there are a few others that are linked to paying for similar plays like Fujita is but they were not suspended. So why were these other players left alone while Fujita was punished. I don't think any of these guys should be suspended, not even Vilma. In America you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone committed a crime and the leagues evidence that they are using to say why these players are being punished doesn't prove that they payed into anything illegal. All the information that is being used to "prove" these players did something wrong is out for anyone to read. I'm not making a snap judgement I'm just basing an opinion on all the evidence that has been released.

[The Gipper]

Get the corn cob out of your ass... did I already say that to you this week.

 

These 200 pages are the evidence against them. The league took those other 48,000 pages of so called evidence and threw them out, including the ledger that was leaked to the media a few weeks ago. In the 200 pages all that Fujita is linked to is paying into a general pool and for specific plays like sacks and FF. Having a reward system for legal plays is not illegal and the only thing he is linked too is paying for legal plays.

 

Actually, yes, even having an "awards" system for legal plays IS illegal....ie is in contravention of both the CBA and the players contract.

 

At the same time there are a few others that are linked to paying for similar plays like Fujita is but they were not suspended. So why were these other players left alone while Fujita was punished. I don't think any of these guys should be suspended, not even Vilma.

Your opinion doesn't count, nor does mine, only Goodell's counts. Perhaps those others should be suspended. If they get a break, so be it. They aren't complaining, why should you.

 

In America you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone committed a crime and the leagues evidence that they are using to say why these players are being punished doesn't prove that they payed into anything illegal.

You are so off base on this as to not be funny. This has nothing to do with "committing a crime". This has to do with rules of work in an employer/employee situation and contractual performance, not "crime". the Constitution does not apply here.

All the information that is being used to "prove" these players did something wrong is out for anyone to read. I'm not making a snap judgement I'm just basing an opinion on all the evidence that has been released.

[clebro]

1. As much as I think Goodell should be 100% transparent, all 50,000 pages of info aren't going to contian evidence on players who are involved. If those 200 pages are what proves the players guilt, releasing more pages won't change anything. All of the coaches, front office poeple and Saints owners accepted their role and are taking their punishment. That doesn't look good for the accused players.

 

2. One team voted against the CBA because it didn't limit/define Goodell's power. The Saints weren't that team so I echo what Gipper said a few posts above. They knew what they were getting in the CBA, but didn't care until it screwed them. If you order a steak, get your steak, and then bitch to the waitress because you wanted chicken, then when you start choking on the steak you are getting what you deserve.

[BendMeOver]

I could care less for the cry-baby players. However, I don't like the direction Goodell is taking the league. I want to see hard hits, not touch football. I enjoy defensive struggles, not Madden-esqe scoring. The whole purpose of bounty-gate is to mask/divert/protect the league from concussion-gate. This country has too many lawyers and they are turning America into a coddled 3rd world country.

 

Football isn't slavery, you don't have to participate. If you are good you can make millions and have a way better life than the average joe (though it may be much shorter). The concussion lawsuit is basically this, "I squandered my millions, now I'm looking for an NFL bailout." Too freaking bad!!!

 

In terms of bounty-gate, the cheating Belicheck did was far worse and it got swept under the rug. It got swept under the rug because there wasn't really anything a lawyer could sue the NFL for, and by destroying any/all evidence of it, Goodell made sure it would stay that way.

 

PS: In response to the soon to follow obiligatory "Steeler's Whiney Pants" comment. Sooner or later (assuming the Browns become contenders within the next 10 years), Goodell will suspend a Browns player for an "illegal" hit and you'll probably lose a critical game because of it. Football's about hitting people, its not a pansy league. Players shouldn't get suspensions for hitting people between the whistles.

[The Gipper]

I could care less for the cry-baby players. However, I don't like the direction Goodell is taking the league. I want to see hard hits, not touch football. I enjoy defensive struggles, not Madden-esqe scoring. The whole purpose of bounty-gate is to mask/divert/protect the league from concussion-gate. This country has too many lawyers and they are turning America into a coddled 3rd world country.

 

Actually, it is first world nation's that become "coddled" with too many lawyers.

 

Football isn't slavery, you don't have to participate. If you are good you can make millions and have a way better life than the average joe (though it may be much shorter). The concussion lawsuit is basically this, "I squandered my millions, now I'm looking for an NFL bailout." To freaking bad!!!

 

In terms of bounty-gate, the cheating Belicheck did was far worse and it got swept under the rug. It got swept under the rug because there wasn't really anything a lawyer could sue the NFL for, and by destroying any/all evidence of it, Goodell made sure it would stay that way.

 

PS: The the obiligatory "Steeler's Whiney Pants" comment. Sooner or later (assuming the Browns become contenders within the next 10 years), Goodell will suspend a Browns player for an "illegal" hit and you'll probably lose a critical game because of it. Football's about hitting people, its not a pansy league. Players shouldn't get suspensions for hitting people between the whistles.

 

Already happened with TJ Ward.

[Thaak]

I'm convinced the NFL is trying to use the Saints as an example (the coaches accepted it) to get rid of the Bounty culture, and that the Players aren't having any of it. Its backfiring on the NFL.

 

But of course it would have been better had the NFL not created a kangaroo court to prove the case.

[clebro]

I'm convinced the NFL is trying to use the Saints as an example (the coaches accepted it) to get rid of the Bounty culture, and that the Players aren't having any of it. Its backfiring on the NFL.

 

But of course it would have been better had the NFL not created a kangaroo court to prove the case.

Goodell only knows how to make change through force. When he decides he wants to make a change he chooses a poster boy to turn into a villian. He decides the punishments, then when a player/coach appeals Goodell decides whether or not to overrule the decision he made 2 weeks earlier. He needs to hire a 3rd party accountant/lawyer firm to handle appeals and help hand out punishments. At the very least he needs to make it more clear what punishments will be and consistantly enforce them to everyone.

[The Gipper]

I'm convinced the NFL is trying to use the Saints as an example (the coaches accepted it) to get rid of the Bounty culture, and that the Players aren't having any of it. Its backfiring on the NFL.

 

But of course it would have been better had the NFL not created a kangaroo court to prove the case.

 

I don't think it has backfired AT ALL. I think about 90% of fans are right on with Goodell with what he has done.

And the "Kangaroo Court" is just what has been in place for 92 years of NFL football essentially. It is probably far less arbitrary than it has been for most of the league's history.

[The Gipper]

Goodell only knows how to make change through force. When he decides he wants to make a change he chooses a poster boy to turn into a villian. He decides the punishments, then when a player/coach appeals Goodell decides whether or not to overrule the decision he made 2 weeks earlier. He needs to hire a 3rd party accountant/lawyer firm to handle appeals and help hand out punishments. At the very least he needs to make it more clear what punishments will be and consistantly enforce them to everyone.

 

Why? The facts of every case is different. Why should the punishment be the same?

Should he have given a Fujita a one year suspension because that is what Vilma got?

There may be exigent or mitigating circumstances in one case that call for a lesser penalty than is present in another player's case whose violation may be more egregious...ergo punishable to a higher degree.

Also, I would venture to say that Goodell absolutely already uses the services of attorneys/accountants or whatever other professional he needs to count on to decide these cases....yet ultimately HE is the final authority with the final say in the punishment.

[clebro]

Why? The facts of every case is different. Why should the punishment be the same?

Should he have given a Fujita a one year suspension because that is what Vilma got?

There may be exigent or mitigating circumstances in one case that call for a lesser penalty than is present in another player's case whose violation may be more egregious...ergo punishable to a higher degree.

Also, I would venture to say that Goodell absolutely already uses the services of attorneys/accountants or whatever other professional he needs to count on to decide these cases....yet ultimately HE is the final authority with the final say in the punishment.

Not that punishments should be the same, just that he needs to be overall more consistant. And I was moreso talking about fines for hits. Goodell doesn't fine the actual hit as much as he fines the injure (if any) resulting from the hit. The guy who hit Boldin was fined $120,000..... If Boldin was uninjured can you honestly that guy would have been fined as much? If the hit was that bad, it shouldn't matter if an injury occured or not. Things like being a repeat offender should be taken into account. No case is the same so making an Excell chart with exact details/numbers isn't possible. But if he can be a little more consistant players, coaches and fans can atleast start to understand the frame he punishes in.

 

He may use 3rd parties to help them (although I've never heard that), but Goodell will do what he wants regaurdless. The NBA draft is coordinated by an accounting firm seperate from the NBA. Goodell should do something like that with the appeals process. Goodell can be judge, jury and punisher, but atleast let someone else handle appeals.

 

Goodell is trying to change the culture and hands out more punsihment for on and off field behavior than ever before. What worked to hold the standard in the past clearly isn't working to change the standard now. As Thaak put it the "kangeroo court" isn't reasonable. Players are already regretting their CBA votes from just a year ago.

[The Gipper]

Not that punishments should be the same, just that he needs to be overall more consistant. And I was moreso talking about fines for hits. Goodell doesn't fine the actual hit as much as he fines the injure (if any) resulting from the hit. The guy who hit Boldin was fined $120,000..... If Boldin was uninjured can you honestly that guy would have been fined as much? If the hit was that bad, it shouldn't matter if an injury occured or not. Things like being a repeat offender should be taken into account. No case is the same so making an Excell chart with exact details/numbers isn't possible. But if he can be a little more consistant players, coaches and fans can atleast start to understand the frame he punishes in.

 

He may use 3rd parties to help them (although I've never heard that), but Goodell will do what he wants regaurdless. The NBA draft is coordinated by an accounting firm seperate from the NBA. Goodell should do something like that with the appeals process. Goodell can be judge, jury and punisher, but atleast let someone else handle appeals.

 

Goodell is trying to change the culture and hands out more punsihment for on and off field behavior than ever before. What worked to hold the standard in the past clearly isn't working to change the standard now. As Thaak put it the "kangeroo court" isn't reasonable. Players are already regretting their CBA votes from just a year ago.

 

When you become NFL commissioner you can do what you want. From my perspective I think Goodell has been fair....and consistent. You know if you screw up he will hammer you.

Sorry. The system is set up for the Commish to be the guy to be responsible for this.

If they don't like it, find a different head of their union. He negotiated the deal and they all accepted it.

The prisons in this country are full of people who thought their judge was too harsh, too inconsistent, unfair in the way they handled their case.

And all of their appeals to an independent appellate court are about as equally successful as the appeals that are made to Goodell.

[ballpeen]

Goodell is the best comish in all of the sports. I like him. He is doing the job he is supposed to do.

 

 

A commissioner is supposed to be more like Judge "Kennisaw Mountain" Ladis than the wimp David Stern....what a joke he is.

 

 

 

Iron fist is my attitude....Goodell hammers everybody.....owners, players, teams...

[Canton Mike]

Goodell is the best comish in all of the sports. I like him. He is doing the job he is supposed to do.

 

 

A commissioner is supposed to be more like Judge "Kennisaw Mountain" Ladis than the wimp David Stern....what a joke he is.

 

 

 

Iron fist is my attitude....Goodell hammers everybody.....owners, players, teams...

 

Yep! The Miami fiasco absolutely BEGGED for Patty AND his "punks" to be investigated, yet Stern wouldn't do so. He has also failed to look at the lopsided officiating in the Boston & OKC series against Miami. Goodell had the kahunas to set a POWER (Saints) on it's ear.

My dear departed Dad was one hell of a father & manager. Two things I remember well:

1) When I complained of an unfair, too strict punishment, he said, "Yeah, but you won't try that again, will you?"

2) When I went into management, he told me that if I wanted to find problem areas, look at the bottom AND top producers, and also the "common denominator" & he told me if I was the common denominator, I'd damn well better change some of the things I do.

Goodell, like Dad, has the balls to not look the other way just because of top production...It ain't always honest.

I like Goodell!

Mike

[clebro]

When you become NFL commissioner you can do what you want. From my perspective I think Goodell has been fair....and consistent. You know if you screw up he will hammer you.

Sorry. The system is set up for the Commish to be the guy to be responsible for this.

If they don't like it, find a different head of their union. He negotiated the deal and they all accepted it.

The prisons in this country are full of people who thought their judge was too harsh, too inconsistent, unfair in the way they handled their case.

And all of their appeals to an independent appellate court are about as equally successful as the appeals that are made to Goodell.

The Patriots cheated for 7 years and only got a fine (The biggest allowed, but hardly pocket change for Kraft)and lost a pick. One pick and some change to have an advantage for 7 years and to 3 Super Bowls is hardly punishments. Goodell hammers the Saints (only because of the concussion suits), but literally destroys the Spygate evidence.

 

Like I said before, the guy who hit Boldin got a $120,000 fine because Boldin had a broken face. You probably remember that hit that LB McClain from the Ravens put on the Steelers Heath Miller. McClain was only fined $40,000. If Miller had more than a concussion (broken neck, paralyzed for life) McClain would have been suspended for the rest of the season. But since the hit only resulted in a concussion Goodell hands down a $40,000 fine. And if Miller got up unhurt, Goodell probably would have given a $15,000-25,000 fine.

 

As I said before, 31 teams voted for the CBA so 31 teams have to be happy with Goodell's power. That has never been in dispute.

 

But the comparison to the court system is a bad example because the accused actually get to see the evidence against them, punishments are clearly defenied by law and the appeals court won't be the some guy who sentenced you 2 weeks earlier. Also juries decide guilt, not the prosecution.

[The Gipper]

Goodell is the best comish in all of the sports. I like him. He is doing the job he is supposed to do.

 

 

A commissioner is supposed to be more like Judge "Kennisaw Mountain" Ladis than the wimp David Stern....what a joke he is.

 

Don't you mean Bud Selig?

 

 

 

Iron fist is my attitude....Goodell hammers everybody.....owners, players, teams...